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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I realize I'm bitchin' a lot lately, SORRY. But today I was thinking about some things... when it comes to relationships or projects, i feel like I put my ALL into it.... Once I commit, I'm loyal to carrying through and I'd never treat it half-heartedly... And i think this is characteristic of INFJs. We're all in. (we can also be all OUT - infj doorslam). The main point is that we are whole-heartedly dedicated or completely the opposite.

Today i also realized that most people I run into aren't like this... We can be working on something together, for a work or school project, but instead of treating it as a priority, it is something they are committed to half-heartedly and not really loyal to. I just think people should be more loyal and whole-heartedly committed to a certain degree.

So how do you guys deal with this in life? i'm sure we've all had our fair share of meeting flaky people...half-heartedly committed people....people with ulterior motives (insisting on having one foot in and one foot out).... etc... i feel like i need to set my foot down, but i have an internal struggle with this, and i feel like i need to accept people's commitment levels, even though it clashes with my own values? ....i know how i feel about it, but how do you guys deal with things like this?
 

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I'm trying to figure this all out myself.

One thing is, to remind myself that I can't make others feel/ act/ react the way that I do and that putting my whole 'self' into relationships is unhealthy and it's going to hurt when I step back into reality.

Sometimes it's distinguishing whether you're putting 'everything' into it, or whether the other person is just plain lazy.

Don't settle for less but also, don't think too unrealistically.
 

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honestly... I appreciate your work ethic, but I seriously jump ship as often as I can... especially if the crew sucks and they don't know how to have a good time.

If I can't connect with people, I bail.

there are happier ships in the sea.

also we might be talking about different things. if so, ignore my random ramblings.
 

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Hi curious,

I've seen your posts of late, & I can see you grasping at straws trying to make sense of something. I'm only faring a little better than that, so no worries on the "bitchin'" as I'm sure many of us can identify with those waves of struggle that tend to wash over us as we try to make sense of it all.

As far as committent levels from others, e-gad (yeah, I said it). It hurts, it sucks, I rant (at least in my head) - but I quit making expectations of others on it - because you can't *make* them more committed to it. Maybe try to inspire, or even show that it's important to you - but if they aren't committed...they just aren't. When I'm not interested or invested, there just isn't anything in the world that's going to make me care.

Oh my gosh, I'm so tired, I've been reading & posting all day. That's me. I'm all out of go go juice. I'll probably not post for awhile. Argh...(oh wait...talk like a pirate day was last weekend, wasn't it?)

Anyways, I'm all squeezed out of posting - and god knows how useful what I posted was - I can't even tell if it makes any sense at this point - but I AM rooting for you! I hope you perk up before long.
 
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I realize I'm bitchin' a lot lately, SORRY. But today I was thinking about some things... when it comes to relationships or projects, i feel like I put my ALL into it.... Once I commit, I'm loyal to carrying through and I'd never treat it half-heartedly... And i think this is characteristic of INFJs. We're all in.

Today i also realized that most people I run into aren't like this... We can be working on something together, whether it's a mutual relationship or project, but instead of treating it as a priority, they treat it as an option.... something they are committed to half-heartedly and not really loyal to... They''d be the first one jumping off the ship if they thought maybe things weren't working out or if they spot a better ship.... But I feel that most INFJs have more of the mentality of: "The captain is the last to leave the ship." I don't think a captain should have to go down with the ship, though it is very heroic to think about..... I just think people should be more loyal and committed to a certain degree, where they arent so quick to abandon or ditch their commitments.

So how do you guys deal with this in life? i'm sure we've all had our fair share of meeting flaky people...half-heartedly committed people....people with ulterior motives (not even meeting the bare minimum, but retaining their invovelement because it benefits them).... etc... i feel like i want to call people out on it and set my foot down, but i have an internal struggle with this, and i feel like i need to accept people's commitment levels, even though it clashes with my own values? ....how do you guys deal with things like this?
Sorry curious, I accidentally pressed the "edit" button instead of "quote", so don't worry I didn't edit anything you wrote!

