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Under extreme stress, fatigue or illness, the ENTP's shadow may appear - a negative form of ISFJ. Example characteristics are:

o being pedantic about unimportant details
o doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
o expressing emotions in an intensive and uncontrolled way
o being very sensitive to criticism

The shadow is part of the unconscious that is often visible to others, onto whom the shadow is projected. The ENTP may therefore readily see these faults in others without recognising it in him/her self.
 

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Yes, the shadow type would be the INTJ.

Have I acted like an INTJ?

I don't know but looking back at my most stressed times, there were months and years where I just went to school and returned directly home. I didn't interact with anyone because I didn't want to talk to anybody. I didn't trust anybody because I have been hurt and betrayed by many. There was a lot of bitter perspectives and bad habits I have acquired because of this time. Some are so extreme that I just recently (within 2 years) started to dispel those views that haunted me since the year 2001.

About 5-6 years ago, I took the Enneagram test and typed to be a 1. Some correlate that with the ISTJ and/or INTJ. I recently took the test without any desire to type myself there but to look at the consistency. As a shocking result, I typed 7w8. I was shocked because I adamantly claimed to be 1 because I was so worked up with morals and what is right or wrong. Now, I just create my moral system. (As a side note, I don't depend on the enneagram very much because it seems too broad)

The stress I deal with now is incomparable to the ones I dealt with. I now deal with self-improvement, learning new things, networking, and meeting new people. In the past, I dealt with "Why do I have to go to school?," misanthropy, suspicion, self-hatred, calculating,and devotion to hermitage. I can't even compare the two at all but maturity level also would probably play a factor determining what the stress would be.

One thing is, my current stressors does not swing me back to "acting" like an INTJ because I learned to manage stress so I never see that part of me anymore. I don't think it is the true form of the INTJ because the INTJ's in their forum seem critical but open minded and happy.

I don't think my type will change much anymore. The worst I think it could even become is the switch from ENTP to INTP, vice-versa. I reflect back towards my childhood days and realized the things I used to do were pretty mischievous and unacceptable. I use that as a projection because children tend to act without caring for rules, manners, and feelings for others. In the same way, if there weren't punishable laws, I'd be doing the same things today but with greater magnitude.

I will admit the stress has made me into a very strong person (at least I believe so) and I think every type and person need to experience stress to improve, especially ENTPs, because their "I don't give a shit about anything and I do whatever I want" will cost them later in life.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
There was a lot of bitter perspectives and bad habits I have acquired because of this time. Some are so extreme that I just recently (within 2 years) started to dispel those views that haunted me since.
What type of view and perspectives could be so haunting and were they inaccurate?
 

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It would be interesting to actually discuss the differences between both our "in the grip" type and our shadow type.

With our in the grip type we would start to rely on our weaker functions as opposed to our stronger ones which would have us relying on the same functions as an ISFJ but we'd be underdeveloped in both which would leave us completely out of balance.

ISFJ = Si Fe Ti Ne

We would still probably try to lead with our perception which would cause us to rely mostly on Si but that would be severely underdeveloped in comparison to our other functions....We'd rely on Fe secondarily which would be more developed that Si but still not enough to lead us completely in the right direction....To observers we'd probably appear much more Fe than anything else....but there would be some kind of underlying thinking pattern or behavior that was a result of Si....

Our in-the-grip functions sound like a huge mess for us...I can't really figure out how it would play out behavior wise though so someone please help me out here...

As for our shadow functions they'd be that of an INTJ

INTJ = Ni Te Fi Se

I can't fully understand how this one might play out. With us using our focusing all of our functions in an entirely different way but maintaining the order of reliance things might get problematic for us. We'd appear completely different to everyone else. I think the energy cost to even use these functions to their fullest capacity is really high so we'd probably only use them in a narrow fashion and end up appearing like the life was sucked out of us....hmmm

The only one that I see and might be able to understand is FE turning into Fi....us feeling defeated and going "I need to stop focusing on everyone else and start focusing on myself."

Anyone have anything to add? This has sparked my interest...
 

