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There are many memes about the Disney movies we grew up with. How Ariel wants to run off with a man she just met, how Belle has Stockholm syndrome, and how Jasmine, ends up with a man who lied to her about his status. But, at some level, I'd think we can understand these are fantasy stories and are not necessarily meant to be a reflection of reality. I don't know too many young women who modeled their relationships after the Disney princess model. On the other hand, they are based in enduring archetypes that has been an appealing basis for stories to women for generations.

Then you get to the literature that came out when many people were teens: Twilight, then later on, 50 shades of gray. These are just the really famous examples, but I imagine there's a whole subgenre of novels like this. I mean the kind of male romantic figure being presented is nothing new, and goes all the way back to the 19th century, being dubbed as the "Byronic hero": moody, mysterious, super rich and/or powerful, and full of angst. This is an old trope. In high school, I read Jane Eyre, and I love it, but if I were to describe Jane Eyre it would be that a naive young woman false in love with a much older man who locked his wife in the attic for years. Seems a bit creepy, if you were to stop and really think about it. I don't think too many women would specifically seek that kind of relationship, but what of the dynamic between Jane and Rochester, the dialogue, the presentation of Rochester of a rather dark and brooding man who is transformed by love?

Of course, this isn't based on reality, so much it's based on a common female fantasy of seeing a man in the depths and transforming him into something better. It's a common girlfriend stereotype to say "I know he's rough, but I can change him." I mean, essentially that's what Beauty and the Beast is all about, really: the feminine transformation archetype, a very common feminine archetype. Also with Aladdin, you see that term, "the diamond in the rough."

I wonder, if, by using these common archtypes, if many books, films, etc. are presenting the idea of a relationship that is actually somewhat toxic, and in some instances, outright abusive, as something to pursue or healthy? I mean there's another thread about women being in relationships with convicts. It does make me wonder if the media presents to women an unrealistic standard to pursue when it comes to a successful relationship.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Thinking on my relationship:
I'm with someone who is likely the opposite of what the media tells women we should find attractive, as in very nice, intelligent, cheerful, overall a huge nerd, but I've seen how I've had a positive influence on his life, because one of the few things a relationship can actually improve in a man is his confidence level. I've actually seen how his confidence level has improved, over time, and it's so satisfying to see. I find it silly when women say, "I didn't find him attractive because he's not confident." If that's the only reason a woman doesn't find a man attractive, I wonder if they stop in think that said man probably lacks confidence because women didn't find him attractive...because he lacks confidence.
Thus it completes a vicious cycle.
Confidence is definitely something that can be improved with finding love, but a man who's an addict, who has a toxic personality, who domineering, or is a stalkery creeper: these things are less likely to be improved by being in a relationship with someone.
 

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I feel the actual problem here is “dramatization”. Maybe there’s a better word.

People don’t flock to blockbusters to see “normal” or common things. They go to see drama, conflict, and other unfamiliar concepts. They go to escape reality.

I believe there’s a lot of people that confuse “dramatization” with reality. Add that with biased news, social media nonsense, and parents that don’t parent, and you’ll be looking at a generation that thinks it knows the real world.

Girls that think abuse is normal, and all the other things you girls do and say. Boys theorizing amongst themselves on what girls are like without ever confirming with an actual girl. By the time puberty hits, all hell breaks loose.

It’s all part of what I call the Digital Veil. A disillusionment of reality that can only be backed by what an individual has ‘discovered’ through media and internet.

The AI Singularity will be able to use the Digital Veil against its brainwashed subjects.
 

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Thinking on my relationship:
I'm with someone who is likely the opposite of what the media tells women we should find attractive, as in very nice, intelligent, cheerful, overall a huge nerd, but I've seen how I've had a positive influence on his life, because one of the few things a relationship can actually improve in a man is his confidence level. I've actually seen how his confidence level has improved, over time, and it's so satisfying to see. I find it silly when women say, "I didn't find him attractive because he's not confident." If that's the only reason a woman doesn't find a man attractive, I wonder if they stop in think that said man probably lacks confidence because women didn't find him attractive...because he lacks confidence.
Thus it completes a vicious cycle.
Confidence is definitely something that can be improved with finding love, but a man who's an addict, who has a toxic personality, who domineering, or is a stalkery creeper: these things are less likely to be improved by being in a relationship with someone.
I take exception to being expected to 'fix' men. I do my best to 'fix' my issues. I expect men to work on themselves too. I'm not going to bang my head against the wall trying to fix people who don't want to be fixed. I disagree with confidence originating with who you are dating. It's something that we develop in ourselves and it comes from inside. I'm not a fan of Pride and Prejudice, Jane Eyre and Beauty and the Beast and a lot of romance stories. As a kid, I really didn't like Beauty and the Beast. He's mean. These women come off as foolish and put up with too much. My father would never speak to me or my mother like that. My mother would never put up with it. I don't raise my voice at people just because I'm having a bad day or don't like what they say.

