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Discussion Starter #1
i'm curious about how other INFPs would describe their gender identity?
here's a very brief list, all referencing wikipedia...

Cisgender Female - a female with a feminine gender identity

Cisgender Male -
a male with a masculine gender identity

Trigender - a gender identification or feeling that a person is moving between or among gender identities: male, female and a third gender

Genderless/Agender - no gender identity, regardless of physical sex

Genderfluid - moving between traditional genders, sometimes mixing, at whim

Bigender - describes a tendency to move between feminine and masculine gender-typed behavior depending on context

Pangender - people who feel that they cannot be labeled as male or female in gender... they do not fit into binary genders, instead identifying as mixed gender (both male and female) or as a third gendered

Transgender - (MtF = Male-to-Female, FtM = Female-to-Male) people who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves


now, this has been on my mind a lot lately. i have a transwoman best friend who has been transitioning, and her struggle has brought to light that i never really recognized my own genderqueer qualities. unlike being transgendered (especially MtF) i never had an issue being tri-gender fluid. it's not a big deal, socially, for women to dress masculine. i never really had to think about it, or acknowledge it. (and while that sounds like a privilege, and maybe it is, it's steeped in misogyny... but that's a whole other discussion.)

so i'm curious, from an INFP perspective, how would you describe your identity? do you feel pretty comfortable in traditional binary gender roles? do you consider yourself a mixture, or agender? do you ever move between them in different situations, moods, years, or is it consistent?
 

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Cisgender female. Not the girliest of girls, but no other terms describe me any more accurately.

Edit: I'm comfortable enough identifying that way, though I absolutely despise being referred to as a woman. I'd rather be called a female or a girl.
 

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White cisgendered heteronormative male from a poor socioeconomic background. (Try saying that three times fast.)

I think that'll wrap everything up nicely for most people, In all honesty none of that matters to me when interacting with people. Why bother?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
haha well, being cisgendered doesn't mean you're a girly girl or a manly man. it just means you're completely comfortable with what body/role you were born into.
i think any healthy human being has a balance of feminine and masculine traits.
 

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Cisgender female. Not the girliest of girls, but no other terms describe me any more accurately.

Edit: I'm comfortable enough identifying that way, though I absolutely despise being referred to as a woman. I'd rather be called a female or a girl.
really? do you mind if i ask why? (about the woman vs female/girl thing) no worries if you don't feel like explaining.
 

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haha well, being cisgendered doesn't mean you're a girly girl or a manly man. it just means you're completely comfortable with what body/role you were born into.
i think any healthy human being has a balance of feminine and masculine traits.
Yep, true. I'm just rather uncomfortable with using the term 'feminine' to describe myself sometimes. Not sure why exactly, given that I don't mind 'female' itself. Haha, I'm a weird one.

But yes, thanks for remembering to point that out. :)
 

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Yeah, i'm interested in hearing that too. I resent being called a "female." makes me feel like they're looking down on me, like I'm an animal or something.

I'm a cisgendered woman :)
 
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really? do you mind if i ask why? (about the woman vs female/girl thing) no worries if you don't feel like explaining.
No, I don't mind... though sometimes I'm not even completely sure myself. A lot of it is due to the fact that 'woman' makes me think of the word 'womanly' (obviously), which in turn carries a lot of connotations in my mind and reminds me of other words, like 'curvy' or 'voluptuous'... things like that. I've had a pretty severe eating disorder for over 12 years and I'm very uncomfortable in my own skin, to say the least. I don't like the idea of being associated with words that make me feel even more uneasy. 'Female' seems less descriptive of a certain body type than 'woman', and 'girl' has even less of that association. So... yeah. Basically, I'm a bit messed-up. Haha.

I've nothing against the words in general, I just don't like them used to describe myself because it increases my discomfort.

Edit: I also just tend to associate 'woman' with people a lot older than myself, like my mum. Even though I'm 27, I'd feel really odd referring to myself as a woman just because of the age factor.
 

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There are flashes, moments, when I think "that was so pangender" (though I've never heard of the word 'pangender' until I entered this thread, just saying)... Yunno, sometimes things don't have a lot to do with being male or female, or identifying with that role... It's just got something to do with being human, nothing more, nothing less.

