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Discussion Starter #1
I'm not sure if I've ever met a female INTJ before. I do think they are out there, and a lot of the girls posting as INTJ do seem to fit the part sometimes but, if I'm being honest, I still reserve doubts about most of them. I know my experiences are subjective. I'm wondering if there are some key differences between INTJ females and INTJ males that make them so hard for me to find. A thought just flashed back to a college engineering course (24 males 1 female) This is common.
A couple points. I remember a study on childhood brain development showing that girls develop facial recognition synapses in the brain much earlier, faster, and completely than their dumb boy counterparts too busy eating ants (discovering the meaning of life). On the same note males have more development in the synapses associated with the rational thinking areas of the brain.
I would suggest that this could imply that when a female has INTJ preferences the development of the Fe synapses in the brain that is more developed in females like the facial recognition synapses makes them a little more INFJ like (even though they can still have INTJ preferences) The same could be true for INFJ males of course but to me, they don't resemble INTJs at all.
Id love to hear your thoughts. Especially from my INTJ sisters. Also, any differences you think there are between INTJ males and females.
Yes, women (and men) are under a lot of gender role pressure in our society, but there are also a lot of studies indicating a strong genetic component as well.
 

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Can you cite the studies?

I don't think women are genetically inclined toward Fe/feeling areas/whatever you want to call them. But if anything, INTJ females (T females in general) are likely to be the "deviations" from that "norm".

For example, when I was young, I was terrible at facial expressions and the like.

However I can definitely state that there is a lot of social pressure (well there was for me) to act "feminine"/ "super-empathetic". This probably leads to INTJ females being more demonstratively empathetic than most INTJ males (during youth at least). Also there's the whole "females are submissive/reserved" pressure. So I think INTJ females are less likely to demonstrate their INTJ-ness as opposed to males (although plenty will demonstrate their intelligence). Again, this might be due to my geographic location (southern US).
 

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I'm not sure if I've ever met a female INTJ before. I do think they are out there, and a lot of the girls posting as INTJ do seem to fit the part sometimes but, if I'm being honest, I still reserve doubts about most of them. I know my experiences are subjective. I'm wondering if there are some key differences between INTJ females and INTJ males that make them so hard for me to find. A thought just flashed back to a college engineering course (24 males 1 female) This is common.
A couple points. I remember a study on childhood brain development showing that girls develop facial recognition synapses in the brain much earlier, faster, and completely than their dumb boy counterparts too busy eating ants (discovering the meaning of life). On the same note males have more development in the synapses associated with the rational thinking areas of the brain.
I would suggest that this could imply that when a female has INTJ preferences the development of the Fe synapses in the brain that is more developed in females like the facial recognition synapses makes them a little more INFJ like (even though they can still have INTJ preferences) The same could be true for INFJ males of course but to me, they don't resemble INTJs at all.
Id love to hear your thoughts. Especially from my INTJ sisters. Also, any differences you think there are between INTJ males and females.
Yes, women (and men) are under a lot of gender role pressure in our society, but there are also a lot of studies indicating a strong genetic component as well.
Cite some studies, sir - because your conjectures are far off from my experienced reality.

And firstly, you're doing it wrong. You have a subjective perception and you are building a hypothesis to fit that perception.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Can you cite the studies?

I don't know that all women are genetically inclined toward Fe/feeling areas/whatever you want to call them. If anything, INTJ females (T females in general) are likely to be the "deviations" from that "norm".

For example, when I was young, I was terrible at facial expressions and the like.

However I can definitely state that there is a lot of social pressure (well there was for me) to act "feminine"/ "super-empathetic". This probably leads to INTJ females being more demonstratively empathetic than most INTJ males. Also there's the whole "females are submissive/reserved" pressure. So I think INTJ females are less likely to demonstrate their INTJ-ness. Again, this might be due to my geographic location (southern US).
I will site the study in a later post. I would love to have a fellow INTJ poke holes in it. I hope that Im not offensive, or come across as sexist. And oh yes the South! I can only imagine what that would be like for an INTJ wonan. But it might not be that bad. The southern female respect thing might have its charms.
Im not saying you mistyped yourself at all, but there are a few INFJs girls I know who think they are INTJs. And my theory is this. Im wondering if these confused INFJs arent just using a lot more Ti.
Lets look at the INFJ cognitive functions real quick.

