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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I posted this earlier today in the INFJ forum, but on the recommendation of member Songs unsung, I've decided to repost it here, as well. If you know how to spot an ENTP in INFJ clothing, as Songs unsung put it, I'd really appreciate your input!

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"Hey everyone,

I recently read a few things about ENTPs that threw me for a loop. The biggest one is that ENTPs are merciless debaters. In the past, I've had quite a few friends accuse me of "being great at arguing, but always arguing without a point." I wasn't sure what they meant about the "without a point" part, because I consider having fun just as valid a point as any, but they were certainly right - I've always been GREAT at arguing. And from what I've read about INFJs, most INFJs can't stand that sort of conflict. There are times in which I can't stand that sort of conflict, but those times are few and far between. In all honesty, I just LOVE playing devil's advocate.

Another thing is dwelling on the past when stressed. My memory is pretty hit-or-miss. It seems like I have either a great memory or a bad memory, depending on the situation, and never in-between. I know that INFJs lack Si, and yet at the same time they have trouble being in the moment. I have always had trouble living in the moment, but after reflection I think that has a lot to do with embarrassing or humiliating moments from the past that I just cannot seem to let go. My mind always goes back to those moments. I also know that ENTPs have inferior Si as opposed to inferior Se of INFJs, so I'm going to have to do some more exploring as far as that's concerned.

At the same time, I'm sure that I prefer to use Ni over Ne. I CAN come up with a thousand possibilities, but when it comes down to it, I'll take the one RIGHT answer over a thousand possibilities every single time. I've had more of those Ni-characteristic "eureka" moments over the years than I could possibly count. And every time it's mind-blowing. At the moment, I'm writing a philosophical work - Perhaps "pamphlet" is the right term - in the same vein as Plato's The Republic. The inspiration came to me in the form of one of those "eureka" moments. I think.

I know for a FACT that I am an Fe - Ti user. Whichever one is auxiliary or tertiary I haven't given too much thought to. I always thought that I've been an INFJ with an Ni-Ti loop bent, but who knows? Perhaps I'm wrong.

Anyone have experience with this particular line of thinking? I'd love to find some clarity here, as I feel it would help me to become truly healthy as an individual. Am I an ENTP with special Ni powers, or am I some kind of arrogant, argumentative INFJ?

Thanks,

Craig

P.S. - Be as harsh and direct as you want in your responses - I'm kind of freaking out and would appreciate the closure."
 

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No idea. Maybe. You could always just hang out here and 'try it on'. Maybe answer threads and see if you relate to what entps have been saying.
 

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Well. Quite clearly you are a human.

Thats a good start to be sure!


In your post you elude to different states of mind.

My recommendation to everyone who is trying to ascertain type is
to be sure and take the MBTI test thingie in all different mental
and emotional states. Multiple times. Correlate the results.

It is their criteria. Not a persons perception that makes the type.
Its not how we feel or think we are it is how the questions work
and determine type based on their preset stuffs.

Anyhow. If for some miraculous reason you get a 50/50 INFJ/ENTP split results over
a few dozen test over different mental/emotional states? Well. Then we can get all choosy.
 

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I posted this earlier today in the INFJ forum, but on the recommendation of member Songs unsung, I've decided to repost it here, as well. If you know how to spot an ENTP in INFJ clothing, as Songs unsung put it, I'd really appreciate your input!

------

"Hey everyone,

I recently read a few things about ENTPs that threw me for a loop. The biggest one is that ENTPs are merciless debaters. In the past, I've had quite a few friends accuse me of "being great at arguing, but always arguing without a point." I wasn't sure what they meant about the "without a point" part, because I consider having fun just as valid a point as any, but they were certainly right - I've always been GREAT at arguing. And from what I've read about INFJs, most INFJs can't stand that sort of conflict. There are times in which I can't stand that sort of conflict, but those times are few and far between. In all honesty, I just LOVE playing devil's advocate.

Another thing is dwelling on the past when stressed. My memory is pretty hit-or-miss. It seems like I have either a great memory or a bad memory, depending on the situation, and never in-between. I know that INFJs lack Si, and yet at the same time they have trouble being in the moment. I have always had trouble living in the moment, but after reflection I think that has a lot to do with embarrassing or humiliating moments from the past that I just cannot seem to let go. My mind always goes back to those moments. I also know that ENTPs have inferior Si as opposed to inferior Se of INFJs, so I'm going to have to do some more exploring as far as that's concerned.

