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So am I the only female INTP who feels really, really girly? I know a trait of ours is supposed to be gender neutrality. It's not that I am girly because I respect gender roles, but it's just how I feel. Kind of like a gay man feels, I'd presume. And my rationality does get in the way of it sometimes (I don't need to waste money on more shoes; appearances are stupid & don't matter; I'm just a victim of marketing & our materialistic culture), but underneath it's still there (OMG SHOES!!!) ...and if I have to hang out with guys with no girly companionship for a while, I go crazy! However, making friends with girls is a whole other issue...for some reason it's never been easy for me, & lately I find myself making friends with guys much more easily. I also seem to usually connect with guys more on an intellectual level than with girls (no offense, ladies...), although obviously not on this "girly" level. Which is why I'm going crazy. Thoughts?
 

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I'm pretty girly too (sometimes) because I like aesthetics and embraced fashion at a young age. But I was raised that way so I didn't know any better, now it's just habit. I still enjoy making myself look good, but it's not as important to me as it used to be and I feel much more comfortable now than in the past. The only annoyance is that I am painfully self aware and self-conscious and I don't like being treated different or like a helpless female because sometimes I decide to embrace my femininity. Although on some occasions it can be worth it and it's definitely an outlet to express creativity which for me can be very fun.
 

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Are there any INTPs who have a secret desire to indulge in girly things like dresses and stuff...but somehow can't bring themselves to do it? In my room, I put my hair down and embrace the 'pretty' side of me, but I can't show that side to people (including my own family who have gotten used to me being my hobo-looking self at home.)
 

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I'm a geekette. If I'm in the mood or I feel like annoying people, I can "prettify" myself enough to look pretty decent. You're not going to keep me away from my jeans-and-T-shirt standard, though, which seriously annoys my mom.
 

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Well i have been interested in fashion only as of lately, really. i used to have no interest at all but im starting to like it since its kind of a quiet way to tell someone "who you are". (yeah, and im just realizing this as a 15 year old female.. pfft. I always used to wonder what the deal was with my younger esfj sister and clothing)

Id say im "girly" in the sense i like dresses (i think they are more practical, too) and curled hair, and i really dont like the real "boyish girl" look. i have a definite sense of style for myself, but usually i look pretty plain. (jeans/tshirt kinda thing...)

i really know what i want to look like but i feel that it releases too much of "myself" into the public.


as far as personality goes, though, im anything but girly. im really nerdy in that sense


Are there any INTPs who have a secret desire to indulge in girly things like dresses and stuff...but somehow can't bring themselves to do it? In my room, I put my hair down and embrace the 'pretty' side of me, but I can't show that side to people (including my own family who have gotten used to me being my hobo-looking self at home.)
yes! i totally feel the same way... i tend to not even let my family know who i am in terms of fashion/style. i also look like a hobo at home.. hahaha :p i like the way you worded it, i can completely relate.
 

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Maid of Time
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So am I the only female INTP who feels really, really girly?
I'm actually very girly in person, in terms of how people scan me. (i.e., I don't get scanned as butch or andro or masculine, I'm scanned as very female).

I know a trait of ours is supposed to be gender neutrality.
I think it's common -- i.e., center of bell curve -- but there are still those of us on the fringes. The 16 types are in a sense just 16 distinct "pockets" within the full spectrum of humanity, and so if you can imagine, there are trailing edges to each of those "lumps" in the population where the categories mix together.

It's not that I am girly because I respect gender roles, but it's just how I feel. Kind of like a gay man feels, I'd presume.
I guess in the sense that gay men are gay, but still men in their self-concept, without having to think twice about it.

I'm not girly either in order to conform, I just am who I am, and that's how I scan.

And my rationality does get in the way of it sometimes (I don't need to waste money on more shoes; appearances are stupid & don't matter; I'm just a victim of marketing & our materialistic culture), but underneath it's still there (OMG SHOES!!!)
Preaching to the choir... I love shoes. I also love eyeliner, dangly earrings, leggings/hose, purses, and charm bracelets. What can I say?

Then again, I like all sorts of computer games, intellectual discussions, driving fast, blowing things up and/or hurling them long distances; and while I'm annoyed if I break a nail, it's not going to ruin my afternoon, and I don't mind sweat/getting dirty/scratching/bruising myself up if necessary to do something fun. I'm pragmatic in how I approach things. I tend to get more ISTPish in terms of interests as I get out of my head, I guess.