Having said that, I'm perceived as more feminine than my male peers - not only have people told me this, but several trait tests through education have told me the same thing. A few weeks ago, I took a test, which told me that 80% of 30.000 users (males and females) entered higher values on masculinity-related questions than I did, 66% entered higher values on femininity-related questions. But it's a self-perception test.

So what does that make me, other than someone who is perceived less masculine than his male peers and perceives himself to be less masculine and feminine than the majority out there... xD
 

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I don't officially identify as anything, but I feel like I'm both "towards the middle of the gender spectrum" and that I "mix" or "move between" traditional genders. I will say that although I'm biologically female, I do not enjoy a lot of what society considers "femininity," and steer way, way clear of it. I have a boyish figure, feel most comfortable dressing like a boy (or gender "neutral"), and honestly, in my own mind, I don't ever imagine myself as "a woman" or "a girl," I like to think of myself as something in between female and male, or something different. I guess "Pangender" describes it best. That's interesting.

I feel incredibly uncomfortable in traditional binary gender roles. I also don't have any close female friends - not something I did consciously, but it's been that way for maybe three years now. And I notice that when I'm in a situation (like work) where I need to interact with "feminine" women, I feel self-conscious and hyper-aware of how "different" I am. That's probably why I don't tend to befriend them, lol. I just... really like being this way. People have said they thought I was a lesbian, I've gotten called names for it, but I don't even think I'm anything more than a "2" on the Kinsey Scale. I'm almost completely disinterested in women. Except when I meet one who acts like a boy. I know sexual identity and gender identity are not the same thing, it's just that the people around me have tended to make judgments on one based on the other.

Anyway, I enjoy a lot of things that are considered traditionally feminine: cooking, art, talking about feelings, etc. I'm very sensitive and can be (agh, way too) passive. I'm certainly not a testosterone-filled badass of a hulking woman. But I like to be gruff, I like to toss being "ladylike" out the window, and I like not worrying where I fall on the gender spectrum. The phrase "being a better man" or "being a better woman" makes me gag. I think it would be much more valuable to worry about being better people, to stop catering to gender differences. Who cares how our biology wants us to act? I like to think we're past that.
 

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I don't fit any of these very well. I identify as a male, but I know I lean towards the feminine side of masculine. Far towards the feminine side. A few of my friends have described me as being almost "girly" (jokingly, of course. Mostly because of my long hair I think. :p)
 

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Cisgender Male. I feel like Mr. Roger's in a big mofo's body. I've always been very physical but gentle & quiet inside. Confuses people at first glance. I'm not alpha, really but I don't feel feminine either.
 
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haha well, being cisgendered doesn't mean you're a girly girl or a manly man. it just means you're completely comfortable with what body/role you were born into.
i think any healthy human being has a balance of feminine and masculine traits.
Actually, that's not exactly accurate. A cisgender person is a person born with male genitalia who presents himself as a man and acts in a masculine fashion (and the inverse for women). You don't necessarily have to be a "man's man" to qualify as a cisgender. I think of it like this: if you made of list of supposedly feminine and masculine traits (though such lists normally end up contradicting themselves) and you check off more than half of the feminine traits and you are a male, you aren't a cisgender. I wouldn't say any of the provided terms apply though. (I am actually curious as to where you found those terms because I have study gender at an extensive rate but I have only seen half of them.) I mean the closest term to label that person is "Genderfluid" that seems to imply a non-stagnant gender identity. I don't believe anyone fits neatly into the false dichotomous genders set up by society and that people can be more or less masculine/feminine on any given day, there is still consistency to most people's gender identity.

For better example of how cisgender applies to people, think of lesbians. There are butch lesbians, lipstick lesbians, and then girls who fall somewhere in between. Butch lesbians, though butch, often identify as girls. There are some butch lesbians who go on to become transgender, but that's beside the point. As a butch lesbian you can whole-heartedly identify as a girl. However, that doesn't make them cisgender for they are taking on a masculine role. Even the girls who fall between butch and lipstick aren't normally considered cisgenders. Only lipstick lesbians are considered cisgenders (for the most part) because they identify as a girl and look like a typical, feminine girl (what some people also refer to as the "straight girl look".

