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I was walking outside when I wanted to eat a Big Mac at the McDonald's. I was wondering why I have this feeling, and tried to release stress and anxiety that I might be having (stress causes cravings for sugar, while anxiety causes cravings for fat). While this improves, in that at times I no longer want the Big Mac, the idea of the Big Mac keeps coming back. So in my mind, I visualized myself buying a Big Mac and taking a bite out of it. This made me smile, and I realized that the images or desires for a Big Mac are there to remind me to smile and feel happy.

If you have any desires or wants for something, you can try visualize your satisfying the desire (you don't have to physically satisfy it), and feel happier as a result (happy enough to make you smile). Thank you for reading and your interest.
 

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I was walking outside when I wanted to eat a Big Mac at the McDonald's. I was wondering why I have this feeling, and tried to release stress and anxiety that I might be having (stress causes cravings for sugar, while anxiety causes cravings for fat). While this improves, in that at times I no longer want the Big Mac, the idea of the Big Mac keeps coming back. So in my mind, I visualized myself buying a Big Mac and taking a bite out of it. This made me smile, and I realized that the images or desires for a Big Mac are there to remind me to smile and feel happy.

If you have any desires or wants for something, you can try visualize your satisfying the desire (you don't have to physically satisfy it), and feel happier as a result (happy enough to make you smile). Thank you for reading and your interest.
You're on fire!
 
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Bad behaviour always starts in the mind, so be careful what you think. If you want to quit junk food, don't imagine eating it. If you don't want to cheat on your wife, don't imagine sex with other women.
 

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Bad behaviour always starts in the mind, so be careful what you think. If you want to quit junk food, don't imagine eating it. If you don't want to cheat on your wife, don't imagine sex with other women.
I don't quite agree on this. When you think alone about anything, illegal, immoral and/or very badly seen by the society, if you want to realise it, you need a social/cultural and a technical structure which allows you to. The content of our thoughts, mainly conscious through the words, and the meanings behind them, do not come out of the blue. They're socialy and culturaly informed, the idea of social construction is at play here, so your thoughts are not quite your own, even if there're no technological and no apparent social supervision of them. So your desires and actions are within the dynamics of the society, there's a continuity and individuals are just part of the flow, the vehicle through what illegal and immoral actions are made.

The subject, us, as individual with a will, aren't as free and autonomous as we want it to be. More often that we want it to be, to feel free to do something, is actually to be inside a social determinations, so much within it, that we stop to notice that we're actually doing what the society want us to do, even our emotions are synchronised to those social determination, the best example being shame. Eating junk food or to cheat with your partner is a feature of our culture, or subculture, as both case concern more men than women.

Think about doing them and try to feel the emotions which comes with it, if you don't feel bad emotions about them, you're in the flow. If you feel emptiness, it may means you're fleeing the emotions which should connect you to your current situation or the projected situation, you're not grounded. If you feel shame, it probably means that you're taught that you weren't meant to do those things. If you feel rejection or repulsion, it means you're awfully comfortable in your current situation, that you give yourself the rights to laugh and insult the ones who do those things. If you're sad, it may mean that you have connection with one situation or the other.
 

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I don't quite agree on this. When you think alone about anything, illegal, immoral and/or very badly seen by the society, if you want to realise it, you need a social/cultural and a technical structure which allows you to. The content of our thoughts, mainly conscious through the words, and the meanings behind them, do not come out of the blue. They're socialy and culturaly informed, the idea of social construction is at play here, so your thoughts are not quite your own, even if there're no technological and no apparent social supervision of them. So your desires and actions are within the dynamics of the society, there's a continuity and individuals are just part of the flow, the vehicle through what illegal and immoral actions are made.

The subject, us, as individual with a will, aren't as free and autonomous as we want it to be. More often that we want it to be, to feel free to do something, is actually to be inside a social determinations, so much within it, that we stop to notice that we're actually doing what the society want us to do, even our emotions are synchronised to those social determination, the best example being shame. Eating junk food or to cheat with your partner is a feature of our culture, or subculture, as both case concern more men than women.

