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Discussion Starter #1
Take everything I'm about to say with a grain of salt. I'm not an expert. These are just my opinions. You don't like them, explain why. Etc. You get the jist. Let's begin.

Extroversion and Introversion.
In Jungian typology E&I basically means what you focus on. If you're an extrovert, you focus on the outside world. This makes you more objective. If you're an introvert, you focus on your subjective interpretations. Thus, you become more individualistic and less objective.

Judgement: Thinking and Feeling.
Thinking is a judgement axis that focuses on what's true and false. Feeling is a judgement axis that focuses on what's good and bad.

Perception: Sensing and Intuition.
Sensing is a perceiving function that focuses on what is and what isn't. Intuition is a perceiving function that focuses on what could be and what couldn't be.

Mix the judgement and perceiving functions with extroversion and introversion and you get 8 functions.

Thinking functions:
Extroverted thinking: You focus on what's true and false. You're focus on this is on the outside world. This function can be characterized as being Factual, as you care about true and false facts. Extroverted thinkers are thus effective thinkers, caring about what works in reality.

Introverted thinking: You focus on what's true and false. You're focus on this is on your inner world. This function can be characterized as being Logical, as you care about what should be true and false without facts in the picture. Introverted thinkers are thus analytical thinkers, caring about what should make sense.

Feeling functions:
Extroverted feeling: You focus on what's good and bad. You're focus on this is on the outside world. This function can be characterized as being Harmonizing, as you care about what is good and bad on a societal level. Extroverted feelers are thus socially conscious individuals, caring about what will bring about community values.

Introverted feeling: You focus on what's good and bad. You're focus on this is in your inner world. This function can be characterized as being Authentic, as you care about what is good and bad on an individual level. Introverted feelers are thus self aware individuals, caring about staying true to themselves.

Sensing functions:
Extroverted sensing: You focus on what is or isn't. You're focus on this is on the outside world. This function can be characterized as being Realistic, as you care about what is or isn't, within reality. Extroverted sensors are thus highly realistic individuals, who focus on what simply is and isn't, without a need for further filtering.

Introverted sensing: You focus on what is or isn't. You're focus on this is in your inner world. This function can be characterized as being Practical, as you care about what is or isn't, on a personal level. Introverted sensors are thus highly practical individuals, who know what worked in the past, being able to weave into any system that's material and real.

Intuitive functions:
Extroverted intuition: You focus on what could or couldn't be. You're focus on this is on the outside world. This function can be characterized as being Imaginative, as you care about what could or couldn't be, within reality. Extroverted intuitives are thus individuals with strong levels of creativity, capable of seeing what the applications of things could be on very high levels.

Introverted intuition: You focus on what could or couldn't be. You're focus on this is in your inner world. This function can be characterized as being Contemplative, as you care about what could or couldn't be, on a personal level. Introverted intuitives are thus individuals with a large scope, capable of visualizing the bigger picture of things, their lives and those of others.

How the 16 types fall into this:

SFs: Social Intelligence

ISFJ: Practical and harmonizing individuals. Guardian.
ESFJ: Harmonizing and practical individuals. Aide.
ISFP: Authentic and realistic individuals. Artist.
ESFP: Realistic and authentic individuals. Performer.

STs: Practical Intelligence

ISTJ: Practical and factual individuals. Inspector.
ESTJ: Factual and practical individuals. Examiner.
ISTP: Logical and realistic individuals. Technician.
ESTP: Realistic and logical individuals. Doer.

NFs: Psychological Intelligence

INFJ: Contemplative and harmonizing individuals. Sage.
ENFJ: Harmonizing and contemplative individuals. Mentor.
INFP: Authentic and imaginative individuals. Idealist.
ENFP: Imaginative and authentic individuals. Champion.

NTs: Logical Intelligence (pretty half-assed, but I'm basically implying standard intelligence)

INTJ: Contemplative and factual individuals. Iconoclast.
ENTJ: Factual and contemplative individuals. Executive.
INTP: Logical and imaginative individuals. Logician.
ENTP: Imaginative and logical individuals. Innovator.
 

