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Discussion Starter #1
I'm wondering if anyone here has experienced the dreaded Fi-Te loop.

That is when you want to believe something to be true, but cannot bring yourself to without conclusive evidence.

Or am I just dancing in the wind here?
 

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Functions are still a little foreign to me but this sounds like something I experience alot in a social context. Especially when I wonder how people feel about me.
 

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I find myself stuck in loops of Te-ish analysis of my Fi-founded beliefs, usually brought on by reading or participating in skeptic intellectual discussion. I really hate it, because I know what I believe, but other people's spin on similar subjects makes my beliefs feel hollow and incomplete, even though I know they're not. I guess it's just a matter of shining a harsh white light on something that was meant for natural sunlight (as in, logically analyzing something that both defies logic and is, by its nature, beyond logic).
 

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This is not possible (I am fairly sure). Two judging functions in a loop doesn't make any sense.

An infps can experience Fi-Te CONFLICT. That is, taking in the same data but not sure how to interpet it because Fi and Te are coming from exact opposite ways of dealing with things.
An infp with undeveloped Te, for example, does not know how to apply Te to become a "realistic idealist". They may become enbittered or angry with the world, others, or themselves bceause they are entirely run by expectations inside themeslf which may not be met by reality. An infp with undeveloped Te still USES Te, but it is employed in short, random bursts, power by Fi interpetations. In this case a conclusion will be made by Fi and try to enforce it using Te without using Te to ask, is this practical? This is where we see infps with strong ideals becoming really judgemental or intolerant-- they think they have the moral high ground because a opinion they came to personally, using Fi, that works for them, and then they try to making it into a unviersal principal for everyone else... but they will not feel tihs way, they will feel that they are completely justified.

Another instance is "fi-te grappling" when you can see how Te judges a situation, how Fi does, and you don't know how to combine the two and you keep going back on forth on two possible courses of action.. or mix them both so that your stance isn't even clear to the peopel around you.

And then an infp can turn Te against themself and attack themself mericilessly for being what they are.
 

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Another instance is "fi-te grappling" when you can see how Te judges a situation, how Fi does, and you don't know how to combine the two and you keep going back on forth on two possible courses of action.. or mix them both so that your stance isn't even clear to the peopel around you.
I can really identify with that one, it's a bit source of procrastination for me in certain areas especially if I'm stressed or overloaded with too much decision making
 

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This is not possible (I am fairly sure). Two judging functions in a loop doesn't make any sense.
I am fairly sure of this as well. Or it wouldn't be the kind of 'classical' kind of loop: I mean I can see how one could get stuck in a Fi-Te thing in the sense of not being able to form a sound judgment ("I don't know what I feel about this and at the same time, I don't know how to categorize this"). Whereas in a classic loop, one function fuels another, and the latter will fuel the first, over and over. Constellating/revolving around the same subject, but in a sense evolving, whereas Fi-Te doesn't evolve at all.

I suppose this:
That is when you want to believe something to be true, but cannot bring yourself to without conclusive evidence.
Is this:
Another instance is "fi-te grappling" when you can see how Te judges a situation, how Fi does, and you don't know how to combine the two and you keep going back on forth on two possible courses of action..
Delayed, or even cancelled judgment.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Hm none of this sounds like me at all. I just meant not being able to accept things unless they're definitively proven. Example would be my type. Iv'e read a lot about the functions and types but still cannot accept any of it unless I fully understand myself, and the functions well enough. I always end up finding multiple reasons not to accept something - and demand further proof of its validity.

I don't think I have issues with anything going against what I believe - more of just being in a state of constant analysis and disbelief.

This sounds Te, but is an inferior function in INFP.
 

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Hm none of this sounds like me at all. I just meant not being able to accept things unless they're definitively proven. Example would be my type. Iv'e read a lot about the functions and types but still cannot accept any of it unless I fully understand myself, and the functions well enough. I always end up finding multiple reasons not to accept something - and demand further proof of its validity.

I don't think I have issues with anything going against what I believe - more of just being in a state of constant analysis and disbelief.

This sounds Te, but is an inferior function in INFP.
Actually, from my point of view, it does sound like you. Especially your example on your type.

Not accepting your type unless you can fully understand yourself and the functions? Stalled Te judgment (not organizing the information about your type because available data is insufficient), possibly in tandem with an Fi value ("accept only what you can understand").

Finding multiple reasons to not accept something and demanding further proof of validity? Again, stalled Te judgment (not organizing your type because available data conflicts), again possibly in tandem with an Fi value ("accept only what is valid").