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I'm usually pretty good being objective about myself. When stressed I don't find that at all easy, perhaps because I have lost my grip on Ti. But since I have lost it, I don't know how to interpret anything else.:crazy:
 

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This article kind of combines the two, it shows how the shadow ISFJ functions reacts in an ENTP. From reading it I can see how an ENTP could be mistaken for a INTJ under stress but I really believe that is just a surface observation stemming from the skewed interactions of Ne Ti Fe Si. Under stress I start thinking I'm going crazy, that this or that leads to me going bat shit insane, being alone and isolated for the rest of my life. The article also explains the ENTP emptiness as a Si Ne reaction, Si - I'm alone currently, Ne that's it everywhere else I go I will be alone, even in the circus or the jungle I'll always be alone, people just won't understand me, even surrounded I'll be mentally alone.

I'm sure you can draw many more conclusions from that article, if let Ne at it.

This is another that list's ENTP as ISFJ under stress, and there is many more describing the same stress symptoms for ENTP. If you think about it INTJ fits the behavior of a ENTP in some situations, I can see a Si - Ne reactions spawning Ni like results, and combined with the fixation, obsession and lack of creative ideas, INTJ would cover the surface behavior of an ENTP struggling under stress. I can't see new functions raising out of the murky, deep, dark, depths of the unconscious (Si is hard enough to use as it is) to become dominate in times of stress, not saying it can't happen, but I'd think a screwy interaction between the functions we already touch is much more probable.
Like baking certain cakes or certain recipes when cooking even if you use the right ingredients, if you don't mix them in the right order you won't get the right result. It can turn into something almost unrecognizable compared to the typical result if switch the mixing order around.
 

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Based on my personal experienced I am of the school of thought that shadow mode seems to correspond to inversion of functions but their relative order strives to keep same. My own shadow mode seems to resemble that of ENxP. I do not think that the inferior function is able to become dominant one that easily. Inferior function is described as one that serves as constant embarrassment for its bearer. As such I've noticed INTPs overreact for example when they are chided for lacking social tact, ENTPs lamenting their lack of attention to physical details, and INFJs having trouble with performing sudden physical movement. I just don't see how your Achilles heel function can readily become your dominant one any time you become stressed out in life. But then stress isn't all the same. One can be just slightly stressed or be under life-threatening kind of stress. As such I don't think there is just one set shadow mode.
 

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Quin Sabe brought up an interesting point...but it's hard for me though to decipher between whether or not it is our main functions interacting negatively or our shadows. I will note though that I don't think of it as "new functions" rising out of nowhere. From my understanding we have Ni Te Fi and Se already but they are usually used in a narrow fashion and beyond our own grasp at times especially keeping in mind that the energy cost to use them to their fullest capacity is high.

I see the order as relating to our natural reliance on them and see these in the grip and shadow modes as us changing our order of reliance in times of stress or change. Fully relying on them though seems to turn them negative since we are ill equipped to lead with them.

To me when we're "in the grip" (ISFJ) it seems to be us being vulnerable but without the need to protect ourselves and when we're "in shadow mode" (INTJ) it appears to be us being severely depressed or severely hurt in some way that is so bad that we do everything and anything to protect ourselves. That need alone could cause us to use our shadow functions because "the old way of doing things just isn't working".

This is kind of how I view it after thinking about it:

In The Grip [ISFJ = Si Fe Ti Ne]

For this one i'll use the example of when two of my really close friends moved. We had just begun to grow close when moved and I was tired of relationships with people changing after we grew close. I had just experienced the same exact thing happening a year earlier where two friends move so I became lost and discontent for a week or so with the main attitude of being "in the grip" lasting for about a day.

Si= At that moment I saw I was alone and I saw this same situation happen in the past where i've had relationships with good friends fall off when changes in their life took place. Unlike Ni there were no possibilities it was just what I was sensing in the moment. Ne told me everything would be fine especially since two of my other friends who I recently was growing closer to would be coming back from vacation.But my senses were my guide and I couldn't shake the mood.

Fe= I needed to reach out to other people at that time. I needed to know that harmony would return to my environment. My friends moving created disharmony and I was trying to find what they offered me in my older relationships, basically trying to fix that disharmony.

Ti= Probably played a role in telling me that my behaviors and thinking was inconsistent with the usual me (which could mean it was also interacting with Si to some extent).

Ne= Played a role in telling me that there were still many things that could happed in the future and interacted with Si occasionally to tell me that i'm always meeting new people so this just opens up the door for me to build on current friendships and find new ones.

