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Isn't that means that he is.... just an inordinary kind of beast... "the diamond in the rough", too? Of course, as you stated, he is different from the pack. But ... does it make you different from your pack?

Really apologize for being blunt. Since this is a personality forum, this topic brought some reminiscence into Jung's original thinking: electra complex
Nothing wrong with being blunt. This is an interesting perspective.
 
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Cope harder.

What's the next thing you're going to do in your 'deconstruction of media'? Call for more censorship? Ban all portrayals of relationships YOU deem 'abusive' or 'unhealthy'? Restrict artistic expression because it has an influence on people?

This is on the same level as 'video games cause violence'. Stfu bro. Take ownership of yourself. If YOU were so gullible that you got influenced by media into doing stupid shit, then blame yourself for being gullible.

"b-bu-but there could be movies that portray healthy relationships!''

There are. Go and watch them instead. BEGONE.
Why are you being an asshole Xi?
 

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I remember one time when my friend's mother (who was the erotic dancer) let us try on her clothing that she wore while being an escort. It was all so glamorous, probably like some of the scenes in Pretty Woman.
i'm full of quotes this morning. i really like dolly parton for telling the story of how starry-eyed she felt as a kid about this one woman who always wore The Most Beautiful Clothes and seemed to hang out on the kind-of outskirts of town. and when she asked around among her adults about this woman, she'd hear 'oh, she's just trash'. parton says her immediate reaction was 'that's what i want to be when i grow up then! i want to be trash!'.

what stands out to me from your story is individual temperament. i think the self is pretty inborn and immutable, and it's different for everybody. so knowing your personal self goes a really long way. it might have broken you but been far less of an issue to someone else of your own age. i have listened to so many stories that don't feel anymore like there has to be only one benchmark about that for everybody. things i don't blink at would shatter a different person, and vice versa.

i had similar though less-serious experience to yours, coming to canada at the age of fifteen. there's no question at all there were predators everywhere, or that i was completely stunned by culture/class shock for several years, among other things. i don't doubt i had "live bait" signs flashing all over me. i can look back and recite a litany of guys who tried various things, and if i'm honest i really can't give exclusive credit for my [essential] unscathedness to anybody. my inherent temperament was a significant factor; so was instilled idealism; so were my parents in some sense, i guess. and all of those factors were also influential in the supposedly-foolproof things that i DIDN'T do to repel them, as well. i didn't follow any prescribed or accredited formula, and luck is also a major factor.

i do think the idealism was an inoculator. you make a really good point there. whether it was actually viable (as opposed to just being a lucky stopgap while i got my street-smarts together) is something else.

@Roslyn, i guess my standing to even discuss 'preparedness' is hampered in part by the displacements and aberrations in my own story. i hear stories that are anchored in certain conditions and factors, and just don't relate.

nobody wants or has been willing yet to talk about the male version of i-can-change-them: the rescuer complex and how much trouble that can lead to. but it's a definite thing.
 

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I haven't read Rousseau and I'm not sure.
I definitely don't think burying things in abstraction is going to help you - but in honesty and sentimentality to St Mary's gardens:


But I can't help but feel like even my disagreement was solid and part of my reality--part of who I am. I couldn't say yes. Even if I wanted to.
"Even if I wanted to" sounds like you're leaving the door open to at least being conflicted about it even if you're not - I prefer ENFPs' inner corniness / sentimentality on that score over the INFPs' desire to step through it and burn - some scary, predatory eyes stare out of that darkness and they don't much fancy stepping outside into the light.

The yacht man asked me why and I tried to tell him, but the truth is I didn't know and I still don't know why not. I just wouldn't.
Answer seems obvious - but I'm guessing because you've not said any of those you haven't wanted to see how simple it is or it isn't so simple... to you?

Also--I wanted to know why? I asked him "why can't you just remember what I look like and go back to your yacht and masturbate alone?

And he said "it's not the same."
I'm sure imagination is never the same, but more specifically this and what guys like that get out of this?

I think there's a common theme to both the male and female (blurry categories as they may be you munchkins) sides.

A Desire To Be Absent

It's to do with the left temporal aspects of the neocortex as I recall (also interestingly opposite, totally correlated inversely with improvisational ability) - and the reason people do it, i.e:

1. Make themselves an "object".

2. Make the other an "object".

Is to remove the Agency from another party so they can lose self-awareness, self-consciousness - the sort of stammering, juddering interference you get on stage when you're suddenly aware how many are surveying you - you, they, all the consequences.