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Plague Doctor
INTJ, 5w4, Ni-T type
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Well, for what it's worth, I think this is an excellent overview of the functions delivered in a succinct and structured way. I like the titles you have for each type. I identify with Iconoclast much better than some of the other titles that have been made up for INTJs.

I really appreciate information when it's organized like this. : )
 
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Extroversion and Introversion.
In Jungian typology E&I basically means what you focus on. If you're an extrovert, you focus on the outside world. This makes you more objective. If you're an introvert, you focus on your subjective interpretations. Thus, you become more individualistic and less objective.
Not exactly. Jung applied objective and subjective with nuanced definitions.

Objective = reliance on external data.
Subjective = reliant on internal perceptions.

So, extraverts were categorised as objective and introverts subjective because of their dependencies.

Judgement: Thinking and Feeling.
Thinking is a judgement axis that focuses on what's true and false. Feeling is a judgement axis that focuses on what's good and bad.
No. Thinking is a logical decision making function. Feeling is a values premised decision making function. All four are rational decision making functions.

Perception: Sensing and Intuition.
Sensing is a perceiving function that focuses on what is and what isn't. Intuition is a perceiving function that focuses on what could be and what couldn't be.
Sensing is focused on the concrete, whether environmentally or historically. iNtuition focuses on what's possible, probable, underlying meanings, connections and patterns.

The balance of the descriptions require amendments, premised on the above.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Not exactly. Jung applied objective and subjective with nuanced definitions.

Objective = reliance on external data.
Subjective = reliant on internal perceptions.

So, extraverts were categorised as objective and introverts subjective because of their dependencies.

No. Thinking is a logical decision making function. Feeling is a values premised decision making function. All four are rational decision making functions.

Sensing is focused on the concrete, whether environmentally or historically. iNtuition focuses on what's possible, probable, underlying meanings, connections and patterns.

The balance of the descriptions require amendments, premised on the above.
Interesting reply. I have a few questions as I'm confused.

1. How is your first point a distinction to the point of focus? What I mean is, what is the difference between saying:
Extroversion is a dependence on objectivity.
And
Extroversion is a focus on objectivity.

2. Logic can be aptly defined as the assertion of what is true and false. The only reason why I distinguished Te and Ti as Factual and Logical respectively is because Te does depend on facts, while Ti doesn't. Also, values are a judgement of what's good and bad. So in a way, you are simply giving me another equally correct definition of the term "feeling" in Jungian Typology.

3. I stated that Sensing focuses on what is and what isn't. You define it as a focus on the concrete. These two things mean the same thing. I stated that Intuition focuses on what could and what couldn't. You define it as a focus on what's possible. These also mean the same thing.

I'm not trying to rub you the wrong what, I just want a sensible conversation. I hope you can answer my questions.
 

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Interesting reply. I have a few questions as I'm confused.

1. How is your first point a distinction to the point of focus? What I mean is, what is the difference between saying:
Extroversion is a dependence on objectivity.
And
Extroversion is a focus on objectivity.
That's not the issue. In vernacular speech, the definition of objective is impartiality and subjective, partial. Jung applied the terms in a different manner.

2. Logic can be aptly defined as the assertion of what is true and false. The only reason why I distinguished Te and Ti as Factual and Logical respectively is because Te does depend on facts, while Ti doesn't. Also, values are a judgement of what's good and bad. So in a way, you are simply giving me another equally correct definition of the term "feeling" in Jungian Typology.
Logic isn't about true or false. If the opening premise is inaccurate or missing data, one can apply logic and still end up with a false conclusion.

3. I stated that Sensing focuses on what is and what isn't. You define it as a focus on the concrete. These two things mean the same thing. I stated that Intuition focuses on what could and what couldn't. You define it as a focus on what's possible. These also mean the same thing.
Your explanation lacked the Si and Ni components so you oversimplified by leaving out 2/4 components.

I'm not trying to rub you the wrong what, I just want a sensible conversation. I hope you can answer my questions.
Refer to above explanations.
 

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You are aware that NFS generally score lower in regards to IQ correct?
 