I don't know what values women are learning at home, but the man who doesn't realize he's hurting people because he's an asshole is so done. I could see the Beast was an asshole when I was five, I wish more women would see it. What are their parents teaching them?
 

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What are their parents teaching them?
I would argue that the parents aren’t teaching at all.

It’s been my belief for some time that many americans have kids to just have them. A process that doesn’t include teaching or parenting.
 

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I think it's about the father figure/family problems, and environments. Somehow those stories from disney are just too superficial (Not some. and not just disney; Fifty shades of grey somehow showing sadistic guy with a sub girl which has low self esteem).

Some of Disneys or some romance novels picturing the girl waiting for their loved ones/prince charming or being neglected. (Even though some are NOT. like mulan, Pocahontas, Frozen(Elsa) etc.)

I'm not American so somehow my parents are very controlling. I've seen some american parents (from Tv shows or movies) really treat their children with compassion, and tend to let their children do whatever as long as they're happy with it(what I've noticed but I'm NOT talking for all the american parents) which I consider, It would be minimum for girls to turned out having "toxic" relationship unless if their own inner circle itself is already toxic. Could be the person don't have figures that able to help them just because they tend to be private about it.(That means lack of support around them)

I learned that somehow daughters are the closest to their father which also could be the core of it.

The more I look into it, I see some girls really does "try" to fix the guy they "love". Which somehow I noticed that they always got problems in their family(I guess it's because they couldn't create the intimacy on their own near circle first or lack of father figure; Parents divorce; Abusive childhood both mentally, physically or verbally ) plus, I think the medias and movies does could affect children's brain.

(It's just from my view and experience)
 

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I think parenting and modeling at home are way more important than whatever girls see in the media. I knew even when I was like 6 that the stuff in movies and TV was mostly fake.

My dad is pretty much an asshole. He came from a narcissistic, emotionally abusive family, and he never learned what a healthy relationship looks like. It's funny because when he sees other people being affectionate with their spouses or children he thinks it's all for show. When I was younger I also thought the same way, or thought those people were just saps or drama queens, because in my family we weren't all goopy and affectionate like that. It was weird when my parents hugged me.

Even when I was in my early twenties I would often think people who were being friendly or took an interest in me were incredibly fake or had an ulterior motive. In a few instances I even felt more relaxed and trusting after a guy behaved aggressively toward me and used rough language. I guess internally I assumed every person is an asshole and when they're being nice they're putting up a front. Goes to show how far what you see at home as a child informs your view of reality.

I think it's true that many girls try to model what they see in media, but the types of girls who will do this often lack self-confidence and are gullible. They would probably be more likely to go after and stay in toxic relationships even without the media influence. So media consumption and women's unhealthy behavior may go together, but the media representations themselves may not be the driving factor.
 

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It depends on the environment. If environment raises someone in an abusive environment, it is highly unlikely that the subject would consider it an abuse. Unless the subject gets a feedback from another environment. Here environment can include media, parents, teachers, society and so on. In short, yes however it can be reduced to an extent.
 

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It's interesting to hear/see/read this, because I was born in 1965. Personal computers weren't really a thing until i was grown up, windows 3.x and internet browsers didn't happen until the 90s, and the country I come from banned television until the late 1970's.

So my own source base is basically made up of books and [much less frequently ] movies. And imo, people inferring what 'life' and people are like from what fiction shows them is nothing new. That's always been kind of the point of fiction iyam. It's there to augment or supplement what we can experience directly.

What interests me is the commentary about calibre in current times. Is it better or worse or the same? I'm not sure, but it does seem to me like there's a notable lack of nuance these days, compared with my formative times. There's a lot of crap fiction from the 70s and 80s, for sure. but i have noticed that books from the 70s particularly may not all have been very expertly written. .. But they do/did seem to be far more engaged with some form of social problem. The introspection was more about individuals' line of personal intersection with the society/times they were living in. There was a lot going on in those years.