At the same time, I'm sure that I prefer to use Ni over Ne. I CAN come up with a thousand possibilities, but when it comes down to it, I'll take the one RIGHT answer over a thousand possibilities every single time. I've had more of those Ni-characteristic "eureka" moments over the years than I could possibly count. And every time it's mind-blowing. At the moment, I'm writing a philosophical work - Perhaps "pamphlet" is the right term - in the same vein as Plato's The Republic. The inspiration came to me in the form of one of those "eureka" moments. I think.

I know for a FACT that I am an Fe - Ti user. Whichever one is auxiliary or tertiary I haven't given too much thought to. I always thought that I've been an INFJ with an Ni-Ti loop bent, but who knows? Perhaps I'm wrong.

Anyone have experience with this particular line of thinking? I'd love to find some clarity here, as I feel it would help me to become truly healthy as an individual. Am I an ENTP with special Ni powers, or am I some kind of arrogant, argumentative INFJ?

Thanks,

Craig

P.S. - Be as harsh and direct as you want in your responses - I'm kind of freaking out and would appreciate the closure."
It is a big myth that ENTPs are defined by being debaters. I actually find some other types can be bigger debaters (xNFPs tend to debate when they feel strongly about something, xNTJs tend to debate to tell you that you are wrong and show their superiority, xSTJs tend to argue when they feel they are 100% right about something) the key is how we debate that defines us. What is very common with ENTPs is debating a side that we do not feel strongly for just to get the other side to question their side and help us understand why they believe what they do. I would say I rarely am debating to prove my point but am debating to make the other person question their own. That said, my INTJ dad (a Ni-Te user) doesn't like personal conflict but will debate a point especially when he sees the other person's side doesn't make much sense or has little basis.

Si coming out when stressed does not surprise me for an INFJ. Si for you is a subconscious function and usually comes out in unhealthy situations. Fi comes out in me when I am emotionally stressed and because it is a very undeveloped function, it is not pretty when it does.

Si for me is not unhealthy since it is in my conscious stack. It is much less about focusing on the past in the 4th slot but for data retention/organization and recollection. Si in me comes out when I am trying to remember a solution I tried before or need to memorize something important. My Ne is much too high to let the past overtake my present and future.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
It is a big myth that ENTPs are defined by being debaters. I actually find some other types can be bigger debaters (xNFPs tend to debate when they feel strongly about something, xNTJs tend to debate to tell you that you are wrong and show their superiority, xSTJs tend to argue when they feel they are 100% right about something) the key is how we debate that defines us. What is very common with ENTPs is debating a side that we do not feel strongly for just to get the other side to question their side and help us understand why they believe what they do. I would say I rarely am debating to prove my point but am debating to make the other person question their own. That said, my INTJ dad (a Ni-Te user) doesn't like personal conflict but will debate a point especially when he sees the other person's side doesn't make much sense or has little basis.

Si coming out when stressed does not surprise me for an INFJ. Si for you is a subconscious function and usually comes out in unhealthy situations. Fi comes out in me when I am emotionally stressed and because it is a very undeveloped function, it is not pretty when it does.

Si for me is not unhealthy since it is in my conscious stack. It is much less about focusing on the past in the 4th slot but for data retention/organization and recollection. Si in me comes out when I am trying to remember a solution I tried before or need to memorize something important. My Ne is much too high to let the past overtake my present and future.
Wow, thank you for that! Your point on Si makes a lot of sense. Every time I feel myself obsessively dwelling on the past, it makes me miserable and saps my energy, which could mean exactly what you're saying - It's unhealthy. There's still a lot of grey area to this that I'm slowly exploring, so I'm far from a definitive answer, but thanks for helping me regardless!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well. Quite clearly you are a human.

Thats a good start to be sure!


In your post you elude to different states of mind.

My recommendation to everyone who is trying to ascertain type is
to be sure and take the MBTI test thingie in all different mental
and emotional states. Multiple times. Correlate the results.

It is their criteria. Not a persons perception that makes the type.
Its not how we feel or think we are it is how the questions work
and determine type based on their preset stuffs.

Anyhow. If for some miraculous reason you get a 50/50 INFJ/ENTP split results over
a few dozen test over different mental/emotional states? Well. Then we can get all choosy.
Thanks for that, that's a brilliant idea! Will definitely do that.
 

