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Discussion Starter #1
I’m a 4w5, and I’m wanting some feedback from any others with the same type. The more I read about my type, the more I realize how idiosyncratic and internal we are, and how prone to feeling and being alone. Are there any other 4w5 types out there (or if you know of any) who could speak to this? Basically, is the 4w5 destined to end up alone?
 

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Ok, I'm not a 4, and I don't really know any I can ask, but maybe this help (while not answering your question...):

Check the 'Healthy ideas' part here: Eneatipo 4: SUBTIPOS, EJEMPLOS, cómo TRATARLO, su ORIGEN . You can create some habits to practice, remember these. For example each day, before going to sleep remember what good has happened to you that day and what good feelings have you felt, or even better, when you feel something positive try to notice it and take time to enjoy it.
 

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4 5 and 9 are all "withdrawn" types. On top of that, 4 is a "receiving" energy, while 5 is a "giving" energy. So you're primarily withdrawn and receiving, so generally speaking, you are supposed to be approached. If you wind up being too alone and are lonely, maybe you'll enjoy connecting if you just tried to be more approachable.

To me, 4s are like sirens from The Odyssey. They live on an island and play beautiful music to attract sailors and then... devour them whole. To resist the 4 takes force, like strapping yourself down to the mast of the ship.

Obviously a 4 shouldn't just be left alone on the island just because they devour people. No one should be sentenced to loneliness like that. That's just... where you live. But you have to interact.
 

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i often feel like this is true, yeah... I think fours main issue is a connection to the longing, not really what we’re longing for. Once we get what we want, it’s new and scary and if we have a lack of foundation in terms of identity or confidence or whatever, we tend to self-sabotage ourselves into rejecting love. What we’re comfortable with is the sitting alone and waiting for someone to come and sweep us off our feet and understand all of us and be authentically themselves with us, but we have these fears of the real thing not matching up to what we hoped for, and a fear of our own selves not matching up to the person we hope to be. I find that I kind of put myself through this really painful cycle because it’s all i know how to do. I crave vulnerability but at the same time i’m terrified of it... and I don’t know how to change 😕

in regards to making ourselves more available, I don’t even ever know how I come off to people. Obviously i’m not going to make the first move, but I think at least that I’m pretty approachable, until a friend tells me they were scared of me at first and how unapproachable I am. Putting myself out there is really not something I’m comfortable with, and I need people to draw me out. I find that not a lot of people care to, though, and that’s when I feel pretty bad about myself.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thank you, SolMoon. It's interesting--something I do unintentionally (and I learned other INFPs do) is think of funny scenarios-whether real or fictitious--throughout the day that make me laugh out loud. I read somewhere that people see INFPs chuckling to themselves about something they're thinking. Practicing intentional gratefulness is a good practice, but your response just reminded me that I also do the whole "chuckling to myself" thing as well which can genuinely lift my spirits.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Okay, WOAH--Stelliferous, you're really onto something here, and you're using language about the Enneagram I haven't heard yet, which doesn't really happen at this point, so you have my attention.

-I've never heard of "energies" in regards to the Types. What does that mean, and where can I get more information on that?

-Oddly enough, even though I've never heard of Type energies, describing me as withdrawn and receiving sounds scarily accurate. (Caveat: I've gone through different phases in my life with varying durations where withdrawn would not describe me at all. Maybe the INFP takes a long time to settle into him/herself?)

-I'm sure you know this already, but the Odyssey is actually an allegory of the Enneagram! And--surprise--the siren part does represent the Four--however, it's unclear whether it's Odysseus himself (at least in the moment) or the sirens who are supposed to represent the life experience of the Four. (And while we're on the subject, there's a song called Ulysses by one Josh Garrels that tells this song in achingly beautiful poetry.)

--For the love, explain what you mean by Fours "devour people whole." They're too needy? Too self-focused? What? This idea unnerves me very much, and frankly I feel a bit sick about it.

-Lastly, even though I am shy, and often feel that I don't connect with as many people as others tend to, I really do put forth effort to engage.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Lavalamp, I know what you mean about needing others to draw you out. It takes a lot of effort for me to put myself in someone's view, and with strangers, I pretty much wait to be addressed before I engage.

Approachable-ness: I've had to be conscious of my facial expression, and make sure I'm smiling when around anyone new, as a stoic face can definitely turn people away. I totally know what you mean about people not caring to draw you out. I don't know if you feel the same here, but I guess mostly I'm "withdrawn" (so I'm told) because I can't judge a person's genuine interest level or willingness to know until they probe me. I just don't have that initial "social competition", if you will, when meeting people to convince them that I'm interesting. I guess this is what withdrawn looks like? But depending on how much effort they put forth, this wall can fall down very quickly.

