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I've always found that idea or label too simplistic, personally. I don't think it helps anyone to understand or type anyone. I think every type has a range. For instance, I have met very very introverted INTJs and closer to extroverted INTJs.... we are all on a pendulum on how extroverted or introverted we are, so I have never agreed to applying that idea/label to a whole type.
The point is Ne doms can get lost in their own world of possibilities for a time. We can also go out, explore, and then retreat to process what we've learned. I think dominant Ne can leave us feeling overwhelmed at times. One thing I have noticed is we're really good at chaotic situations. When everyone else is losing their heads, we seem to be able to keep our wits about us.
 

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I've always found that idea or label too simplistic, personally. I don't think it helps anyone to understand or type anyone. I think every type has a range. For instance, I have met very very introverted INTJs and closer to extroverted INTJs.... we are all on a pendulum on how extroverted or introverted we are, so I have never agreed to applying that idea/label to a whole type.
Well also, I think people forget that human beings as a species are pretty social creatures. If you look at a bell curve of most humans they would land at an average of being ambiverts. Meaning they have moments of wanting to be alone and moments of wanting to go out. So being slightly introverted, slightly extroverted, or an ambivert means you're a normal segment in our species. Life experiences can make there be outliers to extreme levels, like Ted Kaczynski. So being super extroverted or super introverted there could be something wrong with the individual. It always fascinates me how people assume because the preferences they chose on a test for personality assortment mean the individual in question is outgoing if they get an (E) at the front or shy if they get an (I). When that's not what those letters mean. I would say I'm special being an introverted ENFP, leaning to the shy side of things but when I examine the bell curve against all other human beings, I'm very average joe normal. Though yes I would agree Se is really in your face and energetic. At least when I have found with any ESFP I've ever met, they keep things lively and circulate around people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 · (Edited)
so varied interests = Ne-dom?

How did you come to this miraculous remark?



Like a big majority of people?
If you take randomly 100 people from the street and ask about their interests, at least 60 would answer with A LOT MORE things than Einstein would.



Like any sane person?

My opinion is that you have no idea how different people with the same type of personality can be, nor do you give enough importance to this aspect.

You have created an image of "this is what someone with personality X should look and behave" and you no longer consider that there are a ton of other influences that leave their mark on the fragment of personality interpretation that MBTI offers, which makes 2 people with the same type of personality not look alike at all, sometimes. Until you look very closely.

And I guarantee that you couldn't look very closely at the people you mentioned, to realize the similarities.

I see no Ne-dom in your list.
But I'm not sure about it because I didn't meet them to understand them through my lenses, not through their work/public image lense.
Did you?
We are talking about cognitive function patterns.
P = more breadth of interests. I did not say this was limited to Ne. Se also has breadth of interest. ExxP has more breadth of interests than IxxP in general due to tert Ni or Si limiting. ExxP dislikes any limiting. With Ne the most diverse your interests and the more you have then the more trans-contextual thinking you can do. There is something similar and equal with Se which I wouldn’t presume to be an expert on.
You know nothing about me and how I view individuals within a type, so I’m not sure what I said that seemed to trigger you so that you felt like expressing your assumptions of my views. You’re not in a position to comment on me and how I view individuals. I don’t know you and you don’t know me.

You said you don’t see Ne dom in any of these people, do you see Ne aux? If you don’t see Ne at all, then I think you probably need to go read about what Ne ia and how it works as a brain function, but I would be open to hearing about what patterns you see and how you view it.
You said you don’t see Ne dom in any of these people, do you see Ne six? If you don’t see Ne at all, then I think you probably need to go read about what Ne ia and how it works as a brain function, but I would be open to hearing about what patterns you see and how you view it.

I think most people who think they know what Ne is only think it means scatteredness or something. Probably because they can’t see Ne patterns. Because they don’t have Ne.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 · (Edited)
Well also, I think people forget that human beings as a species are pretty social creatures. If you look at a bell curve of most humans they would land at an average of being ambiverts. Meaning they have moments of wanting to be alone and moments of wanting to go out. So being slightly introverted, slightly extroverted, or an ambivert means you're a normal segment in our species. Life experiences can make there be outliers to extreme levels, like Ted Kaczynski. So being super extroverted or super introverted there could be something wrong with the individual. It always fascinates me how people assume because the preferences they chose on a test for personality assortment mean the individual in question is outgoing if they get an (E) at the front or shy if they get an (I). When that's not what those letters mean. I would say I'm special being an introverted ENFP, leaning to the shy side of things but when I examine the bell curve against all other human beings, I'm very average joe normal. Though yes I would agree Se is really in your face and energetic. At least when I have found with any ESFP I've ever met, they keep things lively and circulate around people.
I know some Se doms who come across as very mellow. They can spring into action when needed.

