Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 139 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
OK so I've been thinking about this for a while. And by a while I mean basically my entire life.

When I discovered Mbti and was typed as INTJ it was really reassuring for me to have some sort of community label describe me succinctly in terms other than FEMALE, WOMAN, or GIRL, because so many female stereotypes seem to align with sensing and feeling types I can have trouble relating to. It was also a bit depressing to see that there are so few INTJ women out there. It did make sense as to why I found it hard to relate to many of my peers though. I guess I am wondering how MBTI has maybe helped people think about their own gender identities, and whether or not it has challenged or affirmed them.

With a lot of Transgender and LGBT issues hitting the news lately, I have been thinking about how, to some extent, I really relate on a very personal level when I read about transgendered people's experiences even though I'm not transgendered. Though I am physically a woman in her mid-twenties, I've never felt that I fit into any of the roles and stereotypes that are typically female. But I also definitely don't feel male. I've only dated men. I often feel like I have no gender or am just kind of gender fluid. I used to joke that I was a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body, because I dated guys but I also sometimes just felt like I was one of the guys.

---My story (Scroll to the bottom if you wanna just skip it!)---

I recently started thinking about gender roles in terms of my friends. They say people often look for friends who are a lot like themselves, whether for affirmation or whatever. I have a small circle of friends that consists of men and women. I seem to have no problem getting along with either women or men, but the people I tend to relate with most are women who have more "masculine gendered" traits: being socially laid back, straightforward, not caught up in gossip and cattiness, etc. and men who have more "feminine gendered" traits: not super macho testosterone sportsfest dudebros, calm, understanding, good language skills, etc.

I thought at first that this was just the fact that I liked smart, funny, chilled out people of all varieties. Back in high school I just thought EVERYONE liked people like this because duh, they were cool and awesome, right? I thought gender stereotypes were just stupid lying constructs and didn't apply to anyone.

But, when I look at my peers I see that many of them seem to cluster in these hypermasculine or hyperfeminine respective herds and I see where all the old ass stereotypes of "men are pigs" and "women are ditzy" come from. The stereotypes I avoid seem to completely make sense if you look at some of the behaviour of the women and men in these highly gendered circles. I have found that there are groups of women who apparently regularly do things like "go shoe shopping together" (gasp!) and guys who revel in "watching the game" and "scoring chicks" (lol?). These are just circles in which I have never moved.

My preference for people who are a bit, for lack of any other term, gender neutral seems to also extend to my sexual preferences. I have never really discussed it with anyone other than my boyfriend, but I'm a little bit bisexual. I say a little bit, because it's hard to explain. First of all it's relatively rare that I'm attracted to ANY person, but if I am it is most often a man. However, I am also infrequently attracted to women who have a certain androgynous quality. It seems they're rare. The only celebrity examples I can think of are that there is something about Olivia Wilde that turns me on. Also Laura Prepon. I have no idea what exactly it is. They're still definitely feminine but they have a sort of straightforward, no-nonsense, friendly quality to them. They look healthy. They have lower pitched voices and seem... competent. I can count on one hand the times I have ever come across a woman that seems to fit whatever messed up unconscious criteria my brain has decided it's looking for.

Likewise, I am not into guys who are really big and buff and manly. That turns me off. I am attracted to slim, athletic (like runner/biker/swimmer body) or a bit squishy "dad bod" is fine too on the right guy (some guys just look like they're supposed to be a bit heavy :)). Neanderthal men with giant jaws and biceps rrreally turn me off. I also kinda have a thing for Asian men. I hate loud obnoxious men, misogynists, men who think they're always right, and men who tell me what to do with my life. If a guy is kinda quiet at first and has high emotional intelligence I'm in.

I would totally date a transgendered person, either male-female or female-male. Their transgenderedness does not alienate me or turn me off. On the contrary, I think I'd relate pretty well.

I was a tomboy as a kid. Played soccer at recess with the boys instead of skipping with the girls once I worked up the courage to do it. I get excited about computers, technology, and video games. My boyfriend asks me for help when he has trouble with his laptop. I have replaced numerous parts of my computer. I'm into 3D art and graphic design, film, animation, new media--fields dominated by men. But I was always a very good reader writer, areas women typically excel in. I always score high on visual spatial reasoning, but I am truly terrible at algebra, calculus, and math that isn't straight up geometry. When navigating in an unfamiliar place I have no sense of direction at all and pretty much entirely use landmarks to orient myself and give directions, which is supposedly a typically female way of navigating.

There are lots of typically feminine things I like. I enjoy and wear makeup almost every day but minimal and natural looking. I love cooking and between me and my boyfriend I do WAY more of it. I love cute animals and other cute shit. I dress in women's clothing but it's the most gender neutral wardrobe with a lot of black, grey, blue, greens and I tend to cover up. I wear a lot of jeans and T shirts with a simple smart jacket over top. I wear heels maybe twice in a year. I think I look strange in a dress or skirt and feel self conscious of my body when I wear one to an event like a wedding but I have yet to find a pant suit that doesn't look awful. On days off I might wear leggings and a sweatshirt or men's hoodie. Since I was like 10 I've had either a bob or a pixie cut and prefer to keep my hair somewhere above my shoulders, otherwise it starts to feel like it's just "not me". I like fashion but have a strong preference for really androgynous or masculine clothes, watches, etc. I don't wear jewellery.

I have been with my current BF for eight years. Neither of us cares about marriage and we don't want kids. I have never had much (any?) maternal instinct. I feel protective of children in a general sense but no desire to have my own. If I did have kids I would hope that my partner or maybe a nanny could deal with most of the childcare. I have always been the more career-focused and goal-oriented of the two of us.


---

Why do so many people seem to only understand sex and gender in binary terms, and see anything else as a 'rejection' of some kind of established norm? Nothing about who I am or what I do or wear feels like a rejection. It feels like accepting how I am. The 'default settings' me, if you will. It's just me being authentic about what I like and what I don't, and how I like to operate.

I can't imagine how hard it must be for people who are transgendered, just trying to make things feel normal for themselves and being judged sometimes incredibly harshly for it. I have not experienced that particular struggle. Instead, I feel like I'm floating around in the middle of a completely wacko binary, unable to find any terminology that defines my experience.

This has been long and I apologize, but yeah -- it's hard to articulate the nuances of my experiences with gender.