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Feeling values are a bit more nuanced than just good and bad though. Agreement and rejection are the basic feeling attitudes one can have, but it is a bit more sophisticated than that; a Fe dominant will have the most varied values and the Fi dominat will have the most nuanced ones. Ethical good can be derived logically too, but it will be very different from reasoning that starts with a feeling value.
 

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I love the 'bottom-up' approach. Ni likes to look at everything from a 'top-down' perspective, while Si views things from a 'bottom-up' perspective (although I hate the fact that there could be a hidden implication that top might be better than bottom, because that's just not right).

I think a big reason that so many Ni-users run away with the theory is that it tends to be presented in a very abstract and high concept light. Si-users just don't think in those terms. Si-users need to start from the facts and observations and work from there to reach the abstract level (if they would even find the abstract level relevant that is).

Honestly, I think we need 16 explanations for MBTI. Each one presented to be easily accessible for a single MBTI type. We just all have a different way to construct a theory in our brains. If an INTJ has to start from the dry facts he's going to throw the theory out the window, while an ISFJ starting from the high concepts will page through to find the part that's actually relevant to the actual world.

I applaud your efforts to reconstruct the theory to be more accessible to Si-users. Please keep up the good work and try to not be led too much by the Ni-users that don't see the way you're presenting it as relevant. Their brains work different and they can't help themselves.
 

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Take everything I'm about to say with a grain of salt. I'm not an expert. These are just my opinions. You don't like them, explain why. Etc. You get the jist. Let's begin.

Mix the judgement and perceiving functions with extroversion and introversion and you get 8 functions.


Thinking functions:
Extroverted thinking: You focus on what's true and false. You're focus on this is on the outside world. This function can be characterized as being Factual, as you care about true and false facts. Extroverted thinkers are thus effective thinkers, caring about what works in reality.


Introverted thinking: You focus on what's true and false. You're focus on this is on your inner world. This function can be characterized as being Logical, as you care about what should be true and false without facts in the picture. Introverted thinkers are thus analytical thinkers, caring about what should make sense.
I think it would be useful to go into more depth; to expand deeper on "what thinking is," at minimum, or what exactly "thinking," consistutes: as 'facts, truths, falsities,' et al is simply vague on it's own (with many complex) meanings to which seems cause more confusion than not, ("T-users are more logical"), and I think such fixations via 'logic, truth' et al, in typology are side-effects, rather than functions overall "focus,".


What (both) (Te/Ti) Thinking - are concerned/focused on is not "truths, facts, logic," but rather with :: (D, E, F)


Ex; (A)

(D) Structure: - All internalized (physical - properties / rules / attributes / substances') belonging to (X);

(E) "Things":- All external intimate-objects consisting of (attribtes / properties / substances)

(F) "Objects": - All external events, state-of-affairs, occurrences, et al - "existing," outside the subject/self



(Te) does not care about "truths," nor falsehoods - a (Te) is production/transformation of 'objects/structure/things' - and high-functioning (Te)-usage/users are concerned via transforming error / data / objects [in the same way Se transforms space / movements], and wishes to disturb the atmosphere.

(Te) is not a 'quiet' uncontradictory, inevitable truth; it is a loud fact, & can be contradictory.

Similar to (Se) that is Transforming space - movements - ("external") through pushing through the environment:


(Te) - Transformining the ("external") through production of 'making ends meet': (Te) utilizes facts, not truths or falsehoods, to connect the train set in the environment (this can occur between trains of specimens - or 'managing' the environmental objects) through events, state-of-affairs (ontic / facts) - and 'things' (re: scheduling / "graph-making" / Examples, bullets),". It makes logical judgments on data, information.




Ex; (A1)

Coupled with (Intuition) you will then start to see this 'time-management,' or this sense of urgency to be busy, to be moving persona extroverted through the ENTJ - and some INTJ respectively.


(Te)-users will be utilizing (F, E) in this order from Example A.



