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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It really never occurred to me that Fi-users would be less open to revealing their feelings until I was trying to decide whether I was an ENTP or an ENFP. I mentioned that two things that made me lean toward ENTP were that I'm not much for expressing how I feel about things and that I have a hard time dealing with other peoples' feelings. But apparently Fi-users go through that also. So I'm trying to look into this even though Fe and Fi are not experienced the same way in the different types that use them.

But what is it with xxFPs and revealing feelings? Is it that you feel something but you have a hard time knowing how to express it? And do you have a hard time dealing with other peoples' emotions or feelings? Why?

I've already determined that ENTP is my type and I've also realized why I have those two traits and how it coincides with ENTP being my type. But I've been trying to understand the differences between Fi and Fe in people a little better.

Note: I'm asking INFPs because they are Fi-dom and are closest to my type. Though it may be better for comparison if I ask ENFPs, this is a good start :laughing:
 

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I have a hard time expressing feelings because I feel I can't find the right words to describe them perfectly. Like, I'm not content unless someone sees it the way I do, but there's no way I can get someone to see it the same why I do by just telling him or her how I feel. Words just don't give it justice. It'd be so much easier if we could just give people our minds, and let them experience them while still being able to observe with their own minds.

Same goes for when trying to deal with others' feelings. I just don't see it the way you do, so I can't fully appreciate how you feel.
 

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I have a hard time expressing feelings because I feel I can't find the right words to describe them perfectly. Like, I'm not content unless someone sees it the way I do, but there's no way I can get someone to see it the same why I do by just telling him or her how I feel. Words just don't give it justice. It'd be so much easier if we could just give people our minds, and let them experience them while still being able to observe with their own minds.

Same goes for when trying to deal with others' feelings. I just don't see it the way you do, so I can't fully appreciate how you feel.
That is so true. It feels wrong to just toss out words that aren't the exact words in the English vocabulary (my Te at work?) that could be used to describe something so abstract. Metaphors seem to be the most useful tools for expressing feelings and psychological occurrences.
 
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I try, I try so hard to articulate what I'm feeling when it comes to Fi like issues - but I can't. It's so frustrating because I feel like I indulge in too much (on their part perceived) hyperbole and that it would be hard to take seriously as a consequence. I've just so much fundamentally inexpressible feeling inside me and it's so annoying because on some level I'm a very open person.
 

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I think INFP's sense feelings - more than they talk about feelings. For me it's like I just know what needs to be done in situation and I just trust myself. As for my feelings, I think they "generally" go to a back burner because the way I learn to understand them is through observation. Therefore, watching others and identifying that they "act" and "feel" like I do - allows me to either feel normal or different than the rest of the world. I also believe how tired I am physically plays a big part in my feelings - because it is hard to be focused on others when you are tired. I think INFP's have a hard time when they are not focused on other people's feelings. But that may be just me. :cool:
 

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F is all about values, not emotions. With F's, emotions might be affected by values (while with T's, emotions are affected by logic(?)).

In my understanding, Fi's wish that others had their values while Fe's change their values according to others'. That might make it harder for Fi to express his/her values to others, because the Fi is affraid that others might try and change it (which is the worst thing in the world for an Fi) much like Ti isn't fond of others trying to change his/her logical reasoning..
 

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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
F is all about values, not emotions. With F's, emotions might be affected by values (while with T's, emotions are affected by logic(?)).

In my understanding, Fi's wish that others had their values while Fe's change their values according to others'. That might make it harder for Fi to express his/her values to others, because the Fi is affraid that others might try and change it (which is the worst thing in the world for an Fi) much like Ti isn't fond of others trying to change his/her logical reasoning..
How you feel about something is not necessarily involving emotions.
Saying that Fi is all about values is like saying Ti is all about principles. I've thought that feeling was more about humans that emotions. Fi would have a deeper understanding of humans and yourself, I think. Fi and Ti are both introverted rational functions that analyze things, right? Ti analyzes based on logic, basically. What does Fi use to analyze things?
 

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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
And having those values and looking at things in terms of those values means you're in touch with how things make you feel.
 

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Not necessarily. Emotions are the same whether you're T or F, E or I. I'm just saying that the different functions might affect one's emitions in different ways.

Like F's get positive emotions when there's harmony according to their values while T's might get positive emotions when there's harmony according to logic. It's only a theory though..