Are there any others out there who feel genderless or gender-lost or like they are just cannot relate and have no connection to the predominant gender stereotypes? If so, maybe you could tell me a bit about your thoughts and what your type is? I'm interested to know if other people have had similar experiences with sex and gender.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,279 Posts
But, when I look at my peers I see that many of them seem to cluster in these hypermasculine or hyperfeminine respective herds...I have found that there are groups of women who apparently regularly do things like "go shoe shopping together" (gasp!) and guys who revel in "watching the game" and "scoring chicks" (lol?). These are just circles in which I have never moved.
I never felt gender-fluid, but I neither felt overly gender conscious so I can partially relate to this (maybe general introversion have also something to do with it).
 

·
Registered
INTP
Joined
·
5,117 Posts
A lot of people don't feel like they suit their gender.

The thing is, the real issue is not to do with gender at all, it's to do with social stereotypes.

I despise the fact that some people say they don't 'feel' male or female. Biology is what it is, your anatomy is what it it. Sure, some people have transsexuality issues where they truly feel like they should be taking dick instead of receiving it, and vice versa, but this overall idea of not 'feeling' like you suit your gender is just stupid.

I'm a male. I am 100% a male. That doesn't make me a jock or a douche or whatever other male attributes the agender people seem to constantly rail against. I'm just a male human. And females are females.

The only glaring issue is gender roles. If a male wants to do whatever it is that females normally do, he doesn't have to suddenly declare that he isn't a male. Of course he's a male, he's got a dick, grows facial hair and has a gigantic adam's apple! His real issue is that he doesn't 'fit in' with the most common idea of his gender, so he feels left out and decides to just go berserk and shout to the world, "I'M NOT MALE!", which to me is just a pointless hissy fit.

Live and let live! Stop with the compartmentalising, labelling and all that other shite.

EDIT: Here's another thing to consider. This whole gender fluid agender shite is a MALE construct anyway! Consider that for eons we've had the concept of a tom-boy - a girl who acts a lot more boyish than is 'normal'. And nobody really cares. Nobody ever has. It's just a tomboy. Yet now we have this wave of mutiny over guys who claim they don't feel male enough. By shouting 'AGENDER' from the rooftops, all they're doing is saying they're ashamed of the usual 'girly' label they get given by the male dominant society they live in. In reality they shouldn't care. How is it the tomboys of society got on for so long without having to make a big fuss about it? Because they're women! Yet now some MEN are getting uppity about their gender identity and they think the whole world wants to know?!

Oops sorry this became a rant. Oh well. Blame the cunt I see on facebook every day, writing about his utter hatred for men, and his self-declaration of gender neutrality coupled with a seething holier-than-thou attitude over everything if you call him out on any of it (e.g. changing his name to Ava (a girl's name but that's ok, he decided it's gender neutral because he likes it..!?). He's pushed me to this. I mean... It has.They have. Whatever fucking pronoun he fucking expects of me. I don't know, I don't care, I'm sick of it all.
 

·
Registered
ENTJ; 8w7; Persian C
Joined
·
9,448 Posts
This is a tad difficult for me to compute - while I must relate on paragraph no. 1, 6 - I do not equate this to (re: Not fitting in, therefore, I am a man or ''have no gender'') - I refuse to let it compromise my gender (re: fluidity). Thus, I just settle for a weird or 'abnormal' woman. I am comfortable with this.

I do not feel ''neutral'' in a sense, that if I sat in a crowd of women, I would appear to be a man; aesthetically speaking, as I am chapstick, moderately low lipstick feminine most of the time, thus there really isn't a sense of ambiguity first impression - as for the persona (re: INTJ characteristics / behaviors ---> Out of touch emotional states, introversion, loners, et al).

Typically, much of my notions may be masculine in nature, as I quite enjoy sitting with my legs open + tend to render a rather stereotypical masculine mental state - I do believe, much of my cognition (re: information processing, et al), perhaps, would render male-like in nature, that is, if a person entered inside my head - it would probably be difficult to distinguish my gender.

Simply put, it is my ''persona'' (re: personality, behaviors, et al) that renders me stereotypically masculine - however, I still believe I do have an innate feminine aura that does not compromise (total) womanhood in a sense I feel ''neutral''; and I also do believe, this can be noticed even with Tomboyish women in varying degrees.

To fix this, I just remain a one woman army; (i.e.. I do not involve, engage, nor identify) with other women, rather just identify as a woman - thus this gives me immunity in the ape-think (re: grouping gender stereotype) mentalities. As, I usually get frustrated when ''women this, women that'' - are chatted about + openly discussed, because I never fit into anything they say, thus, take slight offense, as I am a woman myself. However, I do feel %100 woman, and that is pretty much all there is.

Alas, I will seal this with -->> Floral summer sundresses used as a substitute for the original grey sweatpant in times of leisure (re: informal events) fucking suck <<-- and be done with it.

Here are more Fem-robotic women on the same boat --> http://personalitycafe.com/debate-forum/701354-emotional-women.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,427 Posts
I can partially relate . Growing up I was always confused when watching tv shows or reading books bc there would be tomboy characters or girly girls but nothing in between . I hang out with both gender and blend in quite well - but I was never a guys guy - or girls girl . Attraction wise I prefer men but I've had crushes on girls who looks like guys .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kore and Nitrogen

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
First, thanks for your reply, HAL.

Alright, I'll address a couple of your points that stand out to me.

the real issue is not to do with gender at all, it's to do with social stereotypes.
...
but this overall idea of not 'feeling' like you suit your gender is just stupid.
...
I'm a male. I am 100% a male. That doesn't make me a jock or a douche or whatever other male attributes the agender people seem to constantly rail against. I'm just a male human.
Sounds like we feel may actually feel similarly but are using different terminology to describe our experience. What is gender if not a binary of accumulated social stereotype? How can something be about social stereotypes but not about gender? They are entwined. When you say you don't fit stereotypes of maleness but still feel male, don't you ever ask yourself what 'maleness' is and why these stereotypes exist?

