[RealDF]

I found this link on Reddit just now...
Why-women-teachers-like-treat-boy-illness

and combined with the PC poll/thread...
http://personalitycafe.com/polls/30283-how-would-you-rate-would-have-rated-your-school-life.html

...it's really got me thinking about how I've grown up.

I'm not so much looking at this article as a objecting to female teachers in anyway, but more about how society is shaping and molding boys to be 'less male' and be more passive.

Discuss please. I want to know what other people think about this article.

 

[Protagoras]

Unfortunately this article seems to accurately describe the sad truth that we are living in a 'women-centric' world, even in my own life I can definitely see the effect of the feminization of the educational institutions. I'm currently a student of the VWO (which is the highest level of high schools in the Netherlands and is the precedent to the Dutch Universities) and we boys are hopelessly outnumbered here. In the previous school year, around 68% of the students in my year were girls and they were usually getting higher grades than the boys because of their ability to function better within the educational system. Those boys who couldn't adapt to the subtle and indirect way of the post-modern; feminist educational institution have all failed scholastically (no matter how smart/dumb they actually were). I see them come and go every year: the high-spirited, enthusiastic, somewhat arrogant boys who just don't understand that they can't be that way if they want to succeed in this system. Their uncompromised masculinity is their downfall, they are usually not really dumb but they can't see the social context of the system and therefore they can't change in order to survive within the system. Or perhaps the teachers don't appreciate their direct and playful behaviours enough to see the potential of these boys; they usually ignore the (in their eyes) unsophisticated boys and focus all their attention on the girls. And even guys like me and my friends (who have found a way to survive in this system) are usually ignored or underestimated by the teachers, my economy teacher didn't even believe I was able to write a paper on Neoliberalism and the ongoing financial crisis. He actually thought I let somebody else write the paper for me or took it of the internet...

It's sad but true: masculinity has become the synonym for dumb, foolish and clownish behaviour... and it's effecting every single boy who's growing up right now...

 

[EYENTJ]

Unfortunately this article seems to accurately describe the sad truth that we are living in a 'women-centric' world, even in my own life I can definitely see the effect of the feminization of the educational institutions. I'm currently a student of the VWO (which is the highest level of high schools in the Netherlands and is the precedent to the Dutch Universities) and we boys are hopelessly outnumbered here. In the previous school year, around 68% of the students in my year were girls and they were usually getting higher grades than the boys because of their ability to function better within the educational system. Those boys who couldn't adapt to the subtle and indirect way of the post-modern; feminist educational institution have all failed scholastically (no matter how smart/dumb they actually were). I see them come and go every year: the high-spirited, enthusiastic, somewhat arrogant boys who just don't understand that they can't be that way if they want to succeed in this system. Their uncompromised masculinity is their downfall, they are usually not really dumb but they can't see the social context of the system and therefore they can't change in order to survive within the system. Or perhaps the teachers don't appreciate their direct and playful behaviours enough to see the potential of these boys; they usually ignore the (in their eyes) unsophisticated boys and focus all their attention on the girls. And even guys like me and my friends (who have found a way to survive in this system) are usually ignored or underestimated by the teachers, my economy teacher didn't even believe I was able to write a paper on Neoliberalism and the ongoing financial crisis. He actually thought I let somebody else write the paper for me or took it of the internet...

It's sad but true: masculinity has become the synonym for dumb, foolish and clownish behaviour... and it's effecting every single boy who's growing up right now...

My experience in the US has been that girls work harder than boys and thus get better grades on average. I did have a bull-**** teacher once who fawned on the girls and hated the guys (particularly me) but she's an outlier. She once accused my friend of plagiarism because he used the word "beguiled" in an essay; I suppose it wasn't possible in her world for him to know the word or to have access to a dictionary or thesaurus. I was certainly arrogant in high school, though introverted, yet if anything I received better treatment from many female teachers. The same was true for me in college.

 

[Protagoras]

My experience in the US has been that girls work harder than boys and thus get better grades on average.

