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Discussion Starter #1
for those of you who aren't familiar, the Hare Psychopathy Checklist is a diagnostic tool used by professionals to assess psychopathy.
here is the whole list:
 
Factor 1: Interpersonal/Affective"​

  • Glibness/superficial charm
  • Grandiose sense of self-worth
  • Pathological lying
  • Cunning/manipulative
  • Lack of remorse or guilt
  • Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
  • Callousness; lack of empathy
  • Failure to accept responsibility for his or her own actions
  • Factor 2: Lifestyle/Antisocial."
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom​
  • Parasitic lifestyle
  • Poor behavioral control
  • Lack of realistic long-term goals
  • Impulsiveness
  • Irresponsibility
  • Juvenile delinquency
  • Early behavior problems
  • Revocation of conditional release
  • Criminal versatility
not correlated with either factor​
  • Promiscuous sexual behavior
  • Many short-term (marital) relationships
  • Acquired behavioral sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive)
In my opinion, factor two of the checklist is correlated with Enneagram types 7 and 3w2
Factor 1: Interpersonal/Affective"​

  • Glibness/superficial charm
  • Grandiose sense of self-worth
  • Pathological lying
  • Cunning/manipulative
  • Lack of remorse or guilt
  • Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric)
  • Callousness; lack of empathy
  • Failure to accept responsibility for his or her own actions
  • Factor 2: Lifestyle/Antisocial."

while factor two is correlated with the Sx/So variant and Enneagram types 8 and 7
Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom​
  • Parasitic lifestyle
  • Poor behavioral control
  • Lack of realistic long-term goals
  • Impulsiveness
  • Irresponsibility
  • Juvenile delinquency
  • Early behavior problems
  • Revocation of conditional release
  • Criminal versatility
 

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Once upon a time, we thought that Enneagram was about motivation, not behavior. What happened to that?


Also, how many more threads are you going to open in order to prove to yourself that your personal characteristics are completely type dependent and therefore neither in your control nor your responsibility? Because the answer is they aren't. If you don't face that, you will stay where you are right now forever.
 

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Well I'm a 3w2 sx/so. Things are looking good for me!

In all seriousness though, I could see Enneagram being related. Being a psychopath depends on what motivates you, and Enneagram can describe that.
 

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Once upon a time, we thought that Enneagram was about motivation, not behavior. What happened to that?


Also, how many more threads are you going to open in order to prove to yourself that your personal characteristics are completely type dependent and therefore neither in your control nor your responsibility? Because the answer is they aren't. If you don't face that, you will stay where you are right now forever.
This

Quote

needs

to go

all over

This

Fucking

Section

of the

Forum

because

it is

Rule of God.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Once upon a time, we thought that Enneagram was about motivation, not behavior. What happened to that?
what you're talking about isn't "once upon a time", it's a current trend based on a white washed interpretation of the enneagram and a desire to focus on the positive at the expense of accuracy and the less than convenient insights of real self awareness. as I've said numerous times, the enneagram is about mental traps, distortions in perspective and key virtues we are out of touch with.

Also, how many more threads are you going to open in order to prove to yourself that your personal characteristics are completely type dependent and therefore neither in your control nor your responsibility?
as soon as you stop putting words in my mouth and projecting intentions onto me.
you make it sound like I'm justifying my own psychopathic behavior, but, in reality, I score very low on this checklist despite correlating my own type with both factors. correlation ≠ inevitability.

at the end of the day, it's just a theory (I'm an Ne dom, I have a lot of them). while I enjoy discussing them, I know that I shouldn't take my own ideas too seriously and neither should you (I'm tired of people assuming I'm some expert writing a master's dissertation every time I share an idea with the clear intention of asking for feedback).


Because the answer is they aren't.
I'm a libertarian. I'm more aware of this than most. the difference is that I am also aware of what I'm naturally like (both the good and the bad) and the negative tendencies that are a part of my temperament. there are examples of all types who are successful, homeless and everything in between.