I despise the fact that some people say they don't 'feel' male or female. Biology is what it is, your anatomy is what it it.
My understanding is that we have the terms "sex" and "gender" to articulate the differences between biological sex and the behaviours and social roles we have in society (gender). Sex refers to male or female, while gender refers to masculine or feminine. Therefore, as you know, you can be male and do something feminine or feel feminine and vice-versa. What I'm discussing is not feeling like I fit into either gender and not that I don't fit into my biological sexual body. That's why I said I wasn't transgendered. I don't really get what's worth 'despising' about any of this?

Sure, some people have transsexuality issues where they truly feel like they should be taking dick instead of receiving it, and vice versa, but this overall idea of not 'feeling' like you suit your gender is just stupid.
I'm kinda lost here. What exactly is the difference between "taking" and "receiving" a dick? I would think that describes the same thing.

How is it the tomboys of society got on for so long without having to make a big fuss about it?
I don't think everyone who is interested in analyzing sex and gender is making "a big fuss" about it. Some people are just interested in it as a social phenomenon. The so-called tomboys of society hardly just "got on". From Wikipedia: Tomboy, according to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED), "has been connected with connotations of rudeness and impropriety" throughout its use. It is only now that it has become more socially acceptable to discuss sex and gender that tomboys can even hope to express their thoughts on fitting into gender roles and expectations without being judged for it, and even then there is judgment and emotionally charged backlash and misunderstanding every time it gets brought up.

Oops sorry this became a rant. Oh well. Blame the cunt I see on facebook every day, writing about his utter hatred for men, and his self-declaration of gender neutrality coupled with a seething holier-than-thou attitude over everything if you call him out on any of it (e.g. changing his name to Ava (a girl's name but that's ok, he decided it's gender neutral because he likes it..!?). He's pushed me to this. I mean... It has.They have. Whatever fucking pronoun he fucking expects of me. I don't know, I don't care, I'm sick of it all.
OK, my interpretation here is that you feel threatened or annoyed by people "shouting AGENDER" from the roof tops. Why do you think that is? Why is it so important to you that everyone else think of sex and gender exactly the way you do? I'm not trying to ask those questions in a snarky or rhetorical way. I am genuinely interested in the answers. It sounds like it must matter a lot to you, because it's made you so frustrated.

I'm taking it that this last of your response just doesn't apply to me personally, because I never called myself agender and I'm not really looking for a label to define me, just trying to figure out how to belong and fit in with people based on my own experience of the world. It's also not something I discuss regularly. If your facebook friend's posts get under your skin, you can easily block them without even defriending them. Do you ever try to discuss the issue with them?

I find the people who constantly harp on an issue IRL or on FB tend to also be the most extreme and most narrow-minded about that issue. This might apply to your friend/acquaintance on Facebook who is bashing men and posting a steady stream of attention-seeking posts. I understand how seeing the same person repeat the same thing over and over again without ever seeming to learn or grow or really take in another perspective can get grating. Maybe your negative response is more to the medium and not the message.

It always amazes me that sex and gender topics can rile people up so much. I have very little angst about it all. I'm not on a mission, here. I am just a curious person interested in how others think and feel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,545 Posts
There's a vast difference between being agender/genderfluid and simply not identifying with gender roles. Gender identity is a LOT more than purely gender roles.

I know agender people who experience bodily dysphoria upon simply thinking about the fact that they have sexual characteristics that clearly earmark them as being one specific gender. Agender people who were born male and hate the fact that their strong jaw gives them away, for example. Or people who bind their breasts and try to hide the fact that they have rounded hips, because they simply do not want to be recognized as female.

I'm not saying people cannot identify as these things without experiencing dysphoria, and I don't wanna invalidate your experiences, OP. But you gotta think carefully about what group you identify with, because you could be identifying with a group you probably do not come close to understanding the depth of experiences of.

I mean, no offense to you, but saying you relate to trans people because of things like liking androgynous people and wearing jeans instead of skirts... really? I'm an assertive, ambitious person with a thing for slender, philosophically inclined men, and I rarely ever wear dresses or skirts. I would never DREAM of saying I even come close to relating to trans people. They experience a LOT of shit (severe dysphoria, discrimination, death threats, sexual/professional/social/familial rejection, lack of medical support) that I, as a cis woman, would never experience. If we're in a position of privilege we gotta step back before relating to the experiences of struggling groups.

The very definitions of agender and genderfluid are far deeper than simply not conforming to gender roles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,510 Posts
OK so I've been thinking about this for a while. And by a while I mean basically my entire life.

When I discovered Mbti and was typed as INTJ it was really reassuring for me to have some sort of community label describe me succinctly in terms other than FEMALE, WOMAN, or GIRL, because so many female stereotypes seem to align with sensing and feeling types I can have trouble relating to. It was also a bit depressing to see that there are so few INTJ women out there. It did make sense as to why I found it hard to relate to many of my peers though. I guess I am wondering how MBTI has maybe helped people think about their own gender identities, and whether or not it has challenged or affirmed them.
So you identify as a FEMALE, WOMAN or GIRL, but you don't identify with the gender roles assigned to this category. Big difference. That you identify as such actually becomes quite clear on your profile because you still happily clicked on that female icon to show people who you are. That's an outright contradiction right there.

With a lot of Transgender and LGBT issues hitting the news lately, I have been thinking about how, to some extent, I really relate on a very personal level when I read about transgendered people's experiences even though I'm not transgendered. Though I am physically a woman in her mid-twenties, I've never felt that I fit into any of the roles and stereotypes that are typically female. But I also definitely don't feel male. I've only dated men. I often feel like I have no gender or am just kind of gender fluid. I used to joke that I was a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body, because I dated guys but I also sometimes just felt like I was one of the guys.
Uhm, no. You don't relate to transgender; you just think you do because you don't relate with stereotype female gender roles and you identify a bit more strongly with male ones.

---My story (Scroll to the bottom if you wanna just skip it!)---

I recently started thinking about gender roles in terms of my friends. They say people often look for friends who are a lot like themselves, whether for affirmation or whatever. I have a small circle of friends that consists of men and women. I seem to have no problem getting along with either women or men, but the people I tend to relate with most are women who have more "masculine gendered" traits: being socially laid back, straightforward, not caught up in gossip and cattiness, etc. and men who have more "feminine gendered" traits: not super macho testosterone sportsfest dudebros, calm, understanding, good language skills, etc.

I thought at first that this was just the fact that I liked smart, funny, chilled out people of all varieties. Back in high school I just thought EVERYONE liked people like this because duh, they were cool and awesome, right? I thought gender stereotypes were just stupid lying constructs and didn't apply to anyone.