I can relate to a degree, because while I can be flaky in some aspects (I totally jump the ship like mr coyote up there), if I say I'm committed to something, by god I will latch on and not give it up for pretty much anything. As a perfectionist I tend to put a lot of effort into things as well, and if I actually give a damn about it, anything substandard or rushed, I just hate to leave it as is. I'm definately a quality over quantity person (unless it's dinner, in which case i'm too tired to care).

I suppose you have to go out of your way to be around people with high standards. You might clash a lot, but I tend to find a little respite in other perfectionists. Also, people who keep their word. They come in all shapes and sizes are quite rare, and sometimes the last person you'd expect.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I suck at inspiring. I feel that I am too dry in communicating my ideals and passions. they are what drive the project obviously, but i'm bad at expressing it outwardly. I need an ENFP. I can imagine a super-team made up of an ENFP, INFJ, ExTJ, and ISTJ. It would be the perfect team. in my dreams. I work well with all of these types the best and i seriously feel like this would be a really good balance. just enough agreement to progress and get started, but also just the right amount of disagreement to improve and optimize. for me, at least.

I jump ships as well, sorry if i came off like that. I was referring to people that have committed to something but are half-hearted and don't follow their responsibilities/commitments. this sums it up: " if I say I'm committed to something, by god I will latch on and not give it up for pretty much anything." realistically, there comes a time where we need to jump ship for good reasons, but it's when people STAY in the ship (position in the project), but don't DO anything they originally committed to.

I guess what i am seeing a lot lately is ambitious people who have ulterior motives. they want the position but they dont want to do the work. they want the good stuff but theyre not committed enough to follow through and take responsibilities. So :frustrating::frustrating::frustrating:
 

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I always enjoy a good poker metaphor! I can relate to the all-in idea. As you said, this is something characteristic of INFJ's. I have an idea in my head for a book that's been with me for at least a year now and I haven't given up on it yet. I haven't even done any real work on it yet since I'm still studying about it. I don't expect to be done for another year at least. I only bring this up as an example of the all-in. No amount of time or effort is wasted if the end result is worth it.
 

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I guess what i am seeing a lot lately is ambitious people who have ulterior motives. they want the position but they dont want to do the work. they want the good stuff but theyre not committed enough to follow through and take responsibilities. So :frustrating::frustrating::frustrating:
I see nothing wrong with jumping ship if you avoid selfishly hurting others in the process. You are responsible for keeping yourself happy. If you aren't happy, you will project negative emotions onto others, you won't have the strength or resources to help anyone, you won't be a productive member of society. So you have to create happiness for yourself and this sometimes means leaving what was in past and moving on. Sometimes this needs to be done out of self-preservation because if you are slowly going batshit insane in a very bad situation, then you're just wasting yourself.

Ambitious people with ulterior motives who want to put in little work and want to receive more than they deserve for it is matter of human selfishness. If you want to know why selfishness exists in people then read books like selfish gene and alike where its roots are explained.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I took out the JUMP-SHIP metaphor. I used it as an example, but it doesnt really show my main point. The main focus of my OP was how people commit to things half-heartedly and insist on having one foot in and one foot out.

I think that INFJs tend to go ALL IN, but they are also ALL OUT, in the sense that once they figure things aren't working whether its in the beginning or in the middle, we can door slam people or groups of people. We can cut people or responsibilities off, whatever is most healthy for ourselves.

I really hope that nothing I wrote is taken out of context. I used some examples, but out of the rest of the discussion, it's not really accurate. I am specifically talking about 1) people who have "committed" to being part of a project, 2) people who are being half-hearted and NOT carrying through with what they said they were, and 3) insisting on having one foot in even though it's clear they're not doing the work for whatever reasons.