If you don't face that, you will stay where you are right now forever.
I've gone to great lengths to combat my natural tendencies of irresponsibility, rosy world view and avoidance of real work. I embrace the negative aspects of the Enneagram for two reasons:
1) If you don't know your negative tendencies, you cannot truly improve yourself. It is because I want to change, not as an excuse not to
2) I've always been attracted to fucked up stuff :cool:
 

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Also, how many more threads are you going to open in order to prove to yourself that your personal characteristics are completely type dependent and therefore neither in your control nor your responsibility?

as soon as you stop putting words in my mouth and projecting intentions onto me.
you make it sound like I'm justifying my own psychopathic behavior, but, in reality, I score very low on this checklist despite correlating my own type with both factors. correlation ≠ inevitability.

at the end of the day, it's just a theory (I'm an Ne dom, I have a lot of them).
Best contradiction of the day and I haven't even had my coffee yet.
 

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for those of you who aren't familiar, the Hare Psychopathy Checklist is a diagnostic tool used by professionals to assess psychopathy.
here is the whole list:
 


In my opinion, factor two of the checklist is correlated with Enneagram types 7 and 3w2



while factor two is correlated with the Sx/So variant and Enneagram types 8 and 7
:p lol I actually learned this when I somehow managed to figure out that my next door neighbor (he moved because he fucked up his life) was psychopathic. I pretty much went on an information binge regarding psychopaths and learned as much as I could. Also developed a sort of 6-th sense for this, when something triggers such suspicions my best friend reports that my pupils contract and I get really focused. Internally I experience it as "flushing" emotions down the toilet, danger mode, extreme testing and critical evaluation of the suspected individual. This is why superficial Fe-ish people usually trigger me with their friendliness. Wonder if this is counter-phobic thou.

Its like I'm a white Doakes XD




Psychopaths mostly resemble type 7 and 7 only, I'd say 7w8 sx/sp or sp/sx would be most accurate considering the factors. The motivation would fit really well.
 

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what you're talking about isn't "once upon a time", it's a current trend based on a white washed interpretation of the enneagram and a desire to focus on the positive at the expense of accuracy and the less than convenient insights of real self awareness. as I've said numerous times, the enneagram is about mental traps, distortions in perspective and key virtues we are out of touch with.


as soon as you stop putting words in my mouth and projecting intentions onto me.
you make it sound like I'm justifying my own psychopathic behavior, but, in reality, I score very low on this checklist despite correlating my own type with both factors. correlation ≠ inevitability.

at the end of the day, it's just a theory (I'm an Ne dom, I have a lot of them). while I enjoy discussing them, I know that I shouldn't take my own ideas too seriously and neither should you (I'm tired of people assuming I'm some expert writing a master's dissertation every time I share an idea with the clear intention of asking for feedback).



I'm a libertarian. I'm more aware of this than most. the difference is that I am also aware of what I'm naturally like (both the good and the bad) and the negative tendencies that are a part of my temperament. there are examples of all types who are successful, homeless and everything in between.


I've gone to great lengths to combat my natural tendencies of irresponsibility, rosy world view and avoidance of real work. I embrace the negative aspects of the Enneagram for two reasons:
1) If you don't know your negative tendencies, you cannot truly improve yourself. It is because I want to change, not as an excuse not to
2) I've always been attracted to fucked up stuff :cool:
I'm not dissecting what you said because I don't think that would get us anywhere. This is not about this particular post. It is about an underlying trend that is at the heart of most of your posts, and also has generally been surfacing in this subforum for some time now. I'm an Ni dominant, I notice trends. And while I am also a flawed human being, I can at least tell you what it looks like to me - and that is, that you are running away. You write all these posts that state how sevens, or Id types, or whatever you happen to be are a certain flawed way - and how types that you aren't are somehow just as stereotypically worse than yours. You write about it so often that I cannot but think that you don't really believe in it yourself, and therefore have to state it again and again, just to prove it to yourself, and have an excuse. A tendency to run away from truths actually is a typical seven characteristic, and that is exactly what you are doing.