[HR][/HR]


(Ti) "cares" about truths / falsehoods - but only to the extent that the 'definition' of truth is lack of contradiction; they 'access' these inconsistent (or rather decipher through systematicies through "analysis,"). Analytic work; indepth scalpel-cutting in loops, by implication of fixation heavy 'structure', one must be somewhat concerned with the consistencies of the attributes, and properties that entail the strucutre.

By implication, this will hit "true and false," more so than (Te) will. Ti It will scrutinize; rather than transform data; and this is why you see a 'heavy intellectualism,' that tends to be somewhat less aparent in (Te)-preferencers, while both utilize the 'thinking' function.




(Ti)-users follow (D, E) in this order from Example A.
 

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Intuitive functions:
Extroverted intuition: You focus on what could or couldn't be. You're focus on this is on the outside world. This function can be characterized as being Imaginative, as you care about what could or couldn't be, within reality. Extroverted intuitives are thus individuals with strong levels of creativity, capable of seeing what the applications of things could be on very high levels.

Introverted intuition: You focus on what could or couldn't be. You're focus on this is in your inner world. This function can be characterized as being Contemplative, as you care about what could or couldn't be, on a personal level. Introverted intuitives are thus individuals with a large scope, capable of visualizing the bigger picture of things, their lives and those of others.
To prevent from going on (&) on about "intuition," (and it's distinctions): This hand ex; below describes both Ni/Ne sufficiently well.



Let the 'white space' represent data / referents / external / sensory stimuli.


Ni will be (open/close) - extracting existing essences

Ne will be (close/open) - 'creating essences' where there isn't any
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I love the 'bottom-up' approach. Ni likes to look at everything from a 'top-down' perspective, while Si views things from a 'bottom-up' perspective (although I hate the fact that there could be a hidden implication that top might be better than bottom, because that's just not right).

I think a big reason that so many Ni-users run away with the theory is that it tends to be presented in a very abstract and high concept light. Si-users just don't think in those terms. Si-users need to start from the facts and observations and work from there to reach the abstract level (if they would even find the abstract level relevant that is).

Honestly, I think we need 16 explanations for MBTI. Each one presented to be easily accessible for a single MBTI type. We just all have a different way to construct a theory in our brains. If an INTJ has to start from the dry facts he's going to throw the theory out the window, while an ISFJ starting from the high concepts will page through to find the part that's actually relevant to the actual world.

I applaud your efforts to reconstruct the theory to be more accessible to Si-users. Please keep up the good work and try to not be led too much by the Ni-users that don't see the way you're presenting it as relevant. Their brains work different and they can't help themselves.
This perfectly explains my mindset. If Jungian typology isn't perfectly defined in a concrete fashion, I have trouble believing people outside of the community will actually take it seriously. It also hinders any need for research or data collection.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I think it would be useful to go into more depth; to expand deeper on "what thinking is," at minimum, or what exactly "thinking," consistutes: as 'facts, truths, falsities,' et al is simply vague on it's own (with many complex) meanings to which seems cause more confusion than not, ("T-users are more logical"), and I think such fixations via 'logic, truth' et al, in typology are side-effects, rather than functions overall "focus,".


What (both) (Te/Ti) Thinking - are concerned/focused on is not "truths, facts, logic," but rather with :: (D, E, F)


Ex; (A)

(D) Structure: - All internalized (physical - properties / rules / attributes / substances') belonging to (X);

(E) "Things":- All external intimate-objects consisting of (attribtes / properties / substances)

(F) "Objects": - All external events, state-of-affairs, occurrences, et al - "existing," outside the subject/self



(Te) does not care about "truths," nor falsehoods - a (Te) is production/transformation of 'objects/structure/things' - and high-functioning (Te)-usage/users are concerned via transforming error / data / objects [in the same way Se transforms space / movements], and wishes to disturb the atmosphere.

(Te) is not a 'quiet' uncontradictory, inevitable truth; it is a loud fact, & can be contradictory.

Similar to (Se) that is Transforming space - movements - ("external") through pushing through the environment:


(Te) - Transformining the ("external") through production of 'making ends meet': (Te) utilizes facts, not truths or falsehoods, to connect the train set in the environment (this can occur between trains of specimens - or 'managing' the environmental objects) through events, state-of-affairs (ontic / facts) - and 'things' (re: scheduling / "graph-making" / Examples, bullets),". It makes logical judgments on data, information.