But I do know that emotions and sensitivity has nothing to do with MBTI, even though feeler types seem to be more sensitive, statistically speaking..
 

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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I only mentioned emotions once...
If someone asks you how you feel about your mom dying, I don't think they're asking for a response like, "it makes me sad". They're looking for something with more depth. If you analyze things based on personal values, then you're more in touch with yourself and your reactions to things, no? Because I know that Fi-users tend to match that.

Like F's get positive emotions when there's harmony according to their values while T's might get positive emotions when there's harmony according to logic. It's only a theory though..

But I do know that emotions and sensitivity has nothing to do with MBTI, even though feeler types seem to be more sensitive, statistically speaking..
I don't think that's true, but why are you talking about emotions if you say that emotions have nothing to do with MBTI?

I'm getting kinda off track here, sorry lol
 

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I don't think that's true, but why are you talking about emotions if you say that emotions have nothing to do with MBTI?

I'm getting kinda off track here, sorry lol
Well, even I have trouble understanding my train of thoughts, lol. But I'm not talking about emotions in the sense of MBTI but merely in general. And that emotions are affected by one's personality. Like, if you like dragons, dragons makes you happy, MBTI or not. And if you like values, values makes you happy..

Nah, don't listen to me.. I don't really know as much as I'm probably letting on.....
 

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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I might not make much sense because I'm tired right now, but I'm gonna try to respond right now before I go to sleep...

I have a hard time expressing feelings because I feel I can't find the right words to describe them perfectly. Like, I'm not content unless someone sees it the way I do, but there's no way I can get someone to see it the same why I do by just telling him or her how I feel. Words just don't give it justice. It'd be so much easier if we could just give people our minds, and let them experience them while still being able to observe with their own minds.

Same goes for when trying to deal with others' feelings. I just don't see it the way you do, so I can't fully appreciate how you feel.
That is so true. It feels wrong to just toss out words that aren't the exact words in the English vocabulary (my Te at work?) that could be used to describe something so abstract. Metaphors seem to be the most useful tools for expressing feelings and psychological occurrences.
I try, I try so hard to articulate what I'm feeling when it comes to Fi like issues - but I can't. It's so frustrating because I feel like I indulge in too much (on their part perceived) hyperbole and that it would be hard to take seriously as a consequence. I've just so much fundamentally inexpressible feeling inside me and it's so annoying because on some level I'm a very open person.
I'm trying to find a way to talk about my understanding of Fi without implying that I think it's directly about emotions. So...your expression of yourself is based on the fact that human ideals, opinions, views, and feelings are considered precious to you, and that they must be expressed in a flawless way? And those of others' must be honored also?
And I already touched upon this, but I think that Fi is a more in depth understanding of your reactions to things or what things mean to you. I was chatting with an ENFP who said that she felt other peoples' pain. I think that Fi-users may have a deeper understanding of how things affect people. Not necessarily emotions, but a human and personal element.
Does this even make sense? :dry:
 

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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
But do tell me if I'm completely off. I'm trying to understand this, but I sometimes get lost in abstract thoughts :crazy:
I'll come back and see if anyone has responded tomorrow.
 

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Not necessarily. Emotions are the same whether you're T or F, E or I. I'm just saying that the different functions might affect one's emitions in different ways.

Like F's get positive emotions when there's harmony according to their values while T's might get positive emotions when there's harmony according to logic. It's only a theory though..

But I do know that emotions and sensitivity has nothing to do with MBTI, even though feeler types seem to be more sensitive, statistically speaking..
Nice theory.

It irks me when people talk about feelers being emotional and -emotive-. How Fi can effect/relate to emotions, is that rather than being extensive, they may be intensive.

When I'm psychologically healthy, I don't feel a constant state of emotions; I don't react to everything emotionally. When I do feel, it is intense. Infps' may seem really "emotional" online, but if you look at what they are talking about in specific instances, they seem to be specific emotions, which are usually intense. Sometimes they don't communicate an emotion, but they seem so because of the emotive language used. Sometimes that's for communication and relatability (not a word but I'm going to use it).

