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I have been dealing with this extreme guilt feel.

In school, especialy elementary, I used to get bullied - not physicaly, but more verbaly. I have been execluded from the group, being unliked or disliked by others, made fun of for personal stuff, and most importantly, my parents and relatives dont care, when I explain my father the entire story, he shows 0 empathy and goes to tell me that It's my fault for all of this without evidence, blaming it on my poor social skills or my behaviour, which ironicaly are caused by how I was being treatened by others.

And that's pretty much it, I just deal with this trauma, there are my own thoughts that just haunt me for no reason, claiming that I'm narcissist, that I'm passive-aggressive asshole, that I'm just some idiot playing the martyr/victim, that I can't admit It's all my fault when in reality I did not do anything to earn being genuinely guilty.

This projects on my combative attitude, PerC forum included (Surely you seen my recent threads to get the idea), because people around me seem to unable to show any empathy for this trauma, and therefore I feel being hurt, that my feelings are insignificant to others, that I'm just worthless human being to everyone, It's very frustrating and enraging to deal with.

This has been lasting for years now by the way.
 
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Discussion Starter #2
Please, anyone?

Honestly It's killing me off, I really want to hear your advices on this.
 

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I'm not sure what thread you are talking about, I haven't read it.
But most people do have empathy for victims of bullying.
I have been physically and verbally bullied for four years and people show me a lot of empathy for it when I tell my story. The bullying was also a big reason for my mental illness to develop.
Also many other victims get empathy.

People who use being a victim as an excuse for bad behavior, being mean or something usually get no empathy though.

I feel like you project your fathers opinion on to yourself and others. Maybe the worst truama was how your father reacted and not the bullying itself (which obviously was horrible, too, of course).
 

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That's a lot of negative for a kid to experience but since it's been so long and you haven't managed to process this trauma on your own why don't you go to a therapist to help you? This type of thing takes work to resolve and to stop caring about your relatives' approval which seems to be an issue here.
 

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I don't have advices, just know that you're not to blame for that.

Unless you find someone able to provide support, wether a friend or a professional, for your problems. About friends, just be careful to not abuse from their help, just a warning.

I really don't see what else you could need other than a psy. Did you ever saw one? I don't remember if you did it. If you're afraid of that, find places to socialize, there will be no miracles.

There're no psychological technic that I know of other than just emotional care from someone else.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
People who use being a victim as an excuse for bad behavior, being mean or something usually get no empathy though.

I feel like you project your fathers opinion on to yourself and others. Maybe the worst truama was how your father reacted and not the bullying itself (which obviously was horrible, too, of course).
Thanks, never knew that, I try my best not to give in to projections.

I'm not sure what thread you are talking about, I haven't read it.
https://www.personalitycafe.com/venting/1330023-anime-trash-xd-western-cartooons-aree-bebetter.html

And

https://www.personalitycafe.com/trends-forum/1326325-why-men-long-hair-such-issue-others.html

Most of the times I feel like I have to fight for my identity, that others just simply dislike me for oblivious reasons.
 

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Thanks, never knew that, I try my best not to give in to projections.



https://www.personalitycafe.com/venting/1330023-anime-trash-xd-western-cartooons-aree-bebetter.html

And

https://www.personalitycafe.com/trends-forum/1326325-why-men-long-hair-such-issue-others.html

Most of the times I feel like I have to fight for my identity, that others just simply dislike me for oblivious reasons.
I don't know. You seem very aggressive and very reactive to small, insignificant things. I feel like 100 people could write how much they love anime or men with long hair, but if one person says something negative you would hard-focus on that. Your opening posts already have that negative, aggressive energy.
You are writing as if 100 are standing around you and attack you (verbally). But nothing has happened yet, but I know it did in the past for you.

What I marked there is very visible, yes. Some people will always until the end of all days say dumb, stupid shit. It's your choice whether you want to put so much energy into it or not. I know you feel like you need to defend yourself and others, but I feel like you can chill a bit more and let things slide.
Most negativity grows if you focus on it and dies if you ignore it.

But: Of course I get it! Especially after getting bullied you get hyper-sensitive to stuff like that.
 

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I have been dealing with this extreme guilt feel.

In school, especialy elementary, I used to get bullied - not physicaly, but more verbaly. I have been execluded from the group, being unliked or disliked by others, made fun of for personal stuff, and most importantly, my parents and relatives dont care, when I explain my father the entire story, he shows 0 empathy and goes to tell me that It's my fault for all of this without evidence, blaming it on my poor social skills or my behaviour, which ironicaly are caused by how I was being treatened by others.

