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I am encountering an interesting paradox. Excuse the symbolism and hidden meaning in this post as I haven't been here long enough to know what is acceptable and what moderators will remove.

For some background, within a sexual relationship I could honestly care less when I'm receiving and I am usually way more excited when I'm giving. First, do other ENFP's here on this forum feel the same?

Normally this works out quite well as I tend to date others that gets pleasure from being given to. However, I have recently entered the paradox where I am in a dating relationship where my partner feels the same way I do (and believe she is INFP). I find our four play reenacts a rope-a-dope fight from a Rocky movie (except replace punches with…).

Now the paradox - if you normally get pleasure from your partner's pleasure, and knowing that 'giving' for the other person is giving them pleasure than shouldn't their giving be the same as me giving? I'm finding old habits die hard. Curious to know your thoughts.
 

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Yeah, I approach sex from a givers perspective. I think it's a preset/acceptance for being a guy. If the guy (and this isn't always true) will naturally get there first, it makes sense to direct my first concern to making sure she comes along for the ride, know what I mean?

There is the concern too that sex is an emotional ride also. The foreplay, or maybe the play, is predestined from some earlier interaction when you still had your clothes on and were doing something unrelated, together. The experience of the sex seems to be related to the emotional experience of the relationship. There are of course exceptions... a quicky here or there where thinking about the ins and outs of why and how just don't matter. (Is this subject supposed to be about double entendre? :crazy:)

ah yeah and then there is the consideration - that's the word I was looking for, not "concern" - that your ability to recieve is somewhat an indicator of your own, umm, mental state? Emotional health? What I mean is, the inability to recieve can be a symptom of something not at all to do with sex. At least that's the way it is with me. Receiveing is great, giving is great. Sex is a constant learning curve for me. Things climb upwards, enter plateux, sometimes it's just not working the way I'd like despite my best intentions. But the you have to admit, it's not like doing the dishes. Practice isn't a chore.

There are always new ways to learn to receive too. A remember one time I'm still trying to recreate. :wink: it was an early morning piece, I had just woken up in a shit of a mood and wasn't interested at all but she was and she wasn't messing around neither and my detachment from the whole thing (since my stance is of giving first, regardless) built into some utter fucking mindblowing ... well you get the picture. :blushed: The point is that the mood and intent that immediately begins it doesn't always define the experience.

I don't view sex as ever bad. I've heard people comment about "bad sex" or dissapointing sex. To my mind it's just sex. The start or middle of a journey. If it feels disappointing or a struggle now, you can be sure that as long as you both are interested in the relationship, it will go wherever you like, eventually.
 
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I agree. There is no such thing as "bad sex". I don't think there can be when an ENFP is involved. :tongue:

Learning to receive is very important for you and your partner. When you receive you relinquish control and allow your partner to pleasure you. There is beauty when partners are open to both giving and receiving.

Look at it this way- you wouldn't turn a gift away that a lover was giving you, would you? That would be very hurtful to them. It's wonderful knowing you can make your partner happy. I had one partner that wasn't into me going down on him. I hated it. I felt like there was a part of me that was shut off from expressing my love for him. I needed to give. I eventually ended the relationship. Problems in the bedroom are usually microcosms for the entire relationship.

Use your empathy button. You know how you get turned on when you pleasure your partner? Imagine the pleasure they are having pleasuring you.

Also, just relax and enjoy. Breathe deeply, just let go and surrender yourself to your partner. It's can build so much sexual confidence in your partner if you let them give to you. You are becoming very sexually mature if you are at this point. It's wonderful that you love to give, but you can't remain lopsided forever. Both people should be raw and vulnerable together. That includes giving and allowing yourself to receive.
 

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It is most interesting to hear you guys talk about this. I too am a "giver" or pleaser. This has always been the most important aspect of sex for me - by far. So much that I dare admit I am one of those fellows that has a difficult time "receiving". I cannot seem to shut down my mind and stop worrying about my partner. Simply letting go and focusing on my own sensations is often akin to climbing Everest in my birthday suit ! Quite the challenge as you can imagine. Not to mention it tends to rob one of a great deal of pleasure.