Just because certain things make you feel deeply, doesn't mean to say you always feel. For me, there's a time and a place. I feel deeply when I am in my own space, and when it involves something very specific that speaks to me. To be honest, I dont always know how I feel and think about things, which sometimes makes me think Fe is more a part of my mindset than Fi, I don't know. I'll have to get back to you on that :)

It really never occurred to me that Fi-users would be less open to revealing their feelings until I was trying to decide whether I was an ENTP or an ENFP. I mentioned that two things that made me lean toward ENTP were that I'm not much for expressing how I feel about things and that I have a hard time dealing with other peoples' feelings. But apparently Fi-users go through that also. So I'm trying to look into this even though Fe and Fi are not experienced the same way in the different types that use them.

But what is it with xxFPs and revealing feelings? Is it that you feel something but you have a hard time knowing how to express it? And do you have a hard time dealing with other peoples' emotions or feelings? Why?

I've already determined that ENTP is my type and I've also realized why I have those two traits and how it coincides with ENTP being my type. But I've been trying to understand the differences between Fi and Fe in people a little better.

Note: I'm asking INFPs because they are Fi-dom and are closest to my type. Though it may be better for comparison if I ask ENFPs, this is a good start :laughing:
I told you all this! :p

When you take something internal and external, and value it... through a mechanism that is intrinsic to your core; so intrinsic, you do not recognise how and why you value certain things over others (although you can rationalise it; e.g. I believe in... being kind to people, because people should be treated with dignity, It results in 2 way respect, which leads to better efficiency and harmony in the environment, which leads to sharing and peaceful dialogue, which leads to etc etc etc) what you believe in becomes tied to your ego; who you are.
This is not something all infps' readily share (and indeed, with fi-doms, all beliefs and values will never totally be exposed to the outside world) because it's personal. When Te comes about, that's when the internal starts interacting with the external more, and perhaps through this vector many values can be expressed (even enforced).

http://personalitycafe.com/infp-forum-idealists/25955-do-you-believe-you-can-should-always-express-what-you-think-feel.html

Some infps' (particularly enneatype 4s') believe and value self expression, and not holding back. Other types; 1s',2s',5s',9s', are less inclined to be vocal about their values and beliefs, because perhaps they value the harmony in the environment, or don't feel strongly enough about some issues, over self expression. For some infps', free expression might be their highest value. For other infps, self expression might be a value they don't hold highly.

In regards to other peoples emotions, I have mentioned before that sometimes I feel really overwhelmed. I may be first a feeler, but I don't go around always being emotive. I'm very stoic at home, more stoic than my istp father. It's different around friends though. I understand and empathise people, because I really think about it; it's a very active process that I take control of. Sometimes it just happens naturally, but most of the time, I have to actively (which means; put effort into) understand the 'other', through reasoning, putting myself in their shoes and accepting their position. I'm naturally very aware of other people, and I am intune with their emotions. When people come at me with their emotions, I sometimes feel perplexed, but I will very rarely act with hostility to them or judge them for it. While they perplex me, I respond to that by looking internally to understand them. And respond appropriately.

My idea of understanding, is understanding completely, to the point of where I see their perspective very clearly, and I can pin point exactly where it's coming from, how and why.

To sum, things that are intrinsically held as good and valuable are difficult to express for some. When I express myself, I find myself relying on Ne; putting ideas into connections, ideas, metaphors etc. It may further be hard to express because one is not used to it (that is a problem for me), because there are no words for intense feelings, because values are sacred to the individual...
 

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For me it is a matter of intensity. I feel so strongly at times, and to show all that is mixed and bundled inside me would be to burden the world with a chaotic river of pure intensity.

Feelings are never simple. That is why you need an intuitive to sort them out. Where does anguish end, and love begin? How do you express all the shades and melange of emotion that we feel on a regular basis?

Especially if you do not want to rock the boat, if you do not want to burden others with your problems?
 
