Personality Cafe banner

21 - 34 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,511 Posts
This is just an idea but if you go from 459 to 369, I would say your core is pretty clear. I mean, if one element remains while other change it says a lot more about strength of that one element than anything else.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Discussion Starter #22
I guess I'm confused by this, because you say you like "why" systems, but you seem to deal with them in very "what" ways (eg looking to the traits). I too like "why" systems, and my favorite part is that the "whys" are included! I like that the Enneagram has Vices and Virtues and Holy Ideas and Traps, and all sorts of other stuff! For me, the "why" aspect is essential; a "why" system handled without the "whys" - which I've seen you deem "too abstract" - is nonsensical to me.

I appreciate that identifying with traits is a lot easier than identifying long-term, broad-scale struggles that permeate everything in your life, and I know it's a lot harder to type yourself if you don't identify with some of the more commonly accepted "traits", but I do believe that "true" type will (eventually) shine through.

I did not think of myself as an angry person, and everybody was always saying "8s are angry! 8s should control their anger more!" (reminder that type 1s have the "official" anger issues, not 8s, technically speaking), so it was hard to see myself as an 8. There are still times when I read descriptions and roll my eyes, or take issue with every other sentence. But I'm still an 8.

(still waiting to get back to you on the longer posts, i haven't forgotten)
Yeah, you are at my core. ;-) I like the "why-systems", because they are dynamic and have a lot of potencial to understand myself and other people. The Big Five, in contrast, is something you can see, if you have some basic knowlegde. Yeah, this guy is fighting all the time, he has probably low scores in agreeableness. End of story.

But WHY does he have this? Big Five wants to be exact, which is good in a way. But it's also shallow. And bad, because Big Five is no dynamic system AND has "bad" traits, like neuroticism. Thank god, nobody wants to use Big Five for applying for jobs til now!
But this is another topic.

Back to why-systems, like MBTI (functions!) and enneagram. In this systems i would describe my thinking as "inductive". Ne, is the function i see using the most in everday-life, so i must be ENFP/ENTP!
BUT: I always go by descriptions and tests. And guess what? I get INFP! So, what? Conflict! And neverending-thinking. Til another one tells me: You are an ENFP! And ENFP are no party animals, as often portrayed, because E is simply looking outward, not socialicing! Can be, but mustn't be! Than i ask a few questions and if all kind of fits, it's all good! And i never doubt again.

This is my "problem" with the why and the enneagram, plus not really seeing myself clearly. And it is more abstract than MBTI. For example: "Holy Love" (for 9) or the descriptions of "best version of 9". I can't relate to them! They seem all the same. All in their one way "perfect". "Omniscience" sounds the same as "Holy Love" in a way or "Courage". All "perfect". How can i relate to this?
I am quite fearful for example und could well argue, that Courage/Faith is something i need. Holy Love/Right Action perhaps also! I need all in a way.
But if i look closer at the "traits", i can see: Type 6 does have problems with authority and is reactive. No, that is definitly not a core-problem for me!

I know it gets complicated, when i GENERALLY see myself in a description and THEN start to investigate, whether i know somebody else, who could be a Nine (for example). Than i think, ok, yes, he could be a Nine. But i am not like him. Means this, that i am not a Nine at all?

So, i think in a way, that if i have all traits of a type, i automatically have the why-patterns too. But when descriptions and test say, i am not an 8, how can i think i am an 8, when also the other type-descriptions and test-results fit far better? You know, what i mean?

(I will come to your very fine observation about my dad at the bottom, which i didn't really realized til now!)

@mysterio

Okay! So my 9 friend wonders what exactly you are wondering about him relating to, as seen in this quote (emphasis added by me):

Does it refer to avoiding conflict, or perhaps avoiding one's own needs? This:

came right before the question for him. He responded to this by saying it sounded like a way to still avoid your own needs - yeah, you know what you want, but you convince yourself you can't get it, which keeps you from actually fulfilling those needs.
I meant, whether he could relate to all my "ramblings", nothing in particular! ;-) I was in anti-9-mood at this time. (Which, btw, is very "typical" of me: "Yeah, i am totally a type X! This, this AND THIS fit perfectly!" Next day: "No, i can't be this type, because of X and Y. No way, i misintepreted THIS and THIS also, yesterday. It's clear that i am another type!" And further it goes. I realized yesterday, as i read this thread here again, that i answered to a scenario between 5 and 9 in this thread "pro 5", but yesterday as i read my statement, i thought: Really? You did write THAT?! Why? It was clear to me, yesterday (fwiw!), that i think much more 9ish in this example. I think it was about, what you think, when you do something you don't want to do and about resentment)

But back to topic: Ya, i can see, how your friend sees, that i am not fulfilling my needs and giving up. I didn't really see it and am embarassed about this now! o_O It IS a constant thing in my life though. My motto for the last decade was: "Minimize expectations to avoid being disappointed." Read this in a star-wars-book with 17 or something like that and it sticked til now.