...and if I have to hang out with guys with no girly companionship for a while, I go crazy! However, making friends with girls is a whole other issue...for some reason it's never been easy for me, & lately I find myself making friends with guys much more easily. I also seem to usually connect with guys more on an intellectual level than with girls (no offense, ladies...), although obviously not on this "girly" level. Which is why I'm going crazy. Thoughts?
Well, for me, I just have a hindrance in "making friends" in general, at least to the depth I require to call someone a "friend" rather than just "someone i know who I am positively inclined toward." I mean, a friend is someone I can say, "Hey, I'm hungry, want to walk to the snack bar with me?" and they'll drop everything and walk and we'll talk the whole way. (And it might sound weird, but my friends and I will go the bathroom together and keep talking while we're in there doing our thing, then loiter around the sinks and talk. Sometimes I am laughing at myself silently, while it is all happening, because it's like a bad movie. But why should I conform to one particular image over another? I just should do what I want to do at the time and be myself.) Anyway, what trouble I have in socializing isn't just with women but with men too, but I seem equally able to have close male and female friends... although guys typically don't like to go into some areas (like emotional/relational ones) whereas my female friends do easily. So I typically can engage them on more areas than I can the guys... although with guys usually it's nice to not have to worry about the relational aspects and/or how I'm perceived; it's typically just about whatever the current topic is, and it's usually something fun.

Are there any INTPs who have a secret desire to indulge in girly things like dresses and stuff...but somehow can't bring themselves to do it? In my room, I put my hair down and embrace the 'pretty' side of me, but I can't show that side to people (including my own family who have gotten used to me being my hobo-looking self at home.)
ha ha, that's hilarious!

"Stanley, I caught our daughter in her room tonight. I was shocked. She was spinning around in a dress and had lipstick on. I think we need to take her to a shrink first thing in the morning, before the family shame destroys us."

I'm pretty girly too (sometimes) because I like aesthetics and embraced fashion at a young age.
I have a good aesthetic sense too. I noticed it first with my art abilities, but then realized it translated into putting clothes together, dealing with makeup, etc.

The only annoyance is that I am painfully self aware and self-conscious and I don't like being treated different or like a helpless female because sometimes I decide to embrace my femininity.
Exactly.

(Yes, I'm a girl, and can do everything girls can do, including expressing femininity; but don't you dare expect that I'm less somehow, or that I can't take care of myself, or that I'm not as tough or as competent as guys. Because you would be wrong.)

I sometimes wonder how much femininity we end up suppressing just to avoid being put down or dismissed in some way. I think autonomy and competence is so prioritized by INTPs in general (both men and women) that INTP women likely distance ourselves from commonly accepted definitions of femininity just to properly broadcast we are such.
 

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@purpledog61 Glad someone else can relate too!

"Stanley, I caught our daughter in her room tonight. I was shocked. She was spinning around in a dress and had lipstick on. I think we need to take her to a shrink first thing in the morning, before the family shame destroys us."
The way you put it actually makes me scared of myself. Twirling around in a dress and lipstick...they'd think I was possessed. :crazy:

I've tried to analyze the root of my problem and have come to the conclusion that I'm scared of people thinking about me in that way. And when I say 'that', I mean being associated with sex or hotness. It makes me feel dirty just thinking about it. As for why I feel that way? Further analysis is in order.
Mum reckons I need a shrink. heh
 

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Let's see... the only time I was extremely girly was for prom with hair, makeup, and dress. Even though I didn't like it, people were shocked. They thought I cleaned up good and looked really pretty.

I don't wear make-up. I'm lazy and not a morning person. I have thick hair, and it takes to long to style. So, I throw it up in a pony tail or leave it down. But, sometimes play with different styles in the mirror.

I'm starting to get more girly about clothes, except I will still sometimes wear the comfy boyish outfits...

I'm working on the girly process slowly. Hopefully, there will be a point wear I do wear make-up, dress nice, and style my hair. For now, I'll start with clothes and work my way up. I'm just starting to embrace my feminine side.
 

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Maid of Time
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I have thick hair, and it takes to long to style. So, I throw it up in a pony tail or leave it down.
Hair really can be a pain especially when it's thick. On the weekends, when I'm not going to work, I tend to just pony tail it if it's giving me issues. That tends to be the way of things, to some degree... efficiency overrides other concerns.
 

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I didn't know the definition of femininity was "being into fashion"...

I've known plenty of "girly" NT women. Most are, I'd say; they're usually tougher and less emotionally sensitive, but that doesn't mean they don't have a feminine disposition. For me gender is a "know it when I see it" thing.

I actually really like fashion and aesthetics myself, though my taste at times can border on the whimsical and jokingly anachronistic. I never related to the Paul James profile where it says INTP homes are sparse. Doesn't everyone feel better if they surround themselves with beautiful things?
 