Ironically, you're using Te (and Fi) to invalidate your Te. Just to stress it: from my point of view.

You're right: it is a state of constant analysis and disbelief but it's not like a classic loop wherein one function's conclusion (whether right or wrong) is validated, which then fuels the other function to make a different conclusion (regardless of correctness, again) which is validated, and so on. And you're also right about this not being about stuff going against what you believe. The Fi-Te thing you're describing seems to lack validation.

In MBTI, the inferior (or its 'usage') is more flexible than Jung thought it is. If used 'normally', it is spoken of like the fourth function, if 'abnormally' used, it is spoken of as the inferior function. Source: N. Quenk's "Was That Really Me?". To prevent you from doing needless inspection on that: she writes it as a statement, as an assumption, without giving any logical explanation why that is. Just saying, in MBTI there is room for thinking that the inferior function 'can be used' as "non-inferior".
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Actually, from my point of view, it does sound like you. Especially your example on your type.

Not accepting your type unless you can fully understand yourself and the functions? Stalled Te judgment (not organizing the information about your type because available data is insufficient), possibly in tandem with an Fi value ("accept only what you can understand").

Finding multiple reasons to not accept something and demanding further proof of validity? Again, stalled Te judgment (not organizing your type because available data conflicts), again possibly in tandem with an Fi value ("accept only what is valid").

Ironically, you're using Te (and Fi) to invalidate your Te. Just to stress it: from my point of view.

You're right: it is a state of constant analysis and disbelief but it's not like a classic loop wherein one function's conclusion (whether right or wrong) is validated, which then fuels the other function to make a different conclusion (regardless of correctness, again) which is validated, and so on. And you're also right about this not being about stuff going against what you believe. The Fi-Te thing you're describing seems to lack validation.

In MBTI, the inferior (or its 'usage') is more flexible than Jung thought it is. If used 'normally', it is spoken of like the fourth function, if 'abnormally' used, it is spoken of as the inferior function. Source: N. Quenk's "Was That Really Me?". To prevent you from doing needless inspection on that: she writes it as a statement, as an assumption, without giving any logical explanation why that is. Just saying, in MBTI there is room for thinking that the inferior function 'can be used' as "non-inferior".
Do you have any good reading on Fe vs Fi. I relate to Fe more I think, but sometimes I can be detached from people emotionally. I relate to the definition of Ti a lot more than Fi, but both are similar I've read. What can you tell me about this?
 
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Do you have any good reading on Fe vs Fi.
Dude, welcome to the club xD I think I'll have to start organizing a hunting party; for a good read on Fe vs Fi is like trying to the holy grail (in the mean time I summon @Neverontime, one of my favorite Fe vs Fi hunters).

I've been in a couple of Fe vs Fi discussions, the gist is that while the distinction is clear on a functional level (what the functions do), the distinction between Fe and Fi on a behavioral level are quite unclear for several reasons (the ones that I can think of right now):

1) Fi is played out in the inner world, Fe is played out in the outside world. Since we can only see the behavior of a person, which happens in the outside world, it is hard, if not impossible, to discern behavior that can be solely ascribed to Fi.
2) On top of that, cognition doesn't equal behavior, not in a 1:1 ratio anyways. Up to a point, the relationship between cognition is like cause and effect, but the relationship is not 100% reliable.
3) An Fi-dom may harbor personal values which, when pursued, make the Fi-dom seem more sociable than one would expect from an Fi-dom.

So I think the only way you can be sure whether you prefer Fi or Fe is *knowing* whether you prefer making judgments inwardly or outwardly, or prefer using personal values that you have validated yourself or using personal values that are validated by general consensus.

I emphasize *knowing* because I think the only person who can find out is yourself.

From a behavioral point of view, the distinction of the attitude of F translates to a few questions you could ask yourself:
1) Do you prefer keeping inner harmony over keeping harmony in groups?
2) Do you generally stick with your personal convictions, up to the point of creating some debate or conflict within a group?
3) Are you more of a sympathizer or empathizer - that is, do you often sympathize through imagining yourself in someone else's shoes, or do you sympathize through imagining being that other person in her/his shoes (=empathy)?

Here's an Fi vs Fe thread I've participated in, in which I reason Fi to be more of an empathizer and Fe more of a sympathizer: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/94197-fe-vs-fi-bleed-over.html - also note, I don't measure sympathy/empathy in how much or how often it is expressed (however, Fe may be more inclined to express it) - they are just different forms of the same thing.