Ni
Fe
Ti
Se

Now imagine an INFJ who had a much greater tendency to introvert than other Other less introverted INFJs.
We could have an INFJ who doesn't extravert much at all. Then they would be using mostly Ni and Ti combined with just a little Fe and Se. And bingo, your thinking INFJ! :)

Also of course there would be deviations from the norm and it was just a quick thought, mostly because Ive been having trouble finding an INTJ female. I'll get the study but there are a lot more showing genetic components to gender differences and brain development.
I think of it like this. Most men are taller than most women. This is genetic of course. It would be impossible to argue that cultural pressure makes females statistically shorter. However, there are plenty of men who are shorter than a lot of girls. :)
 

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I will site the study in a later post. I would love to have a fellow INTJ poke holes in it. I hope that Im not offensive, or come across as sexist. And oh yes the South! I can only imagine what that would be like for an INTJ wonan. But it might not be that bad. The southern female respect thing might have its charms.
Im not saying you mistyped yourself at all, but there are a few INFJs girls I know who think they are INTJs. And my theory is this. Im wondering if these confused INFJs arent just using a lot more Ti.
Lets look at the INFJ cognitive functions real quick.

Ni
Fe
Ti
Se

Now imagine an INFJ who had a much greater tendency to introvert than other Other less introverted INFJs.
We could have an INFJ who doesn't extravert much at all. Then they would be using mostly Ni and Ti combined with just a little Fe and Se. And bingo, your thinking INFJ! :)

Also of course there would be deviations from the norm and it was just a quick thought, mostly because Ive been having trouble finding an INTJ female. I'll get the study but there are a lot more showing genetic components to gender differences and brain development.
I think of it like this. Most men are taller than most women. This is genetic of course. It would be impossible to argue that cultural pressure makes females statistically shorter. However, there are plenty of men who are shorter than a lot of girls. :)
I question your INTJness, because your typos are egregious. Ti is absolutely foreign to INTJs, and feels like too much work. Wouldn't you think that we've explored the cognitive functions?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
@ Being
Im not claiming objectivity or scientific method. I am stating a thought I had. i don't expect you to agree. I didn't know I could do that wrong. Lol...
But I'd like to hear some other subjective thoughts of course.
 

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@INeverJustThink Charms, maybe. Worth, barely. :p Thankfully I was able to break out of some of the narrower mindsets here.

Plenty of INFJs mistype as INTJs for that reason, so yeah I see what you're saying. It's rare for the reverse to happen, because of Fe and as @Being said, Ti. Although based purely on the functions INFJ girls will tend to be a lot more animated than an INTJ girl would (Fe and all that).

Your hypothesis could be true, but there's not a lot of evidence to support it at this point in time, at least not any that I've seen. Studies like Baron-Cohen's (minus the somewhat careless setup)-in which he tested newborns' attention toward non-human things vs human faces- I would love to see repeated.

Also keep in mind that INTJ women are rare. Even if there are some in your area, you may not be in the same circles, which makes finding one pretty difficult.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I question your INTJness, because your typos are egregious. Ti is absolutely foreign to INTJs, and feels like too much work. Wouldn't you think that we've explored the cognitive functions?
Wouldn't you think that we've explored the cognitive functions?
Who are you referring to as we. If we is every person who has typed themself then I guess the answer is no. No, I dont think everyone who has ever typed themself as an INTJ has explored the cognitive functions carefully.
Am I saying you are not INTJ? Absolutely not.
What does this have to do with my post?
 