And then there are also very socially energetic Se doms.

Just each type has that pendulum within the type as we are saying.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
I actually think he's an ISTP that aspires to be an ENFJ. His biggest subjects of study are social ethics and goal setting. I attribute the values and process he teaches in both as Fe and Ni. His main mode of operating is through recognizing external details and asking questions about them in order to determine how their attribute fit into his mental models, so Se is used for the sake of Ti. Ni and Fe as well are incorporated into his personal mental model of how to operate in the world. Everything needs to make logical sense to him in order for it to be incorporated, and the most valuable tool of assesment to him is the ability to spot how it plays out in real time - Se.

He rarely uses hypotheticals or asks what kind of potentialities could be created from judging a certain object(very low Ne), he also keeps the use of logical tools strict to their concrete usecase, unless he spots overlaps in attributes or classifications, so his Se is above Ni. And in general, his S is above N.

If you'll go to him and say "Your Ne is brilliant!" for example, he'll probably ask you "What do you mean by Ne? Define it for me." "Trans-contextual thinking? How do you measure that?" "So the brain activity of individuals was assessed through operating different tasks, thus identifying the so-called brain function, aha, now we're talking in more solid terms. Well, what was the goal of the study, how did they try to disprove it to see that it's not wrong, and what methods did they use to validate their obsrvations?" "What studies can I find that peer review this study? Because right now it seems to be floating on thin air, but I don't want to discourage you, so I'll say thanks for reaching out to me and telling me about it, it certainly makes MBTI a bit more concrete for me now."
I think other people are bigger experts on Jordan Peterson than me for sure. I’ve watched probably only 25-30 videos of him, but I think it’s well enough for me to see his patterns. iThe Objective Personality folks type him ENTP and have studied him and Bill Gates to figure out how Ne dom memory works (the objective typers are NTJs).

Actually I see Peterson using lots of hypotheticals and using story to support his views just like you would expect from Ne as you have said. He pulls from lots of varied information to create concepts which is kind of the definition of Ne. Why are people not considering ENTP? What is it about him that makes you think ISTP? I’ve never seen ISTPs try to teach concepts (which they don’t do as a general rule, my dad is ISTP,) using examples. He’s pulling from Si into Ne is what I see.
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
The point is Ne doms can get lost in their own world of possibilities for a time. We can also go out, explore, and then retreat to process what we've learned. I think dominant Ne can leave us feeling overwhelmed at times. One thing I have noticed is we're really good at chaotic situations. When everyone else is losing their heads, we seem to be able to keep our wits about us.
Tan, what do you mean? Do you feel that dominant Ne makes you personally feel overwhelmed sometimes? Or other people overwhelmed?

I can’t think of anytime that too much information has made me feel overwhelmed... too many tasks to do, yes, but too much new information? I just want more constantly.... even in the middle of work I will feel deprived if I can’t go read something new. It’s actually what I do on breaks... is sit and look up all the concepts that have been itching for me to read about the past hours. The world got so good with the invention of Wikipedia

Other people overwhelmed? For sure. I usually tire out the INxPs with all my excitement for my new concepts that I’ve learned within the first 1-2 hours of seeing me. My INFP husband will go physically take a break away from me every two hours~ ish and then come back later ready to discuss more new ideas. Thank goodness he is also tests pretty high on P.
 
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We are talking about cognitive function patterns.
P = more breadth of interests. I did not say this was limited to Ne. Se also has breadth of interest. ExxP has more breadth of interests than IxxP in general due to tert Ni or Si limiting. ExxP dislikes any limiting. With Ne the most diverse your interests and the more you have then the more trans-contextual thinking you can do. There is something similar and equal with Se which I wouldn’t presume to be an expert on.
Do you struggle a lot to reach such bad conclusions or is it very comfortable for you?

Do you even realise this sentence:
With Ne the most diverse your interests and the more you have then the more trans-contextual thinking you can do.
works well even if you change "Ne" with anything else and it has nothing to do with Ne, which is just an extra word there?

You know nothing about me and how I view individuals within a type, so I’m not sure what I said that seemed to trigger you so that you felt like expressing your assumptions of my views. You’re not in a position to comment on me and how I view individuals. I don’t know you and you don’t know me.
Speak on your behalf.
When you post an opinion on a forum, you invite others to add something about that opinion. Or to overturn it completely if it's totally nonsense.