And that's pretty much it, I just deal with this trauma, there are my own thoughts that just haunt me for no reason, claiming that I'm narcissist, that I'm passive-aggressive asshole, that I'm just some idiot playing the martyr/victim, that I can't admit It's all my fault when in reality I did not do anything to earn being genuinely guilty.

This projects on my combative attitude, PerC forum included (Surely you seen my recent threads to get the idea), because people around me seem to unable to show any empathy for this trauma, and therefore I feel being hurt, that my feelings are insignificant to others, that I'm just worthless human being to everyone, It's very frustrating and enraging to deal with.

This has been lasting for years now by the way.
we could all back you up and invalidate what they say , and validate you - but that wouldnt help long term.

if your close family and people who *supposedly* care about your best interest , are saying you have these traits - why not consider it and slowly come to accepting these truths?

i dont know YOU , but i do know that type 3w2's do have trait narcissism , they can be passive-aggressive , and with the w2 can slip into victim mode. i also know ENFJ's are extremely empathetic but are lost in it , reacting emotionally and not (normally) thinking logically about a situation, (inferior Ti).

imo , healing is the exact opposite of pretending like 'shortcomings' dont exist ... healing is learning to accept both positive and negative qualities... owning them , and integrating them into who you are as a full being. once you do that, only you get to decide what are 'good' or 'bad' traits.
 

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That's a lot of negative for a kid to experience
Looks like a normal stuff in Eastern European school. Physical bullying and other random crap is way worse. In my school it was normal to fight every week, constantly disrupt classes, once a month do something "special" (like throwing some student's PE clothes from 3rd floor into mud) and pretty much every year there were conflicts with police.
 

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Looks like a normal stuff in Eastern European school. Physical bullying and other random crap is way worse. In my school it was normal to fight every week, constantly disrupt classes, once a month do something "special" (like throwing some student's PE clothes from 3rd floor into mud) and pretty much every year there were conflicts with police.
Something being normal doesn't make it less traumatising. It once was normal to torture and kill jews, gays or black people. And physical bullying is not worse than verbal bullying. It's different, that's all.
Some people are perfectly fine after getting verbally bullied for years. Some are pefectly fine after getting physically bullied for years.
Others go from mental hospital to mental hospital until they kill themselves. While of course the details of what happened are generally pointing to worse or better mental health consequences, that's not important in a conversation with an individual. It's important for prorities regarding prevention, for science, but the only thing that matters in a conversation with an individual is his own pain. Please don't invalidate someone's pain.
That's something many people do. And it makes people suffer much, much more. Because they feel like they don't have the right to feel pain, to complain, to cry, to get help. So they start cutting, do drugs, or let themselves develop severe issues. Because they hope that then they will feel they have the right to get help and feel pain.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
we could all back you up and invalidate what they say , and validate you - but that wouldnt help long term.

if your close family and people who *supposedly* care about your best interest , are saying you have these traits - why not consider it and slowly come to accepting these truths?

i dont know YOU , but i do know that type 3w2's do have trait narcissism , they can be passive-aggressive , and with the w2 can slip into victim mode. i also know ENFJ's are extremely empathetic but are lost in it , reacting emotionally and not (normally) thinking logically about a situation, (inferior Ti).

imo , healing is the exact opposite of pretending like 'shortcomings' dont exist ... healing is learning to accept both positive and negative qualities... owning them , and integrating them into who you are as a full being. once you do that, only you get to decide what are 'good' or 'bad' traits.
I mean sure, but what would be the reason to invalidate my own feelings?
 

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Maybe look inside yourself instead of focusing on everyone else. Your trauma is inside of you, regardless of the external factors that caused it. It's something you will have to work on, mostly by yourself and possibly with the help of a professional.

In terms of people bullying you, fuck 'em. Why would you want to associate with them anyway if they're nasty people?

And finally, lashing out makes sense as a reaction to pent up anger, but it doesn't mean it's always justified. I would try to remind myself that treating people with empathy, respect and patience is important, otherwise you'll become just like the people that hurt you.
 

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Something being normal doesn't make it less traumatizing. It once was normal to torture and kill jews, gays or black people. And physical bullying is not worse than verbal bullying. It's different, that's all.
Some people are perfectly fine after getting verbally bullied for years. Some are perfectly fine after getting physically bullied for years.
Others go from mental hospital to mental hospital until they kill themselves. While of course the details of what happened are generally pointing to worse or better mental health consequences, that's not important in a conversation with an individual. It's important for prorities regarding prevention, for science, but the only thing that matters in a conversation with an individual is his own pain. Please don't invalidate someone's pain.
Don't take it wrong, I just wanted to give some background of normal school in similar region. Not sure from where Red Panda is, but I know that many perCers are from USA or from some other English speaking country. I imagine that USA is really strict about violations, from what I hear people care about laws and rules there and school management aren't full of spineless adults, who let violations easily slide. In Eastern Europe matters are different and culture in schools is totally different. I find that it's important to mention background first before giving advice. But still, Charus wasn't in normal bad situation, he was in pretty good situation.