Longing: I've certainly been told again and again that Fours are addicted to longing, and that they would prefer to long for what is absent than to actually possess it. I just want to call bull**** on this. We may have a propensity for longing, but having is better than longing. I'm done with longing, done with lacking--I'm ready to actually have what I desire. It bothers me to be told that Fours would prefer to merely long for what they want; it sounds so twisted and also implies we can never be happy. I also want to say that there have been things I longed for, then actually attained them, and they were as wonderful as I imagined they would be. So take that, Enneagram. I've also heard of the self-sabotage, but...honestly, there's so much here, it's hard to sort through. I guess in a way I may have a fear of reality not matching up to my ideals, and I guess the bottom line is I wonder if "love" is something that I can even feel--or if my ideals have tainted it so badly, my heart is too far gone.

Just curious, do you know your wing? There's so much to each type, and I hear a lot about the Four that I don't internalize, but others do. Maybe wings can create all the diversity?
 

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@wendypeffercorn Destined to be alone? Starting off, perhaps. Majority of 4w5's are unhealthy so they tend to be loners but once they decide they want to live their life they can learn to connect with others again.

Also, it's good to know the difference between the instincts. Very briefly if you're not familiar with them Social (so) 4's tend to be the most sensitive of all the types. They want others to see them suffering in hopes that others will give them love. Though unconscious they tend to play the victim role. Sexual (sx) 4's are the competitive ones. They tend to feel inferior and to counter that they become competitive to be superior to others. Often are arrogant but only because they are trying to hide their inferiority. And lastly, Self-Preservation (sp) 4's are the counter-type because they are the least like the 4 description which I believe is your instinct. Social-pres 4's are stoic and have a high capacity to endure. They don't complain about their suffering instead they go after whatever they desire despite the challenge. The index has descriptions of the instincts by Beatrice Chestnut which is definitely worth a read if you haven't already https://www.personalitycafe.com/type-4-forum-individualist/657658-enneagram-type-4-index.html
 

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I'm your type and I could say I'm addicted to longing. I had moments when I would actually got what I wanted so bad and just like that it becomes uninteresting for me all of a sudden, and I don't want it anymore, or I just think that that was to easy to get, so I quickly try to find something new. It is sick, because that way I never know have I actually wanted it or I just saw it as a challenge and test for myself to see can I get what I want when I want it. If I suffer because I see I can't get that one thing, my longing for it starts to fade away. That is what I'm going through rn and it is fading very slow, almost like I have that little light of hope inside of me till the last point of my longing, but I know that if I get that that's it, I'm going to bale it right away once it is mine, because I don't really want it when I think about it, but my current emotions are telling me I do, but then again when I actualy think of it as it is mine I wouldnt know what to do with it, I don't like it anymore, but even knowing that I still want it beacuse i cant have it. What now??

For me it's like I don't really want anything but being alone, and once I am I'm feeling sorry for myself and trying to see if anyone will notice and offer me their company, but when they do I often don't accept it, cause I feel better on my own, or it just isn't someone I want, or because that reality is not like it is in my imagination. I tend to imagine something that would work perfectly for me, and when it isn't that exact way, I'm done with it. I'm always disappointed with my reality because it is so much better in my imagination, so I rather dream about it than accept it the way it is. I love being alone, in my own world. I learned a lot about all this when I'm talking to somebody online, it could be perfect and everything it possibly could be but even then I tend to refuse to make a step more, eg bring it in reality and actually see who that person is, because I think it would just ruin that perfect image I have in my head, so I just deal with that stage when I'm feeling it is perfect and don't want it to get real.
I'm unhealthy INFP 4w5
 

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And yes, I don't want it because I'm in that stage of life when it would only complicate it even more, so I just tend to imagine it as it could be but don't want it because I don't want to cause more problems that would come with it. That way I'm leaving my reality incomplete and it makes me feel empty, but I've learned to deal with emptiness.
 

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I don't think that we're destined to be alone, per se, but we may always feel different than others, as though we're from another planet. I think that finding kindred spirits is important if you feel lonely as a 4. Finding a clan of fellow aliens. I like to think of us as being like a little coven
 

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hi! i'm a 4w5 :)

i've always appreciated being alone, but since i've found the right person for me, it's more like i appreciate being alone *with* that person. spending time with my s/o is kind of like being with myself--not because we're similar, but because i see him as my other half!
though our personality and how we interact with the world around us is a big part of how we develop throughout our lifespan, we don't have to let our personality dictate our life. you'll find the person for you eventually--a soulmate doesn't have to be a romantic partner, it could be a best friend, a religious entity that you feel a connection with, or etc.
anyone that makes you feel understood, respected, loved, and happy to be alive is someone that you can look at and know that you're not really 'alone'. you'll find them.

i hope this helped a bit :)
 

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4w5 here too. First of all I'd like to also tell that nobody's destined to be alone -- at least not for the Enneagram they are.