It's too much, for some. That's why the girl who can't cum unless she's switched off the screaming part of herself which is executive seeks out opportunities to be an "object" or "slave" with no Will of its own.

That's why the guy who knows his dick won't get hard if he has to worry about whether you're enjoying it or actually this is a good move for you prefers to masturbate in front of you - in either case, it's actively attempting to make sure self-consciousness doesn't emerge or interfere with a baser aspect of themselves - that's it, and it's pathetic for both sides, it shows a lack of self-mastery - if you leave that to someone else they'll do it for you too, under pretense.

So who was trying to change things? Was he trying to change me or was I trying to change him? I felt he was trying to change me and it was none of his business to. He should just go use his imagination like anyone else.
Yeah I mean on some level it might mean that, but I don't think it's trying to change you in a meaningful or insightful way - it's simply a side effect: By making you do it, or having it be transactional - it is making you object.

Objects you don't have to worry about, do you? He's not concerned about what the lamp next to the bed thinks of his dick.

You can change an object of course, but, it's an object - it's not like it's going to matter is it? They don't see it in any more informed way than that.

I should have lectured him on all the things he was privileged to and out of everything he's obsessed with affecting me by pulling out his penis in front of me. It's pathetic.
Hmm, privileges you were partaking in up to a point - is a lecture saving you from sins you cast at another's feet... I don't think so - if you were unconsciously on any level attracted out of his being Rich Yacht Man - you are likely the reason why he is and has tried to become Rich Yacht Man - lecturing doesn't save you or scrub that tarnish off - at all...

I Gots The Shotgun

You Gots The Briefcase...


...it's all in the game though right...

Own up to it or feel happy, content and settled about your choice, it's simple.


As for the romantic notion of being in an intimate relationship with a man, I think it's significant because they are also human and flawed, and so there is an acceptance of that, and a connection despite them, and maybe a loyalty in being similar in that way.
Sure - forgiveness of our faults and to be loved anyway is the tenderest aspect of it - one wishes some of those flaws were things people were willing to forgive in themselves sometimes - but that's not my job is it? Or yours - it's theirs.

But as for not having sex with that man--I can still leave and sit and watch the Puget Sound and the lights reflected, and the quivering night, and I can still be me. I don't have to feel like someone else. So it's really a lot less exciting than you describe, though it was fun to read.
Good old-fashioned authenticity, wish I knew how to do it properly!
 

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No, he is right. And he is actually being caring about my personal path. I needed to hear that. So thanks.
Nonsense, watch me go.

You are irritating and immature. You frustrate “us” and everything “we” represent.

Are you now obligated to me as well?
 

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I definitely don't think burying things in abstraction is going to help you - but in honesty and sentimentality to St Mary's gardens:




"Even if I wanted to" sounds like you're leaving the door open to at least being conflicted about it even if you're not - I prefer ENFPs' inner corniness / sentimentality on that score over the INFPs' desire to step through it and burn - some scary, predatory eyes stare out of that darkness and they don't much fancy stepping outside into the light.



Answer seems obvious - but I'm guessing because you've not said any of those you haven't wanted to see how simple it is or it isn't so simple... to you?



I'm sure imagination is never the same, but more specifically this and what guys like that get out of this?

I think there's a common theme to both the male and female (blurry categories as they may be you munchkins) sides.

A Desire To Be Absent

It's to do with the left temporal aspects of the neocortex as I recall (also interestingly opposite, totally correlated inversely with improvisational ability) - and the reason people do it, i.e:

1. Make themselves an "object".

2. Make the other an "object".

Is to remove the Agency from another party so they can lose self-awareness, self-consciousness - the sort of stammering, juddering interference you get on stage when you're suddenly aware how many are surveying you - you, they, all the consequences.

It's too much, for some. That's why the girl who can't cum unless she's switched off the screaming part of herself which is executive seeks out opportunities to be an "object" or "slave" with no Will of its own.

That's why the guy who knows his dick won't get hard if he has to worry about whether you're enjoying it or actually this is a good move for you prefers to masturbate in front of you - in either case, it's actively attempting to make sure self-consciousness doesn't emerge or interfere with a baser aspect of themselves - that's it, and it's pathetic for both sides, it shows a lack of self-mastery - if you leave that to someone else they'll do it for you too, under pretense.



Yeah I mean on some level it might mean that, but I don't think it's trying to change you in a meaningful or insightful way - it's simply a side effect: By making you do it, or having it be transactional - it is making you object.

Objects you don't have to worry about, do you? He's not concerned about what the lamp next to the bed thinks of his dick.