But, when I look at my peers I see that many of them seem to cluster in these hypermasculine or hyperfeminine respective herds and I see where all the old ass stereotypes of "men are pigs" and "women are ditzy" come from. The stereotypes I avoid seem to completely make sense if you look at some of the behaviour of the women and men in these highly gendered circles. I have found that there are groups of women who apparently regularly do things like "go shoe shopping together" (gasp!) and guys who revel in "watching the game" and "scoring chicks" (lol?). These are just circles in which I have never moved.

My preference for people who are a bit, for lack of any other term, gender neutral seems to also extend to my sexual preferences. I have never really discussed it with anyone other than my boyfriend, but I'm a little bit bisexual. I say a little bit, because it's hard to explain. First of all it's relatively rare that I'm attracted to ANY person, but if I am it is most often a man. However, I am also infrequently attracted to women who have a certain androgynous quality. It seems they're rare. The only celebrity examples I can think of are that there is something about Olivia Wilde that turns me on. Also Laura Prepon. I have no idea what exactly it is. They're still definitely feminine but they have a sort of straightforward, no-nonsense, friendly quality to them. They look healthy. They have lower pitched voices and seem... competent. I can count on one hand the times I have ever come across a woman that seems to fit whatever messed up unconscious criteria my brain has decided it's looking for.

Likewise, I am not into guys who are really big and buff and manly. That turns me off. I am attracted to slim, athletic (like runner/biker/swimmer body) or a bit squishy "dad bod" is fine too on the right guy (some guys just look like they're supposed to be a bit heavy :)). Neanderthal men with giant jaws and biceps rrreally turn me off. I also kinda have a thing for Asian men. I hate loud obnoxious men, misogynists, men who think they're always right, and men who tell me what to do with my life. If a guy is kinda quiet at first and has high emotional intelligence I'm in.

I would totally date a transgendered person, either male-female or female-male. Their transgenderedness does not alienate me or turn me off. On the contrary, I think I'd relate pretty well.

I was a tomboy as a kid. Played soccer at recess with the boys instead of skipping with the girls once I worked up the courage to do it. I get excited about computers, technology, and video games. My boyfriend asks me for help when he has trouble with his laptop. I have replaced numerous parts of my computer. I'm into 3D art and graphic design, film, animation, new media--fields dominated by men. But I was always a very good reader writer, areas women typically excel in. I always score high on visual spatial reasoning, but I am truly terrible at algebra, calculus, and math that isn't straight up geometry. When navigating in an unfamiliar place I have no sense of direction at all and pretty much entirely use landmarks to orient myself and give directions, which is supposedly a typically female way of navigating.

There are lots of typically feminine things I like. I enjoy and wear makeup almost every day but minimal and natural looking. I love cooking and between me and my boyfriend I do WAY more of it. I love cute animals and other cute shit. I dress in women's clothing but it's the most gender neutral wardrobe with a lot of black, grey, blue, greens and I tend to cover up. I wear a lot of jeans and T shirts with a simple smart jacket over top. I wear heels maybe twice in a year. I think I look strange in a dress or skirt and feel self conscious of my body when I wear one to an event like a wedding but I have yet to find a pant suit that doesn't look awful. On days off I might wear leggings and a sweatshirt or men's hoodie. Since I was like 10 I've had either a bob or a pixie cut and prefer to keep my hair somewhere above my shoulders, otherwise it starts to feel like it's just "not me". I like fashion but have a strong preference for really androgynous or masculine clothes, watches, etc. I don't wear jewellery.

I have been with my current BF for eight years. Neither of us cares about marriage and we don't want kids. I have never had much (any?) maternal instinct. I feel protective of children in a general sense but no desire to have my own. If I did have kids I would hope that my partner or maybe a nanny could deal with most of the childcare. I have always been the more career-focused and goal-oriented of the two of us.
And you know what? None of this actually deals with your gender identity except you stating that you do not identify with female gender roles and you prefer to be around people whose gender expressions are less pronounced and stereotype. However, it does not at any ponit actually sugest you feel uncomfortable with identifying as or being a woman, but you feel uncomfortable expressing it in certain ways you attribute to female-ness.
---

Why do so many people seem to only understand sex and gender in binary terms, and see anything else as a 'rejection' of some kind of established norm? Nothing about who I am or what I do or wear feels like a rejection. It feels like accepting how I am. The 'default settings' me, if you will. It's just me being authentic about what I like and what I don't, and how I like to operate.

I can't imagine how hard it must be for people who are transgendered, just trying to make things feel normal for themselves and being judged sometimes incredibly harshly for it. I have not experienced that particular struggle. Instead, I feel like I'm floating around in the middle of a completely wacko binary, unable to find any terminology that defines my experience.
Why do so many people confuse gender identity with gender expressions? They are not the same. A person can don a specific expression but identify in a way that is non-binary. You are as binary in your think here, as you accuse others to be. You do not relate to the gender binary so your expressions and identity are not congruent, therein lies your problem; to a transgender person though, their identity is not congruent. I for example see no complaints from you expressing gender dysphoria such as feeling discomfort over your body; I see no dysphoria expressing that you are a female/woman/girl and being identified as such by the public at large. If you were truly someone within the transgender umbrella and if you were truly someone who is genderfluid, you wouldn't just have an idea of feeling like you're "one of the boys", no, on forms where filling out one's gender is required, for example, you'd feel compelled to fill in both options, none or either one depending on your whims and who you felt you were at that moment in time.

This has been long and I apologize, but yeah -- it's hard to articulate the nuances of my experiences with gender.

Are there any others out there who feel genderless or gender-lost or like they are just cannot relate and have no connection to the predominant gender stereotypes? If so, maybe you could tell me a bit about your thoughts and what your type is? I'm interested to know if other people have had similar experiences with sex and gender.
Your bolded statement summarizes this entire thread; your issue isn't that you think you have no gender, but you have issues reconciling your expressions with the gender stereotypes you think you should live up to. Big difference. A trans person can be binary or non-binary. You can be a femme FTM for example, and therefore in every way retain a female gender role but still identify and feel as if you are a man. I don't see you even being close to expressing such complexity in your experiences, nor do you seem to understand that the transgender spectrum is wider than the gender binary transsexuals that you see in media represent. Utilizing binary transgender people as the standard is enforcing the binary.
 

