Personality Cafe banner
21 - 36 of 36 Posts
Well I'm somewhat confused. I believe myself to be an INFJ for several reasons and I'm fairly sure of this, however after reading the descriptions of Fe and Fi I don't really identify with any of it. I am a emotionally turbulent person but I try to not let it show, I am extremely emotional and value solitude, yet I'm dependant on the approval and love of others. I claim to hate people but at the same time there is nothing else that interests me more than people, truly I love people but they hurt me. I try to restrain my feelings but at the same time I want to throw it in the face of others. When I'm feeling something, it is VERY evident on my face and body language, I am wholly unaware of this, I can't control it even if I try to. I'm like an open book yet nobody knows me. I have ideals but I find it incredibly selfish and plainly stupid to repress ideas from the outside. Shouldn't an inner ideal be based on some form of universal truth, and shouldn't that truth be easier to find with the input from the outside world? Yet my ideals are what compose me and I wouldn't give them up just because someone would disagree. If I don't have my ideals, I don't have anything. I value integrity and uniqueness over all else yet I can fall into a state of mind when all my actions are based on how I think others will percieve me. I am very selfish yet I repress myself and live for others. What the fuck am I? Fe or Fi or Fo or Fa none of it makes any sense at all.
 
Well I'm somewhat confused. I believe myself to be an INFJ for several reasons and I'm fairly sure of this, however after reading the descriptions of Fe and Fi I don't really identify with any of it. I am a emotionally turbulent person but I try to not let it show, I am extremely emotional and value solitude, yet I'm dependant on the approval and love of others. I claim to hate people but at the same time there is nothing else that interests me more than people, truly I love people but they hurt me. I try to restrain my feelings but at the same time I want to throw it in the face of others. When I'm feeling something, it is VERY evident on my face and body language, I am wholly unaware of this, I can't control it even if I try to. I'm like an open book yet nobody knows me. I have ideals but I find it incredibly selfish and plainly stupid to repress ideas from the outside. Shouldn't an inner ideal be based on some form of universal truth, and shouldn't that truth be easier to find with the input from the outside world? Yet my ideals are what compose me and I wouldn't give them up just because someone would disagree. If I don't have my ideals, I don't have anything. I value integrity and uniqueness over all else yet I can fall into a state of mind when all my actions are based on how I think others will percieve me. I am very selfish yet I repress myself and live for others. What the fuck am I? Fe or Fi or Fo or Fa none of it makes any sense at all.
Truth is, they think differently. They come to conclusions and learn in very different ways. This could be helpful to you, I made this post earlier for a different thread:



As you get older and more experienced, you learn more ways of doing things. These types measure tendencies and what is "normal" for you. Your default state, as it were. Below is described how the INFJ (top) and the INFP (bottom) in 4 steps applies their functions in the process of interacting with the world. Bear in mind that prior experience affects the model below, meaning that if you have already learned something you may skip thinking about that thing and apply what you already know, or look at it in a new way, so the process can change from thing to thing. This model is MOST apparent when learning something *totally brand new* that you have never learned before, and that you know nothing similar to, as you will likely default to this process without thinking about it. Think back to when you last learned something really profound or memorable as you read the below.

Step 1:
"INJs' first step and primary focus is using their iNtuition (N) inside their heads (introverted) to understand how Conceptual Principles apply universally as Trends. They use their Heads-up Display to visualize conceptual information and organize it into universally applicable pictures and patterns.
We shorthand this as: Principles via Ni (introverted iNtuition)."
VS
"IFPs' first step and primary focus is using their Feelings (F) inside their heads (introverted) to understand the Meaning of gathered Data and Details. They use their Heads-up Display microscope to feel and experience the power and importance of even the minutest detail.
Shorthand: Data via Fi (introverted Feeling)."

Step 2:
"IFJs' second step of cognition is applying the Principles they came to understand in Step One to individual situations to see the Meaning of Actions by directing their Feelings (F) outside themselves (extraverted), in order to find which Actions will bring the most Meaning to the World.
Shorthand: Action via Fe (extraverted Feeling)."
VS.
"INPs' second step is applying the Data, Details and Conclusions they reached in Step One, to Observing people's Motivations and character by directing their iNtuition (N) outside themselves (extraverted) in order to make Conceptual pictures of individuals and how people work in general.
Shorthand: Observation via Ne (extraverted iNtuition)."