That's something many people do. And it makes people suffer much, much more. Because they feel like they don't have the right to feel pain, to complain, to cry, to get help. So they start cutting, do drugs, or let themselves develop severe issues. Because they hope that then they will feel they have the right to get help and feel pain.
This only works if he was still in school, but now that everything is over who cares? I'm not saying that being rude and insensitive is okay now, however understanding situation and giving a decent advice is what is needed. Excessive softness isn't good strategy, it doesn't solve problems.

His parents didn't really accept that problem well and it sucks to be rejected by closest people to you. I suspect that parents have no idea how to deal with that, are typical people, weren't bullied or maybe even bullied someone. Many possibilities here, but point is that pretty much nobody knows how to react to such problem, let alone solve it. From my experience all those bullying prevention campaigns (normal things in Eastern European schools) were extremely shallow, offer awful advice, or speaker doesn't give a shit about bullying. I can say that emotionally crushed person without guts to fight, has no real options to solve such problem and in Charus's case he may be bullied by family members if he becomes too open about seeking help for that. So far best advice here was to go to therapist. Such person is professional with such problems. Charus could expect therapist to be understanding and helpful. My own advice would be to look if there are any anonymous psychological help lines. Charus should do this stuff all alone and in secret, because family is rejecting sensitivities. Either way anything that Charus will decide to do will require some courage and determination, so good luck with that.

My friend was bullied in that same shithole. He couldn't ignore all that for long and he quickly grew impatient and almost impulsive. One day he lost it a bit and asked for my help in beating up them all. I kept my cool and explained that it was madness for us 2 to go against at least 13 of them. There was no way for us to win that. Apparently, he was actually friends with one of them and that one of them was also high in bully hierarchy. I have no idea how they communicated and what my friend wrote to him. After a week or so my friend decided to reveal everything and spilled beans to his parents. Soon problem was announced to school authorities and quickly to students' parents. Surprisingly it worked out for him, nobody were messing with him. I admire my friend's braveness, however at the same time it's spectacular that it didn't turn against him. Perhaps important factor was that friend-bully had mom, who worked in same school as teacher and she was a strict lady. Perhaps if not here, my friend's courage could have turned against him and instead of fixing problem, he could have become a prime bullying target. It's not only our class that could have bullied him, but in a way whole school. Because higher in hierarchy bullies at my class were just somewhere in the middle of all school bullies. Those at the top are completely different animals, they pretty much were criminals (were arrested for stealing and selling phones, shoplifted local stores, had ties with other street thugs, were constantly picking on their classmates, attended MMA club and could kill someone). My friend was really lucky to solve his problems in such way, his chances were slim and he was being too rash about it. We soon graduated from that school and went to gymnasium for our last 4 years of school. We were in different classes and weren't meeting each other much, but he quickly made some friends there and didn't seem to have any lasting traumas.

I suspect that mostly helpful was family, another important factor was old ties with classmates. In such situations moral support is important as well as having some authority to depend on in case stuff goes sour. Frankly, there's not much that can be done afterwards and if person already suffered bad trauma. Time heals wounds, therapist can help a bit, but it's just sad if family clearly doesn't give a fuck. It would be nice if Charus could move out, meet therapist and then do some volunteering work. Volunteering work would be wonderful for mental health. It's likely that people there are understanding of various problems and have nurturing spirit. By being in such groups, old wounds can slowly heal and Charus eventually would learn to self-maintain a healthy mental state.
 

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Looks like a normal stuff in Eastern European school. Physical bullying and other random crap is way worse. In my school it was normal to fight every week, constantly disrupt classes, once a month do something "special" (like throwing some student's PE clothes from 3rd floor into mud) and pretty much every year there were conflicts with police.
oh shit
 

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Don't take it wrong, I just wanted to give some background of normal school in similar region. Not sure from where Red Panda is, but I know that many perCers are from USA or from some other English speaking country. I imagine that USA is really strict about violations, from what I hear people care about laws and rules there and school management aren't full of spineless adults, who let violations easily slide. In Eastern Europe matters are different and culture in schools is totally different. I find that it's important to mention background first before giving advice. But still, Charus wasn't in normal bad situation, he was in pretty good situation.