You can change an object of course, but, it's an object - it's not like it's going to matter is it? They don't see it in any more informed way than that.



Hmm, privileges you were partaking in up to a point - is a lecture saving you from sins you cast at another's feet... I don't think so - if you were unconsciously on any level attracted out of his being Rich Yacht Man - you are likely the reason why he is and has tried to become Rich Yacht Man - lecturing doesn't save you or scrub that tarnish off - at all...

I Gots The Shotgun

You Gots The Briefcase...


...it's all in the game though right...

Own up to it or feel happy, content and settled about your choice, it's simple.




Sure - forgiveness of our faults and to be loved anyway is the tenderest aspect of it - one wishes some of those flaws were things people were willing to forgive in themselves sometimes - but that's not my job is it? Or yours - it's theirs.



Good old-fashioned authenticity, wish I knew how to do it properly!
Well I felt sort of conflicted, in the moment, about whether letting him give me money so (in his words) I could "just sit there with my clothes on" and wouldn't have to do anything--he just wanted to masturbate, about whether that would involve me or not. About whether I could tell myself afterwards that I hadn't sold some kind of sexual transaction.

I mean, I definitely felt like it was his problem--he's the weirdo who can't masturbate in private like a normal human being. But I also felt like agreeing would somehow IDK send him the message I was consenting to some sexual activity with him, even if it was just me sitting there and him jerking off.

I was literally starving. I don't know how much he was willing to pay and to me it seems rational--why wouldn't I agree to that? I mean he wouldn't even touch me. I wouldn't even have to look at him--I could just look away and pretend he wasn't there.

But I felt like if I agreed HE would get what he wanted. He would get something from me.

I feel peaceful that I said no because it was amusing, and is amusing to think about. I enjoyed that even though he had everything anyone could need, I had something he wanted and couldn't have. And he never got it. So just making him unhappy was enough payment.

I felt angry at him for a long time, and the biggest reason I was angry is because I had things of value as a human being. I have a mind. I can do art. I have a personality. I have done good things for animals and stuff.

But I was angry because, I guess, that it was like he was trying to reduce me to an object. That he would pay some large amount of money so I could just sit there while he jacked off, but he wouldn't pay me for cleaning his stupid boat.

I guess that was the thing too--I had agreed to go look at his boat. I had agreed to that labor (not to clean it for sure but to consider it) and he had then changed what he wanted and tried to get me to agree to a totally different type of transaction.

He knew I needed the money. He had talked to me about how he had dogs of his own, and he said he might have some dog food he could give my dog.

So I think it made me happy to know that I had something he couldn't have, and that was consent for even something like having him do something that wouldn't have even been anything really. That still amuses me that with everything he couldn't have something. Also I'm glad he didn't rape me so he wasn't absolutely horrible though I was angry for a long time.

I actually did consider--there was one thing that I almost was interested in. He said he would take his yacht out with his girlfriend (who liked to do threesomes) and they would visit this beautiful island that was remote and close to the Canadian border I think.

I actually really wanted to go see the island--I also wanted to go out on the ocean. I like boats.

But then it's not safe, and as I told a homeless friend (who pretended to be pregnant to get more money) about it, she said that he was probably going to chop me up and dump me overboard--because no one would even know if I disappeared because I was a street kid. And she was right that he would probably never be found out and no one would even know what happened.

But I still felt resentful he had a boat and could go out to that island, and yet with everything he had he still wants something he can't have. So good for him--that's what he needs more than anything, to realize there are things he can't have just like there are so many things people like me couldn't have. I guess it sort of made it authentic as a human interaction. I don't think an object can tell you no. I did feel sorry for him a little too and ultimately I think the best possible outcome could have been my saying no for both of us (though imo I would have preferred he just give me all the money he was willing to pay for his poor choice, for my giving him a lesson on how he cannot have things.)

I am not dissatisfied with it--though some part of me wished I could show him a painting and ask him if he could paint that--to show him that I do have things he doesn't have and he can never buy with money. And that it's more than my sexuality. But I am alive and can do whatever with my life.

What I am dissatisfied with is that I believed that I was preserving something by saying no that would somehow contribute to some kind of intimate love relationship that was consensual, in the future. And I think that may have been pretty naive or misguided.