Though, I don't know what I would call a butch lesbian based upon the terms provided for most of the terms seem to involve a fluidity or mixing of the two accepted genders at different intervals. What about a simple mix of the genders? Half-masculine and half-feminine? You consider that a tri-gender, but what about one-quarter masculine and three-quarters feminine? Is that a quad-gender? I think what is messing with my mind here is these "alternative genders" seem to be based off of the gender binary. The best way to approach life is simply accepting gender exists on a spectrum, and that gender is actually a fictitious concept. Sex is real (though intersex is a real possibility), but sex does not equate gender, ever.

Okay. Sorry. I didn't mean to turn this into such a block of here-let-me-inform-you text. I just... I want to answer this question, but I can't given the terms provided. Initially, I thought to myself, "I am cisgender since I have female genitalia and I see myself as a woman. However, I am genderfluid since I was tomboy growing up and those personality traits still float around in me. I am not exactly feminine in other words, though I am definitely not butch or masculine. I would say I am in the middle. So, Tri-gender? But, still. I am a woman, and I can present myself as a woman. This is why Pansgender wouldn't work because I don't feel like neither nor. I just feel like a female with masculine traits that is presented as a woman. It's like a bit of both... but more towards the woman side of things. I am not without a label but I am not a third category. I just am. A set of traits." You see. It's really hard (for me I guess, but I know others find it difficult as well) to work with a dichotomous notion of gender. I think that's why so many people have expressed similar sentiments involving accuracy.

And since I apparently wish to express more than my two cents here... I think of the word female as referring to our biological sex. It's a scientific word, and I think most sociologist take that stance as well. Masculine/feminine refers to our gendered identities, and man/woman refers to how people including ourselves see us (which is an extension of our gendered identities). I mean such that a FtM transgender looks and acts masculine, "he" will be considered a man even though he wasn't born that way. (Though, it is true many people would reverse that notion once finding out about his true nature, however transgender is a messier concept that gender by itself which I view as one large clusterfuck.)

EDIT: I just realized that "Pansgender" seems to define a simple mix of the two accepted genders. I just think fo "pansexuality" when I see that term which is defined as being attracted to any human regardless of their sex, gender, or mixture therein (such as a MtF transgender who is a butch bisexual). Though, I am going to stand by the opinion that gender is poor label to apply to people, in any sense.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Actually, that's not exactly accurate. A cisgender person is a person born with male genitalia who presents himself as a man and acts in a masculine fashion (and the inverse for women). You don't necessarily have to be a "man's man" to qualify as a cisgender. I think of it like this: if you made of list of supposedly feminine and masculine traits (though such lists normally end up contradicting themselves) and you check off more than half of the feminine traits and you are a male, you aren't a cisgender. I wouldn't say any of the provided terms apply though. (I am actually curious as to where you found those terms because I have study gender at an extensive rate but I have only seen half of them.) I mean the closest term to label that person is "Genderfluid" that seems to imply a non-stagnant gender identity. I don't believe anyone fits neatly into the false dichotomous genders set up by society and that people can be more or less masculine/feminine on any given day, there is still consistency to most people's gender identity.

For better example of how cisgender applies to people, think of lesbians. There are butch lesbians, lipstick lesbians, and then girls who fall somewhere in between. Butch lesbians, though butch, often identify as girls. There are some butch lesbians who go on to become transgender, but that's beside the point. As a butch lesbian you can whole-heartedly identify as a girl. However, that doesn't make them cisgender for they are taking on a masculine role. Even the girls who fall between butch and lipstick aren't normally considered cisgenders. Only lipstick lesbians are considered cisgenders (for the most part) because they identify as a girl and look like a typical, feminine girl (what some people also refer to as the "straight girl look".

Though, I don't know what I would call a butch lesbian based upon the terms provided for most of the terms seem to involve a fluidity or mixing of the two accepted genders at different intervals. What about a simple mix of the genders? Half-masculine and half-feminine? You consider that a tri-gender, but what about one-quarter masculine and three-quarters feminine? Is that a quad-gender? I think what is messing with my mind here is these "alternative genders" seem to be based off of the gender binary. The best way to approach life is simply accepting gender exists on a spectrum, and that gender is actually a fictitious concept. Sex is real (though intersex is a real possibility), but sex does not equate gender, ever.

