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Discussion Starter #1
I have a type 5w6 INTP brother. Unfortunately, he's quite unhealthy right now. But aside from that, I am curious. This is true for my brother, but I have no idea if type Fives have this tendency. So, basically, is any of this true for you? I do know that this will probably apply more to unhealthy Fives.

I have noticed within him a false identity. He doesn't really know himself. He has an idea of who he is, which can be quite different from what he actually is. Also, he doesn't know how he appears and comes across to other people. He's completely oblivious. And he's completely oblivious to the fact that he's oblivious. o_O

His number one foundation is this "system of thought" of his. It's a way of reasoning things. Anything and everything. He always latches onto some foundation that matches up to "his way of thinking" and that is how he comes to trust it. This can be a bit of a problem. Despite the fact that he's extremely smart and is guided by this reason, as he gets more unhealthy this way of thinking becomes more and more unreasonable. Even when it isn't entirely unreasonable, he will have problems trusting something if it doesn't quite match up with how he thinks. His instinct, I guess, is to trust himself.

Due to a lack of self awareness, he has a hard time getting to the bottom of why he feels a certain way and why he thinks a certain way. He has a hard time recognizing his motivations. He starts rationalizing things in a poisonous way. He comes up with motivations, reasons why he does things, which aren't really there. It's a mirage. It's another false image.

He thinks he is self aware, though, and he thinks his vision of himself is the right one. He also has a tendency to think that his way of thinking is the right way of thinking. Now, I'm not at all saying I know him completely and perfectly. I won't say that I understand how he feels all the time.

It's just that sometimes he says, finally, that people will never be able to understand how he feels. He says that to my face. "You don't understand." That sums up how he thinks about people, really. And there is some truth to this, because nobody can perfectly understand somebody. Or even mostly perfectly.

But I do understand him in other ways. I wish he could see this false identity. I also wish he would place trust in things other than his way of thinking and himself. It is harming him, currently.

So, is this typical for an unhealthy type Five? Do type Fives have any of these tendencies? Is there anything I can do to talk to him and help him?
 

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unhealthy people with 5w6 have a tendancy towards paranoia. they can see themselves as arbiters of truth, they are obsessed with and only respects logic. they have an inability to see that their pure logic only works within a framework they have created for themselves. they are right all the time and everyone else does not get it and is stupid. this can lead to isolation and carelessness, because the real world doesn't conform to their framework and is tiresome to deal with for them.

whether this is the case for your brother, i don't know. i'm not sure what you mean by "false identity".
 

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Hmmm. None of this jumped out as particularly weird for me. I did think it was strange that you are a 6w7 and he's a 5w6 [you're both in the head triad, core and wing] so you both probably share some of these things. No offense at all, but I would make sure you aren't projecting [which is common for 6's] and to make sure you aren't just being anxious when there is no big problem. Maybe take some time to look into yourself, see if you have any of the behaviour you mentioned and deal with that.
 

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I also don't really understand what you mean by false identity.
At first, I thought I did, and I had a response ready, but then the actual content of your post sort of confused me.
Ah well, I'll tell you anyway -

I do feel like I have several identities. I don't know, it's weird. I've always known that I act incredibly differently in school to how I do at home, so differently to the point that I'm incredibly frustrated with myself and wish that my 'Home' self could be my 'School' self too. At school, I am quiet, always take the background seat in teamwork tasks and conversations, and I'm always watching what I say. Whereas at home, I feel so much more comfortable and unrestricted to the point that I act like a complete nutcase, making 'funny'/stupid/sarcastic comments on anything and everything and basically freeing myself a bit more. I'm more me.
But recently, some of my family members have been saying that I need to 'stop acting so differently' and that I've changed recently. And I wasn't aware of that, I really wasn't. They think that recently, I've become unnaturally caustic and that my increasingly independent attitude 'does not suit me'. They would rather I go back to 'my old self' ie. incredibly withdrawn to the point where I am completely unconfident and so socially inept it kills. And this has caused me to become so so so unsure of myself. I yearn for someone, anyone to understand me and be happy with me being me. The comments my family give me about my personality changing/identity changing and me being unaware and ungrateful do hurt me, and I feel like chunks have been taken from me or censored or... I can't really explain.
Soooooo, in summary, I think perhaps you need not worry and should just back away from the topic of him having different identities. I felt so much more comfortable and happy with myself before I was told that my personality 'doesn't suit me'. I'm now pretty insecure.