So I theorize that in that moment I was forced to rely on my two weakest functions because the situation that happened was negative and related to both...so that's why I view in the grip in the way that I do.


Shadow[/B] [INTJ = Ni Te Fi Se]

This to me sounds like a SEVERE depression for an ENTP. I can't say that i've been completely 100 percent overtaken by these but I could say that i've come close. So since I don't think i've fully experienced this I won't use a direct example but i'll take bits and pieces from my own experience and tie them with what I think might happen when being fully under this frame of mind.

Ni= Unlike Si sensory information isn't the only thing used to come to a negative conclusion and possibilities come into play causing us to think irrationally. We can see a trend or pattern in our lives and see the possible doomsday situation that could lead to it and do everything in our power to try to stop it. ALSO i'll note: We don't rely on Ti anymore to try to pick the possibility that is consistent with reality.

Te= Could lead to use compulsively trying to create organization in our environment. Could be why when depressed I sometimes HAVE to write my ideas down and make sense of them and plan them out for fear that i'll forget them or won't be as inspired and won't figure out what to do with them in the future. This is all B.S. because when i'm calm I realize that if it's important i'll remember it. Also cleaning my room makes me feel more at peace in times of stress.

Fi= We focus on other peoples feelings so much that in these times we think solely about our own trying to figure out how to remedy the negative ones. In this time we may appear selfish or less spontaneous.

Se= We counter Si with this one. Si used to show us the things that made us comfortable but those same things don't work. Whenever i'm depressed music doesn't always make me happy (unless it's brand new) and alot of other things that normally do and think about it that's depression! Normal things that bring us joy don't. So Se comes out to try to find new things or connect to the things that might still have the ability to take the edge off of our negative mood. Drugs, Alcohol, Sex and Food tend to still have a positive affect no matter what mood anyone is in so we might resort to these or try to find new things related to our senses that make us feel better.

So I theorize that in this moment we may be forced in some way to change our normal way of coping with things because they don't work for us. We become stuck and try to figure a way out. Being that these functions bare a high energy cost we use them narrowly even when we become reliant on them so they don't really solve anything but we may feel forced to rely on them simply because they are the coping skills we haven't tried yet and our old ones aren't working for whatever reason.

It really could be that it is just our normal functions reacting in different ways as Quin Sabe says but I just view it differently.

I consider our functions to vary in strength due to our original set reliance on them (the more you use something the more you develop skill in it). In moments of In the grip or shadow or whatever you want to call either we change our reliance but the strength of and energy cost to use our functions remain the same.

So in in the grip we rely on our functions as if we are ISFJ and in shadow mode we rely on our functions as if were INTJ. But due to our poor development and high energy cost we get negative results.

So that's pretty much why my perspective is my perspective....Any thoughts on this would be appreciated i'm very interested in learning more about these modes of thought.
 

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o being pedantic about unimportant details
o doing things to excess - e.g.: eating, drinking or exercising
o expressing emotions in an intensive and uncontrolled way
o being very sensitive to criticism
I've never acted in any of these ways.

Most likely because "unimportant", "uncontrolled" and "to excess" aren't real qualities.
 

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Quin Sabe brought up an interesting point...but it's hard for me though to decipher between whether or not it is our main functions interacting negatively or our shadows. I will note though that I don't think of it as "new functions" rising out of nowhere. From my understanding we have Ni Te Fi and Se already but they are usually used in a narrow fashion and beyond our own grasp at times especially keeping in mind that the energy cost to use them to their fullest capacity is high.

I see the order as relating to our natural reliance on them and see these in the grip and shadow modes as us changing our order of reliance in times of stress or change. Fully relying on them though seems to turn them negative since we are ill equipped to lead with them.

To me when we're "in the grip" (ISFJ) it seems to be us being vulnerable but without the need to protect ourselves and when we're "in shadow mode" (INTJ) it appears to be us being severely depressed or severely hurt in some way that is so bad that we do everything and anything to protect ourselves. That need alone could cause us to use our shadow functions because "the old way of doing things just isn't working".

This is kind of how I view it after thinking about it:

In The Grip [ISFJ = Si Fe Ti Ne]

For this one i'll use the example of when two of my really close friends moved. We had just begun to grow close when moved and I was tired of relationships with people changing after we grew close. I had just experienced the same exact thing happening a year earlier where two friends move so I became lost and discontent for a week or so with the main attitude of being "in the grip" lasting for about a day.