·
Registered
INTP
Joined
·
5,117 Posts
First, thanks for your reply, HAL.

Alright, I'll address a couple of your points that stand out to me.



Sounds like we feel may actually feel similarly but are using different terminology to describe our experience. What is gender if not a binary of accumulated social stereotype? How can something be about social stereotypes but not about gender? They are entwined. When you say you don't fit stereotypes of maleness but still feel male, don't you ever ask yourself what 'maleness' is and why these stereotypes exist?


My understanding is that we have the terms "sex" and "gender" to articulate the differences between biological sex and the behaviours and social roles we have in society (gender). Sex refers to male or female, while gender refers to masculine or feminine. Therefore, as you know, you can be male and do something feminine or feel feminine and vice-versa. What I'm discussing is not feeling like I fit into either gender and not that I don't fit into my biological sexual body. That's why I said I wasn't transgendered. I don't really get what's worth 'despising' about any of this?


I'm kinda lost here. What exactly is the difference between "taking" and "receiving" a dick? I would think that describes the same thing.


I don't think everyone who is interested in analyzing sex and gender is making "a big fuss" about it. Some people are just interested in it as a social phenomenon. The so-called tomboys of society hardly just "got on". From Wikipedia: Tomboy, according to the Oxford English Dictionary (OED), "has been connected with connotations of rudeness and impropriety" throughout its use. It is only now that it has become more socially acceptable to discuss sex and gender that tomboys can even hope to express their thoughts on fitting into gender roles and expectations without being judged for it, and even then there is judgment and emotionally charged backlash and misunderstanding every time it gets brought up.


OK, my interpretation here is that you feel threatened or annoyed by people "shouting AGENDER" from the roof tops. Why do you think that is? Why is it so important to you that everyone else think of sex and gender exactly the way you do? I'm not trying to ask those questions in a snarky or rhetorical way. I am genuinely interested in the answers. It sounds like it must matter a lot to you, because it's made you so frustrated.

I'm taking it that this last of your response just doesn't apply to me personally, because I never called myself agender and I'm not really looking for a label to define me, just trying to figure out how to belong and fit in with people based on my own experience of the world. It's also not something I discuss regularly. If your facebook friend's posts get under your skin, you can easily block them without even defriending them. Do you ever try to discuss the issue with them?

I find the people who constantly harp on an issue IRL or on FB tend to also be the most extreme and most narrow-minded about that issue. This might apply to your friend/acquaintance on Facebook who is bashing men and posting a steady stream of attention-seeking posts. I understand how seeing the same person repeat the same thing over and over again without ever seeming to learn or grow or really take in another perspective can get grating. Maybe your negative response is more to the medium and not the message.

It always amazes me that sex and gender topics can rile people up so much. I have very little angst about it all. I'm not on a mission, here. I am just a curious person interested in how others think and feel.
No it wasn't aimed at you at all, sorry. I'm just sick of the entire shouty 'me me me' liberal equality bullshit campaign, which rather snugly includes the gender issue here. I've always hated labels, descriptions and the need for some specific, peculiar social category for everyone to fit into. Maybe it's because I'm an INTP who has never had much respect for categorisation at all. The world became quite a bit more cluttered ever since facebook decided to introduce it's several thousand options for gender and sexual orientation. All I've seen is a rise in narcissistic wankers who feel it necessary to proclaim their oh-so fantastic and individual sexual/gender identification from the highest rooftop they can find. Nobody else cares apart from those who are part of that crowd.

You're right I should just delete facebook and get on with my life. The internet is the only place I really see all this. Ha
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,785 Posts
No it wasn't aimed at you at all, sorry. I'm just sick of the entire shouty 'me me me' liberal equality bullshit campaign, which rather snugly includes the gender issue here. I've always hated labels, descriptions and the need for some specific, peculiar social category for everyone to fit into. Maybe it's because I'm an INTP who has never had much respect for categorisation at all. The world became quite a bit more cluttered ever since facebook decided to introduce it's several thousand options for gender and sexual orientation. All I've seen is a rise in narcissistic wankers who feel it necessary to proclaim their oh-so fantastic and individual sexual/gender identification from the highest rooftop they can find. Nobody else cares apart from those who are part of that crowd.

You're right I should just delete facebook and get on with my life. The internet is the only place I really see all this. Ha
Because of a few "narcissistic wankers" you're going to completely dismiss the experiences that those outside the norm endure? Do you think gays should have just quietly accepted discrimination and marriage inequality? Should blacks have just peacefully kept obeying segregation laws? The problem is indeed that most people don't care about such injustices when they first come to light and sometimes the only way to have justice served is to push people out of their comfort zones and fight like hell for the rights you deserve. There's a lot of stupid hate out there against transgenders. Gender dysphoria is real and society needs to accommodate the fact, not just bury its head in the sand the way it always tries to do.
 

·
Registered
INTP
Joined
·
5,117 Posts
Because of a few "narcissistic wankers" you're going to completely dismiss the experiences that those outside the norm endure? Do you think gays should have just quietly accepted discrimination and marriage inequality? Should blacks have just peacefully kept obeying segregation laws? The problem is indeed that most people don't care about such injustices when they first come to light and sometimes the only way to have justice served is to push people out of their comfort zones and fight like hell for the rights you deserve. There's a lot of stupid hate out there against transgenders. Gender dysphoria is real and society needs to accommodate the fact, not just bury its head in the sand the way it always tries to do.
Gender dysphoria is real enough but are you seriously suggesting people who question themselves in that regard are also risking serious social discrimination? Do you seriously believe it's in the same category as racism and homophobia..?

Never in my life have I ever encountered anyone being belittled for acting a little bit different from whatever society apparently expects of them. At least not in terms of gender roles. Man, woman, something in between... nobody cares, and nobody ever has, at least not for several generations now. The only people being picked on are the ones who needlessly make a song and dance about it, wanting to be a special little butterfly in a world they feel disillusioned with. Reality check: There are 7 billion of us. We all feel 'different' somehow.