We looked at Chestnut's quicker run-downs of the subtypes for Social 7 and Social 9 that she published here. My 9 friend says the Social 7 sounds nothing like a 7 and everything like a 9. The Social 9 didn't sound anything like what he expected. Yes, you could argue that BC calls these the "counter-types", and while I do believe some counter-types may be a thing, I do not think that they are a good way of self-typing, generally speaking. I also just think the Social 9 description is especially off the mark. The social instinct and type 9 do not seem (to me) to be at odds in any way, and I don't understand why BC puts such a hard "3" spin on this Social 9 description. A social 9 is still a 9, and is just as classic a 9 as the sexual or self-pres 9. The social 9s on this forum have never struck me as this Social 9 description. They have struck me as social-first 9s. (I will admit I am not a big fan of Subtype theory instead of just intersecting instincts and Enneatypes; to me, a 7 is a 7, no matter what instinct is dominant.)
Yeah, the 7 SO sounds very much like a 9, which is why it resonates for me! The 9 SO not so much. But don't get me wrong: The 9 SO fits myself as i am today quite well! But i have problems seeing myself being a 9 SO back as a kid or teenager. But this could surely be, because i was VERY shy and afraid of people. Probably?

Yeah, i don't know, what i want to make out of the subtypes and whether they are a "thing". I find it interesting, that BC doesn't talk about wings at all! Perhaps subtypes are for her the thing about the enneagram, which explains the differences between individual people and their types?
But i could especially see myself as a counter-9, because i always had problems with seeing myself as these extrem LAZY people out there! Lazy in a "hard" way, which is confronting other people! I am lazy in a way, yes, but only in a "nice" way and not doing anything for MYSELF! For others i am usually able to mobilize quite well! At my soccer-club i was ten years the man for all official things about software and administration, because nobody wanted to and i was asked. Never liked it and not doing it anymore. ;-)

Also, a nitpicky thing that I just can't stop myself from snarkily including - in the 5/9 thread, you posted this:



and then in #13 of this thread, you posted:



Is this something you have considered, and/or do you think this could affect your perspective of type 9?
VERY GOOD point!!!! As i mentioned above, this wasn't really on my radar! But it's right. I see my dad as classical nine (could also be a 3, perhaps SX, but i think he is a 9). He is super nice and liked by nearly EVERYBODY! He has his way with kids and always wanted to have them, boys favoured. He got his two boys, which whom he could play soccer! (He was a very good player at his prime!) He is a good diplomat and has a feeling, how to deal with people. Is nearly always happy/content and like a solid rock (especially as i was seriously ill as a kid). But has serious problems with his own agenda! He lives for us, his family and other people from work (doesn't have much friends anymore!).
BUT: We have a great problem in communicating, because my dad feels himself kind of "threatened" through me being some kind of "intellectual". He could never deal with people like this! He is a very kind person, but he never reads and lives in a very grounded way. He has NO calm for reading or abstract thoughts! Normally he is VERY relaxed and can sleep almost instantly, if he wishes. He is kind of a stereotyp-nine, SX or SP, in my opinion.
But we are very different. Especially about the "abstract" part. I know, i am not really abstract or intellectiual (when compared with the people at university), but i also WAY more abstract than a lot of people i know! So, i always thought we couldn't really relate to each other, because i am "different" (people often say to me, that i am "different"). Today i may look like/sound a 9, but in my youth i was much "harder". More distancing, more brooding thoughts, no real people-person, VERY shy and unsure of myself. Also often frightened about a lot of things. So my dad really wanted to have a connection with me and thought i would LIKE to socialize with others but couldn't in a way. It was hard for me to have this "pressure", which was meant good. Now i am not sure, whether i really needed other people and the support i know have or whether my dad had better "left" me alone and finding my way? But i hope you can see, why i have problems seeing myself as a 9, as it seems, because i see my dad as a clear 9...

I read this aloud to the 9. He started laughing self-consciously and then admitted, "It's because we try to forget." I would say (more theoretically) that gut types are characterized as "Anger! Boundaries! Autonomy!" and 9s are pretty... not that. Yes, they have anger, and have boundaries, but they generally don't like to admit it to themselves. 9s can often be seen as the most stubborn of Enneatypes, because of these (hidden) boundaries and desire for autonomy, but the 9 won't say, "Well, you crossed a line, so I'm staying put." Furthermore, 9s tend to disavow anger, boundaries, and any desire for autonomy because they think these things will put a burden on their loved ones, and may even cause their loved ones to leave them! (I mean, I'm not a 9, but this 9 friend and also my type 9 sister (self-pres/social) both say this explanation works for them.)

On this note, my 9 friend would like to ask how you feel about the idea of being a burden to someone, and how you feel when your wants/needs cause conflict.

He'd also like me to state for the record that he is sexual-first, so obviously you and he will have differences, if you do end up typing as 9.
I think your friend and i understand us! Especially the bold part took away one of my thoughts i will get tomorrow or in a few days! :-D

Let me make one thing clear: I HATE TO BE A BURDEN FOR ANYBODY!
Nothing more to say to this. :p I have no tolerance for this and will withdraw immediatly, if i get the vibe of being a burden. Its really frightening! I can't even tolerate watching a film, when i know the person hates this film. I can't watch and enjoy it, no chance! (When i think of this a bit more, i was a VERY HEAVY burden for others, when i got leukemia as a kid! :blushed:)
Conflict is also not nice, but not as bad as being a burden. When i have the chance to influence it, i won't say anything to avoid conflict. Only with people i know really well, like family!