As I said to someone else, one of my friends ended up actually buying a house with the income she made from stripping and escort work. As I get older I feel more and more "meh" about the dreams I had of some kind of grand love story. I just want to oil paint so that people can see that part of myself, and perhaps as a way to prove--similar to how I wanted to prove to that rich yacht person I was more than an object. And I think the whole romance thing has been a distraction from that sometimes. Maybe it is all just chemicals, similar to how a bird will start laying eggs when the days are longer. So I guess I am disappointed that I could never view it that realistically. And perhaps I was wrong and really if I'd just become a tutor of the escort I could have painted more and done more of what I wanted in my life b/c that's what money allows.

But I don't really feel regretful. I just need to focus on going forward and finding some meaning out of life even if nothing is clear and I don't have the capacity to understand anyway. I mean I would have rather gone on that boat to see the island to do drawing or photograph it, or painting. I didn't want to have a threesome with people I don't even understand on a boat--I might not even like boats anymore after that, even if I didn't get chopped up and dumped overboard. At least now I still like boats and don't feel the need to pay 16 year olds to sit there while I do that or have threesomes in it or whatever. Money isn't everything.
 

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Well I felt sort of conflicted, in the moment, about whether letting him give me money so (in his words) I could "just sit there with my clothes on" and wouldn't have to do anything--he just wanted to masturbate, about whether that would involve me or not. About whether I could tell myself afterwards that I hadn't sold some kind of sexual transaction.

I mean, I definitely felt like it was his problem--he's the weirdo who can't masturbate in private like a normal human being. But I also felt like agreeing would somehow IDK send him the message I was consenting to some sexual activity with him, even if it was just me sitting there and him jerking off.

I was literally starving. I don't know how much he was willing to pay and to me it seems rational--why wouldn't I agree to that? I mean he wouldn't even touch me. I wouldn't even have to look at him--I could just look away and pretend he wasn't there.

But I felt like if I agreed HE would get what he wanted. He would get something from me.

I feel peaceful that I said no because it was amusing, and is amusing to think about. I enjoyed that even though he had everything anyone could need, I had something he wanted and couldn't have. And he never got it. So just making him unhappy was enough payment.

I felt angry at him for a long time, and the biggest reason I was angry is because I had things of value as a human being. I have a mind. I can do art. I have a personality. I have done good things for animals and stuff.

But I was angry because, I guess, that it was like he was trying to reduce me to an object. That he would pay some large amount of money so I could just sit there while he jacked off, but he wouldn't pay me for cleaning his stupid boat.

I guess that was the thing too--I had agreed to go look at his boat. I had agreed to that labor (not to clean it for sure but to consider it) and he had then changed what he wanted and tried to get me to agree to a totally different type of transaction.

He knew I needed the money. He had talked to me about how he had dogs of his own, and he said he might have some dog food he could give my dog.

So I think it made me happy to know that I had something he couldn't have, and that was consent for even something like having him do something that wouldn't have even been anything really. That still amuses me that with everything he couldn't have something. Also I'm glad he didn't rape me so he wasn't absolutely horrible though I was angry for a long time.

I actually did consider--there was one thing that I almost was interested in. He said he would take his yacht out with his girlfriend (who liked to do threesomes) and they would visit this beautiful island that was remote and close to the Canadian border I think.

I actually really wanted to go see the island--I also wanted to go out on the ocean. I like boats.

But then it's not safe, and as I told a homeless friend (who pretended to be pregnant to get more money) about it, she said that he was probably going to chop me up and dump me overboard--because no one would even know if I disappeared because I was a street kid. And she was right that he would probably never be found out and no one would even know what happened.

But I still felt resentful he had a boat and could go out to that island, and yet with everything he had he still wants something he can't have. So good for him--that's what he needs more than anything, to realize there are things he can't have just like there are so many things people like me couldn't have. I guess it sort of made it authentic as a human interaction. I don't think an object can tell you no. I did feel sorry for him a little too and ultimately I think the best possible outcome could have been my saying no for both of us (though imo I would have preferred he just give me all the money he was willing to pay for his poor choice, for my giving him a lesson on how he cannot have things.)

I am not dissatisfied with it--though some part of me wished I could show him a painting and ask him if he could paint that--to show him that I do have things he doesn't have and he can never buy with money. And that it's more than my sexuality. But I am alive and can do whatever with my life.

What I am dissatisfied with is that I believed that I was preserving something by saying no that would somehow contribute to some kind of intimate love relationship that was consensual, in the future. And I think that may have been pretty naive or misguided.