Think about doing them and try to feel the emotions which comes with it, if you don't feel bad emotions about them, you're in the flow. If you feel emptiness, it may means you're fleeing the emotions which should connect you to your current situation or the projected situation, you're not grounded. If you feel shame, it probably means that you're taught that you weren't meant to do those things. If you feel rejection or repulsion, it means you're awfully comfortable in your current situation, that you give yourself the rights to laugh and insult the ones who do those things. If you're sad, it may mean that you have connection with one situation or the other.
If this were the case, noone would be able to rebel against society.

Of course large part of human behaviour is learned behaviour, but one shouldn't disregard the genetic component. We are born with the capacity to learn, but also to learn specific things. Shame is also a natural reaction, for example defecating in public would make every human being ashamed, regardless of eir cultural background. Ideologies and cultures which are too remote from natural human traits, like Shakerism, die off quite soon.
 

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If this were the case, noone would be able to rebel against society.

Of course large part of human behaviour is learned behaviour, but one shouldn't disregard the genetic component. We are born with the capacity to learn, but also to learn specific things. Shame is also a natural reaction, for example defecating in public would make every human being ashamed, regardless of eir cultural background. Ideologies and cultures which are too remote from natural human traits, like Shakerism, die off quite soon.
Do you feel like the people are rebellious against the society? I'm mostly confronted with people accepting their fate, shouting against everything and everyone, some with more coherence than others, at the end of the day, and then returning back to their everyday life. I do this, I don't go on strike or anything.

That's really funny that after you just say that, if I was right, there would be no rebellion, you then go on the "of course", to actually defend the idea we shouldn't be rebellious regarding "human nature". Oh damn, what a rebellious thinking.

I'm for permanent and international revolution, I'm quite aware that we can rebel against society, that's what I want, but like any scientist, I have to know with what I'm dealing with if I actually want to have any grasp on it and control it toward a shared goal, simply said, a better world. And no, we're not more free than we're determined by the social structure, the social structure is the community, it's our only freedom. Have you ever heard of kings or queen doing a revolution against their own power? Yeah, it's absurd, but to see the people rebel against the current power, that's less absurd. Those people are most of the time at the margin of the concentration of power, and everyone who is at the margin will soon or later, gain more power by accepting the rules, and moving in the hierarchy like intended, or they will make a revolution. Are you ready to accept every change proposed by the marginalised minorities? Even I couldn't agree that cheerfully with the idea, I would want a debate, a democracy where the concerns of the people could be stated, the rules changed, to calm down any rebellion and to include every oppressed minorities as peacefully as we can, and with some scientific knowledge on top of that. But that require an actual democracy where the distribution of political power would be equal, and I want that badly, but do you?

The only freedom we can have, isn't to get out of our chain, the society, but to have none being able to pull more than anybody else, even the most fragile human being. To give political power equally. And my statements were just to warn anyone from an indivdualistic point of view on freedom which would be blind to social determinations. When you organize a strike, you require a social bond with everyone involved, to be able to do that, people require some form of distance on their life, and to see how they're actually socialy determined, when they see that they're determined in such a way that it doesn't fit their interests, then you can set a new goal through a new defined social determination. That's how I see it.

On Shakerism, this sounds cooler than I expected, I'm an atheist so all those things regarding religion and spirituality isn't my thing. It looks that they have been outcompete by the industries exploiting workers. If there's such thing as "human nature", which I don't believe at all, capitalism is very much more remote from it than the Shakers.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Bad behaviour always starts in the mind, so be careful what you think. If you want to quit junk food, don't imagine eating it. If you don't want to cheat on your wife, don't imagine sex with other women.
I realize the Big Mac is "junk food", so didn't buy it, though it is not the point. The point is that the Big Mac is there to remind you to smile, and experience happiness that made you smile. Many people eat whatever they want, though do not smile when they eat, causing them to eat more of whatever they want. This can make them fatter as a result.

If you get images of that you want to do something, like buying a Big Mac, or ordering ice cream, you have to ask why, instead of just buying that something. Often, this is just telling you smile and be happy, instead of physically acting out.
 