This is exactly what I meant when I said that girls were better adapted to survive in the educational institutions. They 'work hard' and finish their homework on time, and that kind of behaviour is associated with being a good student. However, 'working hard' shouldn't be scholastically rewarded, it can only be monetarily or emotionally rewarded. 'Working hard' is something you do when you work in a supermarket or when you're cleaning your room but working hard isn't necessarily a way to improve yourself intellectually in school. And this is what schools should be doing: measuring our intellectual abilities and improving them if possible.

On this moment the well-adapted and conformist girls (and girls do tend to be more well-behaved) have far more chance of succeeding then most boys (who are more likely individualistic and cocky), simply because teachers are more comfortable with the always listening, seemingly hard working girls then with the more sceptic and arrogant boys. Especially in high schools these differences in behaviour between girls and boys becomes more evident: the typical teenage boy is brash, cocky, competitive and self-involved while the typical teenage girls are usually group-oriented, shy, easily manipulated by peer pressure and open-minded. Well, guess who are seen as the better students by high school teachers? The girls. The simple fact that girls (seem to) work harder then boys should absolutely not be a reason for teachers to reward them with more attention, higher grades (when possible) or other positive reactions, but unfortunately this is the case.

School is nothing more than a way of oppressing young people and flaying them into the shape needed to be obedient citizens, it hasn't got anything to do with our intellectual development as humans any more. And apparently girls are better at being obedient...

 

[RealDF]

one thing is for sure, if i had a male teacher in high school, my final grade would be about 10% higher than with a female teacher. and if i was in a class that had me moving around and using my hands, it would be at least 89%. even thru university, same things.

im wondering if in the teachers' minds they think they're doing a good thing by treating everyone the same?

one part of the article that really hit me was...
"Our society teaches that the traditionally masculine roles of father, breadwinner and protector are outdated and sexist."

...i mean wow. there are lots of men out there that see their job as their status in their tribe/group/family. they NEED to go out and bring the kill back for the tribe to consume and that is how they gain their status in the group.

idk, im rambling a bit i feel. i still havent had my caffeine yet.

one more thing: but the more i think about this article, the more i think that school systems should try to separate the boys and the girls in order to teach more effectively to the two sexes. because they are two different types, they should be treated that way and not as if they need the same things.

 

[ENTrePenuer]

I found this link on Reddit just now...
Why-women-teachers-like-treat-boy-illness

and combined with the PC poll/thread...
http://personalitycafe.com/polls/30283-how-would-you-rate-would-have-rated-your-school-life.html

...it's really got me thinking about how I've grown up.

I'm not so much looking at this article as a objecting to female teachers in anyway, but more about how society is shaping and molding boys to be 'less male' and be more passive.

Discuss please. I want to know what other people think about this article.

Women are taking over this society, not realizing they are the ones who will pay the ultimate price.

 

[Protagoras]

Women are taking over this society, not realizing they are the ones who will pay the ultimate price.

That's a too simplistic perspective. It's not the fault of women per se that boy's are being held back, there's just been a very powerful movement in the western societies during the last 50-60 years or so which has turned out to be favourable to women and harmful to men. You could also say that it's the fault of us men for not fighting back. But no matter who you blame for this change, the harsh reality is that it has occurred and needs to be reversed. It would be more constructive to focus on the solution(s) of this problem rather than the cause(s).

 

[skycloud86]

Women are taking over this society, not realizing they are the ones who will pay the ultimate price.

How on earth are women taking over any Western society?

 

[ENTrePenuer]

That's a too simplistic perspective. It's not the fault of women per se that boy's are being held back, there's just been a very powerful movement in the western societies during the last 50-60 years or so which has turned out to be favourable to women and harmful to men. You could also say that it's the fault of us men for not fighting back. But no matter who you blame for this change, the harsh reality is that it has occurred and needs to be reversed. It would be more constructive to focus on the solution(s) of this problem rather then the cause(s).

Like most insoluble problems people will attempt to solve it when it's already too late.

This WILL blow up in our faces and the culprits will be sitting around with a stupid look on their face.

 

[Protagoras]

Like most insoluble problems people will attempt to solve it when it's already too late.

This WILL blow up in our faces and the culprits will be sitting around with a stupid look on their face.