Si= At that moment I saw I was alone and I saw this same situation happen in the past where i've had relationships with good friends fall off when changes in their life took place. Unlike Ni there were no possibilities it was just what I was sensing in the moment. Ne told me everything would be fine especially since two of my other friends who I recently was growing closer to would be coming back from vacation.But my senses were my guide and I couldn't shake the mood.

Fe= I needed to reach out to other people at that time. I needed to know that harmony would return to my environment. My friends moving created disharmony and I was trying to find what they offered me in my older relationships, basically trying to fix that disharmony.

Ti= Probably played a role in telling me that my behaviors and thinking was inconsistent with the usual me (which could mean it was also interacting with Si to some extent).

Ne= Played a role in telling me that there were still many things that could happed in the future and interacted with Si occasionally to tell me that i'm always meeting new people so this just opens up the door for me to build on current friendships and find new ones.

So I theorize that in that moment I was forced to rely on my two weakest functions because the situation that happened was negative and related to both...so that's why I view in the grip in the way that I do.


Shadow[/B] [INTJ = Ni Te Fi Se]

This to me sounds like a SEVERE depression for an ENTP. I can't say that i've been completely 100 percent overtaken by these but I could say that i've come close. So since I don't think i've fully experienced this I won't use a direct example but i'll take bits and pieces from my own experience and tie them with what I think might happen when being fully under this frame of mind.

Ni= Unlike Si sensory information isn't the only thing used to come to a negative conclusion and possibilities come into play causing us to think irrationally. We can see a trend or pattern in our lives and see the possible doomsday situation that could lead to it and do everything in our power to try to stop it. ALSO i'll note: We don't rely on Ti anymore to try to pick the possibility that is consistent with reality.

Te= Could lead to use compulsively trying to create organization in our environment. Could be why when depressed I sometimes HAVE to write my ideas down and make sense of them and plan them out for fear that i'll forget them or won't be as inspired and won't figure out what to do with them in the future. This is all B.S. because when i'm calm I realize that if it's important i'll remember it. Also cleaning my room makes me feel more at peace in times of stress.

Fi= We focus on other peoples feelings so much that in these times we think solely about our own trying to figure out how to remedy the negative ones. In this time we may appear selfish or less spontaneous.

Se= We counter Si with this one. Si used to show us the things that made us comfortable but those same things don't work. Whenever i'm depressed music doesn't always make me happy (unless it's brand new) and alot of other things that normally do and think about it that's depression! Normal things that bring us joy don't. So Se comes out to try to find new things or connect to the things that might still have the ability to take the edge off of our negative mood. Drugs, Alcohol, Sex and Food tend to still have a positive affect no matter what mood anyone is in so we might resort to these or try to find new things related to our senses that make us feel better.

So I theorize that in this moment we may be forced in some way to change our normal way of coping with things because they don't work for us. We become stuck and try to figure a way out. Being that these functions bare a high energy cost we use them narrowly even when we become reliant on them so they don't really solve anything but we may feel forced to rely on them simply because they are the coping skills we haven't tried yet and our old ones aren't working for whatever reason.

It really could be that it is just our normal functions reacting in different ways as Quin Sabe says but I just view it differently.

I consider our functions to vary in strength due to our original set reliance on them (the more you use something the more you develop skill in it). In moments of In the grip or shadow or whatever you want to call either we change our reliance but the strength of and energy cost to use our functions remain the same.

So in in the grip we rely on our functions as if we are ISFJ and in shadow mode we rely on our functions as if were INTJ. But due to our poor development and high energy cost we get negative results.

So that's pretty much why my perspective is my perspective....Any thoughts on this would be appreciated i'm very interested in learning more about these modes of thought.


During life phases of extreme stress, yes the INTJ comes out full force.

But the description is correct, I'm not very productive/ quality of my work is strained in that mode.

Also, no one likes being around me in that mode.

Repetitive, pedantic, obsessive, focused only on my internal feelings, quiet, repeat certain behaviors such as overexercise, overeating, or avoiding sleep to engage in repetitive behaviors.

Yeah, this all happens.

It sucks though!
 