Step 3:
"IFJs' third step of cognition is drawing Data and Details from the Consequences of Actions they made in Step Two, in the form of Thoughts (T) inside their heads (introverted), in order to make Useful Conclusions.
Shorthand: Data via Ti (introverted Thinking)."
vs.
"INPs' third step is applying their Observations of people from Step Two, to finding patterns inside their heads (introverted) from the things they've Experienced with their five Senses (S), to decide on courses of Action based on Linear scenarios and general Consequences.
Shorthand: Action via Si (introverted Sensing)."

Step 4:
"INJs' fourth step and weakest function is applying the specific Data and Conclusions they came to in Step Three to Observing people's Motivations by reaching out (extraverted) and Experiencing people with their five Senses (S).
Shorthand: Observation via Se (extraverted Sensing)."
Vs.
"IFPs' fourth step and weakest function of cognition is using the Consequences of Actions they made in Step Three to see universal Principles, by directing their Thoughts (T) outside themselves (extraverted), in order to make Use of the world.
Shorthand: Principles via Te (extraverted Thinking)."

Further detail - and the breakdown of the other types - can be found with my source at the following: A Little Bit of Personality: The Cognition Process in Stick Figures
 
Honestly, that doesn't help me at all. The only part of it that I understood was the Step 1 INFJ, which I identify alot with. The rest just leaves me confused and makes me ask this: how do you KNOW this?
The last time I learned/was told something new it went like this: First I tried to figure out if it makes sense at all and if the informations is reliable. Secondly, I try to gather a personal understanding of the matter as to more deeply analyze it by shifting perspectives/applying it to hypothetical situations to see how it works out/figuring out whether it's an universal rule or a general occurence, and how it applies to me and the rest of the world. Thirdly, I try to come to a conclusion, either if it's false/true, whether the truth value is important at all and whether me believeing it or not makes any difference. If it doesn't, I leave it as an open question, meaning I am open to the possibility but don't fully adopt it into my worldview.
 
Honestly, that doesn't help me at all. The only part of it that I understood was the Step 1 INFJ, which I identify alot with. The rest just leaves me confused and makes me ask this: how do you KNOW this?
The last time I learned/was told something new it went like this: First I tried to figure out if it makes sense at all and if the informations is reliable. Secondly, I try to gather a personal understanding of the matter as to more deeply analyze it by shifting perspectives/applying it to hypothetical situations to see how it works out/figuring out whether it's an universal rule or a general occurence, and how it applies to me and the rest of the world. Thirdly, I try to come to a conclusion, either if it's false/true, whether the truth value is important at all and whether me believeing it or not makes any difference. If it doesn't, I leave it as an open question, meaning I am open to the possibility but don't fully adopt it into my worldview.
How do i know? It's from the link I posted at the bottom of my first post.

That sounds exactly like the INFP model, actually. This is not to say that you are somehow wrong on being INFJ; the only person that can truly type you is yourself. However, as you seem confused by what I posted, here is a clarification in my own words and my reasoning that you fit the INFP model.

INFP first determines value according to how they feel about it, though it is more complex than that. By checking reliability and seeing if it makes sense, you are undergoing the process of evaluating, and you appear to be doing so from a standpoint of how you relate to the data first. That's Introverted Feeling.

INFPs next determine the effectiveness of the data through Extraverted Intuition, which involves connecting the dots and examining the inter-relatedness of things. By doing this, the INFP come to understand other people or situations and how they fit into the world in order to relate those objects or ideas to where they fit within the world.

INFPs then follow up this analysis with Action, which they execute in accordance with Introverted Sensing. They do this by looking at their own experiences and memories as well as the impressions they have of things that exist in the real world; this means that they perceive the nature of an object or idea or other part of the world, and replicate that thing within their mind as they are deciding what it does and what it is for. When Si and Ne work together, a person is concerned both with what IS and WAS as well as what COULD BE. So the decision comes from your understanding of what IS, fed by the information gained in steps one and two the value you see it as having couple with the potential uses that you see. Highly undeveloped INFPs may sometimes skip this step.