I don't even know if that made any sense... x_x
 

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Hmmm. None of this jumped out as particularly weird for me. I did think it was strange that you are a 6w7 and he's a 5w6 [you're both in the head triad, core and wing] so you both probably share some of these things. No offense at all, but I would make sure you aren't projecting [which is common for 6's] and to make sure you aren't just being anxious when there is no big problem. Maybe take some time to look into yourself, see if you have any of the behaviour you mentioned and deal with that.
No, no offense taken. I have this constant need to be internally aware, and I constantly search for "problems" and "inconsistencies" and I try very hard to get down to the honest hard truth of what I'm feeling and why I'm feeling that way. In fact, if there's one fear I have, it's that I'd be blind to a perspective or even worse - myself and my identity. I must be in tune with myself. I have to constantly know my flaws and see them. Perhaps that's the One side of me. Not in an image sense, but an honest, "This is who I really am and there's this bad spot I have that I never saw." It's absolutely irrational. So I constantly search for it. I know that in itself is very telling. We all have blind spots. I know there's times when I "project". I can say with a confidence I don't usually possess that this is not the case right now. There is a problem that exists. It's not that he's a Five and that's the problem.

It's not just me who have noticed this, as well. It's also my mom and my sister and my dad. I'm simply trying to point a finger at the main problem. The whys.

By "false identity" I don't just mean the false identity that we all have. The false sense of self. We all have an image of ourselves that isn't who we really are. There's no getting around that. I have it too. But this is a bit different in my brother's case. It's as though he doesn't know himself at all, in a way that seems to be harming him. It can make him fairly arrogant at times, I suppose. Mainly, it creates a gap between himself and others. Of course, he is actually bipolar and that probably has a lot more to do with it. That certainly makes him more hesitant to trust things, which is why he trusts himself more. There's just a lack of internal awareness. Or at least one aspect of internal awareness is turned off.

I guess what I am trying to say is that he can't see any of these things - how unhealthy he has become, how unhealthy his reasoning has come, how far he has withdrawn. He knows he feels alienated and most definitely misunderstood. He's got intense feelings for sure. So the "false identity" is that he sees himself as overall healthy, that his reasoning is perfectly fine, and that he hasn't really 'withdrawn' too far. And then he trusts himself. He trusts that false identity as the true identity.

I know that for many Fives, they just get caught in the wrong family, and the family tries to fix a problem that doesn't really exist and just makes things worse. I don't think that's the case this time.

I was wondering, though, if this was also a problem Fives struggle with. The 'false identity' part that I failed to clarify. x3
 

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It's really difficult to bring another into my my-ness, it's a challenge. Usually I only have all my inner voices and most people don't even register to me.
I do dabble in the world as if I'm able to do as I please, while whatever is really happening out there just keeps happening without me. It doesn't truly matter to me what is truly going on, it only matters what I make myself believe is going on and by doing that then I have a sort of power at hand to create and re-create what I want to feel, think and entertain on.

I can hold out my hand and almost touch what is in the world, the people, the situations, but because the rest of my body is disconnecting than I'm never really connected to them. I can participate, it just doesn't really 'have' the most of me.

Plus, because everything is perspective than I make the most of making perspective.
 
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I have a type 5w6 INTP brother. Unfortunately, he's quite unhealthy right now. But aside from that, I am curious. This is true for my brother, but I have no idea if type Fives have this tendency. So, basically, is any of this true for you? I do know that this will probably apply more to unhealthy Fives.

I have noticed within him a false identity. He doesn't really know himself. He has an idea of who he is, which can be quite different from what he actually is. Also, he doesn't know how he appears and comes across to other people. He's completely oblivious. And he's completely oblivious to the fact that he's oblivious. o_O

His number one foundation is this "system of thought" of his. It's a way of reasoning things. Anything and everything. He always latches onto some foundation that matches up to "his way of thinking" and that is how he comes to trust it. This can be a bit of a problem. Despite the fact that he's extremely smart and is guided by this reason, as he gets more unhealthy this way of thinking becomes more and more unreasonable. Even when it isn't entirely unreasonable, he will have problems trusting something if it doesn't quite match up with how he thinks. His instinct, I guess, is to trust himself.

Due to a lack of self awareness, he has a hard time getting to the bottom of why he feels a certain way and why he thinks a certain way. He has a hard time recognizing his motivations. He starts rationalizing things in a poisonous way. He comes up with motivations, reasons why he does things, which aren't really there. It's a mirage. It's another false image.

He thinks he is self aware, though, and he thinks his vision of himself is the right one. He also has a tendency to think that his way of thinking is the right way of thinking. Now, I'm not at all saying I know him completely and perfectly. I won't say that I understand how he feels all the time.