Don't be mistaken - I don't say that to hurt you. In a way, I care for you. I know you've been through a lot. It's not your fault you are the way you are. But it's your responsibility to make something out of it. Not only you, but everyone, really. And that is why I generally don't like these threads, that excuse behavior with type, or let you point your finger and say: "Well, considering which type I am, I'm still quite good!" It leads nowhere.

I'm not going to further defend this opinion to you. I'd be glad if it helped you in any way.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
@Holunder
I'm not dissecting what you said because I don't think that would get us anywhere. This is not about this particular post. It is about an underlying trend that is at the heart of most of your posts, and also has generally been surfacing in this subforum for some time now. I'm an Ni dominant, I notice trends.
and like many Ni users, you incorrectly identified the cause of this trend.

And while I am also a flawed human being, I can at least tell you what it looks like to me - and that is, that you are running away. You write all these posts that state how sevens, or Id types, or whatever you happen to be are a certain flawed way - and how types that you aren't are somehow just as stereotypically worse than yours. You write about it so often that I cannot but think that you don't really believe in it yourself, and therefore have to state it again and again, just to prove it to yourself, and have an excuse. A tendency to run away from truths actually is a typical seven characteristic, and that is exactly what you are doing.
you mistake my ability to nonchalantly talk about my demons and laugh at myself for thinking my neuroses are superior to others. but yes, I do have a natural tendency to run away from the less convenient sides of life. this at least you identified correctly, but it's nothing new, I'm painfully aware of it within myself.


Don't be mistaken - I don't say that to hurt you. In a way, I care for you. I know you've been through a lot. It's not your fault you are the way you are. But it's your responsibility to make something out of it. Not only you, but everyone, really. And that is why I generally don't like these threads, that excuse behavior with type, or let you point your finger and say: "Well, considering which type I am, I'm still quite good!" It leads nowhere.
I'm not going to further defend this opinion to you. I'd be glad if it helped you in any way.
I welcome criticism, but in it's proper time and place. it's not relevant to this thread

however, what bothered me most was this part
Also, how many more threads are you going to open in order to prove to yourself that your personal characteristics are completely type dependent and therefore neither in your control nor your responsibility? Because the answer is they aren't. If you don't face that, you will stay where you are right now forever.
would you like to know what I was like before I studied the Enneagram? I was a spoiled, lazy, delusional brat who thought he could start a business with barely any work, no money and no skills. the only thing I viewed people as was in terms of useful/not useful and cut away anyone who was not useful. since studying the Enneagram
- I've actually learned to view people as people as opposed to cannon fodder
- I've gone back to school, have decent study habits and am actually making real progress toward my goals
- my relationship with my parents has improved (before I basically viewed them as slaves. not consciously of course, but underneath it all that's about what they amounted to)
- I've developed reasonable social skills and charm
- I've realized that I have a giant fucking ego. I've embraced this and decided to use it as a tool to better my life, but I have also learned how to detach from it, how to laugh at myself and put on the breaks if it's about to make me do something stupid.
- I've gained some vestiges of discipline and consistency
- I've realized how little I actually know and have a more realistic idea of the knowledge, skills and hard work necessary to get where I want to do
- as I said, I still struggle with running away, but I've gotten to the point where at least some of the time, I can actually face reality

so no, I don't believe the Enneagram is some unbreakable string of the Fates. I study the darker aspects of it because it has given me the tools to work on myself and believe that facing your real demons is part of what makes life fulfilling (after all, what would a good story be without a few monsters to slay?).
 