I am so focused on "pleasing" that I will not even initiate sex unless I absolutely know I am wanted. The good news is, this rarely leads to a problem as I have never been accused of pushing for sex. The other upshot; my apparent abundance of self-control and lack of neediness seem to work like an aphrodisiac once I am in a relationship. I tend to get wanted a lot. But don`t worry, 15 years of marriage has changed all that:wink: Now I am entering the priesthood.

Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you view it) I have generally attracted partners that seem to prefer things this way and have little interest in really exploring me and what makes me tick. But frankly, I have reached a point in my life where I want it to change...I need it to change.

However, I think it would take an extremely intuitive and sensitive woman to make that a reality for a guy like me. And though I am/was certainly experienced, I can honestly say that I have never shared intimacy with a woman I would call intuitive or particularly sensitive. Kind yes, sexy yes, but intuitively sensitive - nope. My bad.

The sad fact is, I`d probably make a great male hooker if not for that little stumbling block of an emotional connection. On the other hand, perhaps after I got that first cheque...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you all for your wonderful replies! This is an area where I needed to work on all my life and have recently read that all Type 9 ENFP's are truly selfless individuals and have a hard time focusing on personal needs vs the needs of others. Putting my needs before others is really difficult! However Pink you nailed it right on, where if you see empathize others needs to give similar to my own, this makes it easier to go to the next step.

Thank you all again, you are such phenomenal people.
 

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It is most interesting to hear you guys talk about this. I too am a "giver" or pleaser. This has always been the most important aspect of sex for me - by far. So much that I dare admit I am one of those fellows that has a difficult time "receiving". I cannot seem to shut down my mind and stop worrying about my partner. Simply letting go and focusing on my own sensations is often akin to climbing Everest in my birthday suit ! Quite the challenge as you can imagine. Not to mention it tends to rob one of a great deal of pleasure.
How would you feel if your partner never allowed you to give? Often when people don't allow another to give, it's a control issue. The person giving is in control.

I am so focused on "pleasing" that I will not even initiate sex unless I absolutely know I am wanted. The good news is, this rarely leads to a problem as I have never been accused of pushing for sex.
This was the hardest part for me being with an ENFP male. It really irritated me to no end. I get very resentful over his "appropriateness" and lack of initiating.
The other upshot; my apparent abundance of self-control and lack of neediness seem to work like an aphrodisiac once I am in a relationship. I tend to get wanted a lot.
Are you aware that your partner needs to be "wanted" as well? That is why you SHOULD initiate it often. There is validation in that one act alone.
But don`t worry, 15 years of marriage has changed all that:wink: Now I am entering the priesthood.
Wow. Sorry to hear that. Seems like you need a jump start. We are so creative as ENFPs I hope you will open up and explore and initiate. Do something crazy.

Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on how you view it) I have generally attracted partners that seem to prefer things this way and have little interest in really exploring me and what makes me tick. But frankly, I have reached a point in my life where I want it to change...I need it to change.
Wow. That just made me cry. I'm so sorry. But I'm sure you'll make it happen. You have to. We are so creative in the bedroom and in the relationship.

Sex is very important to me. It's so much fun. I like thinking of it as an "adult playground". The two of us together figuring out what gives each other pleasure, and then just going for it. Heaven.

I really think intimacy most has to do with vulnerability. Once two people can be vulnerable with each other, there is no limit to what the two of you can do.
 
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Hey Pink, I cross-posted with you and I would like to respond. (love the poster by the way - sexy AND meaningful = perfect!)

I think you are absolutely correct in your assertions regarding sexual maturity and such. I also agree fully regarding the sexual beauty to which you point to in a well-balanced give/receive relationship. But I am not so sure about the bit on relinquishing control. At least not for me.