I see in later posts that you are fiddling with the idea of typing as 7. What about the typing resonates with you (trait-based or more theoretical)? My 9 friend wants to know if this self-image of the brain-storming, quick-thinking intellectual has to do with the role of being the intellectual in a group, being relied on as the intellectual? We were very tied up in his intellectualism (he mistyped as INTP for years), and people in high school described him the same way you say your colleagues and others describe you, but it was (very much Ne and) just what people needed him to be, in the group, so he did it. He was "the talented smart guy."
Bullseye! This fits. I see myself as quick-thinkg, brainstorming, and generalist in knowledge. So a 7 from the outside, minus hedonist and running after experiences. A mental 7, in a way. It is perhaps kind of a persona i "play", because i am valued for this. Although i never liked being called a "know-it-all" or "egg-head" etc from my family. I never thought of myself this way, only wanted to show them, that some of their thoughts weren't so "logic" or "useful". I hated, when they said, that all is good, BECAUSE it was always so.
I hated this! Because it IS dumb! Only because something is like this, doesn't mean it HAS to be like this and can't be bettered! Gnah! :laughing:
I think they got kind of threatened, because i brought ideas from university home, which they couldn't relate to at all. Perhaps it's normal than, to assume, that i was an intellectual, simply because i went to university and took some thoughts back home! And as i couldn' really see myself very well, took this picture for my identity?

Good to know: I wasn't the intellectual type at school! There i was the "soccer-guy", nice and a little bit cocky sometimes. Also i was very "little and young" and appeared like 12, when already 16! :p Nothing i am very proud of. o_O

This is just an idea but if you go from 459 to 369, I would say your core is pretty clear. I mean, if one element remains while other change it says a lot more about strength of that one element than anything else.
Yeah, if you see it in this perspective, you are right. It's a strong indicator! :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: periwinklepromise

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Regarding "why" systems:

Perhaps your preferred style won't work so well with the Enneagram; it's not nearly as clear-cut as MBTI, even when accounting for functions. The Enneagram is definitely more abstract, so a more concrete approach may not serve you well. As your stories about MBTI tests prove, tests are not always right about your type. This goes doubly for Enneagram.

Regarding Holy Ideas:

Well, the types are not super close with their Holy Ideas. There is a great distance, we feel, between where we are and where That is. Our egos try to make up for that distance, by doing all kinds of weird, counterproductive stuff. 9s' Holy Idea is Holy Love because 9s feel removed from Holy Love (and have to do things like always just say, "Yeah, whatever you want is fine" in order to "get" love from people). (At least, I think this is right. I haven't done a lot of research into Holy Ideas yet.)

Regarding "relating" to type examples:

Let's use ENFP as an example, since you are sure you're an ENFP. There are lots of other ENFPs, and they can look very different from you, despite sharing MB type. Maybe they have better developed Te, or also relate to Ni. Maybe they are quite a bit more extraverted than you, especially when socializing. Maybe they have a different Enneatype, or a different instinct variant, or just grew up in a different place with a different family situation with different beliefs. All of these confounding variables can also affect how you view Enneatypes. Say you are a 9. You can be different from some other 9 you know (your father, for example) because you have different wings and different instincts, and different head/heart fixes, and they're also an ESTJ but you're an ENFP, and they live in Japan but you're from Germany. No two 9s will be exactly alike, but they will be similar in that they are both 9s.

So, i think in a way, that if i have all traits of a type, i automatically have the why-patterns too. But when descriptions and test say, i am not an 8, how can i think i am an 8, when also the other type-descriptions and test-results fit far better? You know, what i mean?
Regarding this quote, I think of the thread Views from Kanto started in the main Enneagram forum about types and behaviors. "Traits", to me, are related to "behaviors". Behavior can be interpreted in many different ways, depending on all kinds of variables. A person can act in ways we deem "8ish", have "8 traits", but still be a different type. Just look at 8/6, 8/3, 8/7, and 8/1 mistypes and confusions!

I meant, whether he could relate to all my "ramblings", nothing in particular! ;-) I was in anti-9-mood at this time. (Which, btw, is very "typical" of me: "Yeah, i am totally a type X! This, this AND THIS fit perfectly!" Next day: "No, i can't be this type, because of X and Y. No way, i misintepreted THIS and THIS also, yesterday. It's clear that i am another type!" And further it goes. I realized yesterday, as i read this thread here again, that i answered to a scenario between 5 and 9 in this thread "pro 5", but yesterday as i read my statement, i thought: Really? You did write THAT?! Why? It was clear to me, yesterday (fwiw!), that i think much more 9ish in this example. I think it was about, what you think, when you do something you don't want to do and about resentment)
He relates a lot to this kind of indecision, but for him it can often be caused by being a sexual-first 9, and "merging" with someone. Merging can really shift his perspective, so one day it is clear to him that X, but the next (when merging with someone else, perhaps), he feels it is obvious that he is not X.