INFPs finish the cognitive process with Extraverted Thinking, which is the application of principles that you believe will work within the objective world. This is the application of logic and a rational process to achieve a result. As the INFP does this last, they have already taken action by this point; this means that Te is being used to learn from mistakes and to generate a framework that will work for this sort of situation in the future. Undeveloped INFPs may skip this step.

Does that help at all?
 
An individual of this type really only sees himself and his own life as reflected in his relationships with other people and in their opinions of himself. Hence he is very susceptible to praise and criticism. Encouragement will very quickly intensify and extend a reaction of feeling, while a comment or an objection which cannot be refuted may exert an exceedingly depressing influence on his spirits. Especially where some uncertainty might exist in regard to agreement between his own views and those generally current does he feel it absolutely necessary to prove to the world that his own feelings are right. While under the influence of powerful feelings, such people are able to exert great influence in their environment, particularly if they find support for their feelings in followers and onlookers. With most people of this type, however, feelings are expressed less in impressive actions than in the creation of a harmonious atmosphere. In their relationship with those around them they do their best to insist on friendliness and fair play, and they are usually conscientious and orderly even in small matters. Since they make similar demands on others, they frequently come into conflict with others, who do not always see the same necessity. Their punctiliousness may degenerate into pettiness, and occasionally such people may become very tiresome and pernickety about details. They will "go on" endlessly about something they feel to be wrong, and since they attach universal validity to the judgments of their feeling, they cannot stop trying to convince others. As a result, they may be tiring to those around them, in spite of their kindness and friendliness. In their persistence we see again the significance of will for this type. They may give themselves up with extraordinary self sacrifice and devotion to those whom they love, and to the purpose to which they have set themselves.

Story of my life! :shocked:
 
I find myself looking for connection as wel despite possesing Fi, or at least an idea where I stand mentally and emotionally with the environment around me...

It is just that, being introverted it works differently in this way then an extrovert would experience wherein I get a sense introverted feelings remained unexamined and perhaps, are often a source of discomfort, and often I find many seek to avoid them.

I suppose thus you become associated with being a Debbir Downer.
 
My INFP friend always thinks I am fake and calls me a people pleaser. But if creating harmony and making others happy are a true self value for me, in that case, I am not fake at all, I am being true to myself as if the group has reached an agreement and everyone is happy, then I am truly happy.

I am thinking why what I truly want has always to be important? It is only important for a Fi user but it might not be that important for a Fe user. What if I don't quite care what I want sometimes, when with a group, I just want to get along, why that's being fake? Since I genuinely just want to get along.

At the same time, I am thinking just because someone insists in having her own way different from the group, why would it make her selfish in nature since she's not taking away your freedom of choice?

Personally, two strong Fi users or two strong Ti users probably won't get along well unless their personal values/logics are magically aligned. But Fi can do well with Fe, and Fe can do well with Fe, IMO.
 
My INFP friend always thinks I am fake and calls me a people pleaser. But if creating harmony and making others happy are a true self value for me, in that case, I am not fake at all, I am being true to myself as if the group has reached an agreement and everyone is happy, then I am truly happy.

I am thinking why what I truly want has always to be important? It is only important for a Fi user but it might not be that important for a Fe user. What if I don't quite care what I want sometimes, when with a group, I just want to get along, why that's being fake? Since I genuinely just want to get along.

At the same time, I am thinking just because someone insists in having her own way different from the group, why would it make her selfish in nature since she's not taking away your freedom of choice?

Personally, two strong Fi users or two strong Ti users probably won't get along well unless their personal values/logics are magically aligned. But Fi can do well with Fe, and Fe can do well with Fe, IMO.
I'm curious why she would use 'fake', that's interesting. Could it be possible she's judging you for what she thinks is 'lying' to create that harmony, and that's something I'm seeing in your subtext? That would make sense if your main defense when she askes you if you really believe the things you're saying is it's to 'make them happy'. (My mother is an INFJ, tons of experience with this personally) Unfortunately, that is the definition of people pleaser, when you value someone's feelings over your own beliefs. It's up to you to justify to yourself that it's not a bad thing, because it's not when used responsibly. Which, since INFJ (if you subscribe to John Bebee, which I do) has Fe as their Parent function, I completely believe that you're using it responsibly.