For example, I can relinquish control readily. I have no fear of not being in control. Especially in the bedroom - none whatsoever. However, when it comes to letting go of my own thoughts, well, the off-switch for that is a real bitch. As such, I am difficult to captivate. But only once I myself become the focus of attention. Perhaps I am not alone amongst ENFP males in this regard? I really don`t know. But I have come here to find that out, amongst other things.

Compounding this is the fact that I have always been the kind of guy that people seem to assume needs nothing emotionally. People assume I can, and will, provide everything for myself ...and for them as well. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, nobody seems to believe it. Even though I tell them otherwise, they just don`t believe it. You can see it on their faces.

Friends, family and lovers have all recognized me as someone with emotional depth. They know it; they can see that part. I am someone who emotes publicly and with great confidence (I was once a successful singer/songwriter - I can certainly pour it all out, that`s for sure). Regardless, I am still treated like a total alpha male who apparently needs nothing. I am perceived only as a "giver". Consequently, I have attracted women who do not operate on a level that can truly get to me sexually...assuming such a women even exists.

My partners have never been able to really capture my focus and imagination. They seem to be missing the nuance and sincerity for pleasing me that would truly set me on fire. I have long since resigned myself to the fact that the problem must lie with me; that somehow I am just incomplete in this way, or just plain`ol broken. I can accept that fact. But I am not quite ready to throw in the towel yet.

Don`t get me wrong, I am not crying the blues here. Even though I think it sounds like it (I do apologise for that). I have had an incredible life, and have nothing to whine about. But I sure as hell would like to know if I am the only one like this.

...just another person searching for answers.
 

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But I am not so sure about the bit on relinquishing control. At least not for me.
Sorry. I don't think you or ENFP men are like that. I hadn't experienced it, nor did I pick up anywhere in your thread that this is what you do. I just needed to make that disclaimer though.

Just know that my Ne makes me constantly aware that "others" read this. So I just used your post as a guinea pig to express that idea really quickly.


However now that I think about it, whether you mean it as a control issue or not, the other person might receive it that way. But it doesn't sound like you are pushing her off of you when she wants to give.

I had an ex (not ENFP) who wanted to always play martyr. He gave a lot in bed, he gave me a lot of gifts outside of the bedroom. But he hated receiving anything from me. He often sabotaged my attempts at getting him gifts for his birthday. He wanted to hold his position of being the giver so that I'd always feel indebted to him. It was very uncomfortable and very dis-empowering. Both people want to feel like they are bringing something to the relationship. For him it was a control issue.
 
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Hey Pink, I cross-posted you AGAIN !

Thank you for your reply directly to me. My prior response is only to your first post in this thread.

Regarding your 2nd post, there is plenty in there for me to think about. And I certainly will think about it.

Perhaps you are right about me. Perhaps not. But it sure feels like we are living in different worlds. Don`t feel bad though, this is a feeling I have carried with me always and it extends to everyone I am afraid. There are many reasons for this. Some of which may come out in my communications here, some probably not. I don`t know for certain. But if I had to describe it in a nutshell, I would say that I have always been struck by the profound sense that I am just a visitor here in this life (if that makes any sense). My sense of belonging, when it does occur, is always fleeting at best and leaves me longing for more. This extends to my intimate relationships as well. My overwhelming sense of being separate, distinct and isolated never fully leaves me. And though I have often felt loved, and feel a great deal of profound love for many, I have never felt reached...never felt fully connected.

My experiences in life have been extraordinary by anyones measure. A few have been absolutely mind-blowing and impossible to share over a medium like this without discrediting myself as a complete lunatic. But they have also served to place me apart, in some way, from all of those around me. Perhaps this is just...a price.

I have come to this forum, in part, to see what I might share in common with other ENFPs. So let me apologise in advance for highjacking this post and indulging myself in my own keystrokes. And let me thank you again for your thoughtfulness.
 

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Third cross-post Pink, Sorry!