Random things from your post that I thought were indicative of type 9:

Ya, i can see, how your friend sees, that i am not fulfilling my needs and giving up. I didn't really see it and am embarassed about this now! o_O It IS a constant thing in my life though. My motto for the last decade was: "Minimize expectations to avoid being disappointed." Read this in a star-wars-book with 17 or something like that and it sticked til now.
More distancing, more brooding thoughts, no real people-person, VERY shy and unsure of myself.
Yeah, the 7 SO sounds very much like a 9, which is why it resonates for me!
I am lazy in a way, yes, but only in a "nice" way and not doing anything for MYSELF! For others i am usually able to mobilize quite well! At my soccer-club i was ten years the man for all official things about software and administration, because nobody wanted to and i was asked. Never liked it and not doing it anymore. ;-)
Let me make one thing clear: I HATE TO BE A BURDEN FOR ANYBODY!
Nothing more to say to this. :p I have no tolerance for this and will withdraw immediatly, if i get the vibe of being a burden. Its really frightening! I can't even tolerate watching a film, when i know the person hates this film. I can't watch and enjoy it, no chance! (When i think of this a bit more, i was a VERY HEAVY burden for others, when i got leukemia as a kid! :blushed:)
Conflict is also not nice, but not as bad as being a burden. When i have the chance to influence it, i won't say anything to avoid conflict. Only with people i know really well, like family!
To this last one, my 9 friend says, "For God's sake, he even put it in all caps. Hey, guy! You're a 9!" I'm also far more in the "nurture" camp when it comes to Enneagram (I do not think we are born a certain type, or that Enneatype is innate), so the italicized would be evidence towards 9 from my school of thought. That is to say, you felt like a burden as a child because of the leukemia, and grew up to be someone who never wanted to burden anyone (9).

VERY GOOD point!!!! As i mentioned above, this wasn't really on my radar! But it's right. I see my dad as classical nine (could also be a 3, perhaps SX, but i think he is a 9). He is super nice and liked by nearly EVERYBODY! He has his way with kids and always wanted to have them, boys favoured. He got his two boys, which whom he could play soccer! (He was a very good player at his prime!) He is a good diplomat and has a feeling, how to deal with people. Is nearly always happy/content and like a solid rock (especially as i was seriously ill as a kid). But has serious problems with his own agenda! He lives for us, his family and other people from work (doesn't have much friends anymore!).
BUT: We have a great problem in communicating, because my dad feels himself kind of "threatened" through me being some kind of "intellectual". He could never deal with people like this! He is a very kind person, but he never reads and lives in a very grounded way. He has NO calm for reading or abstract thoughts! Normally he is VERY relaxed and can sleep almost instantly, if he wishes. He is kind of a stereotyp-nine, SX or SP, in my opinion.
But we are very different. Especially about the "abstract" part. I know, i am not really abstract or intellectiual (when compared with the people at university), but i also WAY more abstract than a lot of people i know! So, i always thought we couldn't really relate to each other, because i am "different" (people often say to me, that i am "different"). Today i may look like/sound a 9, but in my youth i was much "harder". More distancing, more brooding thoughts, no real people-person, VERY shy and unsure of myself. Also often frightened about a lot of things. So my dad really wanted to have a connection with me and thought i would LIKE to socialize with others but couldn't in a way. It was hard for me to have this "pressure", which was meant good. Now i am not sure, whether i really needed other people and the support i know have or whether my dad had better "left" me alone and finding my way? But i hope you can see, why i have problems seeing myself as a 9, as it seems, because i see my dad as a clear 9...
Yeah, I'm not sure what to do with this, but I do think typing your parents before yourself (esp if you don't get along with your parents) can get in the way of an accurate self-typing, esp if you do share a type but are still very different people. Thinking, "Well, I can't be X, they're X" gets in the way, imo.

Bullseye! This fits. I see myself as quick-thinkg, brainstorming, and generalist in knowledge. So a 7 from the outside, minus hedonist and running after experiences. A mental 7, in a way. It is perhaps kind of a persona i "play", because i am valued for this. Although i never liked being called a "know-it-all" or "egg-head" etc from my family. I never thought of myself this way, only wanted to show them, that some of their thoughts weren't so "logic" or "useful". I hated, when they said, that all is good, BECAUSE it was always so.
A big part of the 7 is the hedonist running after experiences, so if you don't relate to those things (even in odd ways), then I'd guess you're not a 7. The rest can be attributed to Ne-dominance (Ne-doms notoriously first type at 7). Also, all 7s are "mental 7s", so I'm not sure what that really means? Being "valued for a persona" sounds like 9, 2, or 3 to me.

Also, regarding the "it's good because it has always been so": This, in addition to how you speak about your father (eg "he hates the abstract" "he has no time for reading or intellectual stuff" "i'm way more abstract that most people"), makes me think of a N/S split in Myers Briggs more than anything. Could this be your Ne getting frustrated at Si? I know lots of people get annoyed when people bring Myers Briggs into the Enneagram, but if you haven't gotten used to "switching gears", as such, it can be easy to bring MBTI concerns into discussion about Enneatypes.

Also, I agree with what Prada said.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Regarding "why" systems:

Perhaps your preferred style won't work so well with the Enneagram; it's not nearly as clear-cut as MBTI, even when accounting for functions. The Enneagram is definitely more abstract, so a more concrete approach may not serve you well. As your stories about MBTI tests prove, tests are not always right about your type. This goes doubly for Enneagram.
Yes, that's right. BUT: I like the challenge of discovering the enneagram (in me!). :) It's a cool system with a lot of depth. That it is not easy (for me), speaks FOR it, not AGAINST this system.

Regarding Holy Ideas:

Well, the types are not super close with their Holy Ideas. There is a great distance, we feel, between where we are and where That is. Our egos try to make up for that distance, by doing all kinds of weird, counterproductive stuff. 9s' Holy Idea is Holy Love because 9s feel removed from Holy Love (and have to do things like always just say, "Yeah, whatever you want is fine" in order to "get" love from people). (At least, I think this is right. I haven't done a lot of research into Holy Ideas yet.)
The thing about your interpreation of "Holy Love" resonates with me quite hard. Never thought it would be enough to be just me, to get love. Had to earn it, with being over-nice, which is always a shot in the foot.