It's just that sometimes he says, finally, that people will never be able to understand how he feels. He says that to my face. "You don't understand." That sums up how he thinks about people, really. And there is some truth to this, because nobody can perfectly understand somebody. Or even mostly perfectly.

But I do understand him in other ways. I wish he could see this false identity. I also wish he would place trust in things other than his way of thinking and himself. It is harming him, currently.

So, is this typical for an unhealthy type Five? Do type Fives have any of these tendencies? Is there anything I can do to talk to him and help him?
I completely understand what your brother is going through, I experience the same. Now I'm gradually recover. Though I'm a 5w4, so my 'people don't understand' whining is accomadated with melancholy moods and at times crying.

Yes, I think its a typical unhealthy type 5 that become so disconnected with their feelings and surrounding, they stick primarly with their thinking to discern what's obvious to a point of over analyzing and making absurd assumptions.

My advice to you is suggest your brother to search information on the internet about his condition, he will definitely not trust your opinions and relish gods of reasons. Let him search factual stuff, complex theory, about his condition, until he realize it was something simple/what you said to him all along.

Usually when I say 'no one could understand me', some people thought I was just being melodramatic and somewhat elitist, but its the opposite of it. I was concern that I cannot verbalize my needs and feelings, and created delusions that I'm somewhat very different from other human being.

Tell your brother its because of him people don't understand him. He always thinks he's weird, odd or strange and that kind of suggestion will be implanted and confuse himself. He's already weird, constantly saying this will damage his self esteem as oppose to be honest to himself, that I think what he was intending(it was mine, at least)

After he realize his condition, advice him to use tapping. Don't say 'think positively' because there's a big chance he already did and it didn't work. Though tapping its similar to thinking positive, the term itself will evoke his curiosity and he will try it for sure. But don't help him, let he arrive to his healthy state by his own, the way he likes it.

I hope this helps :)
 

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I'm wondering if he is ever told that he is anything other than smart or a genius. I imagine it might be a bit hard to trust people who on one hand tell you that you are smart and on the other hand tell you that you are wrong and not to trust yourself.
But I think I'm referring more to Ti than Five-ness.
 

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Perhaps what you believe to be the false persona is the true persona.
People constantly tell me things about myself where I wonder how they came up with this because the person they describe is not me. Yes, I am paranoid and far from healthy most of the time. I know I hide behind a mask. But if they actually cared to look they could easily see behind it. Yet it seems that most people formed an opinion of who I am and how I should be and refuse to look further and expect me to live up to their weird expectations.

If he turned out to be different from your current picture of him, would you be disappointed? If not (and I hope that is the case) does he know this?
I don't know how old your brother is, but it may be that you are still seeing the child. That your expectations have not changed. I find myself doing this constantly with my sisters, expecting them to act like they would have 10 or 20 years ago. But they're not those people anymore. With my youngest sister it's even worse because she's only 19 and changed quite a lot during the last few years, even months.

Also, not every mask is actually a lie. Some of them are the truth masked as a mask ;)

What I mean to say is, try to get to know him anew as if he was a stranger you just met.
 

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unhealthy people with 5w6 have a tendancy towards paranoia. they can see themselves as arbiters of truth, they are obsessed with and only respects logic. they have an inability to see that their pure logic only works within a framework they have created for themselves. they are right all the time and everyone else does not get it and is stupid. this can lead to isolation and carelessness, because the real world doesn't conform to their framework and is tiresome to deal with for them.

whether this is the case for your brother, i don't know. i'm not sure what you mean by "false identity".
Wow!! You nailed it!! I was in that status when my state of mind is somehow unhealthy.
 
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I know that for many Fives, they just get caught in the wrong family, and the family tries to fix a problem that doesn't really exist and just makes things worse. I don't think that's the case this time.

I was wondering, though, if this was also a problem Fives struggle with. The 'false identity' part that I failed to clarify. x3
I was stuck in a wrong family I guess.
My Mom, always trying to change and fix me and always use her measures to talk to me you should be this this this and you shouldn't be this this this. Super emotional! So many times it drives me crazy!
My Sister, too dependant on others and not reliable, keeps changing all the time.
My Dad, he's ok but very stubborn and always thinking if I can do it why can't you do it (time has change now, the environmental factor has changed).
...... Maybe thats why I am always withdraw myself at home!
 