I also think that there ought to be more attention paid to what men are being taught women are like and what they can expect from women, via fiction. For instance, I don't think the softening and selling of the tough self-sufficient woman is a bad thing exactly - a woman with those traits was far more likely to be presented as a 'ballbreaker' trope 30 years ago, iirc. But I think she's irrelevant. She's just as one dimensional and has become just as much of a commodity within fiction, as the Madonna-doormat stereotype that she's replaced.
 
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There are many memes about the Disney movies we grew up with. How Ariel wants to run off with a man she just met, how Belle has Stockholm syndrome, and how Jasmine, ends up with a man who lied to her about his status. But, at some level, I'd think we can understand these are fantasy stories and are not necessarily meant to be a reflection of reality. I don't know too many young women who modeled their relationships after the Disney princess model. On the other hand, they are based in enduring archetypes that has been an appealing basis for stories to women for generations.

Then you get to the literature that came out when many people were teens: Twilight, then later on, 50 shades of gray. These are just the really famous examples, but I imagine there's a whole subgenre of novels like this. I mean the kind of male romantic figure being presented is nothing new, and goes all the way back to the 19th century, being dubbed as the "Byronic hero": moody, mysterious, super rich and/or powerful, and full of angst. This is an old trope. In high school, I read Jane Eyre, and I love it, but if I were to describe Jane Eyre it would be that a naive young woman false in love with a much older man who locked his wife in the attic for years. Seems a bit creepy, if you were to stop and really think about it. I don't think too many women would specifically seek that kind of relationship, but what of the dynamic between Jane and Rochester, the dialogue, the presentation of Rochester of a rather dark and brooding man who is transformed by love?

Of course, this isn't based on reality, so much it's based on a common female fantasy of seeing a man in the depths and transforming him into something better. It's a common girlfriend stereotype to say "I know he's rough, but I can change him." I mean, essentially that's what Beauty and the Beast is all about, really: the feminine transformation archetype, a very common feminine archetype. Also with Aladdin, you see that term, "the diamond in the rough."

I wonder, if, by using these common archtypes, if many books, films, etc. are presenting the idea of a relationship that is actually somewhat toxic, and in some instances, outright abusive, as something to pursue or healthy? I mean there's another thread about women being in relationships with convicts. It does make me wonder if the media presents to women an unrealistic standard to pursue when it comes to a successful relationship.
I just literally relogged in, and am holding pee to check this one out.

..you can see it. Impressed. Its called a hologram. Its intent is covert social prog.

The REAL stalkerish creeper would be someone who has real obsessions about women or a woman. And that means that he must OWN in a slave way that girl or woman or what ever. Its a desire to control instead of set free to win. And its mainly done by psychological manipulation and money control. All of that is based on not feeling eligible to have that other persons attention. Its based on low self esteem and inferiority complex while being projected out as dominance and control. Meaning deep down, all psychopaths know they are just another mediocre loser having to deceit to achive casual success.
 
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Im hyper happy you chose independently. The question is, how did you bypass the social programming? :))))))))

And another q would be, if you can access reason, which you obviously do, how are you considering altruism as a next stepping stone. No need to publicly resp here. Just more like for you to connect with it yourself.
 

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Lets try something here.

He stands half naked and on the desert plain. Holding the severed head of an enemy in his left hand. A sword in the right. His body glistening with blood and sweat of battle. He sees a young woman dressed in a white flowing gown in the the distance.

Do you picture the scene and write your self in it ?
 

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The vast majority of contemporary media has encouraged women to be at service of others. This has shifted a tad recently but then again a lot of fictional female characters are very much binary and lack depth (a lot of male characters too, just not as many, and also: their roles have much more variety, because being a carreerist is actually seen as a highly regarded male trait but is dismissed in women, so, accordingly, although unconsciously, medias follow the trend and bring more different roles for men). For Disney, much like a lot of stories that used to be taught in childhood or movies from Hollywood, the recipe used to be simple and was actually reflective and inspired by what was expected of women within society, as anything fictional is shaped by reality as much as it shapes reality: you are happy if you are in love and you have children. So this kind of recipe (twisted a bit differently depending on its fictional source) just led a lot of women to live through others, in my opinion. I am not dismissing love, I just think co-dependency is actually incredibly common, and especially in women. Medias did not teach to care for our professional path as much as our love one, which makes a lot of women desperate to find themselves in there and to be of worth through their loved one.