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@INeverJustThink, they are easy to spot. They'll rant at you if you try to argue with them and they say all the arsy things that you suppress to fit in with your little friends :) At least that's what it's like with my male INTJ colleague and me.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
@Priva thanks for being open minded and getting past the judgement that might make you think my thoughts cone from narrow mindedness or sexism. They really don't at all. I believe in strivibg for equality and equal opportunity fir everyone.

From all the requests, here are some studies and sources for those willing to keep an open mind. ;-)


http://mentalhealth.about.com/library/sci/0701/blapabrain701.htm

To recognize faces and identify facial expression, both with equal skill, pre-pubescent boys use more of their right brain and pre-pubescent girls use more of their left brain.

[8] Golan, O, Baron-Cohen, S, & Hill, J, J, (2006) The Cambridge Mindreading (CAM) Face-Voice Battery: testing complex emotion recognition in adults with and without Asperger Syndrome. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 36, 169-183.

Research on one-day-old babies has found that boys look longer at a mechanical mobile while girls look longer at a face. This, as well as the effects of fetal testosterone on later behavior, is argued to be evidence against the sex differences being only due to socialization.

** The Oxford Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology, Edited by Robin Dunbar and Louise Barret, Oxford University Press, 2007, Chapter 16 The evolution of empathizing and systemizing: assortative mating of two strong systemizers and the cause of autism, Simon Baron-Cohen.

The Minds of Girls
The following are some of the characteristics of girls' brains:
A girl's corpus callosum (the connecting bundle of tissues between hemispheres) is, on average, larger than a boy's—up to 25 percent larger by adolescence. This enables more “cross talk” between hemispheres in the female brain.
Girls have, in general, stronger neural connectors in their temporal lobes than boys have. These connectors lead to more sensually detailed memory storage, better listening skills, and better discrimination among the various tones of voice. This leads, among other things, to greater use of detail in writing assignments.
The hippocampus (another memory storage area in the brain) is larger in girls than in boys, increasing girls' learning advantage, especially in the language arts.
Girls' prefrontal cortex is generally more active than boys' and develops at earlier ages. For this reason, girls tend to make fewer impulsive decisions than boys do. Further, girls have more serotonin in the bloodstream and the brain, which makes them biochemically less impulsive.
Girls generally use more cortical areas of their brains for verbal and emotive functioning. Boys tend to use more cortical areas of the brain for spatial and mechanical functioning (Moir & Jessel, 1989; Rich, 2000).

Minds of Boys
Because boys' brains have more cortical areas dedicated to spatial-mechanical functioning, males use, on average, half the brain space that females use for verbal-emotive functioning. The cortical trend toward spatial-mechanical functioning makes many boys want to move objects through space, like balls, model airplanes, or just their arms and legs. Most boys, although not all of them, will experience words and feelings differently than girls do (Blum, 1997; Moir & Jessel, 1989).
Boys not only have less serotonin than girls have, but they also have less oxytocin, the primary human bonding chemical. This makes it more likely that they will be physically impulsive and less likely that they will neurally combat their natural impulsiveness to sit still and empathically chat with a friend (Moir & Jessel, 1989; Taylor, 2002).
Boys lateralize brain activity. Their brains not only operate with less blood flow than girls' brains, but they are also structured to compartmentalize learning. Thus, girls tend to multitask better than boys do, with fewer attention span problems and greater ability to make quick transitions between lessons (Havers, 1995).
The male brain is set to renew, recharge, and reorient itself by entering what neurologists call a rest state. The boy in the back of the classroom whose eyes are drifting toward sleep has entered a neural rest state. It is predominantly boys who drift off without completing assignments, who stop taking notes and fall asleep during a lecture, or who tap pencils or otherwise fidget in hopes of keeping themselves awake and learning. Females tend to recharge and reorient neural focus without rest states. Thus, a girl can be bored with a lesson, but she will nonetheless keep her eyes open, take notes, and perform relatively well. This is especially true when the teacher uses more words to teach a lesson instead of being spatial and diagrammatic. The more words a teacher uses, the more likely boys are to “zone out,” or go into rest state. The male brain is better suited for symbols, abstractions, diagrams, pictures, and objects moving through space than for the monotony of words (Gurian, 2001).