Question your sense of gender all you like, but no matter what goes on in your head it will never directly affect the way you're treated by society. How dare you connect such petty little thing to the history of racism, homophobia and other very real and oppressive struggles. I'm not disagreeing with how you feel on the inside, but you are free to do as you please, nobody is stopping you from feeling like you have no gender. But do not ever liken it to true oppression. You are free to feel as male or female or non-gendered as you please.

My only gripe is that people think it's a big deal, when it really isn't at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
There's a vast difference between being agender/genderfluid and simply not identifying with gender roles. Gender identity is a LOT more than purely gender roles.

I know agender people who experience bodily dysphoria upon simply thinking about the fact that they have sexual characteristics that clearly earmark them as being one specific gender. Agender people who were born male and hate the fact that their strong jaw gives them away, for example. Or people who bind their breasts and try to hide the fact that they have rounded hips, because they simply do not want to be recognized as female.

I'm not saying people cannot identify as these things without experiencing dysphoria, and I don't wanna invalidate your experiences, OP. But you gotta think carefully about what group you identify with, because you could be identifying with a group you probably do not come close to understanding the depth of experiences of.

I mean, no offense to you, but saying you relate to trans people because of things like liking androgynous people and wearing jeans instead of skirts... really? I'm an assertive, ambitious person with a thing for slender, philosophically inclined men, and I rarely ever wear dresses or skirts. I would never DREAM of saying I even come close to relating to trans people. They experience a LOT of shit (severe dysphoria, discrimination, death threats, sexual/professional/social/familial rejection, lack of medical support) that I, as a cis woman, would never experience. If we're in a position of privilege we gotta step back before relating to the experiences of struggling groups.

The very definitions of agender and genderfluid are far deeper than simply not conforming to gender roles.
Hello and thanks for your response. Maybe I jumped the gun by mentioning Trans people at all. I'll try to clarify. What I meant to communicate with my post was not that I think what I experience is particularly special or interesting or terrible or to suggest that it is on the same level as what Trans people experience. What I meant to do is simply describe my own experience and mention that the Trans movement has made it so that this is something I've been thinking about, something that is being readily discussed and appreciate that and sympathize with Trans people. I relate on a human level. That's all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Thank you to the past couple posters. This was very educational for me. I never said once that I was agender. I've never asked anyone to call me anything other than "female" because it's just EASIER to not have to explain to people the nuances of my reasoning. I honestly feel like language fails me. When I identify as female, I just do it for the relative ease of other people, not because it is 100% accurate. Yes, by doing this I avoid the onslaught of problems that arise when someone identifies as something else. If there were no negative social consequences, I'd ask people to call me something else because it would feel more natural to me. As of this point in my life I guess I'm just willing to sacrifice "perfect" expression of my identity for the sake of functionality.

All I wanted to do was say that I sometimes feel like I "have no gender", and asked if others ever feel this way. If anything I would like to FIND the terms to accurately describe my feelings about gender on a personal scale and beyond. I do often feel like a have no gender or have a sort of mixed gender. That's just the best way I can describe it. Is there a better way to say it?

I am glad that you said you didn't want to invalidate my experiences, because when I post something describing a very individual experience, that is kind of how it feels when people respond to it by telling me all the ways I do not qualify as this title or don't fit into this or that label. I am the first to admit I'm not an expert and I didn't wade into this trying to step on toes or minimize anyone else's personal issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,074 Posts
A lot of people don't feel like they suit their gender.

The thing is, the real issue is not to do with gender at all, it's to do with social stereotypes.

I despise the fact that some people say they don't 'feel' male or female. Biology is what it is, your anatomy is what it it. Sure, some people have transsexuality issues where they truly feel like they should be taking dick instead of receiving it, and vice versa, but this overall idea of not 'feeling' like you suit your gender is just stupid.

I'm a male. I am 100% a male. That doesn't make me a jock or a douche or whatever other male attributes the agender people seem to constantly rail against. I'm just a male human. And females are females.

The only glaring issue is gender roles. If a male wants to do whatever it is that females normally do, he doesn't have to suddenly declare that he isn't a male. Of course he's a male, he's got a dick, grows facial hair and has a gigantic adam's apple! His real issue is that he doesn't 'fit in' with the most common idea of his gender, so he feels left out and decides to just go berserk and shout to the world, "I'M NOT MALE!", which to me is just a pointless hissy fit.

Live and let live! Stop with the compartmentalising, labelling and all that other shite.

EDIT: Here's another thing to consider. This whole gender fluid agender shite is a MALE construct anyway! Consider that for eons we've had the concept of a tom-boy - a girl who acts a lot more boyish than is 'normal'. And nobody really cares. Nobody ever has. It's just a tomboy. Yet now we have this wave of mutiny over guys who claim they don't feel male enough. By shouting 'AGENDER' from the rooftops, all they're doing is saying they're ashamed of the usual 'girly' label they get given by the male dominant society they live in. In reality they shouldn't care. How is it the tomboys of society got on for so long without having to make a big fuss about it? Because they're women! Yet now some MEN are getting uppity about their gender identity and they think the whole world wants to know?!

Oops sorry this became a rant. Oh well. Blame the cunt I see on facebook every day, writing about his utter hatred for men, and his self-declaration of gender neutrality coupled with a seething holier-than-thou attitude over everything if you call him out on any of it (e.g. changing his name to Ava (a girl's name but that's ok, he decided it's gender neutral because he likes it..!?). He's pushed me to this. I mean... It has.They have. Whatever fucking pronoun he fucking expects of me. I don't know, I don't care, I'm sick of it all.
I get what you are saying but I think maybe there are more gradations or levels to it. I heard a PBS thing about young children seeming convinced they are not the gender their bodies say they are. We don't know if these children have already been exposed to the extreme social pressure you experience by being a guy who does poetry and not football (or whatever). The ability to take mri and ee-electro whatever pictures of our brain is exciting and there is obviously a lot we don't know - yet.

That being said, I do find it outrageously insane that someone can be voted women of the year - and have a penis.

But @Nitrogen in regard to the OP I relate somewhat. My guess (in my case) is that the large proportion of women with strongly Fe influenced personalities can make female thinkers feel alien sometimes. I think reasonable females can want to disassociate from stereotypes and clothing is one way to do that. But for me, honestly one thing I like about being female is that it has something to it that can be played as an advantage even though sometimes it seems like an extra burden - female appearance. I don't mean I do Erin Brockovich strategy, I don't have the cleavage for that.