OK, I'll have to admit that it's probably insoluble and therefore cannot be reversed (that was a poor choice of words on my part). However, I do think that it's worth fighting against the current ways of feminization... You might be right that it's not soluble but that doesn't mean we can't change anything. In other words this problem might not be soluble but it IS probably solvable. Of course we must not want to go back to the days in which the educational system was men-centric, but we do need to make it less women-centric to the point that men and women have equal chances of success.

 

[ENTrePenuer]

OK, I'll have to admit that it's probably insoluble and therefore cannot be reversed (that was a poor choice of words on my part). However, I do think that it's worth fighting against the current ways of feminization... You might be right that it's not soluble but that doesn't mean we can't change anything. In other words this problem might not be soluble but it IS probably solvable. Of course we must not want to go back to the days in which the educational system was men-centric, but we do need to make it less women-centric to the point that men and women have equal chances of success.

It permeates every aspect of the society currently so much so that even pointing it out is seen as some sort of cardinal sin. The way I see it, you can fight a losing battle and be battered and bruised in the process or you can walk a fine line of social untruths and personal enlightenment.
I won't attempt to help those who don't want to be helped. They have made their decision.

 

[Protagoras]

It permeates every aspect of the society currently so much so that even pointing it out is seen as some sort of cardinal sin. The way I see it, you can fight a losing battle and be battered and bruised in the process or you can walk a fine line of social untruths and personal enlightenment.
I won't attempt to help those who don't want to be helped. They have made their decision.

Well, that's a very healthy way of looking at it from a personal perspective and I too have chosen the path of personal enlightenment over the path of being in constant conflict with a system that's able to easily crush me if I'll try to actively undermine it. But that's not a reason for me to not think about a way to solve this situation. Speaking my thoughts about this subject here on the Personality Cafe will not harm me because I'm not actively provoking or undermining the system. It's not wrong to discuss this subject and openly share your thoughts about it (the worst thing that could happen here is that the whole discussion will turn out to be completely ineffective in finding a solution), we'll just have to be careful in realizing our solution. And perhaps we don't even find a solution or find out that we'd rather go for individual enlightenment after all.

 

[wiarumas]

Those who want to succeed will find a way.

Our educational system doesn't take into consideration different teaching methods. We all learn differently... its not just as simple as male-centric and female-centric. However, I do agree that females have an edge in our current system. With that said, its a slight advantage and not really that big of a deal (education as a whole really isn't that beneficial in real life... as long as you have sufficient knowledge in the basics you'll be fine.... the real world requires a different kind of knowledge that is not provided in the classroom).

Personally, I never felt that I was at a disadvantage during my schooling. Even if it was, I doubt the disadvantage carried over beyond the report card.

Reminds me of a study I once read that said more successful men typically carried a 3.0-3.5 in college, successful women carried a 3.5-4.0, just because women outperform men at the teaching method used in majority of the colleges and did not accurately represent their abilities post-graduation.

 

[Protagoras]

Our educational system doesn't take into consideration different teaching methods. We all learn differently... its not just as simple as male-centric and female-centric. However, I do agree that females have an edge in our current system. With that said, its a slight advantage and not really that big of a deal (education as a whole really isn't that beneficial in real life... as long as you have sufficient knowledge in the basics you'll be fine.... the real world requires a different kind of knowledge that is not provided in the classroom).

You are absolutely right in pointing out that it's not just about a women-centric versus a men-centric educational system and of course there's the difference in learning styles and their appropriate teaching methods. But I do think that there is a correlation between gender and learning styles and on this moment the the strict and orderly do-your-homework-or-else method seems to be the standard. This style also seems to work better with girls than with boys and therefore our current system is not fit for most boys to be schooled in.

 

[Namaste]

This is exactly what I meant when I said that girls were better adapted to survive in the educational institutions. They 'work hard' and finish their homework on time, and that kind of behaviour is associated with being a good student. .