No, I would never "push" a woman off of me who wants to "give". Not at all. Not figuratively or literally. But the issues are deeper than that I would say.

In addition I have no desire to control or have anyone indebted to me EVER. Especially in an emotional way.

...just so ya know.


And, no worries re: the disclaimer. I totally get that.

By the way, I am not THAT old ! Geez. Not physically anyway. Thanks for the kind welcome.
 

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I agree. There is no such thing as "bad sex". I don't think there can be when an ENFP is involved. :tongue:
I definately like to "give". I'll preface this by saying in my two fairly short relationships I never went "all the way" though I was very creative with the time and space I had. I think this would be shared amongst many ENFPs, I'd go as far to suggest that the confidant ENFP much resembles an SP "playmate" type when it comes to the physical relationship.

Though, to be honest, the kinkiest people I know when it comes to sex is (horrifyingly) my sister (ESFJ) her humble quiet ISTJ husband, and my ESFJ mom!! Crazy SJs, they're the naughty librarians of the MBTI sexual world I swears.
 

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No, no, no. I've been with ESFJ. I was starved. I'm sure there are some exceptions though. And ew.....my mom is ESFJ too. I don't want to think about it. She's like a nun to me.
 
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I had an ex (not ENFP) who wanted to always play martyr. He gave a lot in bed, he gave me a lot of gifts outside of the bedroom. But he hated receiving anything from me. He often sabotaged my attempts at getting him gifts for his birthday. He wanted to hold his position of being the giver so that I'd always feel indebted to him. It was very uncomfortable and very dis-empowering. Both people want to feel like they are bringing something to the relationship. For him it was a control issue.
This. A lot. It's not as bad in my situation--no sabotaging of gift-giving, for instance--but there's always, always a sense that there's an expectation of obligation to him. And these expectations, these obligations, they're never detailed, either--so there's a lot of passive-aggressive BS that ends up on me before I snap and call things to the carpet. I wonder if the reticence about what's expected is also a form of control, conscious or no.

But I'm not psychic, and I resent having rules changed on me at a whim, and I resent feeling like I'm not living up to expectations that aren't even reasonable, let alone explained to me.

I myself like to give. I get off on seeing my partner flush with pleasure, so in that sense it's a win-win. I do have a hard time receiving, though, because I've been in enough romantic and non-romantic relationships with people who did manufacture those emotional tethers of obligation, and I didn't want to get hooked in. So I demurred and continued to give. And then my giving eventually was abused itself. For this reason, I have a hard time trusting partners, and because of this "non-disclosure of expectations" and "sudden random rules-changes," I can't trust the partner I'm with. I've been burned too many times. He's supposed to be my safe harbor, but when I treat him that way, I get kicked when I'm down.

I have a very hard time standing up for me. I don't want to be the asshole (which is how those manipulative people made me feel when I did stand up for myself), but I get so sick and resentful of being taken advantage of, and not being dealt with honestly, fairly, and openly, that I become a cesspool of aimless anger and ill-will. Needless to say, I hate being in that state.

Conversation with him has made some progress in sorting these things out, but because I've been burned consistently in the recent past, I cannot being myself to trust that the positive changes he's made will actually stick. I hate being in this state, too.

But in an ideal situation, with someone I can completely trust, that give-give dynamic is astonishing and singular and something that defies words for me to define. It takes so much for me to feel like I can just receive, and know there are no strings attached, and know that the gifts (of any kind) are being genuinely given. But when it does happen, it's magnificent.
 
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Last person I dated was also a giver. We decided to take turns on what we wanted.
 
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This. A lot. It's not as bad in my situation--no sabotaging of gift-giving, for instance--but there's always, always a sense that there's an expectation of obligation to him. And these expectations, these obligations, they're never detailed, either--so there's a lot of passive-aggressive BS that ends up on me before I snap and call things to the carpet. I wonder if the reticence about what's expected is also a form of control, conscious or no.