Regarding "relating" to type examples:

Let's use ENFP as an example, since you are sure you're an ENFP. There are lots of other ENFPs, and they can look very different from you, despite sharing MB type. Maybe they have better developed Te, or also relate to Ni. Maybe they are quite a bit more extraverted than you, especially when socializing. Maybe they have a different Enneatype, or a different instinct variant, or just grew up in a different place with a different family situation with different beliefs. All of these confounding variables can also affect how you view Enneatypes. Say you are a 9. You can be different from some other 9 you know (your father, for example) because you have different wings and different instincts, and different head/heart fixes, and they're also an ESTJ but you're an ENFP, and they live in Japan but you're from Germany. No two 9s will be exactly alike, but they will be similar in that they are both 9s.
I know this and thank you! But i am the one, who has to decide whether i am really one of those 9ers OR a 5 or XY. If there are so much different 9s, there are also so much different 5s! And perhaps also a 5, who looks like a 9 and wants to be a 9. ;-) This is the problem. Especially, when you see a 9, which is a lot different from yourself, in your opinion. And for example the theme of "resignation" is something you find in both literatures about the 5 or 9.

Regarding this quote, I think of the thread Views from Kanto started in the main Enneagram forum about types and behaviors. "Traits", to me, are related to "behaviors". Behavior can be interpreted in many different ways, depending on all kinds of variables. A person can act in ways we deem "8ish", have "8 traits", but still be a different type. Just look at 8/6, 8/3, 8/7, and 8/1 mistypes and confusions!
True! Doesn't make it easier, though, see above.

He relates a lot to this kind of indecision, but for him it can often be caused by being a sexual-first 9, and "merging" with someone. Merging can really shift his perspective, so one day it is clear to him that X, but the next (when merging with someone else, perhaps), he feels it is obvious that he is not X.
Could he please explain, how he experiences "merging"? For me it's nothing but a construct in my mind, til now. Is this really, that you "forget" what you want/wish to say/ or feel and only have these things about the other in your mind? For me it is more (as i understand "merging") like, i know what he/she wants and i don't like it, when he/she doesn't like what i want, so yeah, let us do, what he/she wants! But i KNOW what i (don't) want, mostly.

To this last one, my 9 friend says, "For God's sake, he even put it in all caps. Hey, guy! You're a 9!" I'm also far more in the "nurture" camp when it comes to Enneagram (I do not think we are born a certain type, or that Enneatype is innate), so the italicized would be evidence towards 9 from my school of thought. That is to say, you felt like a burden as a child because of the leukemia, and grew up to be someone who never wanted to burden anyone (9).
Strongest point for 9, i ever heard/had. Yeah, i agree.

Yeah, I'm not sure what to do with this, but I do think typing your parents before yourself (esp if you don't get along with your parents) can get in the way of an accurate self-typing, esp if you do share a type but are still very different people. Thinking, "Well, I can't be X, they're X" gets in the way, imo.
Yeah, it gets in the way. But i get along with my parents! :p

A big part of the 7 is the hedonist running after experiences, so if you don't relate to those things (even in odd ways), then I'd guess you're not a 7. The rest can be attributed to Ne-dominance (Ne-doms notoriously first type at 7). Also, all 7s are "mental 7s", so I'm not sure what that really means? Being "valued for a persona" sounds like 9, 2, or 3 to me.
Right! "Mental 7" should have meant: Inner 7! Thinking like a 7, but not acting like this.

Also, regarding the "it's good because it has always been so": This, in addition to how you speak about your father (eg "he hates the abstract" "he has no time for reading or intellectual stuff" "i'm way more abstract that most people"), makes me think of a N/S split in Myers Briggs more than anything. Could this be your Ne getting frustrated at Si? I know lots of people get annoyed when people bring Myers Briggs into the Enneagram, but if you haven't gotten used to "switching gears", as such, it can be easy to bring MBTI concerns into discussion about Enneatypes.

Also, I agree with what Prada said.
Yeah, this could sure be my Ne talking. ;-) Always thought i am the only N on this planet! :-D I think because of my Ne i got my "egg-head" and "know-it-all".

So, in conclusion? 9? ;-) (If 9, i get the w1, too! :-D )
But next: Subtype! :-D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
The thing about your interpreation of "Holy Love" resonates with me quite hard. Never thought it would be enough to be just me, to get love. Had to earn it, with being over-nice, which is always a shot in the foot.
In case you wrote this without realizing - this is type 9 stuff. All types go back to 9, in that all types (deep deep down) think they have to do something in order to be worthy of love, just like type 9. 9s tend to do it by forgetting the self, forgetting their needs and wants, being totally self-effacing and always going along with what others want, so that people will find them easy to love. Reconnecting with Holy Love will mean realizing that you are already easy to love, that you are already worthy of love, and that being yourself does not make you hard to love.