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I have only read the beginning of this thread, but this is what I have to say so far:

Julia Bell said:
I have noticed within him a false identity. He doesn't really know himself. He has an idea of who he is, which can be quite different from what he actually is. Also, he doesn't know how he appears and comes across to other people. He's completely oblivious. And he's completely oblivious to the fact that he's oblivious.
Yes, I notice this in type-5s as well. There is a video of type-5s being interviewed and they were asked about what they think their current partner (or potential future partner) might have to say about being in a relationship with them, and none of them had any idea…. Which is strange!! They don't know how they come off to others?? Is this not part of being observant? So yeah, kind of interesting. // I think the fact that they can be distant (just watching) sort of negates how it is that they are actually already embodied (and hence already communicating) in a particular situation. << This part simply slips by (out of awareness), since they can't both WATCH and BE EMBODIED (totally present) at the same time. //

His number one foundation is this "system of thought" of his. It's a way of reasoning things. Anything and everything. He always latches onto some foundation that matches up to "his way of thinking" and that is how he comes to trust it. This can be a bit of a problem. Despite the fact that he's extremely smart and is guided by this reason, as he gets more unhealthy this way of thinking becomes more and more unreasonable. Even when it isn't entirely unreasonable, he will have problems trusting something if it doesn't quite match up with how he thinks. His instinct, I guess, is to trust himself.
Interesting -- this touches on a lot of questions I have had about type-5 lately. >> It would seem, then, that growth for type-5 might have something to do with recognizing the bull of their own "system of thought", or recognizing, to some degree, that it might be lacking (that there might be other systems that do just as much, or that can provide insight that one's current system lacks or is unable to question?). << In this sense, one might have to face the fact that one does not know everything that one thinks they do…. and, this could be a threatening situation for 5s. This, to me, was where I thought perhaps the defensiveness (and fear!) present in some 5s comes out of. But, I could be wrong. Interesting what you wrote!

I wonder if he [your brother] also has something like a 1 in his tri-type. I have no idea. just putting this out there.

What you have said (all of it) really seemed similar to what I have also seen in some 5s that I don't think were entirely healthy (and this a relative term).

And, about you using the term "false identity" << To me, this made a lot of sense to me. In my understanding, sometimes type-5 is characterized as having a type of retentiveness about it, also characterized as avarice, I think. << And, we can see this in terms of clinging to self-identity (this is what Sandra Maitri says, I think). It is clinging on to one way of viewing the world. // the very fact that they disengage -- it's like it protects this notion of 'self,' even if that self is only a mirage of a mental map of some sort. // there is a retentiveness of self --<< i do see this in type-5. (lack of awareness of their own embeddedness in their map, maybe? i don't know. i hope people don't take what i am saying too seriously.)

I mean, the sense of 'objectivity' that 5s might have (aside from those that are very healthy?) could be indicative of this false identity. // what exactly is neutral about your view point? I don't think objectivity comes without 'perfect' embeddedness in the situation. then, you are free of bias and thoughts no longer assault you. defensiveness is also no longer necessary, since you're able to see what it is at it comes at you. The fear and anxiety (in a 5) is indicative of some sense of identity that is resisting the world [as it is]. And, i'm not trying to say that other types don't face this --> indeed, i think this illusory identity (personality itself?) is like, core problem of all types (?). //

This fits nicely with what I have also seen in [some] type 5s:
By "false identity" I don't just mean the false identity that we all have. The false sense of self. We all have an image of ourselves that isn't who we really are. There's no getting around that. I have it too. But this is a bit different in my brother's case. It's as though he doesn't know himself at all, in a way that seems to be harming him. It can make him fairly arrogant at times, I suppose. Mainly, it creates a gap between himself and others. Of course, he is actually bipolar and that probably has a lot more to do with it. That certainly makes him more hesitant to trust things, which is why he trusts himself more. There's just a lack of internal awareness. Or at least one aspect of internal awareness is turned off.
Naranjo says that type-5s can be totally oblivious (contrary to assumed complete perceptiveness). This is mentioned in particular with respect to self and self-presentation more generally. (we can see this also in respect to the way a type 5, perhaps, might not care how they appear or come off in public. << you could say that this is just a result of some sort of transcendent renunciation of mundane pleasures that most people ignorantly strive for and hence suffer from, but i think it is also indicative of some amount of blindness towards how it is that people actually relate to the world (whether it is to other people or even KNOWLEDGE ITSELF!). // recognizing the 3rd-essential aspect of knowledge (if the first two are self-and other), then, would be the nature of the dynamism -- the relatedness, which, necessarily has a component of communication (although i hate that word?). and, this has to do with how you are communicating with the object of your awareness, or the thing via which one is trying to understand <<<< A type 5 can miss this part, and mistake the shadows on the wall to be the thing itself, rather than recognizing that it is oneself making the shadows…. but, this is by far not limited to type 5. i don't exactly see a difference between this [what I just said] and the ignorance that prevails in all enneatypes…. Each type just has a different flavor (?).
 