You are absolutely right in pointing out that it's not just about a women-centric versus a men-centric educational system and of course there's the difference in learning styles and their appropriate teaching methods. But I do think that there is a correlation between gender and learning styles and on this moment the the strict and orderly do-your-homework-or-else method seems to be the standard. This style also seems to work better with girls than with boys and therefore our current system is not fit for most boys to be schooled in.

This is because as children women are punished more often and more harshly for breaking rules whereas if boys break rules, adults shrug it off and say 'boys will be boys'. Women are expected to behave perfectly by social standards and norms while is it acceptable for 'boys to be boys' and break rules and get away with it. Maybe there is something underlying the feminine-dominated education system rather than women having an inherent advantage over men?

 

[wiarumas]

You are absolutely right in pointing out that it's not just about a women-centric versus a men-centric educational system and of course there's the difference in learning styles and their appropriate teaching methods. But I do think that there is a correlation between gender and learning styles and on this moment the the strict and orderly do-your-homework-or-else method seems to be the standard. This style also seems to work better with girls than with boys and therefore our current system is not fit for most boys to be schooled in.

Even though women perform better than males in school, I don't think it means the system is not fit. The kids are still being educated... they just aren't scoring as high.

In fact, the strict observance of the rules that girls are being taught may be putting them at a disadvantage in the real world. The boys, even though scoring lower, may be giving them the right mindset for the lack-of-structure real world. It might be one reason that men are being paid 25% more on average than women and hold majority of the powerful positions in the world (executives, politics, etc).

No amount of studying or strict adherence to the rules will get you there. It involves out of the box thinking that our boys might be learning indirectly by "getting by" in the schooling system.

 

[RealDF]

Our educational system doesn't take into consideration different teaching methods. We all learn differently... its not just as simple as male-centric and female-centric. However, I do agree that females have an edge in our current system.

^^ I agree with that up until...

With that said, its a slight advantage and not really that big of a deal [...] the real world requires a different kind of knowledge that is not provided in the classroom

to get to a post-secondary program, you need the classroom. if it is not helping ~50% of the population, there is something very wrong with it, especially in this politically correct world we live in. From the article "In 2009, 50 per cent of girls went into higher education; only 38 per cent of boys did." sure, that is only a 12% difference, but it still means that boys arent being treated fairly. There is room for improvement and to ignore ~50% of the population is irresponsible and detrimental.

Personally, I never felt that I was at a disadvantage during my schooling. Even if it was, I doubt the disadvantage carried over beyond the report card.
Reminds me of a study I once read that said more successful men typically carried a 3.0-3.5 in college, successful women carried a 3.5-4.0, just because women outperform men at the teaching method used in majority of the colleges and did not accurately represent their abilities post-graduation.

but it is not about how successful they are, you did say "Those who want to succeed will find a way." and that is absolutely true, it is more about how many men are going on to post-secondary and graduating there.

^^^^^ im rereading this and im thinking it came off kinda harsh, it wasnt meant to, i just wanted to point out my continued thoughts and direction in this thread which will continue here...

i am all for equal rights and equal treatment... but not for the same rights and the same treatment.

i do not have any children yet, but i do not want my son growing up in a world where he thinks the opposite sex is better than him; but at the same time, same thing if i were to have a daughter. but focusing again on the male side, i feel that society and the wanting of all organizations for social change, they want to be politically correct and want to take away masculinity since it can be aggressive and unpleasant. but then, we lose an aspect of our manhood that is hardwired into our brains (no matter how much you disagree, we are animals of this world and we do function in certain ways).

TL;DR: "Politically Correct" culture is taking away the masculinity of our boys in favour of gentler, more feminine males who then get sucked into Politically Correct culture and continue spouting the fallacy that men should be more passive. There is room for improvement and to ignore ~50% of the population is irresponsible and detrimental.

IMO this is unacceptable. I feel that I have suffered greatly by being raised to be passive.

 

[Protagoras]

This is because as children women are punished more often and more harshly for breaking rules whereas if boys break rules, adults shrug it off and say 'boys will be boys'. Women are expected to behave perfectly by social standards and norms while is it acceptable for 'boys to be boys' and break rules and get away with it. Maybe there is something underlying the feminine-dominated education system rather than women having an inherent advantage over men?