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Well this is an interesting question because my INTP ex is both girly and a Tomboy :/, so i think either or suits them ^^
 

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I like being *girly* but, like others have said, I'm way too lazy to do anything about it. Like I'll freak out in my mind, but actually going through the motions of prettying myself up is just too much. I like it when I'm done! But it's just too much damn work for me :p

At home I wear sweats, tanks, and shorts, and if I go out, jeans and a t-shirt. I rarely wear makeup. Too much of a hassle. I don't identify as "tomboy," though. I'm much girlier in my head than I appear (cuz I'm lazy). But I love love LOVE to freak out over shoes, I'd buy them all if I could, and I like pretty skirts and dresses and makeup and having my hair all down and flowy. And don't even get me STARTED on jewellery. *Especially* not earrings. Oh god, the pairs of earrings I have. I think that's the only way I can "girl out" with my laziness, but I will wear those earrings like there's not tomorrow.

So yes, I am extremely girly, but I'm too lazy to do anything about it so I never look the part :p
 

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I actually really like fashion and aesthetics myself, though my taste at times can border on the whimsical and jokingly anachronistic. I never related to the Paul James profile where it says INTP homes are sparse. Doesn't everyone feel better if they surround themselves with beautiful things?
I also have a very distinct sense of aesthetics, and love to look at nicely designed clothes, stuff and photography.

Despite that, personal style and my home are pretty minimalistic (I am too lazy to be anything else), but I make sure that I am surrounded by things that fullfill my requirements for quality and beauty.

And I love shoes. But I hardly own any particularly "girly" shoes, I just bought my fourth pair of sneakers.

I feel like I am not gender neutral, but trapped in between. I am not a tomboy, but I am not a girly girl either.
 

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Maid of Time
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I never related to the Paul James profile where it says INTP homes are sparse. Doesn't everyone feel better if they surround themselves with beautiful things?
I think it's more a "minimalist" thing he was trying to capture.

I typically have issues being too cluttered, because I'm so P. My typical pattern is to surround myself with things that trigger new ideas or that resonate within me in some way. It's also part of my upbringing; both of my parents are clutter-aholics, they can't seem to throw anything away. (I remember throwing out souvenirs as a teen that people gave me when I was little, because I just had no need for them; and my mother would freak and dig them back out of the trash.) Eventually I've developed the ability to draw a boundary of how much stuff I can fit into one area, and I force myself to toss things past the limit.

So it was really interesting for me to observe my INTP son. He's sixteen, but has not nearly the clutter issues I have. In fact, compared to his ESFP and INFJ siblings, he's the most minimalist. He just doesn't like to overcomplicate his environment, and he's normally focused internally anyway. He doesn't seem to have the same need right now either to create resonance with external things, he's more imposing his mind structure on the environment.
 

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You don't have to feel ashamed that you have some interests that happen to conform to your traditional gender role, any more than you should be ashamed for not conforming to it.

I mean, I enjoy watching sporting events (not so much playing them, though) and even talking about last night's game sometimes, but that doesn't stop me from being INTP.
 

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I feel like I am not gender neutral, but trapped in between. I am not a tomboy, but I am not a girly girl either.
Like most girls, probably. I think "girly girl" is just as much an extreme as a very noticeable tomboy.

Despite that, personal style and my home are pretty minimalistic (I am too lazy to be anything else), but I make sure that I am surrounded by things that fullfill my requirements for quality and beauty.
I think it's more a "minimalist" thing he was trying to capture.
I think you're right, but if there was a choice between minimalism and beauty I'd take the latter, just because I feel uncreative and depressed in a non-stimulating environment. My high school had all-white walls with minimal decoration...when you added in the uniforms it was almost unbearable.

I typically have issues being too cluttered, because I'm so P. My typical pattern is to surround myself with things that trigger new ideas or that resonate within me in some way.
Yeah, for me it's similar in part, since I often become uncreative without external stimulus. But I also am an identity creator. Not just in how I act or which personality I want to project, but because I'm one of those people who sees himself reflected in his possessions, and the decor in my home and clothes I wear are huge parts of that (though perhaps as an INTP, the books on my shelf are even more important :wink:). I go for sort of a bohemian aristocrat look, a kind of a dark, moody beauty strongly evoking mysticality and historical lineage (real or imagined). With rather idiosyncratic and culturally diverse embellishments (as long as it blends well). I also have a huge appreciation for geometric symmetry and elegance where it's applicable (needless to say I am a big fan of Islamic architecture). My fashion is either lazy but clean, decadent or an outright joke; I took to carrying around a cane for a while. I know it might be cliche but I love pea coats (and while I don't eat much meat, I could never be a vegan as I do love my Florentine leather coat...had to fall to begging my friends for food for the rest of the trip since it cost so much but they knew I hemorrhage money and would find a way to pay them back). I'd even smoke a pipe if it wasn't bad for you (a friend of mine tried to introduce me to it, but then I thought...do I really want to get cancer just for this? lol) I remind myself of a cross between J.R.R. Tolkien and Evelyn Waugh (except much less talented :wink:). Love fedoras and even tweed jackets when I'm feeling informal. I know it's pretentious, but I have a lot of fun.