You said you don’t see Ne dom in any of these people, do you see Ne aux? If you don’t see Ne at all, then I think you probably need to go read about what Ne ia and how it works as a brain function, but I would be open to hearing about what patterns you see and how you view it.
You said you don’t see Ne dom in any of these people, do you see Ne six? If you don’t see Ne at all, then I think you probably need to go read about what Ne ia and how it works as a brain function, but I would be open to hearing about what patterns you see and how you view it.
What does it matter if I see Ne-aux or what I see?
I said you're wrong when it comes to stating "obviously blabla".
If it is obviously then you leave no door open for anything else.


I think most people who think they know what Ne is only think it means scatteredness or something. Probably because they can’t see Ne patterns. Because they don’t have Ne.
Let me guess, do you have Ne?
 

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@Llyralen I wouldn't trust a theory that is coining itself "objective". I have watched some of their videos before, I don't agree with their opinions. I'd rather adhere to Jung's definition of type, and in his definition, the Extraverted Intuitive in quote;
Whenever intuition predominates, a particular and unmistakable psychology presents itself. Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type. The intuitive is never to be found among the generally recognized reality values, but he is always present where possibilities exist. He has a keen nose for things in the bud pregnant with future promise. He can never exist in stable, long-established conditions of generally acknowledged though limited value: because his eye is constantly ranging for new possibilities, stable conditions have an air of impending suffocation. He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them. As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate. It is as though his whole life went out into the new situation. One gets the impression, which he himself shares, that he has just reached the definitive turning point in his life, and that from now on nothing else can seriously engage his thought and feeling. How- [p. 465] ever reasonable and opportune it may be, and although every conceivable argument speaks in favour of stability, a day will come when nothing will deter him from regarding as a prison, the self-same situation that seemed to promise him freedom and deliverance, and from acting accordingly. Neither reason nor feeling can restrain or discourage him from a new possibility, even though it may run counter to convictions hitherto unquestioned. Thinking and feeling, the indispensable components of conviction, are, with him, inferior functions, possessing no decisive weight; hence they lack the power to offer any lasting. resistance to the force of intuition. And yet these are the only functions that are capable of creating any effectual compensation to the supremacy of intuition, since they can provide the intuitive with that judgment in which his type is altogether lacking. The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour's convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type.

Apparently this type is more prone to favour women than men; in which case, however, the intuitive activity reveals itself not so much in the professional as in the social sphere. Such women understand the art of utilizing every social opportunity; they establish right social con- [p. 466] nections; they seek out lovers with possibilities only to abandon everything again for the sake of a new possibility.

It is at once clear, both from the standpoint of political economy and on grounds of general culture, that such a type is uncommonly important. If well-intentioned, with an orientation to life not purely egoistical, he may render exceptional service as the promoter, if not the initiator of every kind of promising enterprise. He is the natural advocate of every minority that holds the seed of future promise. Because of his capacity, when orientated more towards men than things, to make an intuitive diagnosis of their abilities and range of usefulness, he can also 'make' men. His capacity to inspire his fellow-men with courage, or to kindle enthusiasm for something new, is unrivalled, although he may have forsworn it by the morrow. The more powerful and vivid his intuition, the more is his subject fused and blended with the divined possibility. He animates it; he presents it in plastic shape and with convincing fire; he almost embodies it. It is not a mere histrionic display, but a fate.

This attitude has immense dangers -- all too easily the intuitive may squander his life. He spends himself animating men and things, spreading around him an abundance of life -- a life, however, which others live, not he. Were he able to rest with the actual thing, he would gather the fruit of his labours; yet all too soon must he be running after some fresh possibility, quitting his newly planted field, while others reap the harvest. In the end he goes empty away. But when the intuitive lets things reach such a pitch, he also has the unconscious against him. The unconscious of the intuitive has a certain similarity with that of the sensation-type. Thinking and feeling, being relatively repressed, produce infantile and archaic thoughts and feelings in the unconscious, which may be compared [p. 467] with those of the countertype. They likewise come to the surface in the form of intensive projections, and are just as absurd as those of the sensation-type, only to my mind they lack the other's mystical character; they are chiefly concerned with quasi-actual things, in the nature of sexual, financial, and other hazards, as, for instance, suspicions of approaching illness. This difference appears to be due to a repression of the sensations of actual things. These latter usually command attention in the shape of a sudden entanglement with a most unsuitable woman, or, in the case of a woman, with a thoroughly unsuitable man; and this is simply the result of their unwitting contact with the sphere of archaic sensations. But its consequence is an unconsciously compelling tie to an object of incontestable futility. Such an event is already a compulsive symptom, which is also thoroughly characteristic of this type. In common with the sensation-type, he claims a similar freedom and exemption from all restraint, since he suffers no submission of his decisions to rational judgment, relying entirely upon the perception of chance, possibilities. He rids himself of the restrictions of reason, only to fall a victim to unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object. His conscious attitude, both to the sensation and the sensed object, is one of sovereign superiority and disregard. Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior -- he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type -- only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation. [p. 468]
Trans-contextual thinking isn't mentioned there. Perception of possibilities and potentialities in the external is a more accurate short definition imo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
@Llyralen I wouldn't trust a theory that is coining itself "objective". I have watched some of their videos before, I don't agree with their opinions. I'd rather adhere to Jung's definition of type, and in his definition, the Extraverted Intuitive in quote;