Oh, you could very wel be right. Perhaps it has nothing to do with gender itself but with gender roles. But that would even be more reason to change the teachers' and our own attitudes towards boys/girls. Because if you are correct, we can actually make a difference by behaving different towards (young) children.

In fact, the strict observance of the rules that girls are being taught may be putting them at a disadvantage in the real world. The boys, even though scoring lower, may be giving them the right mindset for the lack-of-structure real world. It might be one reason that men are being paid 25% more on average than women and hold majority of the powerful positions in the world (executives, politics, etc).

No amount of studying or strict adherence to the rules will get you there. It involves out of the box thinking that our boys might be learning indirectly by "getting by" in the schooling system.

I'm not so sure about your whole "in the real world it's different" rhetoric. In theory you are correct: tests in themselves have nothing to do with competence or abilities to succeed, but passing tests will get you your diplomas and if you're really good even a university degree. And a university degree will help you A LOT in getting a good job. Those who have never finished high school are usually not doctors or lawyers, they will have to fight much harder to succeed in a modern society. Of course luck, intelligence and other variables also play a role in succeeding in 'the real world', but you can't disconnect education from 'the real world'. Being educated does give you some advantage over the rest of the population in becoming a successful individual, you can't deny this. That's not to say that we men are unsuccesful or anything... We are just held back when it comes to education and this should be fixed because we all deserve the same chances at becoming succesful, happy citizens (or at least that's what I believe).

 

[RealDF]

Even though women perform better than males in school, I don't think it means the system is not fit. The kids are still being educated... they just aren't scoring as high.

In fact, the strict observance of the rules that girls are being taught may be putting them at a disadvantage in the real world. The boys, even though scoring lower, may be giving them the right mindset for the lack-of-structure real world. It might be one reason that men are being paid 25% more on average than women and hold majority of the powerful positions in the world (executives, politics, etc).

No amount of studying or strict adherence to the rules will get you there. It involves out of the box thinking that our boys might be learning indirectly by "getting by" in the schooling system.

Article about how single, childless, educated women now make more than men in the same position.
Study: Young, Single, Childless Women Earn More Than Men - TIME

Sadly though, adherence to the rules gets you your degree and that greatly increases your earning power as a worker. Getting a degree does not ask for thinking outside the box; at least not a Bachelors degree, and yes I have a BA Honours.

 

[wiarumas]

I understand completely where you are coming from and agree. I believe the difference is that I don't view it as that big of a deal and that you are overestimating how dire the situation is.

Let me finish that quote I started with since the ending is somewhat relevant now:

Those who want to succeed will find a way; those who don't will find an excuse.

Being a man and looking back on my somewhat female-centric education, I felt it in no way impeded my success and undermined my masculinity. I was never taught to be passive or felt that I was at a disadvantage. I didn't need coddled by the system. I went to a good university, I got a good job, and I got my MBA part time from a top university. I didn't have the best GPA - my female co-students might have scored better and probably even studied harder. I could blame the system, but in the end, I learned what I needed, got the degrees, and got on with my life. I can safely say that a very minimal amount of what I do, and I'm sure plenty of others do, was not learned in the classroom or in text books. Your success in school only guarantees success in school - not in life.

The educational system is not ideal, but its not a handicap either. The difference between males and females in education exists, but is negligible. Saying the system is unfair to men is bogus. Its not ignoring 50% of the population - it might favor 50% of the population, but it doesn't reduce the efficiency of men to 0. If men performed 95% as well as women in school, that's enough to have competitive grades as well as be able to be efficient in an entry level job (and beyond that, its up to experience and innovation over education).

Adherence to the rules is great if you want to be a cog in the wheel. Entrepreneurship (not starting your own business - but finding your value in a company) and success are not found in any text book. I'm not sure how long you've been in the workforce, but I'm surprised you still think your degree has anything to do with earning power. That's only applicable if you have no experience or under the age of 25.

Also, that statistic you posted is for young women. I'd be interested in a study according to age. Entry level women may make more, but they have a glass ceiling and men are more often promoted to senior/managerial positions.