Heh, well after that digression...

It's also part of my upbringing; both of my parents are clutter-aholics, they can't seem to throw anything away. (I remember throwing out souvenirs as a teen that people gave me when I was little, because I just had no need for them; and my mother would freak and dig them back out of the trash.)
Heh, interesting. Because I always found it very hard to throw things out form my past. I'm much better at doing it now because of a changed philosophy/worldview as well as life toughening you up, but I was much more sentimental as a boy and formed nostalgic attachments with just about anything (which I assumed had something to do with the Si puer aeternus).

My ISTJ Dad, on the other hand, was ruthless when it came tho throwing things out. My only motivation to clean was because I didn't want him to toss out some cherished old thing from my childhood. Everyone else was messy, but he was an authoritative parent and insisted we keep up with things.

Eventually I've developed the ability to draw a boundary of how much stuff I can fit into one area, and I force myself to toss things past the limit.

So it was really interesting for me to observe my INTP son. He's sixteen, but has not nearly the clutter issues I have. In fact, compared to his ESFP and INFJ siblings, he's the most minimalist. He just doesn't like to overcomplicate his environment, and he's normally focused internally anyway. He doesn't seem to have the same need right now either to create resonance with external things, he's more imposing his mind structure on the environment.
Interesting...and a good sign for an INTP who is still so young I suppose (I still suck at it, lol). Does he not have a lot of possessions, or does he just not take them out a lot?
 

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Like most girls, probably. I think "girly girl" is just as much an extreme as a very noticeable tomboy.
I think so too. Girly-girl, if taken literally, to me seems to be some sort of hyperfemininity that seems unnatural and taking effort to maintain. It would also be restrictive just like tomboyishness can be restrictive (just in other ways).

I think you're right, but if there was a choice between minimalism and beauty I'd take the latter, just because I feel uncreative and depressed in a non-stimulating environment. My high school had all-white walls with minimal decoration...when you added in the uniforms it was almost unbearable.
Uniforms. Uggh, that would leave me ill.

I would rather have beauty as well, if I had the choice. I'm not a utilitarian INTP, I'm a strong 5w4 sx and so truth = beauty and beauty = truth, they resonate similarly with me. I tend to be a receiver, so that's why surrounding myself with a plethora of things helps to stimulate me and give me things to respond to; barrenness seems to impose itself on my mind, leaving it barren in turn. I think it was easier just to abstract everything when I was younger and live in my head, but once I was forced to engage the external world, I think I lost a bit of that ability to just sit and cogitate for long periods of time. I'd like to actually get back to being more self-generating.

I also am an identity creator. Not just in how I act or which personality I want to project, but because I'm one of those people who sees himself reflected in his possessions, and the decor in my home and clothes I wear are huge parts of that (though perhaps as an INTP, the books on my shelf are even more important :wink:).
Books are actually one of the first things I look at when I visit someone's home for the first time.... not just what they are, but how accessible they are, and even if they have any books at all. I get a very good idea how someone thinks and what they think about, just by scanning their bookcases.

In any case, yes -- clothes express me, they're personal identifiers. I hate wearing clothes for traditional purposes or looking like everyone else, I feel a need to mark who I am by how I dress.

I would say more, but I'm venturing more and more off-topic...


I'm much better at doing it now because of a changed philosophy/worldview as well as life toughening you up, but I was much more sentimental as a boy and formed nostalgic attachments with just about anything (which I assumed had something to do with the Si puer aeternus).
I did too. I've noticed I not only form those attachments to objects, but to people... even people I might not necessarily like much of the time. For some crazy, familiarity results in some level of attachment for me. So it was like cutting off my left hand to begin discarding things I had once saved. I think what I realized, though, is that the connection did not reside in the object but within me... and as long as i had myself, even if the object was lost, I had not truly lost anything.

Interesting...and a good sign for an INTP who is still so young I suppose (I still suck at it, lol). Does he not have a lot of possessions, or does he just not take them out a lot?
He basically only ever spends money on books and tech, if anything, but typically doesn't even seem to care much for money or possessions.
 

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Ya, I'm not sure 'caring about your appearance' means that you're girly. In fact, I'm into fashion as well, and I probably shop more than any girl I know. I think whether or not you care about your appearance mostly has to do with your environment and the crowd you're with. Suppose you live in Georgia (which I did for college), you can really let yourself go, and nobody would care. In fact, if you do dress well, you stick out like a nail. I'm now in NY, and everywhere I go, I see shops, I see beautiful and fashionable people. Thus, I'm more compelled to dress well when I go out.

Btw, to me, girly stuff would be snuggling, candlelight dinner, a walk in the park at night, etc. (I love all those stuff too! Yay!)
 
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