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Favorite Ennneagram Theorist(s)

  • Riso and Hudson

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • The Fauvres

    Votes: 2 9.1%
  • Ichazo

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Naranjo

    Votes: 9 40.9%
  • Maitri

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • Palmer

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • other (please specify)

    Votes: 6 27.3%
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
personally, I'm partial to Naranjo. he hits to the core and doesn't pull his punches. before coming across his work, I sorted through so much nebulous, white washed shit trying to figure out my core, but Naranjo made it obvious.
apart from practical value, I love the defensive reactions his work gets out of people when he brings up an inconvenient part of their personality. no other Enneagram theorist is as controversial :cool:
 

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Naranjo then Riso and Hudson then Fauvres (more for accessibility and videos) then, way down the list, the New Agey duo of Maitri and Palmer. I honestly didn't get any new insights from reading Palmer's book, and Maitri seemed equally flakey (read a couple chapters). I can't say the same for Naranjo. To the OP, I was surprised Naranjo correlated INTJ and enneagram seven. :tongue: I would say Naranjo is the "deepest" whereas Riso and Hudson's Wisdom of the Enneagram organized the material best. Palmer, by contrast, just lazily slapped together anecdotes of each type. Also, tangent coming, I felt Riso and Hudson brought up unique points about red flag fears, leaden rules and how certain types respond to rules (e.g., how threes want to know the rules...maybe so they could take shortcuts or game the system :wink:). The subtypes were also well explained by Riso and Hudson. Palmer basically just said a word or two about the instinctual variants of each type...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Naranjo then Riso and Hudson then Fauvres (more for accessibility and videos) then, way down the list, the New Agey duo of Maitri and Palmer. I honestly didn't get any new insights from reading Palmer's book, and Maitri seemed equally flakey (read a couple chapters). I can't say the same for Naranjo. To the OP, I was surprised Naranjo correlated INTJ and enneagram seven. :tongue: I would say Naranjo is the "deepest" whereas Riso and Hudson's Wisdom of the Enneagram organized the material best. Palmer, by contrast, just lazily slapped together anecdotes of each type. Also, tangent coming, I felt Riso and Hudson brought up unique points about red flag fears, leaden rules and how certain types respond to rules (e.g., how threes want to know the rules...maybe so they could take shortcuts or game the system :wink:). The subtypes were also well explained by Riso and Hudson. Palmer basically just said a word or two about the instinctual variants of each type...
occasionally he misses the mark big time, for example
- correlating type 7 with INTJ (@Boss is the only person I can think of who is a likely INTJ 7)
- correlating type 5 with ISTJ (there are a fair number of ISTJ 5w6s, but it's far more common in INTs)
- typing Napoleon Bonapart as a 2 (though, to be fair, he also brings up a whole other side of 2 that most of the descriptions completely miss. most 2s are far more covertly controlling and domineering than pseudo-9-ish demeanor most descriptions would have you believe they possess. unhealthy twos combine the explosivity of 8, the self righteousness of 1, the emotional train wreckage of 4 and, sometimes, the attention whoring antics of 7.).
- saying Social 8s are the only intellectual 8s (they're not going to sit discussing Plato's republic with you for 2 hours, but many Self Preservation 8, particularly 8w7, become well learned, strategic and cunning in their pursuit of power and material gain. your typical mastermind villain, if not a 6w5, is probably an Sp dom 8w7)

like all theorists, he's not without his flaws, but his work is by far the most useful imo.
 

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occasionally he misses the mark big time, for example
- correlating type 7 with INTJ (@Boss is the only person I can think of who is a likely INTJ 7)
- correlating type 5 with ISTJ (there are a fair number of ISTJ 5w6s, but it's far more common in INTs)
- typing Napoleon Bonapart as a 2 (though, to be fair, he also brings up a whole other side of 2 that most of the descriptions completely miss. most 2s are far more covertly controlling and domineering than pseudo-9-ish demeanor most descriptions would have you believe they possess. unhealthy twos combine the explosivity of 8, the self righteousness of 1, the emotional train wreckage of 4 and, sometimes, the attention whoring antics of 7.).
- saying Social 8s are the only intellectual 8s (they're not going to sit discussing Plato's republic with you for 2 hours, but many Self Preservation 8, particularly 8w7, become well learned, strategic and cunning in their pursuit of power and material gain. your typical mastermind villain, if not a 6w5, is probably an Sp dom 8w7)

like all theorists, he's not without his flaws, but his work is by far the most useful imo.
Palmer had some really bad mistypings too. And how would Napoleon not be an eight?!