Trans-contextual thinking isn't mentioned there. Perception of possibilities and potentialities in the external is a more accurate short definition imo.
I don’t agree with all of OP theories, but it’s not their name that puts me off. I was maybe going to include their video of a clip of Jordan Petersen talking about how his mind works.

Perceiving possibilities is part of Ne, but it’s only one way to say it. I see Jung’s work as just the beginning. i like Dario Nardi’s work which I think has really added a lot to Jung and to my current perceptions of the patterns I see in cognitive functions. Trans-contextual thinking is a current neuro science term and I like it to describe what Ne brains do in a nut-shell.
 

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I know some Se doms who come across as very mellow. They can spring into action when needed.

And then there are also very socially energetic Se doms.

Just each type has that pendulum within the type as we are saying.
I was agreeing with you, I hope you know that. But then you had to argue the point about my personal experiences with Se-doms. I'm saying in my personal experience (and yes it's probably a small swatch of ESFP/ESTPs I've been around, maybe 12 in whole) but all 12 are more socially active and extroverted than I am. It's from MY PERSONAL experience, so you can't change that fact. From your experience, you've met an outlier which as I stated in my post they do happen so I don't know why you're splicing hairs. Though as he is an ENTP (Devil's advocate) I can see his point about Ne vs Se.

Let's take a graph. If I was to put all the ENFP/ENTPs on it we would score somewhat in the middle and around it, Our bell curve could be slight to the left of center (introversion in the traditional meaning). This is from the countless polls and discussions on several MBTI sites about ENFPs. Occasionally we get an outlier that's more extroverted and then two years later they start double thinking they're really an ESFP/ESTP. Why? Because they're more extroverted and into physical experiences than the rest of us. More of us would place around the center or left of center. I've lost count on how many posts I've seen ENFP's wondering if they're INFPs because of our Fi. You would still have an occasional outlier of an extremely outgoing ENFP in the right and one in the far left. Outliers do happen when you're dealing with a population of ALL the ENFPs/ENTPs. Their human beings something happens to put them into those sections. Now if we take the ESFP/ESTP they might have a bell curve in the center as well but more of them fall slightly right of the mark (extroverted in the traditional meaning). I hope that better explains it. I understand you're a scientist, a nutritionist so I don't think I have to be redundant and have to explain a bell curve. Even though I agree with you, I was still giving credit to @tanstaafl28, which I think you've missed his point and are greatly overthinking. I can't believe I'm saying it, because I overthink everything.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Wow, what a revealing expose' of Einstein's academic history!
Loved it!

Okay, this is a bit confronting to me ...
I can sooo relate to the rebellious attitude Einstein had towards the professor's (ie: Weber).
Also, the skipping of lectures or disinterest in specific topics.
And the sense that the academics are teaching you irrelevant/outdated concepts.
The disconcerting feeling that my own interpretation of 'theory' was superior to the experts in the field.
As an ENTP, I was nodding my head as the author (Tibees) highlighted each of Einstein's apparent attitudes.

However, I personally never sought exceptional knowledge or impressive results academically.
I would get to a point in my study progress and then consider 'I knew enough', so I then lost interest ...
This where Einstein differs from an ENTP.

Einstein was committed to achievement and understanding academically.
I suspect Eintein was more attuned to academic success in a way that reflected his specific intellectual focus = Ti.
Also, Einstein and his peers required Si to validate their theories, so that is a significant variable that i'm taking to account.
Although I could be convinced that Einstein exhibited ENTP tendancies, I still feel he was an INTP (Ti-Ne-Si-xx).
I watched a bunch of videos about Einstein today and I am now leaning INTP as well. TI and Ne working strongly together, but socially it sounds like he was introverted. There are a lot of humanistic quotes that made me figure Fe higher, but he turned down being ruler of Israel saying he isn’t naturally good with people.
 