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I was walking outside when I wanted to eat a Big Mac at the McDonald's. I was wondering why I have this feeling, and tried to release stress and anxiety that I might be having (stress causes cravings for sugar, while anxiety causes cravings for fat). While this improves, in that at times I no longer want the Big Mac, the idea of the Big Mac keeps coming back. So in my mind, I visualized myself buying a Big Mac and taking a bite out of it. This made me smile, and I realized that the images or desires for a Big Mac are there to remind me to smile and feel happy.

If you have any desires or wants for something, you can try visualize your satisfying the desire (you don't have to physically satisfy it), and feel happier as a result (happy enough to make you smile). Thank you for reading and your interest.
I don't eat mac and cheese every day, maybe once a month. My double-baked mac and cheese is probably my drug of choice. I can also do a good buttermilk fried chicken that's mouth-watering. Though hands down some great Mexican Tacos that are authentic could also be another drug of choice. I limit my consumption and I'm on a health kick but yeah visualizing myself eating them does not prevent my cravings from happening. I have a very active imagination it most likely will increase those cravings until I'm visualizing your arm as a drum stick and start knawing on it.

If you're able to do it, that's impressive and something to smile about.

Though honestly, I believe in free will, if someone has a desire to do something and it doesn't harm any other bystanders, I say let them have at it. I'm not going to guilt-trip anyone on their choices of food. That even goes towards Vegans. It's your body, you only live once so enjoy it.

I thought I would wish I had that control but after thinking about it... NAH. I'm happy with my eating habits.

I realize the Big Mac is "junk food", so didn't buy it, though it is not the point. The point is that the Big Mac is there to remind you to smile, and experience happiness that made you smile. Many people eat whatever they want, though do not smile when they eat, causing them to eat more of whatever they want. This can make them fatter as a result.
Food can bring me great joy. Like three-starred Michelin restaurants to a good food truck and I'm like, yes, this might be heaven. Big mac never brings me any type of joy. Now a double-decked out cheeseburger from Whataburger with jalapenos on it. Yazzzzz.
 

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If you have any desires or wants for something, you can try visualize your satisfying the desire (you don't have to physically satisfy it), and feel happier as a result (happy enough to make you smile). Thank you for reading and your interest.
Tbh, that would backfire on me and just make me more upset that I don't actually have it.
 

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I don't eat mac and cheese every day, maybe once a month. My double-baked mac and cheese is probably my drug of choice. I can also do a good buttermilk fried chicken that's mouth-watering. Though hands down some great Mexican Tacos that our authentic could also be another drug of choice. I limit my consumption and I'm on a health kick but yeah visualizing myself eating them does not prevent my cravings from happening. I have a very active imagination it most likely will increase those cravings until I'm visualizing your arm as a drum stick and start knawing on it.

If you're able to do it, that's impressive and something to smile about.

Though honestly, I believe in free will, if someone has a desire to do something and it doesn't harm any other bystanders, I say let them have at it. I'm not going to guilt-trip anyone on their choices of food. That even goes towards Vegans. It's your body, you only live once so enjoy it.

I thought I would wish I had that control but after thinking about it... NAH. I'm happy with my eating habits.



Food can bring me great joy. Like three-starred Michelin restaurants to a good food truck and I'm like, yes, this might be heaven. Big mac never brings me any type of joy. Now a double-decked out cheeseburger from Whataburger with jalapenos on it. Yazzzzz.
Young lady, you sure are sum-buddy. Your down-to-earth presentation was a joy to my heart. I appreciate your caloric candor.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Tbh, that would backfire on me and just make me more upset that I don't actually have it.
It's about satisfying what you want in a way that brings lasting relief. Instead of satisfying it every time you think about it, you can ask why you want it, and it could just be a way to make you smile (instead of eat).
 

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Do you feel like the people are rebellious against the society? I'm mostly confronted with people accepting their fate, shouting against everything and everyone, some with more coherence than others, at the end of the day, and then returning back to their everyday life. I do this, I don't go on strike or anything.
Weren't romantics back in the 19th century rebellious against their society? Aren't there some rebellious subcultures today? Some people are rebellious in some ways and quite conformist in other. A teenage hooligan who rebels against his parents might be completely obedient to some leader of a youth gang.