Some people call philosopher Slavoj Zizek a Sx eight...very intellectual (and lusty) guy.

Yeah if I ever wrote a book concerning the enneagram...I would steer clear of always and nevers. :wink:
 

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I got my basic picture through a combination of Naranjo and Almaas, actually. I find it difficult to empathize with other types, and to convey the human dilemma in my own, without referring to a loss of an idealistic notion that is ironically still fixated upon. Imo, Almaas covers this issue the best of all sources I've seen, his student Maitri being a decent second option. It's not a very good starting point for self-reflection though.

On the other hand, diagnosis of the deeper pattern of problems is probably clearest by Naranjo's C&N. His correlations to MBTI and body types is laughable, and there are some questionable portraits, but despite that I find him more accurate than not for every type. The dry, possibly painful, way he explores the worst of each type is perhaps a recipe for rationalization and denial in those who read it though.

Still looking for a good introductory text. Of the little I've seen, the way Susan Rhodes lays out her work seems like a nice balance, due to the mindset of where Enneagram can be taken (if not particularly accurate about specific types). Only the first chapter of her books is online though.
 

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I found R&H a good starting point when I first started learning more about the Enneagram, though now that I've learnt more about the various types, I am not as sure if they're a good introduction anymore. What would be the best introduction for the Enneagram is a different question, however.

So I'm not sure who my favorite is. I do like how Naranjo really gets into the darker aspects of the types, but I'll admit that I find his writing pretty dense. That, and I don't think all his descriptions always hits home perfectly either, so I agree that it can be good to read different sources to get a decent understanding of the different types.
 

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occasionally he misses the mark big time, for example
- correlating type 7 with INTJ
What Naranjo quoted from INTJ seemed to fit type 7 well, actually. Such as the planning tendency (brainstormers) and “INTJs tend, ordinarily, to verbalize the positive and eschew comments of a negative nature.”


- correlating type 5 with ISTJ (there are a fair number of ISTJ 5w6s, but it's far more common in INTs)
Where does he correlate type 5 with ISTJ? In C&N I can only find him correlating type 5 with INTP.


- saying Social 8s are the only intellectual 8s (they're not going to sit discussing Plato's republic with you for 2 hours, but many Self Preservation 8, particularly 8w7, become well learned, strategic and cunning in their pursuit of power and material gain. your typical mastermind villain, if not a 6w5, is probably an Sp dom 8w7)
Strategic and cunning does not mean SP 8s are "intellectual." Intellectual is not the same thing as intelligent or street smart. And fictional "mastermind villains" are not good examples of genuine people. If there ever was a real life SP 8 mastermind villain I must not have taken note of them.


unctuousbutler said:
Some people call philosopher Slavoj Zizek a Sx eight...very intellectual (and lusty) guy.
I wouldn't type Zizek an SX 8. In fact I'm not even sure I would type him an 8, but if I did it would be SO 8. All 8s are "lusty" after all, and being so concerned with politics is usually a Social variant trait.


Inguz said:
One thing he did wrong was to mix up Sx4 and Sx6. In my experience, including what I have encountered when looking at my own motivations, when I look at the Sx4 description it is what I see as an Sx6. Anger and envy.
What? "Envy" is the passion of type 4 and "fear" is the passion of type 6, so why would "Anger and envy" be attributed to SX 6 and "turning against fear" (counterphobia) be attributed to SX 4? Makes no sense.


Dying Acedia said:
His correlations to MBTI and body types is laughable, and there are some questionable portraits, but despite that I find him more accurate than not for every type.
Why is his correlations with body types laughable? The correlation between body types and various psychological manifestations is well documented and a valid type of research in modern psychology. The enneagram divides types into body, heart, and head types and Sheldon similarly divides human bodies into types where, for example, ectomorphy is being focused on the nervous system and the brain. And there is a predominance of ectomorphy among the head types.
 

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What? "Envy" is the passion of type 4 and "fear" is the passion of type 6, so why would "Anger and envy" be attributed to SX 6 and "turning against fear" (counterphobia) be attributed to SX 4? Makes no sense.
Yet no one has been able to define the Sx 6 fear. 'Just' doing a 180 against fear? Fear of what? Anything? This is the mot trivial definition of the sexual 6 where all the aggression is simply -fear-. The competitive nature of the Sx instinct (be the one to fuck or you are a nobody) gives rise to aggressive behaviour regardless of type. The fear of not being attractive enough, seen enough, getting enough attention from the desired object is present in all the types Sx variant.