Okay. Sorry. I didn't mean to turn this into such a block of here-let-me-inform-you text. I just... I want to answer this question, but I can't given the terms provided. Initially, I thought to myself, "I am cisgender since I have female genitalia and I see myself as a woman. However, I am genderfluid since I was tomboy growing up and those personality traits still float around in me. I am not exactly feminine in other words, though I am definitely not butch or masculine. I would say I am in the middle. So, Tri-gender? But, still. I am a woman, and I can present myself as a woman. This is why Pansgender wouldn't work because I don't feel like neither nor. I just feel like a female with masculine traits that is presented as a woman. It's like a bit of both... but more towards the woman side of things. I am not without a label but I am not a third category. I just am. A set of traits." You see. It's really hard (for me I guess, but I know others find it difficult as well) to work with a dichotomous notion of gender. I think that's why so many people have expressed similar sentiments involving accuracy.

And since I apparently wish to express more than my two cents here... I think of the word female as referring to our biological sex. It's a scientific word, and I think most sociologist take that stance as well. Masculine/feminine refers to our gendered identities, and man/woman refers to how people including ourselves see us (which is an extension of our gendered identities). I mean such that a FtM transgender looks and acts masculine, "he" will be considered a man even though he wasn't born that way. (Though, it is true many people would reverse that notion once finding out about his true nature, however transgender is a messier concept that gender by itself which I view as one large clusterfuck.)

EDIT: I just realized that "Pansgender" seems to define a simple mix of the two accepted genders. I just think fo "pansexuality" when I see that term which is defined as being attracted to any human regardless of their sex, gender, or mixture therein (such as a MtF transgender who is a butch bisexual). Though, I am going to stand by the opinion that gender is poor label to apply to people, in any sense.
Hmm well i was saying that you don't have to be manly men, etc to qualify as cisgender. it's not necessarily feminine or masculine personality TRAITS that decide it, in my mind, but how you view your body and assigned gender. a cisgender male can be "girlish", a trigender female can be, too. sometimes that's consistent, sometimes not.

these are terms used by trans* people and genderfluids, etc to describe themselves.
and in my opinion, that's usually the most accurate.

i think part of what we're seeing differently is "gender identity". being genderfluid isn't just feeling masculine one day, feminine the next- it's feeling like a MAN one day, and a WOMAN the next. (and sometimes, for tri-genderfluids like me, i feel agender/no gender/third gender.) it goes past whether you're feeling confident, or weepy, or any other gender-related trait/role/stereotype. it's a state of mind. some people may call that cross-dressing, but it goes deeper than that, too. many crossdressers are cisgender, people who are just doing it for kicks or fetish and not for any deeper reasoning like they actually feel like the opposite sex at that time.

However, that doesn't make them cisgender for they are taking on a masculine role.
^ see that's not what cisgender means. it's not just a gender role, it's gender itself. gender roles are individual- it depends on what you glean/reject from society and what you consider yourselves as feminine and masculine. that is the difference between a gender role and a gender identity. gender identity isn't how society teaches you to be or what you were born with, it's how your internal gender feels to you. some genderfluids bind breasts or shave their legs according to how they feel, and it swings back and forth. some even take hormones to deepen/heighten their voice, but it all depends on the person.
The best way to approach life is simply accepting gender exists on a spectrum, and that gender is actually a fictitious concept. Sex is real (though intersex is a real possibility), but sex does not equate gender, ever.
if gender identity doesn't exist, why are trans* people so adamant on having extensive surgeries, taking hormones carefully, even being so desperate that they commit suicide at staggering rates because of overwhelming expenses and lack of social acceptance? it's not a fictitious concept, no, otherwise you're saying their feelings were invalid and in vain. i don't accept that, sorry. not at all.

being a tomboy doesn't make you genderfluid, or tri-gendered, or any of that. your personality isn't really in question, it's your relationship with your hormones, your body, and your identity. perhaps you are agender, and you don't find an issue with presenting as a female. maybe you're cisgendered with androgynous traits. you're the one who feels it, i don't know.