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I TOTALLY agree with @Holunder

Yeah.. *Another thread made to glorify id types and Sx dominants... THE ''BAD'' LIONS AND TIGERS OF THE ENNEAGRAM*

 
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I knew there was a reason that I thought, I really don't like people like this, when I was reading the Type 8 description once...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I TOTALLY agree with @Holunder
Yeah.. *Another thread made to glorify id types and Sx dominants... THE ''BAD'' LIONS AND TIGERS OF THE ENNEAGRAM*
if you consider being correlated with psychopathy as being "glorified", perhaps

if you paid any attention to my posts, you'd see I glorify Sp dominants, not Sx dominants (I've said this explicitly on many occasions).

anyway, could we please get back on topic? :dry:
 

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if you consider being correlated with psychopathy as being "glorified", perhaps

if you paid any attention to my posts, you'd see I glorify Sp dominants, not Sx dominants (I've said this explicitly on many occasions).

anyway, could we please get back on topic? :dry:
Very honestly, it seems to me that you both glorify Sp and Sx dominants, lol :wink:

The associations you made in the OP seem so wishy-washy, scattered and stereotypical... The traits that are displayed there are pathological (and used as a diagnostic tool) - therefore they aren't type related. Any type can display them because they are associated with human biology and mental illness/disorders, IMO.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Very honestly, it seems to me that you both glorify Sp and Sx dominants, lol :wink:
the fact that I resisted typing as Sx dominant should be proof enough that I don't glorify them (I don't exactly have a negative opinion of them, but my Sp tendencies have benefited me far more than the Sx ones. the Sx tendencies mostly just get in the way and cause me heartache and feelings of deprived desperation. no one is denying that they're fun and glamorous, but being practicality first; glamour/seeking intense rushes second would be far more convenient imo)

also, have you seen any of the things I've said about Sx/So? no one in their right mind would assume I glorify that type.

The associations you made in the OP seem so wishy-washy, scattered and stereotypical... The traits that are displayed there are pathological (and used as a diagnostic tool) - therefore they aren't type related. Any type can display them because they are associated with human biology and mental illness/disorders, IMO.
1) in that case, I challenge you to find me a psychopath who is a 2w3 or 9w1.
2) the Enneagram is pathological, so I don't see your point
3) scoring high on this checklist ≠ being a psychopath. even if psychopathy is not type related, can you honestly tell me criminal tendencies are not?
 

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1) in that case, I challenge you to find me a psychopath who is a 2w3 or 9w1.
I don't know much about psychopaths lol. In fact, I believe some of them shouldn't be typed at all... (how can you type a (hu)man who has severe distortions in the emotional cognitive field? it's something that the enneagram doesn't deal with...)

2) the Enneagram is pathological, so I don't see your point
The enneagram is about pathological neurosis... not psychosis or severe mental illness.


3) scoring high on this checklist ≠ being a psychopath. even if psychopathy is not type related, can you honestly tell me criminal tendencies are not?
Those tendencies depend on manyyy factors such as: economic life conditions, education level, relationship with parents, childhood environment, the hometown, etc etc. To rely exclusively on the type to explain that life choise is a huge mistake in my opinion.
 
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I don't know much about psychopaths lol. In fact, I believe some of them shouldn't be typed at all... (how can you type a (hu)man who has severe distortions in the emotional cognitive field? it's something that the enneagram doesn't deal with...)
but you see, Enneagram is all about severe distortions of the mental/cognitive field. really fucked up individuals are easier to type via the Enneagram, not harder. when one becomes fixated, the fixation takes over the true self and they display textbook tendencies of their type under stress. it is the healthier individuals with stronger observing ego and self awareness who are hard to type.


The enneagram is about pathological neurosis... not psychosis or severe mental illness.
but one's Enneagram type has the potential to steer one toward mental illness. there is a reason why Naranjo associates most of the 9 types with different mental illnesses.