(There are more threads but I haven't saved them all... ^^;)

These are difficult questions and one will always come up with a few contexts or situations to demonstrate she/he has both Fe and Fi... But the thing is, it is not about which function you *have*, it is about which function you *prefer*.

There will always be some doubt about your type if you go by behavior alone, since like I stated, cognition doesn't equally translate to behavior. So you see, 'relating' to a certain description, whether type or function, is tricky business. MBTI is about knowing preferences.

Being emotionally detached to people as a regular, normal state of mind I would ascribe to lack of F, regadless whether Fi or Fe. I don't think the fact of feeling emotionally detached is telling; if there's any conclusion to be drawn, it's more likely that 'how' and 'why' are telling for discerning Fe and Fi (if possible).

* edit: does this help you with your Fi-Te loop? lawlz
 

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Discussion Starter #11
@eyenexepee

It makes sense but I think I'm still confused.

I prefer Fe I think , but I lack an understanding of Fi to a degree where I can't make the decision one way or the other.

Fi - Valuing; considering importance and worth; reviewing for incongruity; evaluating something based on the truths on which it is based; clarifying values to achieve accord; deciding if something is of significance and worth standing up for.

Considering importance and worth? For what exactly? Are we speaking on morals or objective ideas? Do Fi-doms focus mostly on what is right or wrong morally all the time? I don't really do this. Deciding if something is of significance and worth standing up for : seems like a universal trait unless you're a thoughtless follower.

Your comparison of empathy vs sympathy sounded exactly alike. I personally do feel bad for people with cancer and wonder why they are in this terrible situation. I don't commonly put myself in their shoes, but I do genuinely feel for them.
 
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It makes sense but I think I'm still confused.

I prefer Fe I think , but I lack an understanding of Fi to a degree where I can't make the decision one way or the other.

Fi - Valuing; considering importance and worth; reviewing for incongruity; evaluating something based on the truths on which it is based; clarifying values to achieve accord; deciding if something is of significance and worth standing up for.

Considering importance and worth? For what exactly? Are we speaking on morals or objective ideas? Do Fi-doms focus mostly on what is right or wrong morally all the time? I don't really do this. Deciding if something is of significance and worth standing up for : seems like a universal trait unless you're a thoughtless follower.

Your comparison of empathy vs sympathy sounded exactly alike. I personally do feel bad for people with cancer and wonder why they are in this terrible situation. I don't commonly put myself in their shoes, but I do genuinely feel for them.
No worries, it makes perfect sense to be confused since... It's just effin confusing. Especially short and cryptic descriptions like you posted just now :3

The problem with asking yourself what you need to apply this to (importance/worth/morals/ideas), is that you'll narrow down your understanding of Fi. In a sense, you have to take the vagueness for what it is, because it is applicable to all that you mentioned. Fi is a manner, a style of judging, the object being judged can be anything (though an Fi might resort to Te judgments when the situation calls for it).

Don't think of the Fi process as a well-thought-out moral judgment: INFP's don't sit behind the computer every single time to write down every reason for believing something is right or wrong: I think well-developed Fi goes so fast, all that is left is that feeling that something is right or wrong (and not necessarily from a moral point of view).

You seem to think this is also the case for deciding whether something is significant and worth standing up for - the process of Fi being a long, deliberate and detailed process: this is often not the case.

It's hard to put into words, as you can see here: http://personalitycafe.com/infp-forum-idealists/97510-fi-process-cognitive-function.html (also, you'll have to plow a bit through some derailing and you can skip the last 3 pages or so, sorry ^^; just read up where it says about Fi and feeling tones and conscious/subconscious etc ).

If you haven't checked this page yet: Understanding the MBTI Test, check it out ^^
 

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I agree with everyone else on the Fi-Te thing. Sounds like you're doubting your Fi judgements, which happens when you're told often by others that they're illogical and therefore wrong.

Fi-Fe? Grrrrr hisss
It's a grey area, no-man's land
:laughing:
I'm working on it :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I agree with everyone else on the Fi-Te thing. Sounds like you're doubting your Fi judgements, which happens when you're told often by others that they're illogical and therefore wrong.

Fi-Fe? Grrrrr hisss
It's a grey area, no-man's land
:laughing:
I'm working on it :wink:
Tbh, I don't even know how Fi works as a rational function. I feel like I am rather logical. At this point everything is a hodgepodge of confusion - I've come too close to it and now I'm staring it straight in the face and can no longer see the big picture. Time to step back.
 