I agree that you are going to be much more easily manipulated by fiction if you are more malleable and naive, and I would say also a romantic. Critical thinking is not taught by every parent and is not innate for everyone. It was not for me, and I would say for a lot of women and even men I know, it's not either. A lot of people are fine living with what they are taught, consciously or unconsciously. And here comes the second part of my point: you carry everything you have ever watched and read with you. My favorite Disney movies when I was little were Mulan and Tarzan, so basically someone independant going out of their way to save/help their families and find themselves ect. The main attractive point for me being independance and individuality. I valued my freedom and did not care to look for a relationship. But it doesn't matter, because this was still deeply encrusted to the core in me, and probably still is, partly, that is, which means Disney and other medias bled their ways through me in how I treated my friendships, and then my actual romantic relationship, when finally falling for it. Anything you get passionate about in childhood just stays a little with you forever (when you are still completely open about learning anything from the outside world), and no need to be highly romantic to crave for a little love from others, and love in itself is a tad mysterious, mostly explicable through imagination, coincidentally. I actually think what would be naive is to think you are completely above brainwashing even if you have binge-watched every Disney or any kind of fiction depicting stereotypical love when you were little, or even recently. That is how I see it. So this to me requires being constantly open about changing your own ways and learning something new at every turn so as to avoid repeating the same sad bullshit over and over and actually bringing change to this society by at least applying this change to yourself.

And I am not saying this to dismiss your relationship or personal choices but it is actually pretty common for women to try to save or fix their partners. Because it means both 1)Being kind and empathetic, 2)Helping others, the two most encouraged traits in women from the medias we grew with.
 

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Ronney is up for testing peoples empathy. :)

How about you Ronney, do you? And be honest here.
Yeah I pictured that's how I wrote it (I'm the savage)
The example is a savage and a innocent. The theory is women are attracted to a dangerous man and men are attracted to young virginal women. Obviously we can't have those fantasies. So we find someone we attractive enough. etc.
 

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@Convallaria Majalis
I think I relate to some of what you’re saying.

However think about this. Where does the influence of those changes come from? Who else do you know that agrees a change should be made? Who is responsible for implying there was a problem to begin with?

If you can’t answer a single one of those questions with the name of someone you know and see regularly, turn around and run. You can’t change a world you’ll never meet in person.
 
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@Convallaria Majalis
I think I relate to some of what you’re saying.

However think about this. Where does the influence of those changes come from? Who else do you know that agrees a change should be made? Who is responsible for implying there was a problem to begin with?

If you can’t answer a single one of those questions with the name of someone you know and see regularly, turn around and run. You can’t change a world you’ll never meet in person.
Maybe I am missing something but what is the logic behind your reasoning, should we all follow a single higher-being? Collective consciousness is enough of an answer, although I am fortunate enough to have some friends who do not want to be manipulated by what they are taught and want to make their own choices. I want equality and freedom of paths for all, and I think stereotypes are deeply hurtful to individuals' potential and well-being. That is enough for me to want a change.
 

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Lets try something here.

He stands half naked and on the desert plain. Holding the severed head of an enemy in his left hand. A sword in the right. His body glistening with blood and sweat of battle. He sees a young woman dressed in a white flowing gown in the the distance.

Do you picture the scene and write your self in it ?
Is that my severed head? I mean, who's his enemy? If I put myself in the scene, it gets ugly quickly.
 

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Is that my severed head? I mean, who's his enemy? If I put myself in the scene, it gets ugly quickly.
I couldn't be bothered writing a novel.

I'll continue... The young woman strips naked to bathe in the river. She turns and sees the fit wild man collapse from dehydration. The head of the evil tyrant rolls out of his grasp.
 

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Yea let's just blame it on media, government, men, anybody but yourself. Never let self-responsibility reign. Gucci strategy ngl. Makes everything too easy. Never take responsibility until we've achieved a perfect world where we will have no responsibilities. Best idea bro. I'm gonna live by it from now on. Brb gonna go rape a dog or something and then blame it on toxic masculinity drilled into me by my parents or summat.
 
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