The thing for me is that most of "who I am", (from perspective of my own awareness) comes from how I think, and what I see myself able to learn, comprehend or accomplish (which is often not gender specific or gender relevant). Women who don't want to have children can get (in my opinion) an awful lot of disproportionate, negative reaction for that. I struggled with this from my early teens. In my case, age group, there was a lot of talk about how nobody can have it all. I never saw a way for me to be a married woman without the trap of a socially expected role I just didn't want. Maybe It was my own lack of being able to sort and prioritize that I was afraid of. It wasn't ever about being good enough, but a fear that I would loose myself (not in a good way) because social pressure is stronger once you are half-way down that road.

So I wonder if your attraction levels are physiological or more psychological? By being with someone more androgynous there is more room to full-fill a life based on the individuals in the relationship and not be herded by social pressure into roles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,113 Posts
 
I get what you are saying but I think maybe there are more gradations or levels to it. I heard a PBS thing about young children seeming convinced they are not the gender their bodies say they are. We don't know if these children have already been exposed to the extreme social pressure you experience by being a guy who does poetry and not football (or whatever). The ability to take mri and ee-electro whatever pictures of our brain is exciting and there is obviously a lot we don't know - yet.

That being said, I do find it outrageously insane that someone can be voted women of the year - and have a penis.

But @Nitrogen in regard to the OP I relate somewhat. My guess (in my case) is that the large proportion of women with strongly Fe influenced personalities can make female thinkers feel alien sometimes. I think reasonable females can want to disassociate from stereotypes and clothing is one way to do that. But for me, honestly one thing I like about being female is that it has something to it that can be played as an advantage even though sometimes it seems like an extra burden - female appearance. I don't mean I do Erin Brockovich strategy, I don't have the cleavage for that.

The thing for me is that most of "who I am", (from perspective of my own awareness) comes from how I think, and what I see myself able to learn, comprehend or accomplish (which is often not gender specific or gender relevant). Women who don't want to have children can get (in my opinion) an awful lot of disproportionate, negative reaction for that. I struggled with this from my early teens. In my case, age group, there was a lot of talk about how nobody can have it all. I never saw a way for me to be a married woman without the trap of a socially expected role I just didn't want. Maybe It was my own lack of being able to sort and prioritize that I was afraid of. It wasn't ever about being good enough, but a fear that I would loose myself (not in a good way) because social pressure is stronger once you are half-way down that road.

So I wonder if your attraction levels are physiological or more psychological? By being with someone more androgynous there is more room to full-fill a life based on the individuals in the relationship and not be herded by social pressure into roles.
You rock my world.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
255 Posts
Fellow INTJ female here. Also went through a 'what the hell am I' phase in terms of masculine vs feminine. Getting hit on by women amuses me and sometimes even tempts me. I've read a number of times about INTJ women who don't identify as lesbian but like the idea of sleeping with a woman. Some don't even identify as bisexual, seeing it as just a random blip in their ongoing heterosexuality. So apparently INTJ women who principally like men but are somewhat attracted to a woman on occasion is a thing.

Even though much of my way of thinking is more typical of a man than a woman I still identify as a highly feminine woman (I have a bunch of highly feminine characteristics). I see myself as highly feminine with a dash of highly masculine. Rather than those mixing in me to become somewhat androgynous they remain separate almost like I am strongly feminine and strongly masculine at the same time, although the masculine part is smaller in me (my 'animus' plus my thinking style?)

The upshot for me is a need for an extremely masculine man to date (in his character, looks are largely irrelevant. His masculinity needs to be more masculine than my masculinity). I wear feminine clothes in part bc it reflects how much I enjoy being a woman (and I like feminine clothing), in part to attract the type of man I need and in part bc I enjoy the disguise. Being seen as and assumed to be just a feminine woman, worse, a blonde, amuses me to no end.
 

·
Grumpy old bastard
Joined
·
10,085 Posts
FWIW, I know a LOT of NT women who wonder WTF about being feminine and girly and ........ some don't really get makeup, gossip, hoping some dude thinks they're cute, etc.

The path is different for an NT woman than for a feeler woman. But, most do reconcile feminine, and figure out they are seen as sexy and feminine for the right guy.

And yes, there are others out there, but because you are NT you probably aren't the greatest at noticing stuff IRL compared to some.... (smiles, I'm NT as well.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,074 Posts
FWIW, I know a LOT of NT women who wonder WTF about being feminine and girly and ........ some don't really get makeup, gossip, hoping some dude thinks they're cute, etc.

The path is different for an NT woman than for a feeler woman. But, most do reconcile feminine, and figure out they are seen as sexy and feminine for the right guy.

And yes, there are others out there, but because you are NT you probably aren't the greatest at noticing stuff IRL compared to some.... (smiles, I'm NT as well.)
You assume that reconciling is about being or feeling sexy enough?
You don't understand the social pressure of how "being the woman" in a relationship is like having an extra job.
Maybe it is makeup among other things (for some women) but maybe not. I won't go so "feminist" as to say this is a patriarchal conspiracy but I don't think you @drmiller100 can comprehend the choices women have to make. The guy is still just the guy after he gets married, he's the same, judged by society on the same criteria, whether married or single.

Sometimes, if a woman is a supermodel she can marry a guy who has a life, and stands on his own two feet, with her only having to do a few trophy appearances here and there; hire a nanny (or a cook), whatever. Married couples can easily get caught up in a lot of activity that they just do because it is what married people do, and most of the mindless grunt labor to make these activities happen - will fall on the woman. When you are single, so what if you eat ramen while being in artist la la land, pushing a deadline for your design project and being higher than high - without drugs, because the project is challenging.

When married, you have to think about how the spouse needs to prove or compensate for whatever they need to compensate for - the man needing to prove manhood by showing his Dad he has a long enough driveway (for example) - and the woman is expected to be available as a full time ego prop.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,935 Posts
OK so I've been thinking about this for a while. And by a while I mean basically my entire life.

When I discovered Mbti and was typed as INTJ it was really reassuring for me to have some sort of community label describe me succinctly in terms other than FEMALE, WOMAN, or GIRL, because so many female stereotypes seem to align with sensing and feeling types I can have trouble relating to. It was also a bit depressing to see that there are so few INTJ women out there. It did make sense as to why I found it hard to relate to many of my peers though. I guess I am wondering how MBTI has maybe helped people think about their own gender identities, and whether or not it has challenged or affirmed them.