Ex; (A1)

Coupled with (Intuition) you will then start to see this 'time-management,' or this sense of urgency to be busy, to be moving persona extroverted through the ENTJ - and some INTJ respectively.


(Te)-users will be utilizing (F, E) in this order from Example A.



[HR][/HR]


(Ti) "cares" about truths / falsehoods - but only to the extent that the 'definition' of truth is lack of contradiction; they 'access' these inconsistent (or rather decipher through systematicies through "analysis,"). Analytic work; indepth scalpel-cutting in loops, by implication of fixation heavy 'structure', one must be somewhat concerned with the consistencies of the attributes, and properties that entail the strucutre.

By implication, this will hit "true and false," more so than (Te) will. Ti It will scrutinize; rather than transform data; and this is why you see a 'heavy intellectualism,' that tends to be somewhat less aparent in (Te)-preferencers, while both utilize the 'thinking' function.




(Ti)-users follow (D, E) in this order from Example A.
So in a nutshell:

Te has a focus to utilize facts, not so much a focus on exploring what's true and false. This is because of a desire to transform their environment.

and

Ti has a focus on getting to the truth of a focused topic. This is because they want to eliminate any inconsistencies within the topic at hand.

I honestly believe that is a better definition of Te and Ti, from mine.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
To prevent from going on (&) on about "intuition," (and it's distinctions): This hand ex; below describes both Ni/Ne sufficiently well.



Let the 'white space' represent data / referents / external / sensory stimuli.


Ni will be (open/close) - extracting existing essences

Ne will be (close/open) - 'creating essences' where there isn't any
So Ni takes open ended information from reality to conceptualizes it to hone in on a unique perspective. (Open/Close)

and

Ne takes what most assume as a closed case, and extracts new possibilities from it. (Close/Open)

This is also a better definition of Ni and Ne. I prefer this definition.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Feeling values are a bit more nuanced than just good and bad though. Agreement and rejection are the basic feeling attitudes one can have, but it is a bit more sophisticated than that; a Fe dominant will have the most varied values and the Fi dominat will have the most nuanced ones. Ethical good can be derived logically too, but it will be very different from reasoning that starts with a feeling value.
Perhaps it will make more sense if a Feeler explains these functions, you know? I sense that since they supposedly use Fe or Fi, that they have a better grasp of defining it correctly.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
That's not the issue. In vernacular speech, the definition of objective is impartiality and subjective, partial. Jung applied the terms in a different manner.

Logic isn't about true or false. If the opening premise is inaccurate or missing data, one can apply logic and still end up with a false conclusion.

Your explanation lacked the Si and Ni components so you oversimplified by leaving out 2/4 components.

Refer to above explanations.
So Jung defined Objective and Subjective to mean something else? ...That's annoying.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the logic part. The structure of a logical argument can be wrong in two ways, depending on whether an individual uses inductive reasoning or deductive reasoning. If it's inductive reasoning, a generalization can be false due to new contradictory information. If it's deductive reasoning, as you said the premise can be weak, resulting in the line of reasoning to be false. However, the aim for logic is to get to the truth of a matter.

I agree with your points on Si and Ni. What is and is not and what could and could not, clearly define extroverted perceiving functions, and not so much introverted perceiving functions. Guess I wouldn't mind another definition on that department.
 

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Perhaps it will make more sense if a Feeler explains these functions, you know? I sense that since they supposedly use Fe or Fi, that they have a better grasp of defining it correctly.
I should think so, yeah, though a lot of people who type themselves as feelers seem to be using pretty definitions similar to yours - which aren't wrong really, but just cover for parts of it.

Also the theoretical understanding is somewhat lacking on this as well; one of the better articles separates feeling into 1) establishing safety, 2) establishing values, 3) organizing the experience, 4) establishing relationships and 5) experiencing ontological unity. I wonder if an approach like this would be useful to clarify the other functions as well, a bit similar to what @Catwalk did with post #13.
 
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