Gurian, M., Henley, P., & Trueman, T. (2001). Boys and girls learn differently! A guide for teachers and parents. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass/John Wiley.

Havers, F. (1995). Rhyming tasks male and female brains differently. The Yale Herald, Inc. New Haven, CT: Yale University.

Moir, A., & Jessel, D. (1989). Brain sex: The real difference between men and women. New York: Dell Publishing.

Also, Steven Pinker's book "The Blank Slate" has a lot of infirmation and studies on brain development and gender.

Also here is a decent youtube video where Steven Pinker sites multiple studies for genetic components to brain development.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1GexZF5VIMU&desktop_uri=/watch?v=1GexZF5VIMU
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The whole Carl Jung theory comes from what we tend to pay attention to and what information we tend to pass into long term memory.
The brain can only take in and pay attention to so many things at once. Gender differences about the brain and how we process and store information a very relevant here.
I would be very curious if someone did similar type studies on people who typed themselves with certain Jungian preferences to see if the gender differences from the overall averages still apply.
 

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@INeverJustThink
Thanks for the links. I'll google those/see if I can find the actual data. What's usually the case is that there's often more variation within the groups than among them. Other things to keep in mind are that: 1. Even toddlers have some exposure to gender roles, so it's difficult to determine nature/nurture to a high degree of confidence outside of infancy, really. 2. Different levels of hormones affect the genders differently. Point: nurture is incredibly linked to the brain; for the forseeable future, it's gonna be *really* hard to discern nature/nurture, rendering these studies fairly useless when it comes to proving innate differences(for now at least). Still we can use them to see that many men think "x way" and many women think "y way," and whether this is innate or not, it can be kept in mind.

One must remember however that it's usually not wise to generalize too much, since many traits do overlap between genders. But I'm pretty sure 99% of people with a brain already know that.

Anyway the only study I'm familiar with from those listed was the one with the infants. First off when you look at the data (http://www.math.kth.se/matstat/gru/5b1501/F/sex.pdf) you see that 1. Most females "preferred" neither stimulus and 2. 19 males "preferred" the mobile while 14 had no "preference". That's not a huge preference in and of itself. Other problems:
the stimuli weren't presented simultaneously; the researcher knew the genders of the infants, which could have inadvertently caused bias; iirc, a study like this hasn't been replicated.
 

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When I was doing personality tests and filling out my prac books for stats on students I buggered up nearly every bell curve for my group (along with my male INTJ prac partner).

We may seem mythical because we are so rare but the rules to women in general don't seem to apply. We are rare types.

The differences between the males and females that are noticeable on the forum is that they use the gender identification tag a little more than women. Other subtle things like preferences for NFs seem more male than female but it's really neither here nor there as everyone is all over the shop.
 

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@Priva thanks for being open minded and getting past the judgement that might make you think my thoughts cone from narrow mindedness or sexism. They really don't at all. I believe in strivibg for equality and equal opportunity fir everyone.

From all the requests, here are some studies and sources for those willing to keep an open mind. ;-)


Boys' and Girls' Brains Process Faces and Expressions Differently

To recognize faces and identify facial expression, both with equal skill, pre-pubescent boys use more of their right brain and pre-pubescent girls use more of their left brain.

[8] Golan, O, Baron-Cohen, S, & Hill, J, J, (2006) The Cambridge Mindreading (CAM) Face-Voice Battery: testing complex emotion recognition in adults with and without Asperger Syndrome. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 36, 169-183.

Research on one-day-old babies has found that boys look longer at a mechanical mobile while girls look longer at a face. This, as well as the effects of fetal testosterone on later behavior, is argued to be evidence against the sex differences being only due to socialization.

** The Oxford Handbook of Evolutionary Psychology, Edited by Robin Dunbar and Louise Barret, Oxford University Press, 2007, Chapter 16 The evolution of empathizing and systemizing: assortative mating of two strong systemizers and the cause of autism, Simon Baron-Cohen.