With a lot of Transgender and LGBT issues hitting the news lately, I have been thinking about how, to some extent, I really relate on a very personal level when I read about transgendered people's experiences even though I'm not transgendered. Though I am physically a woman in her mid-twenties, I've never felt that I fit into any of the roles and stereotypes that are typically female. But I also definitely don't feel male. I've only dated men. I often feel like I have no gender or am just kind of gender fluid. I used to joke that I was a gay man trapped in a straight woman's body, because I dated guys but I also sometimes just felt like I was one of the guys.

---My story (Scroll to the bottom if you wanna just skip it!)---

I recently started thinking about gender roles in terms of my friends. They say people often look for friends who are a lot like themselves, whether for affirmation or whatever. I have a small circle of friends that consists of men and women. I seem to have no problem getting along with either women or men, but the people I tend to relate with most are women who have more "masculine gendered" traits: being socially laid back, straightforward, not caught up in gossip and cattiness, etc. and men who have more "feminine gendered" traits: not super macho testosterone sportsfest dudebros, calm, understanding, good language skills, etc.

I thought at first that this was just the fact that I liked smart, funny, chilled out people of all varieties. Back in high school I just thought EVERYONE liked people like this because duh, they were cool and awesome, right? I thought gender stereotypes were just stupid lying constructs and didn't apply to anyone.

But, when I look at my peers I see that many of them seem to cluster in these hypermasculine or hyperfeminine respective herds and I see where all the old ass stereotypes of "men are pigs" and "women are ditzy" come from. The stereotypes I avoid seem to completely make sense if you look at some of the behaviour of the women and men in these highly gendered circles. I have found that there are groups of women who apparently regularly do things like "go shoe shopping together" (gasp!) and guys who revel in "watching the game" and "scoring chicks" (lol?). These are just circles in which I have never moved.

My preference for people who are a bit, for lack of any other term, gender neutral seems to also extend to my sexual preferences. I have never really discussed it with anyone other than my boyfriend, but I'm a little bit bisexual. I say a little bit, because it's hard to explain. First of all it's relatively rare that I'm attracted to ANY person, but if I am it is most often a man. However, I am also infrequently attracted to women who have a certain androgynous quality. It seems they're rare. The only celebrity examples I can think of are that there is something about Olivia Wilde that turns me on. Also Laura Prepon. I have no idea what exactly it is. They're still definitely feminine but they have a sort of straightforward, no-nonsense, friendly quality to them. They look healthy. They have lower pitched voices and seem... competent. I can count on one hand the times I have ever come across a woman that seems to fit whatever messed up unconscious criteria my brain has decided it's looking for.

Likewise, I am not into guys who are really big and buff and manly. That turns me off. I am attracted to slim, athletic (like runner/biker/swimmer body) or a bit squishy "dad bod" is fine too on the right guy (some guys just look like they're supposed to be a bit heavy :)). Neanderthal men with giant jaws and biceps rrreally turn me off. I also kinda have a thing for Asian men. I hate loud obnoxious men, misogynists, men who think they're always right, and men who tell me what to do with my life. If a guy is kinda quiet at first and has high emotional intelligence I'm in.

I would totally date a transgendered person, either male-female or female-male. Their transgenderedness does not alienate me or turn me off. On the contrary, I think I'd relate pretty well.

I was a tomboy as a kid. Played soccer at recess with the boys instead of skipping with the girls once I worked up the courage to do it. I get excited about computers, technology, and video games. My boyfriend asks me for help when he has trouble with his laptop. I have replaced numerous parts of my computer. I'm into 3D art and graphic design, film, animation, new media--fields dominated by men. But I was always a very good reader writer, areas women typically excel in. I always score high on visual spatial reasoning, but I am truly terrible at algebra, calculus, and math that isn't straight up geometry. When navigating in an unfamiliar place I have no sense of direction at all and pretty much entirely use landmarks to orient myself and give directions, which is supposedly a typically female way of navigating.

There are lots of typically feminine things I like. I enjoy and wear makeup almost every day but minimal and natural looking. I love cooking and between me and my boyfriend I do WAY more of it. I love cute animals and other cute shit. I dress in women's clothing but it's the most gender neutral wardrobe with a lot of black, grey, blue, greens and I tend to cover up. I wear a lot of jeans and T shirts with a simple smart jacket over top. I wear heels maybe twice in a year. I think I look strange in a dress or skirt and feel self conscious of my body when I wear one to an event like a wedding but I have yet to find a pant suit that doesn't look awful. On days off I might wear leggings and a sweatshirt or men's hoodie. Since I was like 10 I've had either a bob or a pixie cut and prefer to keep my hair somewhere above my shoulders, otherwise it starts to feel like it's just "not me". I like fashion but have a strong preference for really androgynous or masculine clothes, watches, etc. I don't wear jewellery.

I have been with my current BF for eight years. Neither of us cares about marriage and we don't want kids. I have never had much (any?) maternal instinct. I feel protective of children in a general sense but no desire to have my own. If I did have kids I would hope that my partner or maybe a nanny could deal with most of the childcare. I have always been the more career-focused and goal-oriented of the two of us.


---

Why do so many people seem to only understand sex and gender in binary terms, and see anything else as a 'rejection' of some kind of established norm? Nothing about who I am or what I do or wear feels like a rejection. It feels like accepting how I am. The 'default settings' me, if you will. It's just me being authentic about what I like and what I don't, and how I like to operate.

I can't imagine how hard it must be for people who are transgendered, just trying to make things feel normal for themselves and being judged sometimes incredibly harshly for it. I have not experienced that particular struggle. Instead, I feel like I'm floating around in the middle of a completely wacko binary, unable to find any terminology that defines my experience.

This has been long and I apologize, but yeah -- it's hard to articulate the nuances of my experiences with gender.

Are there any others out there who feel genderless or gender-lost or like they are just cannot relate and have no connection to the predominant gender stereotypes? If so, maybe you could tell me a bit about your thoughts and what your type is? I'm interested to know if other people have had similar experiences with sex and gender.
The word you are looking for is called AGENDER and I often forget my gender and race. I dont see race or gender.
 
1 - 20 of 139 Posts
Top