Just my opinion, but the "right" thing would be to front the issue and say "sorry, i can't be committed for xyz reasons, so you can make plans to replace me." I see THIS as acceptable. Ideally, we would all be loyal to the end, but there are sometimes reasons beyond are control that we really have to fold our cards. It's when people insist on being part of the project (for their selfish ends), but then they are not whole heartedly committed, so it fucks up the rest of the group's balance. I understand selfishness. I just think it's fucked up when people think it's OK to 1) be selfish and lead the others in their group on about their commitments actually are 2) excuse their actions as a human condition and 3) not own up to their responsibilities and commitments, and keep blaming their actions as a human thing.
 

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... I understand selfishness. I just think it's fucked up when people think it's OK to 1) be selfish and lead the others in their group on about their commitments actually are 2) excuse their actions as a human condition and 3) not own up to their responsibilities and commitments, and keep blaming their actions as a human thing.
Yeah it's fucked up in the way individuals undermine group effort and basically fuck everyone over with their behavior. I remember attending group meetings as a lowly intern and being surprised that everyone would keep so quiet and not say a thing to help or criticize another person in company giving presentation. It was very bad atmosphere for achieving a common goal. But what are you going to do about it? Just experiencing negative feelings about it doesn't change things.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I'm trying to figure this all out myself.

One thing is, to remind myself that I can't make others feel/ act/ react the way that I do and that putting my whole 'self' into relationships is unhealthy and it's going to hurt when I step back into reality.

Sometimes it's distinguishing whether you're putting 'everything' into it, or whether the other person is just plain lazy.

Don't settle for less but also, don't think too unrealistically.
Yeah, i guess I'm trying to figure this out for myself too. And also find the balance between having my standards and being realistic.

But what are you going to do about it? Just experiencing negative feelings about it doesn't change things.
In answering this, I quote my original post "i know how i feel about it, but how do you guys deal with things like this?"
 

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- just accept that it is going to happen and accept that I will never be same
- try not to associate/work with such people if at all possible, associate with people who like their work and do it too
- if not possible, identify what kind of pressure can be applied that they would be responsive to
- as a last resort try to publicly draw attention to their incompetence

I only had to deal with this once as mostly I have been lucky working in places were people liked their work and did it too. That one time I basically just excommunicated the guy from project. It was my own thing that I devised so I could pick whom to recruit to help me. Since he was all after loudly volunteering for everything in front of everyone, but then doing very little and even hampering efforts of others, I gently moved him aside and communicated only with people who demonstrated that they are interested in doing conscientious work. He resented me for it of course, but hey, it was the only logical course of action.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
- just accept that it is going to happen and accept that I will never be same
- try not to associate/work with such people if at all possible, associate with people who like their work and do it too
- if not possible, identify what kind of pressure can be applied that they would be responsive to
- as a last resort try to publicly draw attention to their incompetence

I only had to deal with this once as mostly I have been lucky working in places were people liked their work and did it too. That one time I basically just excommunicated the guy from project. It was my own thing that I devised so I could pick whom to recruit to help me. Since he was all after loudly volunteering for everything in front of everyone, but then doing very little and even hampering efforts of others, I gently moved him aside and communicated only with people who demonstrated that they are interested in doing conscientious work. He resented me for it of course, but hey, it was the only logical course of action.
This is interesting. I did the exact same thing last year, where I basically excommunicated a co-director from the project. He would always make loud statements and volunteer for everything, but he never followed through and it became obvious to everyone he wasn't getting his act together. And he would also hamper the efforts by others by saying how they wouldnt be able to make it happen. I didn't want a confrontation, so I took the same course of action as you did. I only talked with people who showed that they were 1) committed and 2) really interested in making this happen. At that time it seemed to me the only logical course of action, but now, i wonder if i can do things in a better way.

And yes he resented me as well and we are in very uncomfortable relations now. Lots of mutual acquaintances, a lot of anger and resentment on his part that he spills to everyone he meets on the way. We can't defriend each other because it would seriously be even worse in alienating each other where the social networks we are in are the same. so we have mutually blocked access to everything the person can access - so we are still facebook "friends" but the other person can't see anything except the profile picture and name. Not even basic information and general information.
 