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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I told you all this! :p
My bad :mellow:

But thanks for your explanations because those are probably better than ones I'd find anywhere. I just have to think about it for a while.
But that's interesting and I'm wondering if ENFPs or ITJs look and it the same way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Wow...My computer started fucking up after I had typed almost all of this post and I had to shut it off. Thank the PerC gods, it saved :laughing:
Well, I'm getting off topic in a discussion in which I try to understand the functions better. I'm not totally sticking with the original topic, sorry lol. And this is probably gonna be disorganized and scattered and perhaps completely wrong or confusing, but...:

Just because certain things make you feel deeply, doesn't mean to say you always feel. For me, there's a time and a place. I feel deeply when I am in my own space, and when it involves something very specific that speaks to me. To be honest, I dont always know how I feel and think about things, which sometimes makes me think Fe is more a part of my mindset than Fi, I don't know. I'll have to get back to you on that :)
Well, Fi is an introverted function, so it may require you to be allowed to be inside your head to analyze things.
To relate that further to Ti, I sometimes don't know my own opinion of things or how to make sense of them. I don't even know what to think of the concept of God, but it's because there's more that I need to learn before I can decide. If you're not often sure of how you feel about things, maybe it's because you look for total clarity in Fi ideas. With Ne, I think that Ji is almost like putting pieces of a puzzle together that makes sense and presents a clear picture. Those puzzle often have MANY pieces. Everything you take in with your Ne is fit into that puzzle. Getting the clear Ji picture is a matter of rearranging pieces as you get new information. I'm not totally sure, but it may be a different kind of process for INPs. That's just my understanding of Ne-Ji.

When you take something internal and external, and value it... through a mechanism that is intrinsic to your core; so intrinsic, you do not recognise how and why you value certain things over others (although you can rationalise it; e.g. I believe in... being kind to people, because people should be treated with dignity, It results in 2 way respect, which leads to better efficiency and harmony in the environment, which leads to sharing and peaceful dialogue, which leads to etc etc etc) what you believe in becomes tied to your ego; who you are.
Your description of treating people with dignity is where I kinda get confused as I think that Fe-users sometimes have those same views, but perhaps for different reasons. I may treat people kindly even if I don't respect them, but it's not about a value and it's much more basic an idea. Depending on the situation, it may be for ease of communication or because they didn't do anything to deserve my unfriendliness.

This is not something all infps' readily share (and indeed, with fi-doms, all beliefs and values will never totally be exposed to the outside world) because it's personal. When Te comes about, that's when the internal starts interacting with the external more, and perhaps through this vector many values can be expressed (even enforced).
And these things are hard to share because you want them to be clearly communicated and respected, right? I'd say it's the same thing with my own ideas as I want people to be able to clearly grasp what I'm trying to say, and it irritates me when people don't get them and then start diluting them. I have abstract thoughts in my head that are not always easy to articulate.

But I find it interesting that most basic Ti descriptions talk about how Ti-users wish to clearly communicate their thoughts, but that's not really added to the Fi descriptions. I think that Ti might be associated with seeing the subtle differences in language meaning or using Fe to determine how things might be perceived by others, but for the most part, Ti is just as personal as Fi and that's the driving force in aiming for clarity. Although, admittedly, I sometimes use broad terms just so that I can get as broad responses as possible.

And I've read that Fi-Te might lead someone to base decisions and actions around their Fi values. Or it may lead you to organize your life around those values. Someone argued that Lady Gaga was a J because she had a plan to change the music world. But that seems like something that could also be driven by Fi-Te in an xxFP.

Some infps' (particularly enneatype 4s') believe and value self expression, and not holding back. Other types; 1s',2s',5s',9s', are less inclined to be vocal about their values and beliefs, because perhaps they value the harmony in the environment, or don't feel strongly enough about some issues, over self expression. For some infps', free expression might be their highest value. For other infps, self expression might be a value they don't hold highly.
Regarding this, I remember when Lilrulin(that's her name, right?) mentioned that Fi was the reason that INTJs are concerned with honesty and straightforwardness. But it's obvious that some stronger Fi-users are also concerned with external harmony and may hold back.
I think that the Ji functions are both very personal and are the basis for individuality in these types.
I sometimes hold back my ideas only because I don't want people to shit on them, as I mentioned. Sometimes I make my logical decisions, but I don't want people to start trying to make my decisions for me, so I opt to just keep them to myself and go my own path. But if I think my ideas will be respected, I will express them.
Maybe an Fi-user keeps their ideas to himself/herself because they don't want people to start trying to invalidate them. But if you feel as if people will keep off of your ass, you may express them.


Another interesting thing that I was reading in some older thread was that xxTJs tend to be very outwardly efficient and systematic in their approach. But they are more 'P-ish' internally. xxTPs have a very systematic, but appear extremely scattered on the outside. I'm trying to see if that could relate to xxFJs and xxFPs. For instance, an xxFP may be more driven and aware of what they want out of life than an xxFJ. The xxFJ may appear more like they are working toward something while the xxFP may appear like they aren't working toward something, even if they are. Does that make sense?