But I'm not psychic, and I resent having rules changed on me at a whim, and I resent feeling like I'm not living up to expectations that aren't even reasonable, let alone explained to me.

I myself like to give. I get off on seeing my partner flush with pleasure, so in that sense it's a win-win. I do have a hard time receiving, though, because I've been in enough romantic and non-romantic relationships with people who did manufacture those emotional tethers of obligation, and I didn't want to get hooked in. So I demurred and continued to give. And then my giving eventually was abused itself. For this reason, I have a hard time trusting partners, and because of this "non-disclosure of expectations" and "sudden random rules-changes," I can't trust the partner I'm with. I've been burned too many times. He's supposed to be my safe harbor, but when I treat him that way, I get kicked when I'm down.

I have a very hard time standing up for me. I don't want to be the asshole (which is how those manipulative people made me feel when I did stand up for myself), but I get so sick and resentful of being taken advantage of, and not being dealt with honestly, fairly, and openly, that I become a cesspool of aimless anger and ill-will. Needless to say, I hate being in that state.

Conversation with him has made some progress in sorting these things out, but because I've been burned consistently in the recent past, I cannot being myself to trust that the positive changes he's made will actually stick. I hate being in this state, too.

But in an ideal situation, with someone I can completely trust, that give-give dynamic is astonishing and singular and something that defies words for me to define. It takes so much for me to feel like I can just receive, and know there are no strings attached, and know that the gifts (of any kind) are being genuinely given. But when it does happen, it's magnificent.
I think I understand what you are saying. I'm sorry about the people who have been controlling or less than genuine.

As a rape survivor, I had to work very hard in therapy to learn how to "surrender" to someone again. I had to learn to appreciate the physical sensations of sex and what I was getting out of it. I had to read books like "For Yourself" and do all the exercises in there so I could get acquainted with my body and what it likes.

My suggestion is for you to focus more on what pleasure you are receiving, rather than be worried about the other person's motivation for it. Don't focus on whether or not the other person is enjoying. Instead, simply enjoy it. Be in the moment of getting off. You are not just giving yourself away to someone else when they are pleasuring you. You are giving to yourself when you allow yourself to be pleasured. You deserve to get off in bed. Sex will never be boring or a power struggle once you realize how much fun you are having and how good it feels.

Yep, I hate it when controlling or bad people rob us of a good time in bed. But as ENFPs, we have mega endurance and an iron will for being healthy. It just takes us a little work on our end to be able to get back onto the healthy track. And being on a sexually healthy path has so many benefits. Yes ma'am.:wink:
 
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...I had to work very hard in therapy to learn how to "surrender" to someone again. I had to learn to appreciate the physical sensations of sex and what I was getting out of it. I had to read books like "For Yourself" and do all the exercises in there so I could get acquainted with my body and what it likes.

My suggestion is for you to focus more on what pleasure you are receiving, rather than be worried about the other person's motivation for it. Don't focus on whether or not the other person is enjoying. Instead, simply enjoy it. Be in the moment of getting off. You are not just giving yourself away to someone else when they are pleasuring you. You are giving to yourself when you allow yourself to be pleasured. You deserve to get off in bed
I like these words of yours very much. It sounds like you know very well that this is far easier said than done. My questions for you Pink; are the books like "For Yourself" strictly written for rape survivors and women? Are there other titles you might suggest along these lines perhaps dealing more with emotional trauma as it pertains to sex in general?
 

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I like these words of yours very much. It sounds like you know very well that this is far easier said than done. My questions for you Pink; are the books like "For Yourself" strictly written for rape survivors and women? Are there other titles you might suggest along these lines perhaps dealing more with emotional trauma as it pertains to sex in general?
No. These books are not for rape survivors at all. They were written for everyone so that people could have a healthy relationship to their bodies and with sex. I believe the work in these books made healthier than a lot of people who haven't even survived trauma.

One book is "For Yourself", the other book is "For Each Other". They are by Lonnie Barbach. The first one is female based but it is just as good for men to read.
 
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