This only works if he was still in school, but now that everything is over who cares? I'm not saying that being rude and insensitive is okay now, however understanding situation and giving a decent advice is what is needed. Excessive softness isn't good strategy, it doesn't solve problems.

His parents didn't really accept that problem well and it sucks to be rejected by closest people to you. I suspect that parents have no idea how to deal with that, are typical people, weren't bullied or maybe even bullied someone. Many possibilities here, but point is that pretty much nobody knows how to react to such problem, let alone solve it. From my experience all those bullying prevention campaigns (normal things in Eastern European schools) were extremely shallow, offer awful advice, or speaker doesn't give a shit about bullying. I can say that emotionally crushed person without guts to fight, has no real options to solve such problem and in Charus's case he may be bullied by family members if he becomes too open about seeking help for that. So far best advice here was to go to therapist. Such person is professional with such problems. Charus could expect therapist to be understanding and helpful. My own advice would be to look if there are any anonymous psychological help lines. Charus should do this stuff all alone and in secret, because family is rejecting sensitivities. Either way anything that Charus will decide to do will require some courage and determination, so good luck with that.

My friend was bullied in that same shithole. He couldn't ignore all that for long and he quickly grew impatient and almost impulsive. One day he lost it a bit and asked for my help in beating up them all. I kept my cool and explained that it was madness for us 2 to go against at least 13 of them. There was no way for us to win that. Apparently, he was actually friends with one of them and that one of them was also high in bully hierarchy. I have no idea how they communicated and what my friend wrote to him. After a week or so my friend decided to reveal everything and spilled beans to his parents. Soon problem was announced to school authorities and quickly to students' parents. Surprisingly it worked out for him, nobody were messing with him. I admire my friend's braveness, however at the same time it's spectacular that it didn't turn against him. Perhaps important factor was that friend-bully had mom, who worked in same school as teacher and she was a strict lady. Perhaps if not here, my friend's courage could have turned against him and instead of fixing problem, he could have become a prime bullying target. It's not only our class that could have bullied him, but in a way whole school. Because higher in hierarchy bullies at my class were just somewhere in the middle of all school bullies. Those at the top are completely different animals, they pretty much were criminals (were arrested for stealing and selling phones, shoplifted local stores, had ties with other street thugs, were constantly picking on their classmates, attended MMA club and could kill someone). My friend was really lucky to solve his problems in such way, his chances were slim and he was being too rash about it. We soon graduated from that school and went to gymnasium for our last 4 years of school. We were in different classes and weren't meeting each other much, but he quickly made some friends there and didn't seem to have any lasting traumas.

I suspect that mostly helpful was family, another important factor was old ties with classmates. In such situations moral support is important as well as having some authority to depend on in case stuff goes sour. Frankly, there's not much that can be done afterwards and if person already suffered bad trauma. Time heals wounds, therapist can help a bit, but it's just sad if family clearly doesn't give a fuck. It would be nice if Charus could move out, meet therapist and then do some volunteering work. Volunteering work would be wonderful for mental health. It's likely that people there are understanding of various problems and have nurturing spirit. By being in such groups, old wounds can slowly heal and Charus eventually would learn to self-maintain a healthy mental state.
Hmmm, I don't think we disagree that much. I think we focus on something different.
I completely agree with you. Having experienced bullying is not a good reason to keep behaving so super sensitive or even hostile to other people or to wallow in self pity. But I think it's also important to acknowledge that that sometimes that's part of the healing process... and that bullying can make a horrible (I'm not saying you are horrible, Charus! :p) person out of a sweet, cute butterfly. Many things can do that. Rejection in love, shouting parents, a lot of things that are normal can be very traumatising. Life is pretty traumatising.

So, while it's not a good reason to behave shitty, it is an explanation for why people behave shitty and usually there is a lot of pain behind that. What in my experience works best is to acknowledge the pain, validate their feelings, show empathy and care... and then after that it's a good idea to try to solve the issue.
But if a person feels invalidated the person will feel horrible again. And then put up walls or get angry.
 

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Looks like a normal stuff in Eastern European school. Physical bullying and other random crap is way worse. In my school it was normal to fight every week, constantly disrupt classes, once a month do something "special" (like throwing some student's PE clothes from 3rd floor into mud) and pretty much every year there were conflicts with police.
It has more to do with poverty than anything else. Poor people's kids are generally demon spawn, they haven't learned to control their sadistic desires, in a way they're more honest about their true selves I guess. The majority are not sadists of course, they just want the attention they didn't get from their alcoholic parents in a chaotic overcrowded house because who needs contraception, amirite?