In regards to other peoples emotions, I have mentioned before that sometimes I feel really overwhelmed. I may be first a feeler, but I don't go around always being emotive. I'm very stoic at home, more stoic than my istp father. It's different around friends though. I understand and empathise people, because I really think about it; it's a very active process that I take control of. Sometimes it just happens naturally, but most of the time, I have to actively (which means; put effort into) understand the 'other', through reasoning, putting myself in their shoes and accepting their position. I'm naturally very aware of other people, and I am intune with their emotions. When people come at me with their emotions, I sometimes feel perplexed, but I will very rarely act with hostility to them or judge them for it. While they perplex me, I respond to that by looking internally to understand them. And respond appropriately.
Are these some of the times in which you strive to clearly understand peoples' perspectives?


To sum, things that are intrinsically held as good and valuable are difficult to express for some. When I express myself, I find myself relying on Ne; putting ideas into connections, ideas, metaphors etc. It may further be hard to express because one is not used to it (that is a problem for me), because there are no words for intense feelings, because values are sacred to the individual...

I don't relate Fi to emotions(I know that I did mention the word emotions once in the OP, though), but to something subjective and human. It seems as if subjective views and ideas are treated the same way by Fi-users that logical ideas and interpretations are treated by me. I want to understand them as well as I can. I don't need external validation for my logical views as that seems like it would just devalue them. I do respect other ideas, but only as far as I can judge them. Do you treat Fi matters the same way?

As for Fe, I don't think that I inherently know how I view things on that same level. I don't often know exactly how I feel about people or situations. It's a matter of looking at typical responses to certain things and seeing if those responses reign true in me. In that way, I need external validation.

Also, I approach things with my Ti attitude in the interest of understanding as much as I can and with the awareness of many, many variables and things to take into account in my analysis. Could Fi almost be seen the same way? I know that INTPs are typically considered to be overly analytical. Are INFPs the same way, but with Fi? I'm not really sure if the same could be asked for ISPs, because it seems as if that analysis thing would be more of a Ji-Ne thing.


My idea of understanding, is understanding completely, to the point of where I see their perspective very clearly, and I can pin point exactly where it's coming from, how and why.
I was talking about how Ne-Ji seems like a puzzle and I was also relating the way Fi-users value peoples' thoughts and perspectives the way I value ideas. I'm not completely sure if that's an Ne+Ji thing or if that's true for everyone with every xxxP, but I honor different ideas or perspectives provided there is some kind of reasoning. I don't judge things until I get the reasoning. I think this is where Je and Ji split. For instance, my mom is an INFJ and she tends to judge things ethically without looking at reasoning. My sister's an INTJ and she tends to judge things logically without looking at reasoning. She might mention that something another person did was stupid, then I'll come off and start asking her about hypotheticals that would invalidate her judgment of that thing as 'stupid'. Then she'd say that the conversation is stupid and wonder what the use of it is. This is how we butt heads because I'm more interested in the clarity and understanding than a clear application or outer efficiency. It's more about how things make sense with the addition of many little variable that make it what it is. I think that Fi is the same thing, but with different variables and subjects.
 

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I don't really hesitate to express my feelings and I know them very well - the only time I might not would be if I thought it would be harmful to someone.
 
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Subterranean Homesick Alien
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Not necessarily. Emotions are the same whether you're T or F, E or I. I'm just saying that the different functions might affect one's emitions in different ways.

Like F's get positive emotions when there's harmony according to their values while T's might get positive emotions when there's harmony according to logic. It's only a theory though..
I was thinking about this, and I can make sense of it somewhat. But I'm probably gonna go off about something that has nothing to do with your actual point...

Peoples' perceptions will probably influence their emotional responses or what satisfies them. But I don't think it's as simple as looking at the four function dichotomies. I'd look at it in terms of cognitive functions. And not only that, but the specific type. But there are some things that can't be locked into these types.

I don't really hesitate to express my feelings and I know them very well - the only time I might not would be if I thought it would be harmful to someone.
That sounds more like outer harmony. That's too simple. I think people would be able to tell whether you're an Fi-user or an Fe-user once you describe your reasoning for this.
 
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