Could he please explain, how he experiences "merging"? For me it's nothing but a construct in my mind, til now. Is this really, that you "forget" what you want/wish to say/ or feel and only have these things about the other in your mind? For me it is more (as i understand "merging") like, i know what he/she wants and i don't like it, when he/she doesn't like what i want, so yeah, let us do, what he/she wants! But i KNOW what i (don't) want, mostly.
He's not here right now, but we've spoken about it in depth, so here goes. He completely forgets his own priorities when he's merging. It's actually kinda frightening for me, having known him so long, to see him change so completely just because he has a new friend, a new merging-goal. Because he does change completely, especially when he's around that Person. He'll change the clothes he wears, the books and shows he likes. He'll change the language he uses and the things he believes in - around me, he's super against racism, but around *Person*, he may let racist things slide or try to half-justify the position, if Person is kinda racist! It's appalling to me, but he honestly doesn't realize that he's doing it, and he thinks he's just being nice/considerate and avoiding conflict he doesn't want to deal with. He can mistype on personality tests depending on who he's closest to - he'll match their type. He can nod along enthusiastically to a professor with one argument, and then be just as agreeable to someone with the opposite argument! Another time, he got really into hookup apps and casual sex, which he had never been interested in before. Several months later, completely randomly, he informs me that he has just now (several months later!) realized that he only did that because that Person (Merge Goal) was really overtly sexual, and they did those kinds of things, so he thought he wanted to as well! He totally believed he was just growing as a person, and exploring new things, while he was doing these things; it was only later he realized he was merging with someone else, doing what they wanted for themselves, even if it's not what he wants for himself.

As far as I can tell, from the outside perspective, he does forget his original position while merging. When he's not merging, he can still acquiesce to what other people want and be very passive, but internally, he'll know he doesn't like it, but he just has a very hard time saying no to people. I feel the "not merging" situation is more common to all 9s, but the "merging" might be more particular to just sexual-first 9s (it may also extend to other sexual subtypes, but idk).

Right! "Mental 7" should have meant: Inner 7! Thinking like a 7, but not acting like this.
I agree with those who argue, "If you think/relate to a type only internally, and do not act like that type, you are not that type." I am also just not entirely sure what thinking like a 7 would entail without also acting like that. I have a 7 wing, and thinking in 7 ways leads me to act in 7 ways. I refuse to be tied down in my mind, so I refuse to be tied down in real life. I'm the kind of person who keeps on running (quite literally, sometimes).

So, in conclusion? 9? ;-) (If 9, i get the w1, too! :-D )
But next: Subtype! :-D
I was looking through the smileys to see if we had any good nodding/victory ones, but then I found this!

:kirby:

We have Kirby!

:kirby::kirby::kirby::kirby::kirby:

I love Kirby!


anyway, don't you think you're social-first? i could see so/sp/sx just at a guess?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
In case you wrote this without realizing - this is type 9 stuff. All types go back to 9, in that all types (deep deep down) think they have to do something in order to be worthy of love, just like type 9. 9s tend to do it by forgetting the self, forgetting their needs and wants, being totally self-effacing and always going along with what others want, so that people will find them easy to love. Reconnecting with Holy Love will mean realizing that you are already easy to love, that you are already worthy of love, and that being yourself does not make you hard to love.
Yeah, i did know that and it was the first which popped up my mind, while writing. I can see know, that my complex about being likeable (as you witnessed in my other thread) is a core-9-complex, that i think i must be over-nice to make people love me.

He's not here right now, but we've spoken about it in depth, so here goes. He completely forgets his own priorities when he's merging. It's actually kinda frightening for me, having known him so long, to see him change so completely just because he has a new friend, a new merging-goal. Because he does change completely, especially when he's around that Person. He'll change the clothes he wears, the books and shows he likes. He'll change the language he uses and the things he believes in - around me, he's super against racism, but around *Person*, he may let racist things slide or try to half-justify the position, if Person is kinda racist! It's appalling to me, but he honestly doesn't realize that he's doing it, and he thinks he's just being nice/considerate and avoiding conflict he doesn't want to deal with. He can mistype on personality tests depending on who he's closest to - he'll match their type. He can nod along enthusiastically to a professor with one argument, and then be just as agreeable to someone with the opposite argument! Another time, he got really into hookup apps and casual sex, which he had never been interested in before. Several months later, completely randomly, he informs me that he has just now (several months later!) realized that he only did that because that Person (Merge Goal) was really overtly sexual, and they did those kinds of things, so he thought he wanted to as well! He totally believed he was just growing as a person, and exploring new things, while he was doing these things; it was only later he realized he was merging with someone else, doing what they wanted for themselves, even if it's not what he wants for himself.
I kind if relate to the thing about being nice and wanting to understand the perspective of the other. I also almost NEVER contradict anyone when talking. Always nodding, always seeming to think in the same way. But inside, i know, i am feeling kind of "anxious", because i "feel" i am not exactly seeing it like the other and it makes me uncomfortable. I fear "saying" a contradiction. Perhaps it's really about the subtypes/instincts?
So i don't know, whether i really "merge" or not. It's some of my 9-doubting-problems!

As far as I can tell, from the outside perspective, he does forget his original position while merging. When he's not merging, he can still acquiesce to what other people want and be very passive, but internally, he'll know he doesn't like it, but he just has a very hard time saying no to people. I feel the "not merging" situation is more common to all 9s, but the "merging" might be more particular to just sexual-first 9s (it may also extend to other sexual subtypes, but idk).
Ok, i would be on the "not merging" side of things. But i would like to merge in a way!