Of course it requires courage to be real rebel, so there are not many ones. Even in places like North Korea, where conditions of living are truly intolerable.

That's really funny that after you just say that, if I was right, there would be no rebellion, you then go on the "of course", to actually defend the idea we shouldn't be rebellious regarding "human nature". Oh damn, what a rebellious thinking.
We can and do rebel against nature. The upshot of these rebellions is just what you call society. We rebel against nature when we refuse to express anger by means of violence, or sexual desire by means of rape, or when we start treating strangers like kinsmen. Peace and civility are quite unnatural. Then some leaders and institutions go further, and want some people to never get angry at all (like a good call centre agent), or to never have sex (like a Catholic priest). This is too much, our nature cannot withstand it. The result of having to adapt is a psychological ailment called oversocialization:
https://freedomisknowledge.com/otw/isaif/04oversocialization.html

So, as you see, I define freedom as acting on your natural impulses. Then freedom of self-expression must be balanced with morality, so there are indeed two contradictory goals to be pursued. For this reason humans cannot have perfect freedom, but there is a genuine difference between a relatively free society like modern America and a tyrannical culture like Saudi Arabia.

Going back to the Big Mac, sometimes socialization imposes on us some cravings which are neither natural nor wholesome, like desire to eat junk food. To suppress these unnatural desires makes us more free, and once we overcome them we indeed feel freer, like some people who have overcome perverted sexual desires. One reformed former paedophile said that he felt like hearing angels singing when he made love to his new wife for the first time.

On Shakerism, this sounds cooler than I expected, I'm an atheist so all those things regarding religion and spirituality isn't my thing. It looks that they have been outcompete by the industries exploiting workers. If there's such thing as "human nature", which I don't believe at all, capitalism is very much more remote from it than the Shakers.
Do you really think compulsory permanent celibacy for all members is cool?

But that require an actual democracy where the distribution of political power would be equal, and I want that badly, but do you?
Yes, I support democracy, though 100% direct democracy is problematic, I prefer liquid democracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy

But democracy is not a panacea for all ailments, the conflict between self-expression and morality, between the desires of the individual and his duty to society still exists and always will, unless humans become eusocial creatures.
 

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Weren't romantics back in the 19th century rebellious against their society? Aren't there some rebellious subcultures today? Some people are rebellious in some ways and quite conformist in other. A teenage hooligan who rebels against his parents might be completely obedient to some leader of a youth gang.

Of course it requires courage to be real rebel, so there are not many ones. Even in places like North Korea, where conditions of living are truly intolerable.
I agree

We can and do rebel against nature. The upshot of these rebellions is just what you call society. We rebel against nature when we refuse to express anger by means of violence, or sexual desire by means of rape, or when we start treating strangers like kinsmen. Peace and civility are quite unnatural. Then some leaders and institutions go further, and want some people to never get angry at all (like a good call centre agent), or to never have sex (like a Catholic priest). This is too much, our nature cannot withstand it. The result of having to adapt is a psychological ailment called oversocialization:
https://freedomisknowledge.com/otw/isaif/04oversocialization.html

So, as you see, I define freedom as acting on your natural impulses. Then freedom of self-expression must be balanced with morality, so there are indeed two contradictory goals to be pursued. For this reason humans cannot have perfect freedom, but there is a genuine difference between a relatively free society like modern America and a tyrannical culture like Saudi Arabia.

Going back to the Big Mac, sometimes socialization imposes on us some cravings which are neither natural nor wholesome, like desire to eat junk food. To suppress these unnatural desires makes us more free, and once we overcome them we indeed feel freer, like some people who have overcome perverted sexual desires. One reformed former paedophile said that he felt like hearing angels singing when he made love to his new wife for the first time.
Well :), typical modernism, there's the society in one side, and nature on the other, and we need to make a balance between those two opposite poles which make a tension. If the tension is to much, society collapse. If the tension is not enough, the society become an undercivilized society of animals.