It's more likely she's just unable to see the bigger picture using your logic, because INFPs have Ni Trickster and Ti Demon, which makes it very hard for them to put together correct logic when someone isn't telling them what's right or wrong. Be patient with your INFP friend, and don't insult her or her intelligence. She might be seeing something off about the way you're 'executing' you're not. INFJs do have self awareness issues sometimes. Lying is a lot bigger deal than you think it is, would be my personal guess. It's a trend I see with with INFJs, they fall into deception very easily and justify it away with their truly good intentions, thinking the ends justify the means. It usually doesn't. People can get hurt in ways even you aren't detecting. Don't fall into that trap, and I'm sure you'll be fine, hun. <3
 
  • Like
Reactions: Llyralen
I'm curious why she would use 'fake', that's interesting.
@stoicismINFJ

To me this is the classic Fi and Fe clash. Fi sees Fe users as fake and insincere and Fe usually see Fi as selfish and childish.

Fi users expect individuals to understand their own feelings and make decisions based on them. Fi wants to support friends’ Fi decisions, wants to say “Your inner harmony is important, and if all the world hates you. It’s important for you to do what you think is right (that doesn’t violate other’s values). I’m that kind of friend who will support your right to act on your conscience through thick and thin, no matter what other people think, but I won’t go against my own values, of course. ”

Fe users (I believe) expect others to see the group harmony as a higher value and is adept at figuring out other people’s reasons and feelings and often subjugate their own to create harmony in the group.

To Fi the reaction to Fe can be: “I was trying to support you and show my loyalty, but you just made it so there is nothing to support. How do I support you or even know you as a person if you can’t reliably do what you yourself think is right independent of others? First you choose this, then something opposite depending on who you are with. Who are you? Do you even know?”

To Fe when the Fi user is doing their thing, Fe is unable sometimes to create the harmony they wanted to, and will see the Fi user’s decisions and sometimes feelings as childish, annoying and disruptive to group harmony. “Why can’t you just act like a grownup and realize everyone will be happier with this other decision. Do you know you are making things difficult? You suffer from I-strain. Why do you always think it’s about you all the time?”

So it’s just a matter of where you think morals and feelings and harmony come from mainly, inside or outside.

Actually two Fi users can get along great as long as a common threshold for values has been made as each care about supporting the other’s independent views and speaks the same language for doing so. “Go ahead and feel that thing only you feel, I am so glad to understand and be privileged to know your strong feelings.” That kind of thing.

I think both Fe and Fi can learn to appreciate the other function, or not. I’ve seen some really strongly adverse people to the opposite function. This is where understanding cognitive functions can help out some.
 
@stoicismINFJ

To me this is the classic Fi and Fe clash. Fi sees Fe users as fake and insincere and Fe usually see Fi as selfish and childish.

Fi users expect individuals to understand their own feelings and make decisions based on them. Fi wants to support friends’ Fi decisions, wants to say “Your inner harmony is important, and if all the world hates you. It’s important for you to do what you think is right (that doesn’t violate other’s values). I’m that kind of friend who will support your right to act on your conscience through thick and thin, no matter what other people think, but I won’t go against my own values, of course. ”

Fe users (I believe) expect others to see the group harmony as a higher value and is adept at figuring out other people’s reasons and feelings and often subjugate their own to create harmony in the group.
As Fe user I can say that Fi is makes more sense. Fe is represented by liquid while Fi is solid. Individualism is better than group values. Groups tend to become so generic that they fail to include anybody properly. There is a point where compromise becomes so dominant that nobody gets what they wanted. I am INFJ and would like all to get along, but realistically I know that is a lie, you can't make everybody happy. The entire group needs to fall in together. That is tiresome and unlikely. Especially since your group will be diverse when it comes to personalities. They're not all gonna be Fe users.

It is annoying to deal with INFPs because Fi leads to stubbornness but at the same time I admire that value. I know I can depend on Fi to remain solid throughout a deal, relationship etc. Fe is not reliable. I mean, it is in its existence, but the person behind it isn't, because it is constantly influenced by the ever changing whims of Fe.