As I said to someone else, one of my friends ended up actually buying a house with the income she made from stripping and escort work. As I get older I feel more and more "meh" about the dreams I had of some kind of grand love story. I just want to oil paint so that people can see that part of myself, and perhaps as a way to prove--similar to how I wanted to prove to that rich yacht person I was more than an object. And I think the whole romance thing has been a distraction from that sometimes. Maybe it is all just chemicals, similar to how a bird will start laying eggs when the days are longer. So I guess I am disappointed that I could never view it that realistically. And perhaps I was wrong and really if I'd just become a tutor of the escort I could have painted more and done more of what I wanted in my life b/c that's what money allows.

But I don't really feel regretful. I just need to focus on going forward and finding some meaning out of life even if nothing is clear and I don't have the capacity to understand anyway. I mean I would have rather gone on that boat to see the island to do drawing or photograph it, or painting. I didn't want to have a threesome with people I don't even understand on a boat--I might not even like boats anymore after that, even if I didn't get chopped up and dumped overboard. At least now I still like boats and don't feel the need to pay 16 year olds to sit there while I do that or have threesomes in it or whatever. Money isn't everything.
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@Llyralen
@Kelly Kapowski

I will come back to this it's just - I have 350 other things waiting for me like a hairy rapist outside a bus depot - why don't you show me how you'd sort this
 
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@Llyralen
@Kelly Kapowski

I will come back to this it's just - I have 350 other things waiting for me like a hairy rapist outside a bus depot - why don't you show me how you'd sort this
lol

I'm just shooting the shit. You don't have to reply.

Honestly, I think it kind of helped me to talk about this and sort through this after all this time. I was a kid and I didn't really know how to process it at the time. Now I'm safely able to look back.

Actually, just talking about it makes me:

1) Glad I'm alive

2) Want to go see those islands up there (seriously been watching videos of Seattle since thinking back on this memory and I really like the Pacific Northwest--especially the artwork by the Native American tribes up there. There's something so amazing about the paintings of orcas and stuff--like they are alive and they are both terrifying and also so magical.)

3) Realize I am doing the right thing by painting--exactly what my 16 year old self would have wanted.

4) Also makes me remember some book I read about Emily Carr who explored the north while painting and how cool that would have been.

Actually, as much as it may have caused some weird questioning of my own identity or my value as a human being (in the eyes of others) at the time, now thinking back on it reinforces my own understanding of my identity and how I value myself. I can see why I wanted to experience those islands and especially the fish and chips place that I used to stare at--the fried fish looked so perfect like manna from heaven but I never could taste it (never did either), but also why I didn't think it'd be worth it agree to any of those transactions.

I feel a lot more peaceful about the whole thing after thinking about it more thoroughly and talking about it.
 

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lol

I'm just shooting the shit. You don't have to reply.

Honestly, I think it kind of helped me to talk about this and sort through this after all this time. I was a kid and I didn't really know how to process it at the time. Now I'm safely able to look back.

Actually, just talking about it makes me:

1) Glad I'm alive

2) Want to go see those islands up there (seriously been watching videos of Seattle since thinking back on this memory and I really like the Pacific Northwest--especially the artwork by the Native American tribes up there. There's something so amazing about the paintings of orcas and stuff--like they are alive and they are both terrifying and also so magical.)

3) Realize I am doing the right thing by painting--exactly what my 16 year old self would have wanted.

4) Also makes me remember some book I read about Emily Carr who explored the north while painting and how cool that would have been.

Actually, as much as it may have caused some weird questioning of my own identity or my value as a human being (in the eyes of others) at the time, now thinking back on it reinforces my own understanding of my identity and how I value myself. I can see why I wanted to experience those islands and especially the fish and chips place that I used to stare at--the fried fish looked so perfect like manna from heaven but I never could taste it (never did either), but also why I didn't think it'd be worth it agree to any of those transactions.

I feel a lot more peaceful about the whole thing after thinking about it more thoroughly and talking about it.
taps glasses: If you were going to make a statue which would last 8,500 years, whilst civilisations rise and fall and languages emerge and die into nothing - what would it be?
 

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There are many memes about the Disney movies we grew up with. How Ariel wants to run off with a man she just met, how Belle has Stockholm syndrome, and how Jasmine, ends up with a man who lied to her about his status. But, at some level, I'd think we can understand these are fantasy stories and are not necessarily meant to be a reflection of reality. I don't know too many young women who modeled their relationships after the Disney princess model. On the other hand, they are based in enduring archetypes that has been an appealing basis for stories to women for generations.