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It's a mistake to think that Si = thinking about the past. Everyone thinks about the past and remember facts and have memories we return to time and again.

Cognitive functions describes variations in thinking style, not the content being thought. Si is a perceiving function and therefore subconscious. It's not "remembering" (though that is a tool of Si), but rather the tendency to accrete a pre-verbal, personalized sense of "how the world is" from personal experience. It's a visceral sense of "this is known/true/right/correct", or not, that helps with navigating the world, sorting information stream for the judgment functions to kick in and determine next steps.

It is actually very similar to Ni, a sense of "this is right/correct/the way things are" that is visceral and just as difficult to articulate right off the bat. Granted, since it is comprised of people's experience /past understanding /learned knowledge, Si is easier to eventually unpack and be explained.

In short, your examples do not automatically indicate Si.

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I don't like, or have any feelings about debating or being a devil's advocate. Rather, I endure an instant, almost irresistible urge to present an alternative stance in face of any statement I find either too fuzzy or black-or-white.

Liking debate does not bar you from being INFJ. INFJs have Ti in the tertiary where it's the "have fun with" function. This is why so many INFJ love to delve deeply into various pools of knowledge, analyze and pick ideas apart, but it's not what they use to navigate life.

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ENTP and INFJ both use Fe, but not at the same weight. Fe is our have-fun function, so we play with it, push boundaries with it, use it to modify the harshness of Ti, and there is an on/off quality to our warmth. I've never seen any Fe-dom or -aux tread as hard as we do on people's boundaries, even when they are being intense or angry.

You are giving me quite weighty Fe vibes here ;) I'll hazard that there's no need to panic. You are probably an INFJ.
 
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I didn't read a sh*t but i guess you are searching for some attention.

Anyway you have to be honest 100 percent while doing test. Answer to question not by thinking who you are but, look deeper and answer question right even if u dont like it. First time when i did it i was ENTJ, but that year i always was mad, arrogant. So 2 years later i did again than i was ENTP, couple month later i didnt had what to do so i did again i felt like i wasnt honest before 100 percent, so anyway i got ENTP again, and 2 months ago i did again and i was ENTP again. So yea boy ayayayayayaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
I didnt read what i writted here so if it makes sence good for me.

yes i know bad english.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
It's a mistake to think that Si = thinking about the past. Everyone thinks about the past and remember facts and have memories we return to time and again.

Cognitive functions describes variations in thinking style, not the content being thought. Si is a perceiving function and therefore subconscious. It's not "remembering" (though that is a tool of Si), but rather the tendency to accrete a pre-verbal, personalized sense of "how the world is" from personal experience. It's a visceral sense of "this is known/true/right/correct", or not, that helps with navigating the world, sorting information stream for the judgment functions to kick in and determine next steps.

It is actually very similar to Ni, a sense of "this is right/correct/the way things are" that is visceral and just as difficult to articulate right off the bat. Granted, since it is comprised of people's experience /past understanding /learned knowledge, Si is easier to eventually unpack and be explained.

In short, your examples do not automatically indicate Si.

---

I don't like, or have any feelings about debating or being a devil's advocate. Rather, I endure an instant, almost irresistible urge to present an alternative stance in face of any statement I find either too fuzzy or black-or-white.

Liking debate does not bar you from being INFJ. INFJs have Ti in the tertiary where it's the "have fun with" function. This is why so many INFJ love to delve deeply into various pools of knowledge, analyze and pick ideas apart, but it's not what they use to navigate life.

---

ENTP and INFJ both use Fe, but not at the same weight. Fe is our have-fun function, so we play with it, push boundaries with it, use it to modify the harshness of Ti, and there is an on/off quality to our warmth. I've never seen any Fe-dom or -aux tread as hard as we do on people's boundaries, even when they are being intense or angry.

You are giving me quite weighty Fe vibes here ;) I'll hazard that there's no need to panic. You are probably an INFJ.
Thank you so much for responding so thoughtfully. :) And also for sharing your thoughts on Si! That was illuminating and answered a lot of the questions I had bouncing around around in the back of the old noggin. The deciding factor is that I'm definitely an Ni-dom who uses Ti, so I'm definitely an INFJ.

When I started this thread, I thought I may have been confusing my Ni with the Ne-Ti dynamic that ENTPs use. The reason for that is probably that, through an incredible amount of work, I have gotten quite good at articulating my intuitions over the years, even though it used to be a real struggle for me.
 
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