It's probably why I have issues getting along with other INFJs. I get Fe, but I lose interest when I see someone running around exhausting themselves to please the group. Call me intellectually lazy, but I rather deal with a Fi user, they tend to be less worried about trying to please everybody. I'd say Fi is more honest. And I don't hate myself either. I temper my Fe and limit it to not become the "group zombie". But then again I am much better at 1 on 1 than groups so... eh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Llyralen
As Fe user I can say that Fi is makes more sense. Fe is represented by liquid while Fi is solid. Individualism is better than group values. Groups tend to become so generic that they fail to include anybody properly. There is a point where compromise becomes so dominant that nobody gets what they wanted. I am INFJ and would like all to get along, but realistically I know that is a lie, you can't make everybody happy. The entire group needs to fall in together. That is tiresome and unlikely. Especially since your group will be diverse when it comes to personalities. They're not all gonna be Fe users.

It is annoying to deal with INFPs because Fi leads to stubbornness but at the same time I admire that value. I know I can depend on Fi to remain solid throughout a deal, relationship etc. Fe is not reliable. I mean, it is in its existence, but the person behind it isn't, because it is constantly influenced by the ever changing whims of Fe.

It's probably why I have issues getting along with other INFJs. I get Fe, but I lose interest when I see someone running around exhausting themselves to please the group. Call me intellectually lazy, but I rather deal with a Fi user, they tend to be less worried about trying to please everybody. I'd say Fi is more honest. And I don't hate myself either. I temper my Fe and limit it to not become the "group zombie". But then again I am much better at 1 on 1 than groups so... eh.
Another thing that struck me on my own post is how Fi just expects to “go it” alone, make decisions alone. That aloneness is something we feel from the get-go. But our joy comes from truly finding connection in this world, which for me I consider fairly hard to come by although tiny connections daily can keep me moving along with positivity. I’m pretty sure this is experienced differently by Fe and unfolds differently from feeling harmony to later some disharmony and eventual love of individuality, but I’m unsure.
 
This is interesting because my closest friend is an INFJ too and while he has very strong values and opinions on things like you do, he is also a lot more tolerant of outside / cultural / situational perspectives than I feel I ever will be even if he doesn’t feel the same way. Like you, it’s much easier for him to say “I feel / think differently, but I can see why so and so does what they do.” I have a much harder time using statements like these, for me it’s “I feel, the end” most of the time.

Of course, being a dominant Fi user (and a very rebellious, strong-minded one), the highly personal lens of Fi when viewing people and things is what comes naturally to me. I can imagine, but can’t really take myself out of my own shoes and step into someone else’s to the point where I literally feel everything from their perspective unless I’ve had that same experience.

I’m not as outwardly expressive as my friend with Fe, I prefer words of affirmation that count rather than generic praise. I also prefer to show that I care through actions, by helping people during their time of need. I prefer to do what’s impactful (of course, I show that I care through smaller gestures too) over what I feel are generic definitions of caring for someone. I respond to crises, I am invigorated by the idea of helping someone through a major obstacle especially when it aligns with my personal values.

Although I take my shirt off for someone I’ve let into my life (and to a great degree), I’m on average much more oblivious to, or willfully opposed to the “collective” and actions that sacrifice personal identity in order to benefit that “collective.” This makes me a devil in the eyes of those who don’t know me well because I stubbornly resist attempts to be controlled, attempts from authority and external influences to change me or get me to fall in line.

I am especially repelled by the idea of the “common good” or “greater good”. I fear it when authorities invoke it, or when groups of people use it to justify their actions. To me it’s more an issue of differing loyalties, of overlapping and conflicting interests. “The greater good” is too flimsy and loose of an idea for me to believe in, I am loyal to certain people, I lean towards certain causes, and choose to conduct my life in a way that brings me fulfillment and share some of that fulfillment with a select few others. If everyone tended to their own garden, the world would be a better place.

Socially selfish, selectively / intimately giving. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact I feel the opposite to be far worse.
 
I also believe Fi-Fe differences are more easily worked with when there’s enough shared VALUES, not just certain tastes and preferences, to begin with. For example, when I’m with Fe users in my life, whether it’s an ENTP or INFJ, we can get along despite differences because we have enough common values and general attitudes towards life. And I don’t always get along with Fi users either. I could see a less well-developed INTJ / ENTJ giving me trouble because we have such different approaches even towards the same things, but from my experience while I readily admit “it’s just how I feel”, it takes a lot longer for them to realize that they are driven by personal values too.
 
21 - 36 of 36 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top