Then you get to the literature that came out when many people were teens: Twilight, then later on, 50 shades of gray. These are just the really famous examples, but I imagine there's a whole subgenre of novels like this. I mean the kind of male romantic figure being presented is nothing new, and goes all the way back to the 19th century, being dubbed as the "Byronic hero": moody, mysterious, super rich and/or powerful, and full of angst. This is an old trope. In high school, I read Jane Eyre, and I love it, but if I were to describe Jane Eyre it would be that a naive young woman false in love with a much older man who locked his wife in the attic for years. Seems a bit creepy, if you were to stop and really think about it. I don't think too many women would specifically seek that kind of relationship, but what of the dynamic between Jane and Rochester, the dialogue, the presentation of Rochester of a rather dark and brooding man who is transformed by love?

Of course, this isn't based on reality, so much it's based on a common female fantasy of seeing a man in the depths and transforming him into something better. It's a common girlfriend stereotype to say "I know he's rough, but I can change him." I mean, essentially that's what Beauty and the Beast is all about, really: the feminine transformation archetype, a very common feminine archetype. Also with Aladdin, you see that term, "the diamond in the rough."

I wonder, if, by using these common archtypes, if many books, films, etc. are presenting the idea of a relationship that is actually somewhat toxic, and in some instances, outright abusive, as something to pursue or healthy? I mean there's another thread about women being in relationships with convicts. It does make me wonder if the media presents to women an unrealistic standard to pursue when it comes to a successful relationship.
You think only "millennial women" want a fantasy mate? lol Have you ever heard of the incel and pua communities? Plenty of men seem to want to get into toxic relationships as well. This is honestly kind of a dumb topic.
 

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You think only "millennial women" want a fantasy mate? lol Have you ever heard of the incel and pua communities? Plenty of men seem to want to get into toxic relationships as well. This is honestly kind of a dumb topic.
A dumb topic because it's not an exclusively female phenonemon? Just because guys do, doesn't mean women don't. That doesn't seem logical call it dumb for that reason.
It's like saying "Hey, writing about women with eating disorders is dumb, because a lot of men have them too."
 
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A dumb topic because it's not an exclusively female phenonemon? Just because guys do, doesn't mean women don't. That doesn't seem logical call it dumb for that reason.
It's like saying "Hey, writing about women with eating disorders is dumb, because a lot of men have them too."
It's a dumb topic because you're focusing on a specific age range of women when both some men and women of every generation get into toxic relationships. Do you even know of the actual stories that those Disney princess movies are based off of? Go look some of them up to get a sense of how messed up relationships were back then. Disney making fantasy movies isn't a problem, because daughters will still have a father to explain what's okay and what isn't.
 

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taps glasses: If you were going to make a statue which would last 8,500 years, whilst civilisations rise and fall and languages emerge and die into nothing - what would it be?
A My Little Pony of course.

jk--but my first thought was probably a female figure--probably nude. I really like figurative artwork and the roman statues really held up well over time.

The only actual statue I've made that I was sort of happy with was peaceful Buddha. But my sculpture teacher (as much as I really didn't like most sculpture--only the plaster which is smoothed like clay) noted that there was a theme of religious iconography. But Buddhas and Virgin Mary's are also figurative as are the statues of Roman gods and goddesses.

I like this statue of Cupid and Psyche, but I could never carve marble. It's amazing how the rough and dirty act of chipping and breaking away at hard rock can produce such smooth and graceful forms. All the rock dust and the labor of mining and lifting a rock. That is really hard to imagine but it produced beautiful results.



The Birth of Venus by Botticelli is one of the most beautiful paintings of the human form and I imagine it'd still resonate with people in the future in different societies. But I don't know if it needs to be made into a statue. But it probably wouldn't do any harm if it were to survive 8,000 years.



This one is kind of pretty though. It reminds me of this huge statue that one of the people in the figure drawing group had made--It looked kind of like a bodhisattva though and female and sitting cross-legged in meditation. And huge. And sometimes the drawing group was held in his studio with the large in-process statue nearby, and people would swear sometimes it looked like she would look at you or move slightly, or that she was alive.
 

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But I felt like if I agreed HE would get what he wanted. He would get something from me.
i don't think i ever had to deal with such an overtly commercial confrontation myself. my experience has been more one of men trying to impose some more emotional form of transaction on me, which tends to be far less direct. but i have dealt with a whole lot of that, and i really relate to/agree with this statement from you.

i was thinking about this whole discussion today because i spent most of the afternoon futzing around with my car. it's parked on a public street and you have to disengage the entire front bumper to get at the back of the headlight assembly to switch out the bulbs. so, i mean, kind of obvious that i wasn't just dusting or vaccuming it.

your story came to my mind because this is exactly the sort of thing that - in my 20's and 30's - would have had random men veering out of their flight paths to offer me 'help'. in fact, i left my son's dad at age 27 and spent two or three years blowing off 'i'll teach you to drive' from the most random men - men who should have had no reason or business at all to stick their noses into the question of whether i got a license or not.

less extreme, less traumatizing, less dangerous and less insulting than what you went through. but i think it's the same kind of thing. there's a transaction embedded in there that i wanted no part in. the bargaining and arguments and all the rest were irrelevant. the guys i'm thinking of had a specific dynamic in mind; their offers were products of that dynamic, and i was not going to participate. it's fundamental.