The Minds of Girls
The following are some of the characteristics of girls' brains:
A girl's corpus callosum (the connecting bundle of tissues between hemispheres) is, on average, larger than a boy's—up to 25 percent larger by adolescence. This enables more “cross talk” between hemispheres in the female brain.
Girls have, in general, stronger neural connectors in their temporal lobes than boys have. These connectors lead to more sensually detailed memory storage, better listening skills, and better discrimination among the various tones of voice. This leads, among other things, to greater use of detail in writing assignments.
The hippocampus (another memory storage area in the brain) is larger in girls than in boys, increasing girls' learning advantage, especially in the language arts.
Girls' prefrontal cortex is generally more active than boys' and develops at earlier ages. For this reason, girls tend to make fewer impulsive decisions than boys do. Further, girls have more serotonin in the bloodstream and the brain, which makes them biochemically less impulsive.
Girls generally use more cortical areas of their brains for verbal and emotive functioning. Boys tend to use more cortical areas of the brain for spatial and mechanical functioning (Moir & Jessel, 1989; Rich, 2000).

Minds of Boys
Because boys' brains have more cortical areas dedicated to spatial-mechanical functioning, males use, on average, half the brain space that females use for verbal-emotive functioning. The cortical trend toward spatial-mechanical functioning makes many boys want to move objects through space, like balls, model airplanes, or just their arms and legs. Most boys, although not all of them, will experience words and feelings differently than girls do (Blum, 1997; Moir & Jessel, 1989).
Boys not only have less serotonin than girls have, but they also have less oxytocin, the primary human bonding chemical. This makes it more likely that they will be physically impulsive and less likely that they will neurally combat their natural impulsiveness to sit still and empathically chat with a friend (Moir & Jessel, 1989; Taylor, 2002).
Boys lateralize brain activity. Their brains not only operate with less blood flow than girls' brains, but they are also structured to compartmentalize learning. Thus, girls tend to multitask better than boys do, with fewer attention span problems and greater ability to make quick transitions between lessons (Havers, 1995).
The male brain is set to renew, recharge, and reorient itself by entering what neurologists call a rest state. The boy in the back of the classroom whose eyes are drifting toward sleep has entered a neural rest state. It is predominantly boys who drift off without completing assignments, who stop taking notes and fall asleep during a lecture, or who tap pencils or otherwise fidget in hopes of keeping themselves awake and learning. Females tend to recharge and reorient neural focus without rest states. Thus, a girl can be bored with a lesson, but she will nonetheless keep her eyes open, take notes, and perform relatively well. This is especially true when the teacher uses more words to teach a lesson instead of being spatial and diagrammatic. The more words a teacher uses, the more likely boys are to “zone out,” or go into rest state. The male brain is better suited for symbols, abstractions, diagrams, pictures, and objects moving through space than for the monotony of words (Gurian, 2001).

Gurian, M., Henley, P., & Trueman, T. (2001). Boys and girls learn differently! A guide for teachers and parents. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass/John Wiley.

Havers, F. (1995). Rhyming tasks male and female brains differently. The Yale Herald, Inc. New Haven, CT: Yale University.

Moir, A., & Jessel, D. (1989). Brain sex: The real difference between men and women. New York: Dell Publishing.

Also, Steven Pinker's book "The Blank Slate" has a lot of infirmation and studies on brain development and gender.

Also here is a decent youtube video where Steven Pinker sites multiple studies for genetic components to brain development.

1 of 4 Steven Pinker - Jews, Genes and Intelligence - YouTube
This is all quite interesting. The only thing I question about studies like this is the extent to which they serve the ideological needs of the culture in which they occur. The sum of these studies can in general be the following: girls generally function better (read more adaptable, more empathetic, more socially acceptable) than boys. This isn't to say boys can't have their strong points, but girls have special strengths, and have been held down in the past by gender typing. In academia, there is a strong belief in this position ideologically.