I agree with those who argue, "If you think/relate to a type only internally, and do not act like that type, you are not that type." I am also just not entirely sure what thinking like a 7 would entail without also acting like that. I have a 7 wing, and thinking in 7 ways leads me to act in 7 ways. I refuse to be tied down in my mind, so I refuse to be tied down in real life. I'm the kind of person who keeps on running (quite literally, sometimes).
Yeah, i think it's plausible my Ne seems to identify with some descriptions of the 7. A lot of people think so too. But in my opinion Se is MUCH more 7!

I was looking through the smileys to see if we had any good nodding/victory ones, but then I found this!

:kirby:

We have Kirby!

:kirby::kirby::kirby::kirby::kirby:

I love Kirby!


anyway, don't you think you're social-first? i could see so/sp/sx just at a guess?
Congrats to your victory! :proud:
And thank you very much for your patience and help til now! :happy: Couldn't imagine coming this fast this far with my self-knowledge without you!

So, you do think So first, Sx last? Because of the merging-thing?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Congrats to your victory! :proud:
And thank you very much for your patience and help til now! :happy: Couldn't imagine coming this fast this far with my self-knowledge without you!
:kirby:

I hereby declare the Kirby to be my victory symbol! Also,

So, you do think So first, Sx last? Because of the merging-thing?
I'm not super good with the instincts, because I still haven't really figured them out for myself yet and/or what I think the best interpretations are, but yes, how you relate to the idea of "merging" indicates sx-last to me, and how you discuss "not merging" seems like, "I'm still a 9, just not sx-first."

Your claims to social instinct dominance never seemed amiss to me. The attention you give to the social arena - including quoting others to explain yourself - indicates so-first to me, especially since my sp 9 sister doesn't give that sort of attention, preferring to numb out, instead of be aware of a situation she doesn't like.

Furthermore, so/sp/sx individuals have a presence - even online - that is solid without being boring. I would categorize your vibe as such.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
:kirby:

I hereby declare the Kirby to be my victory symbol! Also,
Nice one! :-D I will watch your rise of victorys in the future ahead! :p


I'm not super good with the instincts, because I still haven't really figured them out for myself yet and/or what I think the best interpretations are, but yes, how you relate to the idea of "merging" indicates sx-last to me, and how you discuss "not merging" seems like, "I'm still a 9, just not sx-first."

Your claims to social instinct dominance never seemed amiss to me. The attention you give to the social arena - including quoting others to explain yourself - indicates so-first to me, especially since my sp 9 sister doesn't give that sort of attention, preferring to numb out, instead of be aware of a situation she doesn't like.

Furthermore, so/sp/sx individuals have a presence - even online - that is solid without being boring. I would categorize your vibe as such.
Solid? Never would have imagined somebody telling me THIS! :-D But perhaps you can help me out: What do you mean by "solid"? And why not so/sx/sp? How come they across?

Do you consider PerC as "social arena" in a way?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
Solid? Never would have imagined somebody telling me THIS! :-D But perhaps you can help me out: What do you mean by "solid"? And why not so/sx/sp? How come they across?

Do you consider PerC as "social arena" in a way?
I mean, yeah, you're scattered a bit (you're an Ne user, for crying out loud), but yeah, you seem decently solid. Most 9s are. 1s and 8s with the 9 wing also tend to be very "solid". This does not necessarily mean "grounded" (esp with 9s) but the two can be related. Dependable is also related. It's like... a quiet, appreciative nod. That's the best way I can explain it, but I have no idea if that gets understood.

I don't know if I know many so/sx/sp people, so I don't have a useful type-vibe profile in my head. I thought for the past year that I was so/sx, but now I'm thinking I may be sx/so instead. Who knows.

I think PerC can be a social arena, but I don't think it is necessarily one. I use PerC for social instinct and intellectual purposes. I like being able to talk about this kind of stuff, and learning so much about the Enneagram. I'm not super good at socializing on here, and I rarely response to threads if I don't think I have something useful to add, while I see some people who respond to literally everything, even if their posts seem (to me) insubstantial. Not sure that's type-related though.

Do you see PerC as a social arena?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Discussion Starter #30
I mean, yeah, you're scattered a bit (you're an Ne user, for crying out loud), but yeah, you seem decently solid. Most 9s are. 1s and 8s with the 9 wing also tend to be very "solid". This does not necessarily mean "grounded" (esp with 9s) but the two can be related. Dependable is also related. It's like... a quiet, appreciative nod. That's the best way I can explain it, but I have no idea if that gets understood.

I don't know if I know many so/sx/sp people, so I don't have a useful type-vibe profile in my head. I thought for the past year that I was so/sx, but now I'm thinking I may be sx/so instead. Who knows.

I think PerC can be a social arena, but I don't think it is necessarily one. I use PerC for social instinct and intellectual purposes. I like being able to talk about this kind of stuff, and learning so much about the Enneagram. I'm not super good at socializing on here, and I rarely response to threads if I don't think I have something useful to add, while I see some people who respond to literally everything, even if their posts seem (to me) insubstantial. Not sure that's type-related though.