[in the end it took me about a year to get my license, once i decided that i wanted to. and i basically learned how to drive by failing the road test repeatedly until the day when i didn't fail it. and i got both my headlights working today].


But I was angry because, I guess, that it was like he was trying to reduce me to an object. That he would pay some large amount of money so I could just sit there while he jacked off, but he wouldn't pay me for cleaning his stupid boat.
see, to me . . . this kidn of thing isn't exactly about an attempt on their part to do anything. the 'thing' has already been done; it's the attitude itself. the offer/transaction itself tells you everything that you need to know about their definition of you - if that makes sense. and the offer/transaction comes from the definition; it isn't the other way round. so i'm with you. the repudiation of that definition and the refusal to participate in it is visceral. being made to sit around negotiating about whether or not he gets to keep that attitude is new insult on top of the original one. damn straight he owed you for the time.
 

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Well I felt sort of conflicted, in the moment, about whether letting him give me money so (in his words) I could "just sit there with my clothes on" and wouldn't have to do anything--he just wanted to masturbate, about whether that would involve me or not. About whether I could tell myself afterwards that I hadn't sold some kind of sexual transaction.

I mean, I definitely felt like it was his problem--he's the weirdo who can't masturbate in private like a normal human being. But I also felt like agreeing would somehow IDK send him the message I was consenting to some sexual activity with him, even if it was just me sitting there and him jerking off.

I was literally starving. I don't know how much he was willing to pay and to me it seems rational--why wouldn't I agree to that? I mean he wouldn't even touch me. I wouldn't even have to look at him--I could just look away and pretend he wasn't there.

But I felt like if I agreed HE would get what he wanted. He would get something from me.

I feel peaceful that I said no because it was amusing, and is amusing to think about. I enjoyed that even though he had everything anyone could need, I had something he wanted and couldn't have. And he never got it. So just making him unhappy was enough payment.

I felt angry at him for a long time, and the biggest reason I was angry is because I had things of value as a human being. I have a mind. I can do art. I have a personality. I have done good things for animals and stuff.

But I was angry because, I guess, that it was like he was trying to reduce me to an object. That he would pay some large amount of money so I could just sit there while he jacked off, but he wouldn't pay me for cleaning his stupid boat.

I guess that was the thing too--I had agreed to go look at his boat. I had agreed to that labor (not to clean it for sure but to consider it) and he had then changed what he wanted and tried to get me to agree to a totally different type of transaction.

He knew I needed the money. He had talked to me about how he had dogs of his own, and he said he might have some dog food he could give my dog.

So I think it made me happy to know that I had something he couldn't have, and that was consent for even something like having him do something that wouldn't have even been anything really. That still amuses me that with everything he couldn't have something. Also I'm glad he didn't rape me so he wasn't absolutely horrible though I was angry for a long time.

I actually did consider--there was one thing that I almost was interested in. He said he would take his yacht out with his girlfriend (who liked to do threesomes) and they would visit this beautiful island that was remote and close to the Canadian border I think.

I actually really wanted to go see the island--I also wanted to go out on the ocean. I like boats.

But then it's not safe, and as I told a homeless friend (who pretended to be pregnant to get more money) about it, she said that he was probably going to chop me up and dump me overboard--because no one would even know if I disappeared because I was a street kid. And she was right that he would probably never be found out and no one would even know what happened.

But I still felt resentful he had a boat and could go out to that island, and yet with everything he had he still wants something he can't have. So good for him--that's what he needs more than anything, to realize there are things he can't have just like there are so many things people like me couldn't have. I guess it sort of made it authentic as a human interaction. I don't think an object can tell you no. I did feel sorry for him a little too and ultimately I think the best possible outcome could have been my saying no for both of us (though imo I would have preferred he just give me all the money he was willing to pay for his poor choice, for my giving him a lesson on how he cannot have things.)

I am not dissatisfied with it--though some part of me wished I could show him a painting and ask him if he could paint that--to show him that I do have things he doesn't have and he can never buy with money. And that it's more than my sexuality. But I am alive and can do whatever with my life.