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I don’t agree with all of OP theories, but it’s not their name that puts me off. I was maybe going to include their video of a clip of Jordan Petersen talking about how his mind works.

Perceiving possibilities is part of Ne, but it’s only one way to say it. I see Jung’s work as just the beginning. i like Dario Nardi’s work which I think has really added a lot to Jung and to my current perceptions of the patterns I see in cognitive functions. Trans-contextual thinking is a current neuro science term and I like it to describe what Ne brains do in a nut-shell.
I wouldn't mind discussing their analysis, actually. But bear in mind that I'll be using critical thinking. I respect Nardi's work, but I think he attribute aspects to certain types while they can be shared with several. His work requires massive amount of generalizations and classifications of those generalizations. Some results might be correct, but the main fault of his work is that people are being self-typed, and to showcase how heavily a mistype can affect every result, I'll give a simple example - Nardi himself is an ISTJ! He typed himself through using the wrong parameters of judgment - He considers quirkyness and interest in nieche material to be an N aspect, for example. One needs to only read Jung's Si dom description in order to see that he's pretty much operating in the same manner.

It's pretty easy to fall into the trap of judging based on stereotypes, preferences or certain displayed abilities. That's not how type is originally meant to be determined, since the aspect most important in determining type is the key motivations. So I would disagree about Jung just being the base from which typology has grown to be better, because things are taken out of context and all meaning is robbed to the point that the typology community is seen as just another Horoscope community, everybody has a different opinion because everyone uses different methods, some more valid and some less.

But that's not the core issue for me in this case - The core issue is that some people here tend to refute a person's logic by showcasing some analysis that some socalled experts have made, as if it would convince the person or dismiss their opinion. This is straight up ignorance and denial and is something I find unbearable personally. I expect an answer that the person I'm discussing with has used their wits and own logic to come up with, because that's the only way to reach a mutual understanding.
 

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Thanks for your thoughts on this! I hadn't realised that Jordan Peterson was an ENFP, but it seems to make a lot of sense. Whenever he speaks, he has so many intertwining ideas intricately connected to eachother! Not unlike some ENFPs here! 😂
 

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I think people are pretty much in agreement about DaVinci being extraverted intuitive...?
 

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@Llyralen I wouldn't trust a theory that is coining itself "objective". I have watched some of their videos before, I don't agree with their opinions. I'd rather adhere to Jung's definition of type, and in his definition, the Extraverted Intuitive in quote;

Trans-contextual thinking isn't mentioned there. Perception of possibilities and potentialities in the external is a more accurate short definition imo.
That would be because Jung didn't know about it back then? Trans-contextual thinking came out of EEG measurements of different brains. Jung didn't have access to that kind of data.
 
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Tan, what do you mean? Do you feel that dominant Ne makes you personally feel overwhelmed sometimes? Or other people overwhelmed?

I can’t think of anytime that too much information has made me feel overwhelmed... too many tasks to do, yes, but too much new information? I just want more constantly.... even in the middle of work I will feel deprived if I can’t go read something new. It’s actually what I do on breaks... is sit and look up all the concepts that have been itching for me to read about the past hours. The world got so good with the invention of Wikipedia

Other people overwhelmed? For sure. I usually tire out the INxPs with all my excitement for my new concepts that I’ve learned within the first 1-2 hours of seeing me. My INFP husband will go physically take a break away from me every two hours~ ish and then come back later ready to discuss more new ideas. Thank goodness he is also tests pretty high on P.
I have discovered when I am trying to focus on one thing at a time, I have to pause distractions and not attempt to take in more data until I clear that item I needed to focus on. I sometimes just need to turn off the flow for a few minutes to catch my breath. Also, I've been in conversations where others can't keep up with me and they are completely lost with the connections I am able to make. I remember my ISTJ ex-wife telling me she didn't have time to hear my latest "data dump" and she'd have to get back to me later (she worked 4 extra jobs in addition to her full-time job, so she was always busy).
 
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That would be because Jung didn't know about it back then? Trans-contextual thinking came out of EEG measurements of different brains. Jung didn't have access to that kind of data.
Possibly yeah, but then I'd expect to at least see some similar mechanism that portrays that in his work, after all it's a pretty easy thing to spot.
 

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Possibly yeah, but then I'd expect to at least see some similar mechanism that portrays that in his work, after all it's a pretty easy thing to spot.
I don't recall Jung being that specific in his work.
 
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