Those tendencies depend on manyyy factors such as: economic life conditions, education level, relationship with parents, childhood environment, the hometown, etc etc. To rely exclusively on the type to explain that life choise is a huge mistake in my opinion.
of course they depend on many factors, and I think that the Enneagram is one of them. that's why the title of the thread is "Hare Psychopathy Checklist/Enneagram Correlation.

people these days are so scared of "stereotyping" that they shy away from obvious observations and patterns.

for example:
- 3w2s are usually more popular than 4w5s
- 7w8s are usually more bad ass than 9s
- Sx doms are usually more glamorous than Sp/So (on a side note, what you think is me glorifying Sx doms is me being honest about their real nature. the Sx instinct is glamorous, attention grabbing, obsessive and dramatic. it doesn't make them better than other types, but it is a aspect of their character that cannot be ignored
- 1s are usually more disciplined than 7s

anyone who would deny these patterns accepts little about the enneagram.
it doesn't mean I think it's the case 100% of the time. Khaleesi from Game of Thrones, a 9, is way more bad ass than most 7w8s, Johnny Depp, a 4w5, is more popular than most 3w2s could ever dream of, Steve Jobs, a 7, was extremely disciplined, but outliers do not negate easily observable trends and the easily observable trend here is that naturally more aggressive and egocentric enneagram types are more likely to exhibit behaviors associated with psychopathy/sociopathy.
 

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but you see, Enneagram is all about severe distortions of the mental/cognitive field. really fucked up individuals are easier to type via the Enneagram, not harder. when one becomes fixated, the fixation takes over the true self and they display textbook tendencies of their type under stress. it is the healthier individuals with stronger observing ego and self awareness who are hard to type.

but one's Enneagram type has the potential to steer one toward mental illness. there is a reason why Naranjo associates most of the 9 types with different mental illnesses.
So, let's imagine someone is diagnosed with an anxiety disorder... is that person necessarily a 6? :laughing:
(according to your line of thinking the answer is yes - and I am 212% sure that situations like this one aren't type related).


- 3w2s are usually more popular than 4w5s
- 7w8s are usually more bad ass than 9s
- Sx doms are usually more glamorous than Sp/So (on a side note, what you think is me glorifying Sx doms is me being honest about their real nature. the Sx instinct is glamorous, attention grabbing, obsessive and dramatic. it doesn't make them better than other types, but it is a aspect of their character that cannot be ignored
- 1s are usually more disciplined than 7s

anyone who would deny these patterns accepts little about the enneagram.
it doesn't mean I think it's the case 100% of the time. Khaleesi from Game of Thrones, a 9, is way more bad ass than most 7w8s, Johnny Depp, a 4w5, is more popular than most 3w2s could ever dream of, Steve Jobs, a 7, was extremely disciplined, but outliers do not negate easily observable trends and the easily observable trend here is that naturally more aggressive and egocentric enneagram types are more likely to exhibit behaviors associated with psychopathy/sociopathy.


You are taking things to the extreme - and falling into the trap of categorizing everything by using this system. As said before the enneagram has a deeper connection with motivations, not actions. Why does someone wants fame? Why certain people need discipline and order while others don't? Why do some of us adopt a tough outside?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
So, let's imagine someone is diagnosed with an anxiety disorder... is that person necessarily a 6? :laughing:
....you're not listening to me.
I'm saying the person is more likely to be a 6. yes, there are 8w9s who have anxiety disorders too, but there are several times more 6s who do. you can't seriously tell me there are as many 8w9s with anxiety disorders as 6s and 5s.


You are taking things to the extreme - and falling into the trap of categorizing everything by using this system. As said before the enneagram has a deeper connection with motivations, not actions. Why does someone wants fame? Why certain people need discipline and order while others don't? Why do some of us adopt a tough outside?
I'm aware of this. the difference is that don't deny the obvious correlations between motivations and actions. correlations can range from perfect (100% correlated) to very loose correlations, such as those I'm proposing. if you cannot grasp this simple concept we will be going in circles.
 

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yes, there are 8w9s who have anxiety disorders too, but there are several times more 6s who do. you can't seriously tell me there are as many 8w9s with anxiety disorders as 6s and 5s.
Interesting..
 
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