Loneliness is just a feeling, remember that. I always feel somehow different from the others and I seem to never fit in anywhere (at least in my head, that is). But it's really just a feeling. We do belong and we're not alone, it's just in our heads. I think we just seek such deep and mind-blowing connections to the people we meet that it gets frustrating when you can't feel that with anyone. Maybe our expectations are too high? Idk. But I've also thought about the possibility of just ending up alone because I can't seem to find *the* connection with anyone. Is it even possible to find that?
 

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We do belong and we're not alone, it's just in our heads.
I totally resonate with that insight because I just realised tonight in a workshop that most of the time I live entranced in my "I am different" world. Due to an intense healing process I am much more comfortable already to express anger or just aversive feelings and I realise that indeed often other people do produce separation and exclusion but that I am playing my part within that when I instantly go and fully embody the person of who I think others talk about.

My main identification is with the five but I am very dearly attached also to the four's I don't belong-belief. I have very painful experiences of course with exclusion and discrimination and I was told over and over again (and I listened so attentively everytime ) that with such and such experiences I cannot belong because it's not what normality is.

It's very interesting because I think with whatever your connection to the four strategy you actually do form your identity very much along these lines where others tell you why you're different. For me it is very helpful to see because I understand that I do not have to stop everyone out there from not accepting me with all my experiences but that I can more focus on the way I am protecting myself with the help of the I don't belong-belief and what I gain. The theory goes that it is a clear understanding of oneself.

I am very curious now!

There is a very beautiful article here:

On Being a Four - Enneagram Monthly

on the Enneagram Monthly "On Being a Four".

I like the article very much because Paula is really also telling about the high side of the type. She's really counterbalancing the often so dreadful picture of the four presented in books. And I belief it is true that the four is not a very appreciated style in the Western countries.

I hope you like the article as well. I could think and write so much more but I still wanna go to one other thread.
 

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I have to add one more important thing. I maybe sometime don't realise how strong fours are. It means that I don't cumpulsively forget hurtful experiences like nines and I don't keep myself running towards new experiences like sevens and so on but that the four really has a bigger capacity to stay with pain than other types.

It is actually written in the books that this is the case and I know it from four friends and aquaintances that it holds quiet true but I couldn't believe it.

I am so alarmed now because I understand much better what I read I believe in Riso and Hudson's Wisdom. Four's can openly and comfortably talk about experiences that are too painful, shameful, anxiety-loaded to others. So we trigger that stuff up in others which they are actually so grateful that they have managed to have gotten rid of it. And of course they don't like so much to be around fours and people with another strong four connection.
 

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4w5 here too. First of all I'd like to also tell that nobody's destined to be alone -- at least not for the Enneagram they are.

Loneliness is just a feeling, remember that. I always feel somehow different from the others and I seem to never fit in anywhere (at least in my head, that is). But it's really just a feeling. We do belong and we're not alone, it's just in our heads. I think we just seek such deep and mind-blowing connections to the people we meet that it gets frustrating when you can't feel that with anyone. Maybe our expectations are too high? Idk. But I've also thought about the possibility of just ending up alone because I can't seem to find *the* connection with anyone. Is it even possible to find that?
Exactly what I was about to say! I think we have pretty high expectations of people. But sometimes I think, "nah, this is normal. These are normal standards/expectations and people should meet them". But then I see the people around me and how they seem to easily connect and relate to each other and truly FEEL loved, and I'm just like, wow, maybe I am asking for too much?

I also realize that it's because people usually approach others (or seem to) without an "agenda", without some kind of idealized image in their head of what kind of gratifying experience they expect to get from interacting or forming a friendship/relationship with others, or an idealized image of what exactly they think the relationship should be like.

I feel like we're looking for the perfect friendship/relationship which sadly is not really possible. We don't like to settle for anything less than what we imagine. We really want a fulfilling, deep relationship and since we can't seem to find that, we feel alone.

And I don't know if it's just me or if it's a 4w5 thing but I think my self-absorption or my self-consciousness gets in the way of me truly being present and enjoying my relationships. I am too self-aware and I'm just thinking of what I want from the relationship and I seem to focus too much on myself, and how I'm feeling.
 

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If I may interject.... the world isn't nearly as deep and fulfilling as you wish it to be. That's brass tacks.

The fulfillment of that 'essential' thing is really just a relaxation of accepting the world around you, for what it is, that it never was, nor will it ever be.

Thus, your life is occurring now.
 

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I’m a 4w5, and I’m wanting some feedback from any others with the same type. The more I read about my type, the more I realize how idiosyncratic and internal we are, and how prone to feeling and being alone. Are there any other 4w5 types out there (or if you know of any) who could speak to this? Basically, is the 4w5 destined to end up alone?
Yes, it feels that way.
 
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