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I acted that way when I was depressed. I was in a pretty extreme situation, caught between suicidal depression, total social isolation, an abusive/neglectful family, a psychologically manipulative boyfriend who raped me, and a debilitating chronic illness that prevented me from leaving my bed for months at a time. I'm normally a very optimistic person, and even through all this I tried to keep high hopes for the future and work toward my goals. But when my environment and circumstances finally beat me down, I turned into a shell of my prior self. I could relate to everything the OP said. It was impossible to correctly type me until my situation improved. Now I'm an ENTP again, and use my functions in a normal and healthy way.
 

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Aye, it was a dark time. Deep in depression, couldn't motivate myself out of bed, slept a TON, suicidal, etc.

Shit sucked. I much prefer ENTP.
 

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Going back and forth between "in the grip" and "the shadow".
The description of Ray Mabry in post 1 is a very good description of how the present and past couple of years have been.
I HATE IT! (Especially the times when thinking whether hanging or cyanide would be the better choice)
 

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I've always read that, like most people have said, under extreme stress or illness your functions invert, i.e. your extroverted functions become introverted and visa versa. The part I find interesting about this is that under this theory NFs remain NFs and NTs remain NTs, but SJs become SPs and SPs become SJs.

As far as reactions to stress, I have two modes of operation. My preferred mode is one of finesse and strategy. Go with the flow, ride the waves, and roll with the punches. I kind of go one up on that though. I usually predict the flow and utilize tactical maneuvers to direct the flow where I want it to go. Unfortunately finesse isn't always an option. Sometimes people or situations act as a brick wall and completely disrupt the flow. On those occasions I tend to go into wrecking ball mode. The more things get in my way, the more forceful I get. The harder I'm pushed around, the harder I tend to push back. It could definitely be seen as going from normal, happy, carefree ENTP mode to [email protected](^ this $#*!, things are getting done and I don't care what gets burned in my wake INTJ mode. It's like I go from Ne seeing where I'm going, Ti picking the best way to get there, Fe checking to make sure I don't run over too many people on the way, and Si double checking to make sure I didn't overlook anything to Ni seeing exactly what's coming, Te deciding what needs to go where, Fi making sure everything has a place, and Se making it happen. I've more or less learned to control my "kick @$$ and take names" mode and utilize it as necessary, but occasionally things will just get to me and I'll snap then the only way to stop is to either run the course or completely shut down. Unfortunately I've been kinda shut down for quite a while now, which is I think what led me to PerC in the first place.
 

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Aye, it was a dark time. Deep in depression, couldn't motivate myself out of bed, slept a TON, suicidal, etc.
Shit sucked. I much prefer ENTP.
Same here, for almost a whole year... Medication and all. But got through it, helped me allot. But what really got me through it was changing some beliefs I had considered sacred.
I guess some strolls in the desert must be done alone.

Ps Thread Irrelevant :. I just drank a Chinese energy drink and I think i can hear electricity...
 

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In The Grip [ISFJ = Si Fe Ti Ne]

For this one i'll use the example of when two of my really close friends moved. We had just begun to grow close when moved and I was tired of relationships with people changing after we grew close. I had just experienced the same exact thing happening a year earlier where two friends move so I became lost and discontent for a week or so with the main attitude of being "in the grip" lasting for about a day.

Si= At that moment I saw I was alone and I saw this same situation happen in the past where i've had relationships with good friends fall off when changes in their life took place. Unlike Ni there were no possibilities it was just what I was sensing in the moment. Ne told me everything would be fine especially since two of my other friends who I recently was growing closer to would be coming back from vacation.But my senses were my guide and I couldn't shake the mood.

Fe= I needed to reach out to other people at that time. I needed to know that harmony would return to my environment. My friends moving created disharmony and I was trying to find what they offered me in my older relationships, basically trying to fix that disharmony.

Ti= Probably played a role in telling me that my behaviors and thinking was inconsistent with the usual me (which could mean it was also interacting with Si to some extent).

Ne= Played a role in telling me that there were still many things that could happed in the future and interacted with Si occasionally to tell me that i'm always meeting new people so this just opens up the door for me to build on current friendships and find new ones.

So I theorize that in that moment I was forced to rely on my two weakest functions because the situation that happened was negative and related to both...so that's why I view in the grip in the way that I do.
This happened to me not too long ago. I NEVER want to ever see this side ever again. I don't know how ISFJ's do it haha
 
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