What about the hypothesis that nature is social? And the society is natural? I don't feel that much of a tension between my "nature" and the society. And I could use my own experience as an example, I'm a trans woman, what's the goal of my "nature", what is the goal of the society? Is my nature as a person born male to stay a male, having kids the "natural" way. But I'm actually feeling a deep tension that's not what I'm supposed to do, that I should be more like female. But maybe we should include our brain in our conception of what is natural, cause my well functionning physiology, regarding sexuality, is in tension with what my brain is saying, and better be sterile with a brain, than a sexual functionning body without brain. So let's say, I'm "naturally" inclined to be a trans woman, or an "artificial" eunuch if hormonal treatment weren't available. So my tension within myself is gone, I'm reconciliate with my "nature".

Let's see if there's a tension between the "nature" of trans people and the society, well, there's, so transphobic people would be "oversocialised" and they're feeling a tension between themselves and "nature". But nope, cause they're not living what we trans people are living, it doesn't feel "natural" what we're going through. So the tension comes from what is deemed "natural", and what isn't? Who is to judge?

As you can notice, speech about "nature" is just a justification. Nature in itself has no goals, we're forcing, as a society, what are the goals of "nature". It could be God for all I care, but the problem isn't resolved at all. Sciences, and thus the methodology to obtain an objectivity, is there to state on the current situation and to say, when you want to achieve this or that goal, here is the best mean to succeed. They can't objectively say what should be our goals, or what are the goals of "nature", or of God.

From there, I would go on to know what are your goals, goals that are socially determined by who you are in the society. So those goals would be social constructions far from any objectivity, just an interested set of projection so you think you'll have a better life if we apply this set of projection. And I would be the oversocialized leftist who is socializing everything or whatever. Problem, I'm not quite what the society want me to be, I don't have a job, I'm going to live in alternative community where no profit can be made, I'll take hormonal treatment and ask to adopt kids, while asking to be refund cause there're no reason why I should be poorer because of my psychological condition of a trans person. I won't privatize the music I compose, I don't even have paper which could prove that I'm able to do anything particular. And maybe, I'll even go through a time where the state will have to give me money so I can live and feed myself

That's seems the person who fit perfectly what the society want, no, and I won't go on that I'm a rebel or anything, I don't want to be in that situation, I didn't want to have depression and anxiety cause of my transidentity, I didn't wanted to fail my studies. I'm forced to find a place to belong outside of what was socially determined as born male, white, "hetero", middle class, cultural bourgeoisie, valid and of an european country. I'm not for revolution cause I'm a free thinker, I'm for revolution, cause the people who are like me have far harder time to find a place to belong in this society.

And it's funny, this concept of oversocialization, because it goes back to the sociologist Émile Durkheim, this was supposed to be a sociological concept, not a psychological one. And, on the vein of the sociological works, it defines more the people on the right, cause the problematisation of the tension within a society, is between the old order and the new order. As such, an oversocialized person is someone who believe so much in the old ways of doing thing that this person is unable to conform to the new way of doing things, what is actually happening, not what is in their head. For example, to include more women and LGBTQIA+ and people of color in the high stratas of the society. But at the same time we could include the leftist who are so high in the abstract thinking of leftist ideologies, that they, too, stop to see the contradictions between what they think, and the consequences of their actions.

This problem, to confound the objects of the logic, and the logic of the objects, (the map and the territory, in other words, even if we never can really see the territory as it is, but approximation through the maps,) is exactly the subject of a big book I began to read from the sociologist Pierre Bourdieu. But that's what interest me and what I want to bring to my political stance, and of others, if they allow me. But I'll still hold that we can manage with abstract leftists, barely sometimes, but abstract right-wing, and most right-wing ideologies go to disaster, or at least no decent future for the people like me, but ecology isn't very right-wing, so there's that too.

Do you really think compulsory permanent celibacy for all members is cool?
Yeah, well, not that part :D.

Yes, I support democracy, though 100% direct democracy is problematic, I prefer liquid democracy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_democracy

But democracy is not a panacea for all ailments, the conflict between self-expression and morality, between the desires of the individual and his duty to society still exists and always will, unless humans become eusocial creatures.
Okay, not so much problem with that, and the following statement.
 
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