Yeah and the schools are underfunded too... one would be wise to send their kid off to a private school if they could afford it, and I do consider small town lowest common denominator state schools as a form of cruelty, reckless abandonment even.
 

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Probably the biggest incident in my class was during last year. Three girls from my class apparently beat up a 40 year old man. Homeroom teacher had to deal with police afterwards, as well as director.

I'm already graduated from that school, but last year on news site it was written that a man in park saw some kids doing something suspicious. He came closer and saw that they were kicking some kid. Man got infuriated and called cops on them. Turns out that whole class ganged up on some girl from same class and beat her up. Beaten up girl was in comma for a while. Some things just don't change with that school.

I had a chance to be in school after it closed. I was in school, which was in small village and apparently kids came from several villages to it. School was full of anti-bullying posters, suicide hot lines and depression treatment posters. Well, it felt like atmosphere there wasn't the best. I figured out that there must be some demand for such stuff and that's just fucked up.
 

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It has more to do with poverty than anything else. Poor people's kids are generally demon spawn, they haven't learned to control their sadistic desires, in a way they're more honest about their true selves I guess. The majority are not sadists of course, they just want the attention they didn't get from their alcoholic parents in a chaotic overcrowded house because who needs contraception, amirite?
I wouldn't say that poverty was a thing there nor alcoholism. Most parents weren't really rich, but could live pretty financially well. Some kids had decently rich parent and one kid had was a daughter of businessman, so she could spend a lot of money on various things. Too bad brain wasn't one of them.

As I figured out many families had several kids and some became rough from lack of attention from parents. Some because of similar behaviour from brothers or sisters.


Yeah and the schools are underfunded too... one would be wise to send their kid off to a private school if they could afford it, and I do consider small town lowest common denominator state schools as a form of cruelty, reckless abandonment even.
That particular school wasn't underfunded either. It was wasting a lot of money on various renovations at time. It was just that most teachers weren't under control of their classes and bad behaviour grew uncontrollable. It was so bad that some teachers could do absolutely nothing and became bullying targets themselves. It was normal for some teachers to keep shouting at students to behave or just STFU. In Russian lessons teacher sometimes spent 30 minutes of lesson trying to control them and only 15 minutes to actually teach us the subject. Sometimes she even had to bring some student to director's office because of their pranks or bullying.
 

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I wouldn't say that poverty was a thing there nor alcoholism. Most parents weren't really rich, but could live pretty financially well. Some kids had decently rich parent and one kid had was a daughter of businessman, so she could spend a lot of money on various things. Too bad brain wasn't one of them.

As I figured out many families had several kids and some became rough from lack of attention from parents. Some because of similar behaviour from brothers or sisters.



That particular school wasn't underfunded either. It was wasting a lot of money on various renovations at time. It was just that most teachers weren't under control of their classes and bad behaviour grew uncontrollable. It was so bad that some teachers could do absolutely nothing and became bullying targets themselves. It was normal for some teachers to keep shouting at students to behave or just STFU. In Russian lessons teacher sometimes spent 30 minutes of lesson trying to control them and only 15 minutes to actually teach us the subject. Sometimes she even had to bring some student to director's office because of their pranks or bullying.
Okay, alright. I have seen this happen I experienced a lot of what you have described and from my observations this is all due to lax disciplinary measures. In Britain there was a well defined system that punished anyone for even the slightest disturbance, quickly leading to the removal of an offender from class essentially. It was amazing, they considered a 5 minute delay to be pretty bad and here half of the lesson is often wasted on banter.

Yes I know why dismissing a defenseless child from class is not popular around these parts the teachers are directly responsible for the wellbeing of the child and any harm could lead to a lawsuit I know about that but you see in Britain you would be sent over to the reception area where you would be under supervision and you'd wait for your parents to pick you up. Then you would be excluded for a few days and one person in my primary school actually got suspended, FROM A PRIMARY SCHOOL.

So in the end it comes down to the education reforms, likely conducted by a team of braindead and corrupt individuals looking to reduce government spending, which is definitely the case in my country.
 

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I mean sure, but what would be the reason to invalidate my own feelings?
to learn that your feelings are something you are in control of. they happen internally to you as a reaction to something external. if you learn to think of new ways to perceive , you can have different emotional reactions.

for example , if someone insults you and calls you a loser - know that everybody both wins and loses , its a moment in time , losing is necessary if we are to have winning... the more you dislike losing, the more you are driven to win. also , the offending person is having their own emotional reaction , they calling you a loser is like a baby crying... they need something but dont know how to get it. hurt people hurt people.

if you learn to invalidate your feelings, you will also learn to validate your feelings - and you'lll no longer need external validation or be offended by external invalidation.
 
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