So what is the fear?
 

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Why is his correlations with body types laughable? The correlation between body types and various psychological manifestations is well documented and a valid type of research in modern psychology. The enneagram divides types into body, heart, and head types and Sheldon similarly divides human bodies into types where, for example, ectomorphy is being focused on the nervous system and the brain. And there is a predominance of ectomorphy among the head types.
Good stuff. I did a bit of research into temperaments & physical typologies. Fascinating stuff. Too bad they were discontinued.
 

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I got my basic picture through a combination of Naranjo and Almaas, actually. I find it difficult to empathize with other types, and to convey the human dilemma in my own, without referring to a loss of an idealistic notion that is ironically still fixated upon. Imo, Almaas covers this issue the best of all sources I've seen, his student Maitri being a decent second option. It's not a very good starting point for self-reflection though.

On the other hand, diagnosis of the deeper pattern of problems is probably clearest by Naranjo's C&N.
Maitri has some unique insights that neither Almaas nor Naranjo have. Both of those are up in the clouds somewhere and she is more down to earth. She has the sensibilities of a normal person. She knows what he/she experiences in real life. I find them all good.
 

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Before anyone too quick to doubt Naranjo, he's spent years and years counseling and studying people before and after he was introduced to the Enneagram. His knowledge base of actual cases is HUGE. That was why he was able to reach the depth and breath in C&N. I think it is unfortunate that the current quick fix mentality permeates the minds of most Enneagram students. With quick online tests and look ups, charts and a myriad of nomenclatures, people just switch symbols from one week to the next: 8w7/3w2/7w6 sp/sx/so to another set after a new bit of information. They're just inundated with information. Informed but never wise nor discerning.

I mean they start polls about what they like about each type (with wings) in real life... That's 18 categories, on top of that they claim to be able to distinguish so/sp/sx for each of them. That's 6 instinct stackings for each. 18x6 = 108 (not to mention the ridiculous 27 tri-types) That comes out to hundreds distinct types. And they can pinpoint that some body is a 8w7-6w5-4w3 sp/sx/so from just reading a few posts from that person? lol. Look at it again, that's 8 levels of unique distinctions (the "so" at the end doesn't count) We're talking about computer level of processing and bookkeeping. That's humanly impossible :)

Some of them don't even know 50 people in real life left alone hundreds enough to verify these hundreds of categories. Even the most basic of these "real life" claims are dubious, for example: do you even know enough people to spread over the 18 type-wing combinations? Any mistyping will throw your whole "experience" out the window because they will cause you to draw the wrong conclusion and the accuracy of any further typing is reduced.

What if you typed the first person wrong? What if you're wrong about typing a core type? Do you really know them that well? I mean the person you know best all your life is yourself, and you're not even sure of your core type. You keep changing time after time. Then how confident are you of another person's type? We're only talking about ONE person here, not 20 or 30 or however many you claim to know in real life to even have polls on.

The most respectable answer is "I don't know... I don't know enough about types in real life to draw such universal conclusions about them, it's gonna take me 20 years or so." People should stop making polls and start reading.
 

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Why is his correlations with body types laughable? The correlation between body types and various psychological manifestations is well documented and a valid type of research in modern psychology. The enneagram divides types into body, heart, and head types and Sheldon similarly divides human bodies into types where, for example, ectomorphy is being focused on the nervous system and the brain. And there is a predominance of ectomorphy among the head types.
I see. Perhaps it amounts to something on a large scale then. I haven't found it a good predictor of type, but if people are finding something to it perhaps it's more substantial than his MBTI correlations.

Maitri has some unique insights that neither Almaas nor Naranjo have. Both of those are up in the clouds somewhere and she is more down to earth. She has the sensibilities of a normal person. She knows what he/she experiences in real life. I find them all good.
Fair enough. As a source on Holy Ideas though, I think Almaas fairs better on his cloud.


Is Facets of Unity worth getting?
No, because you can find a disorganized form of the meat of his ideas here:

http://glossary.ahalmaas.com/phrases/558/definitions/1932

(Reverse-time quoting, but I'm already editting this =p)
 
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