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@chittychitty LightNING I believe I'm also logical most of the time, when logical judgement and feeling judgement conflict I will trust my feeling over logic. Fi judgement just 'feels' right, I don't know if other fi users relate but personally I think it's a process of weighing up values in the moment to decide which is the most important thing, sometimes it's the logical answer, sometimes it's not. I read on another site it being described as technical (logical) judgements vs humanitarian (feeling) judgements or something like that.
 

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I can really identify with that one, it's a bit source of procrastination for me in certain areas especially if I'm stressed or overloaded with too much decision making
That could also be attributable to leaning too much on Ne and not enough Te/Fi.\
(I know it's confusing...)
Ne is more dealing with OPTIONS and a possible course of actions and that causes procrastination if we aren't using it right.
Te-Fi grappling is similarly "options" but I worded it wrong- it's an option to SEE things differently. So for example, someone hurts your feelings. The Fi lense can't stop focusing on how they've been hurt or validating those feelings, the Te lense goes, this is normal, people have conflicts of interest, and it isn't personal. Personal, impersonal. If someone isn't committed to leaning on one interpetation "the fi one is more accurate, the Te one is mroe accurate" then you can get stalled.
Ne makes decisions hard because it's providing different "sense" data so therfore hard to make a decision... Te-Fi keeps changing your decision lense, so you get stalled THAT way, or act one one and then later regret it/can see the other side.
@chittychitty LightNING
I just meant not being able to accept things unless they're definitively proven. Example would be my type.
THis is the essence of being a P, delayed decision making. We are Ps because we have dominant introverted judging function (fi) and inferior extroverted function (Te). So that is accountable to Fi and Te.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
That could also be attributable to leaning too much on Ne and not enough Te/Fi.\
(I know it's confusing...)
Ne is more dealing with OPTIONS and a possible course of actions and that causes procrastination if we aren't using it right.
Te-Fi grappling is similarly "options" but I worded it wrong- it's an option to SEE things differently. So for example, someone hurts your feelings. The Fi lense can't stop focusing on how they've been hurt or validating those feelings, the Te lense goes, this is normal, people have conflicts of interest, and it isn't personal. Personal, impersonal. If someone isn't committed to leaning on one interpetation "the fi one is more accurate, the Te one is mroe accurate" then you can get stalled.
Ne makes decisions hard because it's providing different "sense" data so therfore hard to make a decision... Te-Fi keeps changing your decision lense, so you get stalled THAT way, or act one one and then later regret it/can see the other side.
@chittychitty LightNING

THis is the essence of being a P, delayed decision making. We are Ps because we have dominant introverted judging function (fi) and inferior extroverted function (Te). So that is accountable to Fi and Te.

What is a healthy way of dealing with the Fi-Te issue? On the face of it it seems healthy - seeing the rational, objective side of it (Te), and seeing the emotionally rational side (Fi). You get both worlds. What is the deal?

Edit: Seems to me I mostly lean on Te. Is this strange for INFP? I mean I'd slip into insanity if I took every little thing someone said to me personally.

PS @Neverontime Love your avatar, mate.
 

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What is a healthy way of dealing with the Fi-Te issue? On the face of it it seems healthy - seeing the rational, objective side of it (Te), and seeing the emotionally rational side (Fi). You get both worlds. What is the deal?

Edit: Seems to me I mostly lean on Te. Is this strange for INFP? I mean I'd slip into insanity if I took every little thing someone said to me personally.

PS @Neverontime Love your avatar, mate.
It's only unhealthy if it's causing you problems, and I wouldn't take these descriptions too literally, as in word for word. I'm trying to communicate an idea but i have a hard time giving clear, exact details. (shhh I'm not really an expert).

For example- the taking things personally is NOT an example of Fi. Fi does NOT take everything personally. well it does in the sense that everything is given some kind of personal signifigance and analyzed for meaning, but not in the negative sense of being hurt. I was giving an example of how one's perception on a situation could flicker back and forth between two different judgements and have a hard time reconcling them, not that Fi always has to do that.
 

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Sounds like the Fi-Ne loop. Fi creates a belief, but Ne steps in and provides a whole bunch of other possibilities. I was actually just reading up on this over at Personality Junkie, so I'm excited to be able to know what functions you're describing!

Ne also has its challenges. For one, their Ne can make it difficult for INFPs to arrive at firm conclusions or make important decisions. It often seems that at the very moment they are feeling good about a given conclusion or decision, their Ne steps in and causes them to start doubting it again.
 

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Sometimes I purposely look at a situation through a Te perspective in order to get a sense of balance on how I deal with a problem.
I don't feel torn between the two functions when I do this, but I find it helpful at times.
 
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