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I heavily doubt this is an enneagram thing. I don't relate. Also, why do you think he has a "false identity?" Perhaps your heavy Fi concerns are just not his (being a Ti dominant, who basically don't even need Fi).
 
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I heavily doubt this is an enneagram thing. I don't relate. Also, why do you think he has a "false identity?" Perhaps your heavy Fi concerns are just not his (being a Ti dominant, who basically don't even need Fi).
Some of what turns me off, in fact a lot of it could be his Ti. Ti is just so... urg! >.< Er, sorry to any Ti users. O_O But Ti can leave me mystified sometimes.

The false identity thing comes from his lack of internal awareness. I know I can't just look inside his head and see what he's thinking, but he can't tell how he comes across towards other people. He also doesn't seem to have any sort of grasp on the motivations behind why he does something. He also doesn't seem to particularly want to pay attention to motivation.

He has been getting "better" recently after being on medication for a while now. I'm pretty sure now that most of this is a mix of Ti putting me off, some type 5, but mainly bipolar.
 

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Give the meds some time, especially if he's still figuring out the right dosage. It takes a while, but it will have an effect. The problem of a 5w6 is learning to trust. Have you read this? I think it's helpful just so that instead of pointing things out to him, lead him in the right direction. Be warm and accepting and once he trusts you shape him into who he's meant to be. Don't necessarily change his views, just remind him about other perspectives and that it's okay to want/need to be around people sometimes.

Having experienced the spiral and baroque thoughts, I know how meaningful everything can be. Let him figure things out on his own right now. Unfortunately, he pretty much has to hit rock bottom before he can emerge as himself again and start to recover. I'm sorry you have to go through this, I put my family and friends through a lot of hardship as I cut them off completely. Remind him you're there for him and let his mind do the rest.
 
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Well, just remember @Julia Bell, that the enneagram is not a self-help tool (nor is MBTI), so it's not going to explain psychological abnormalities. Maybe you get this, but I just wanted to put this out for other people here who tend to approach these things as if they have any relation to psychological problems.
 
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Those Issues are more 3-ish. And he has a 6 wing. I think that his wing is disintegrating to 3 OR he might have 3 in his heart fix.

I have a type 5w6 INTP brother. Unfortunately, he's quite unhealthy right now. But aside from that, I am curious. This is true for my brother, but I have no idea if type Fives have this tendency. So, basically, is any of this true for you? I do know that this will probably apply more to unhealthy Fives.

I have noticed within him a false identity. He doesn't really know himself. He has an idea of who he is, which can be quite different from what he actually is. Also, he doesn't know how he appears and comes across to other people. He's completely oblivious. And he's completely oblivious to the fact that he's oblivious. o_O

His number one foundation is this "system of thought" of his. It's a way of reasoning things. Anything and everything. He always latches onto some foundation that matches up to "his way of thinking" and that is how he comes to trust it. This can be a bit of a problem. Despite the fact that he's extremely smart and is guided by this reason, as he gets more unhealthy this way of thinking becomes more and more unreasonable. Even when it isn't entirely unreasonable, he will have problems trusting something if it doesn't quite match up with how he thinks. His instinct, I guess, is to trust himself.

Due to a lack of self awareness, he has a hard time getting to the bottom of why he feels a certain way and why he thinks a certain way. He has a hard time recognizing his motivations. He starts rationalizing things in a poisonous way. He comes up with motivations, reasons why he does things, which aren't really there. It's a mirage. It's another false image.

He thinks he is self aware, though, and he thinks his vision of himself is the right one. He also has a tendency to think that his way of thinking is the right way of thinking. Now, I'm not at all saying I know him completely and perfectly. I won't say that I understand how he feels all the time.

It's just that sometimes he says, finally, that people will never be able to understand how he feels. He says that to my face. "You don't understand." That sums up how he thinks about people, really. And there is some truth to this, because nobody can perfectly understand somebody. Or even mostly perfectly.

But I do understand him in other ways. I wish he could see this false identity. I also wish he would place trust in things other than his way of thinking and himself. It is harming him, currently.

So, is this typical for an unhealthy type Five? Do type Fives have any of these tendencies? Is there anything I can do to talk to him and help him?
 
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