And since I apparently wish to express more than my two cents here... I think of the word female as referring to our biological sex. It's a scientific word, and I think most sociologist take that stance as well. Masculine/feminine refers to our gendered identities, and man/woman refers to how people including ourselves see us (which is an extension of our gendered identities). I mean such that a FtM transgender looks and acts masculine, "he" will be considered a man even though he wasn't born that way. (Though, it is true many people would reverse that notion once finding out about his true nature, however transgender is a messier concept that gender by itself which I view as one large clusterfuck.)
okay, i got problems with this. trangender is not a "messier concept [than] gender by itself" that is "one large clusterfuck".
first of all, being female is not referring to biological, born in sex. being female is feeling like a woman, girl, butch dyke, goddess, whatever flavor of female the individual is. not pretends to be, not decides to be, but is. sometimes a female has a penis. sometimes a female grows one with hormones. it's up to her to know who SHE is, it's natural to her mind, her concept of herself. female is not some science term, like a MtF can't use it. they are females. masculine and feminine are traits in every male, female, and third gender identity.
i really, reeeally don't appreciate the words, "true nature" in that context, either. a FtM's "true nature" is being a man. once people get that through their OWN heads, this whole "clusterfuck" starts to look pretty simple to me.
a FtM doesn't have to all masculine, either. FtMs can be sensitive, quiet dudes who write poetry and love songs. just like cisgendered males can be.

it's not a messy concept. it's called listening. people have their own interpretations of themselves, who they are, and gender matters. it doesn't matter to all, like you, i'm assuming. it's not a poor label when it helps people be comfortable in their own skin, either by external changes to match their minds, or what have you.

you can't tell a MtF that she (notice i didn't put any quotations around that? yeah, that's not okay) should be comfortable having a penis because gender doesn't really exist anyway. i guess you can, but you'll be sorry when you realize she was brave enough to tell you that in the first place after she relapses in suicidal depression and social rejection. this isn't some concept to hem and haw about, this is someone's life. IDENTITY. you are who you are, and gender IS a part of that. it matters to some when they date, why wouldn't it matter to someone's identity?

......
 
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I think distinguishing masculinty and femininty is not clear cut. Maybe I'm Pangender. But if women are soft and men are hard, I guess I'm semi-hard, I mean psychologically.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I think distinguishing masculinty and femininty is not clear cut. Maybe I'm Pangender. But if women are soft and men are hard, I guess I'm semi-hard, I mean psychologically.
masculinity and femininity shouldn't really be stark against each other, not in any healthy person. gender identity isn't about those traits, it's about the actual physical relationship with your body. do you feel like a man? then you're cisgendered. do you not associate any gender with yourself, your mind, despite what body you've got? you're agendered. etc etc. even an agendered person has masculine and feminine traits. there's a difference.
 

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masculinity and femininity shouldn't really be stark against each other.... even an agendered person has masculine and feminine traits. there's a difference.
I feel like a man, but rather a soft one. I'm still a little bit confused what define masculinity and femininity. If gender identitiy is indepedent of traits, what then?
 

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I feel like a man, but rather a soft one. I'm still a little bit confused what define masculinity and femininity. If gender identitiy is indepedent of traits, what then?
it's not about defining masculine or feminine traits in yourself. everyone has a combination of fem/masc in them, no matter their gender identity. gender identity is just that.... what gender you identify as. transgendered people identify as the opposite sex, so they were born in the wrong bodies. cisgendered people are fortunate enough to be born in the right bodies. and genderfluids, trigendered, bigendered, etc have unique mixtures of the genders (male, female, and third/agender) and it changes, sometimes often.

being a tomboyish woman or a feminine man is still cisgender. but for me, a tri-genderfluid, sometimes i feel like a woman, sometimes i feel like i have no gender at all, and usually i feel like a man. i was born as a female, so when i feel like a man, i do feel frustrated with my body. when i feel like a woman, i do not. when i feel agendered, it doesn't matter :p
 
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