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I remember the manager at my first job was big on telling us to "work smarter, not harder." Holy shit, did that ever rattle me. I mean, I guess if you take it at face value, there's some merit to working "smarter". But she didn't really want us to work "smarter", she wanted us to cut corners. And while I understood that in the grand scheme of things, sorting tops into sweaters, knits, and blouses, then sub-sectioning them based on sleeve length, color, and size wasn't really important, it somehow was to me.

Sometimes I think I have debilitating perfectionism. I don't pursue things if I won't be good at them. Truthfully, I envy the shit out of people who know they won't be good at something, but try anyway. I wish I gained fulfillment just from trying new things, rather than being good at them. It's sometimes appropriate to cut corners and I admire people who are at peace with being average some of the time.
 

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I can totally agree with you. The funny thing is that I've been thinking about this for a while.

When it comes to my last relationship I was all in.. I was very dedicated even though I felt she wasn't really into it. I still tried until eventually we broke up. Now when it comes to projects for school I definitely do my part no more or less than others. I also need a good team because then I lose the want to help if I feel that no one cares, But projects that involve self discipline I put all my efforts into it until I feel like I did enough to make me feel that I did well in that particular subject or until I deem it too ridiculous to continue. For example when I was dedicated to losing weight and I was unhappy with my looks. I started excerise and was decidated to a strict diet plan, that I followed for a year until I got to be where I wanted to be. I Bought new clothing. I went to a change that I needed to go through.

Commitment is huge to me so anytime I commit I put my all into it. I don't know if that what you mean though.
 

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I realize I'm bitchin' a lot lately, SORRY. But today I was thinking about some things... when it comes to relationships or projects, i feel like I put my ALL into it.... Once I commit, I'm loyal to carrying through and I'd never treat it half-heartedly... And i think this is characteristic of INFJs. We're all in. (we can also be all OUT - infj doorslam). The main point is that we are whole-heartedly dedicated or completely the opposite.

Today i also realized that most people I run into aren't like this... We can be working on something together, for a work or school project, but instead of treating it as a priority, it is something they are committed to half-heartedly and not really loyal to. I just think people should be more loyal and whole-heartedly committed to a certain degree.

So how do you guys deal with this in life? i'm sure we've all had our fair share of meeting flaky people...half-heartedly committed people....people with ulterior motives (insisting on having one foot in and one foot out).... etc... i feel like i need to set my foot down, but i have an internal struggle with this, and i feel like i need to accept people's commitment levels, even though it clashes with my own values? ....i know how i feel about it, but how do you guys deal with things like this?
I feel exactly the same way. I had a breakdown/moment-of-clarity this weekend about that very issue. Even had to rant about it to myself on my phone by writing a note about it. Allow me to cut and paste.

The world just takes and takes and takes. You give and give and give. Soon, there is very little left for you. You give that away too, because some poor soul needs it more than you do. Then you find yourself empty, spent, with nothing. You look around, asking for help. But noone does. You ask, "I have given all mine away.Will anyone spare just a little so I can get by?Please?! Just a little until I have time to recharge and continue giving." but noone answers. Then you wonder, "If I give all of mine away to make the world a better place, and nobody will give me back just a crumb...What the fuck is the point?!?" I am so tired of this existence, these people, all this bullshit. Where is the love, you stupid, dumb, selfish, ignorant, petty,soulless mother-fuckers???

My solution requires with-drawl from all eternal stimuli from the people in my life. Just a Sunday or a whateverday by myself to feel and think things through. To re-stabilize myself. Internal checklists and self lovin. This past weekend it was: joints and a visit down memory lane with my Game Cube...lol:tongue:
 

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I wonder if you're talking about the "J" / "P" dynamic. Us J's like to finish stuff - we can't rest until our work is done, but P's work differently. They're more apt to take breaks, fool around, and kind of meander to the finish line. Its in a P's nature to not want to finish, they like to keep their options open - sounds a lot like the people who are making you frustrated. On the other hand us J's just want to get there, we don't stop until we have closure.

Melinda
 
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