Do you see PerC as a social arena?
Did you say "not grounded" because you see me this way or because i think i am not "grounded"? ;-)
But i can understand your words and now know, how you mean "soild", thanks! :)

I never thought about PerC as a social arena, but also never thought about a "social arena" in general. What do you associate with "social arena" in general? For me, it would be a kind of "network" with people in there and a possibility for me to dive into this arena to make contact in a way.
I don't know, whether this applies to me and why i am here though. Sure, i like to read and discuss what interests me (in this case "the personality", of me and others around me), because i think i don't have this in my life (nobody around me, who is interested in these themes). I also would like to help somebody, when i have sufficient knowledge (which i still lack in my opinion about the enneagram). Does this have something to do with the concept of the "social arena"?
But i think, we have some things in common about this and IF this applies to the instincts. ;-)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
897 Posts
I mean, yeah, you're scattered a bit (you're an Ne user, for crying out loud), but yeah, you seem decently solid. Most 9s are. 1s and 8s with the 9 wing also tend to be very "solid". This does not necessarily mean "grounded" (esp with 9s) but the two can be related. Dependable is also related. It's like... a quiet, appreciative nod. That's the best way I can explain it, but I have no idea if that gets understood.

I don't know if I know many so/sx/sp people, so I don't have a useful type-vibe profile in my head. I thought for the past year that I was so/sx, but now I'm thinking I may be sx/so instead. Who knows.

I think PerC can be a social arena, but I don't think it is necessarily one. I use PerC for social instinct and intellectual purposes. I like being able to talk about this kind of stuff, and learning so much about the Enneagram.
I don't know if we're using the word the same way, but the only type I've described as having a 'solid' quality is the Eight. The way they carry themselves and their demeanor makes them seem 'unmoveable' and unyielding to anything external. They tend to hold eye contact longer than most people, for example. I can think of some obvious 9s I would also describe as solid in a similar but different way. They all seem like 8 wings though. I wouldn't describe the 1 wing as coming across like that, but if you mean it more broadly than I do, and include people who give off a sense of dependability, I could see that for 9w1s I know. I would definitely describe my 9w1 mother as dependable, but that could be because she's an ISFJ. I aspire to be dependable and I would imagine people pick up on my desire to be so, but I'm so disorganised that I'm the opposite when not on Ritalin (all of this is about me unmedicated, by the way, medicated is a totally other story).

When I try to put my finger on why those words feel right for some 9s, I keep coming back to the notion of 'steady energy', which I see in other 9s but not myself really. My energy levels are very high, I'm very fidgety, scattered and animated, and I speak and move very rapidly and impulsively, often bumping into objects and people. All this makes me look and feel and like a trembling, spitting firecracker about to explode when I get charged up, e.g. when socialising. I've seen footage of myself and there's nothing 'steady' about it to my mind. But maybe there's SOME sense in which I come across as solid, in at least some contexts?

I'm interested that you think the so/sp stacking has that quality as well. I'm curious, would you describe my online presence in those terms, as you do @mysterio?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
615 Posts
I don't know if we're using the word the same way,
Yeah, I don't think we are.

but the only type I've described as having a 'solid' quality is the Eight. The way they carry themselves and their demeanor makes them seem 'unmoveable' and unyielding to anything external. They tend to hold eye contact longer than most people, for example.
This, for instance, is put in "grounded" territory, not "solid", for me. "The way they carry themselves" is the key for me. I don't use solid to refer to how people physically carry themselves, I use grounded for that.

I can think of some obvious 9s I would also describe as solid in a similar but different way. They all seem like 8 wings though. I wouldn't describe the 1 wing as coming across like that, but if you mean it more broadly than I do, and include people who give off a sense of dependability, I could see that for 9w1s I know. I would definitely describe my 9w1 mother as dependable, but that could be because she's an ISFJ. I aspire to be dependable and I would imagine people pick up on my desire to be so, but I'm so disorganised that I'm the opposite when not on Ritalin (all of this is about me unmedicated, by the way, medicated is a totally other story).
Yes, to me, dependability is important for seeing someone as solid, at least in real life. I'm sorry, I know I'm not very good at explaining this (my Ti is very good in my head, not so great out loud).

When I try to put my finger on why those words feel right for some 9s, I keep coming back to the notion of 'steady energy', which I see in other 9s
See, your "steady energy" is maybe more my "solid"? Steady and solid (for vibe) are close, in my mind.

but not myself really. My energy levels are very high, I'm very fidgety, scattered and animated, and I speak and move very rapidly and impulsively, often bumping into objects and people. All this makes me look and feel and like a trembling, spitting firecracker about to explode when I get charged up, e.g. when socialising. I've seen footage of myself and there's nothing 'steady' about it to my mind. But maybe there's SOME sense in which I come across as solid, in at least some contexts?

I'm interested that you think the so/sp stacking has that quality as well. I'm curious, would you describe my online presence in those terms, as you do mysterio?
Unfortunately, I don't think I've interacted with you enough or read enough of your posts to really have a strong sense of your vibe. For me, the vague vibe I do get from you does not *super* correspond with any instinctual vibe profiles I currently have. On a rudimentary basis, I would say that you do seem less "solid"/"steady" to me (not that this should be taken as a questioning of your type), but I've also seen your posts where you speak of non-Enneagram-related neurodivergence (was it ADHD?), so maybe that affects your vibe/how people perceive your energy?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
Hiho! :) Thx for your input! But my doubts already got me! :dry:
So i am having my last fight with myself in figuring out my type! I could really need a hand...
... you find my last type-me-thread-ever here: Final Decision. Thx in advance! :proud:
 
21 - 34 of 34 Posts
Top