However, what if the opposite position was held? That boys are 'stronger', more 'reasonable', are more 'decisive' and 'wiser', are 'designed for mastery' whereas girls are 'soft' and 'domestic' and need to serve the emotional (read 'less important') needs of society? This position is the historical one. Although this kind of gender typing is no longer politically correct, it still holds a certain amount of sway even today. As far as I know, when this was the dominant view, 'research' and academia supported it. I do know that early sociology supported this view. Was it because they were less advanced, or was it simply because successful researchers know how to tailor their findings to be relevant to what the society wants to hear?

I tend to avoid basing my views on the latest research. Firstly, it is often wrong, and secondly, even if it is valid, oftentimes it only gets at a part of the truth, and is deceptive for that reason. I think our views should be based on something more substantial. The human brain is complex, and the details outlined above could mean almost the opposite of what the researchers imply, merely because the brain is not well understood, and also because the researchers want to become famous and applauded, not dismissed for their sexist views. If their findings were sexist, wouldn't we try to find holes in them? Whereas in the current scenario, we are fine with the implications, so we just accept them.

I think research is much less reliable than is made out by the researchers. Only a few years ago they were telling us that saturated fat is bad and trans fat is good. If they don't get the digestive system, can we really expect them to get the brain?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
@Priva

You're right. And I agree with you on most points. And honestly I didn't find the specific study I was talking about but instead found different sources siting differences in brain functions between males and females.
Im posting here to discuss, not write a masters thesis.
I have a few points though. I'm not discounting nurture. I'm only saying there is a genetic component involved in brain development. Nurture is obviously the only thing we have the power to change (after we pick our mates ofcourse) so its much more important.
But if we are to believe our brain evolved, then it goes without saying genetics has an extremely important role on our behavior. I love my dog dearly, but unfortunately no matter how hard I try she'll never become a lawyer. :)
This whole notion that we have to consider that males and females are exactly the same at birth and all the differences are developmental is a lil ridiculous to try to defend. I think it comes from a political concern that if we admit genetic differences then equality goes out the window. Valuing equality has nothing to do IMO with are we the same?
Just the nature of evolution in mammals shows that males and females within the same species can follow divergent evolutionary tracts. Some species are more similar than others. Primates are no different. If we are evolved then I see no reason why our brains are not evolved as well. So I really don't understand trying to insist that there wouldn't be similar differences in the human brain across genders when we so readily accept the differences observed in other parts of the human body. We readily accept that men and women metabolize food differently for example. The evidence showing different levels of chemicals in the limbic system between males and females is no different. If you take a person and screw with their limbic system by adding oxytocin here taking dopamine there, you're going to get a person that behaves very differently. Yes, it is not wise to over generalize. And it is hard to discern exactly how much the differences are accounted for from evolution and how much from our environment. However, I think that its pretty safe to say in 2013 that its both.

I know I've said some very simple things but sometimes simplifying things down can help us see the big picture. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
And if you remember the original questions. Could the could there be differences between male and female INTJs and what are they?
 

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I’ve never met another INTJ female, or even INTP… But then again, statistics DO say that they are very, very rare. So what? I don’t understand why you care so much. Honestly, the way you’re going on, I wouldn’t have ever thought YOU to be INTJ either. It sounds as though you read one article and think you’re a psychologist now.

I think that the biggest difference between INTJ males and females is just pressure from society for women to fit into their neat little social roles that make all of the sheep feel safe and comfortable. Besides, I notice symbols and pictures and so on FAR better than I will notice peoples’ faces, but that doesn’t make me any less female, I assure you. I grew up in a hugely open-minded household and community, and my brother is the sensitive, family-oriented one whereas I am the ambitious, rebel-fighter type.

(Sorry if I come off a bit harsh, but I’m getting really sick of this “I don’t think INTJ females actually exist” bs... I'll argue politics, economy, whatever, but when it comes to "gender stereotypes", oh boy..! Way to rattle the cage haha)
 
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