What I am dissatisfied with is that I believed that I was preserving something by saying no that would somehow contribute to some kind of intimate love relationship that was consensual, in the future. And I think that may have been pretty naive or misguided.

As I said to someone else, one of my friends ended up actually buying a house with the income she made from stripping and escort work. As I get older I feel more and more "meh" about the dreams I had of some kind of grand love story. I just want to oil paint so that people can see that part of myself, and perhaps as a way to prove--similar to how I wanted to prove to that rich yacht person I was more than an object. And I think the whole romance thing has been a distraction from that sometimes. Maybe it is all just chemicals, similar to how a bird will start laying eggs when the days are longer. So I guess I am disappointed that I could never view it that realistically. And perhaps I was wrong and really if I'd just become a tutor of the escort I could have painted more and done more of what I wanted in my life b/c that's what money allows.

But I don't really feel regretful. I just need to focus on going forward and finding some meaning out of life even if nothing is clear and I don't have the capacity to understand anyway. I mean I would have rather gone on that boat to see the island to do drawing or photograph it, or painting. I didn't want to have a threesome with people I don't even understand on a boat--I might not even like boats anymore after that, even if I didn't get chopped up and dumped overboard. At least now I still like boats and don't feel the need to pay 16 year olds to sit there while I do that or have threesomes in it or whatever. Money isn't everything.
I have only read this post, so please forgive me if I’m missing information. I’m not sure how old you are now, but you mention 16yo you. And that you were starving & something about a dog needing food. Let me say first that I am so sorry you were in this position as a child, I cannot imagine. I hope things have improved now & food is no longer a worry for you!

In regards to your experience with this gentleman, I don’t quite know what to say. I know how I think I’d have responded, and it is exactly as you did. I’m a prideful person. However, I don’t think one can really know unless they are actually in your shoes, with the same circumstances & experiences.

It’s easy to understand both sides. Hunger isn’t something most Americans have truly experienced. I wouldn’t blame anyone for doing what they need to do to put food in their stomach. On the other hand, I don’t think it’s something I could do. In my brain, I’d starve to death before allowing someone to exert their money & power over me like that. Like you, I’d also wonder what his motivation is. It would def feel like a power/control thing. It puts you in a humiliating position. Screw that. Along the lines of people that enjoy flashing. I was at a sleepover once & there was a man parked in his car outside masturbating. We clearly saw him outside the window & he didn’t stop. Didn’t drive away until a parent went out to confront him. I always wondered what drives a human to do that? There has to be some joy in making another person squirm. Feel uncomfortable. Does it make them feel powerful? I don’t know, I’m sure there’s a lot of info out there on the psychology behind it. Maybe I’ll go google that now.

Giving over control/taking control sexually with a spouse in a loving relationship is very different than something like this where it’s a stranger. Though I guess he at least asked. Didn’t force it on you, so there’s that. Makes it maybe less about control & more about humiliating you. Though, ironically, I’d think he’d be the one humiliated. Maybe you should have done it & just laughed at him the whole time. Then take his money. I guess people are in to that too (feeling humiliated) though, so maybe that was his kink? 🤷‍♀️

SO IN CONCLUSION I have nothing of value to add I guess baha, sorry. I should have read through this thread before answering. I’m not even sure what the topic is, I just saw the notif & responded. I’ll go back & read the thread when I have a moment. But right now, it sounds to me like you responded in an admirable way. Suck iiiiit, person with money & power. 🎤 You can’t. Always get. What you waaaaaant🎵 Though I guess one could reason that he could (and probably did/had prior) just go & find someone else willing, because there will always be someone willing. But I’d be proud of myself were I you & stand on that hill of pride. Who cares if this weasel of a man doesn’t know all the value you have as a human. His loss. He leads a sad life if people are just something to be bought.
 

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I wonder, if, by using these common archtypes, if many books, films, etc. are presenting the idea of a relationship that is actually somewhat toxic, and in some instances, outright abusive, as something to pursue or healthy? I mean there's another thread about women being in relationships with convicts. It does make me wonder if the media presents to women an unrealistic standard to pursue when it comes to a successful relationship.
Yes, they are absolutely pushing unrealistic standards for relationships and they are popular because marketing, biology, technology, history, politics, etc. It's way too complicated to discuss within one response. I will say however, that just because something is popular, does not mean it is right or wrong or that it is even popular because people want it that way. There are many factors.

My advice would be to consider these factors and think how they might effect the question you pose.
 
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