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You assume that reconciling is about being or feeling sexy enough?
You don't understand the social pressure of how "being the woman" in a relationship is like having an extra job.
Maybe it is makeup among other things (for some women) but maybe not. I won't go so "feminist" as to say this is a patriarchal conspiracy but I don't think you @drmiller100 can comprehend the choices women have to make. The guy is still just the guy after he gets married, he's the same, judged by society on the same criteria, whether married or single.

Sometimes, if a woman is a supermodel she can marry a guy who has a life, and stands on his own two feet, with her only having to do a few trophy appearances here and there; hire a nanny (or a cook), whatever. Married couples can easily get caught up in a lot of activity that they just do because it is what married people do, and most of the mindless grunt labor to make these activities happen - will fall on the woman. When you are single, so what if you eat ramen while being in artist la la land, pushing a deadline for your design project and being higher than high - without drugs, because the project is challenging.

When married, you have to think about how the spouse needs to prove or compensate for whatever they need to compensate for - the man needing to prove manhood by showing his Dad he has a long enough driveway (for example) - and the woman is expected to be available as a full time ego prop.

smiles, and sent with humor............

Well that certainly escalated quickly! Strangely enough, there are guys who don't really give a shit about society's expectations, who don't want or need a lady to compensate for him, who don't mind making dinner and spending weeks with the kids while she gets her project done.

The cool thing is the great ladies who are smart and interesting learn to camouflage in making them damn near impossible to identify. It takes a hell of a maturity level to decide to shed society's expectations, and market as you truly are.
 
The path is different for an NT woman than for a feeler woman. But, most do reconcile feminine, and figure out they are seen as sexy and feminine for the right guy.
Yes, that's exactly how it worked for me. It was a relief to discover there are men who not only value intelligence and strength in a woman but who are able to view a woman like me as feminine while having 'rational' qualities. I stick with NT types now and forget the days of being told with a tone of disdain that I'm "different to other girls" or "not a real woman". Part of my path was just maturing enough to allow my own opinion of myself to define me. I'm not feminine bc I don't want to talk about feelings for hours while cuddling, bc I'm capable and have things I would like to achieve etc? Nah, I'm plenty woman.
 
smiles, and sent with humor............

Well that certainly escalated quickly! Strangely enough, there are guys who don't really give a shit about society's expectations, who don't want or need a lady to compensate for him, who don't mind making dinner and spending weeks with the kids while she gets her project done.

The cool thing is the great ladies who are smart and interesting learn to camouflage in making them damn near impossible to identify. It takes a hell of a maturity level to decide to shed society's expectations, and market as you truly are.
"Market as you truly are" is an interesting concept. But you sounded in the first post like you assume a female who doesn't dress in a feminine way is doing this because she lacks confidence in her sexuality.

Women are in a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation when it comes to appearance - unless you have a totally invisible incognito job. So then just because you (I) make a good (socially functional) presentation of myself in appearance, doesn't mean I'm eager to answer some guy's question about laundry, like he thinks I'm going to be thrilled to show how i can be of service.

Sooo, i'm saying I can see how a woman starts thinking "you guys are putting me on the wrong team", i'm one of you! Having a vagina doesn't make me want to BS you about special laundry tactics - i will go and look at labels of products at the grocery store just the same as you might do if you have a laundry problem (if it matters).

- - - - - - -

.....and it doesn't have to be specifically the guy who adds pressure. When you are married, if the house looks dumpy it is the woman's fault. For INTJ's maybe this is where not using Fe comes in handy. But a person can have a life where someone getting a bad impression of you is not just about how you might get hurt feelings. It could be pragmatically more significant than a remark from the in-laws.

This is where I was thinking about how androgyny in a spouse could seem like a relief. Not saying it was the answer for me but I see the appeal from a practical angle.

- - - - - - - -
Here is the problem with the guy being willing to help out - we all know a guy can go temporary insane for a couple years and be glad to do anything the woman wants. Two years of an in-love reaction doesn't tell you what your real life is going to be in terms of anything maintainable.
 
But you sounded in the first post like you assume a female who doesn't dress in a feminine way is doing this because she lacks confidence in her sexuality.

.
wow. that is a LONG stretch from what I wrote or what I meant. Obviously we had a huge disconnect, and I'm grateful for the opportuntiy to get it resolved.

FWIW, FOR ME, "feminine" has nothing to do with clothes or appearances. I'm not nearly as visually driven as most guys, or women for that matter.
 
Likewise, I am not into guys who are really big and buff and manly. That turns me off. I am attracted to slim, athletic (like runner/biker/swimmer body) or a bit squishy "dad bod" is fine too on the right guy (some guys just look like they're supposed to be a bit heavy :)). Neanderthal men with giant jaws and biceps rrreally turn me off. I also kinda have a thing for Asian men. I hate loud obnoxious men, misogynists, men who think they're always right, and men who tell me what to do with my life. If a guy is kinda quiet at first and has high emotional intelligence I'm in.
I would totally date a transgendered person, either male-female or female-male. Their transgenderedness does not alienate me or turn me off. On the contrary, I think I'd relate pretty well.
This doesn't make you "agender" it makes you a woman with different partner preferences. The fact that you associate the female gender with a exclusive preference for "big" men shows how shallow your thinking really is. This seems like a poor attempt to brag about how "different" you are compared to your peers, which honestly is extremely cliched.
 
wow. that is a LONG stretch from what I wrote or what I meant. Obviously we had a huge disconnect, and I'm grateful for the opportuntiy to get it resolved.

FWIW, FOR ME, "feminine" has nothing to do with clothes or appearances. I'm not nearly as visually driven as most guys, or women for that matter.
Wow dude, you're so non-judgemental.. what a catch, so how many relationships have you actually been in?
 
W what a catch, so how many relationships have you actually been in?

LOL........... How do you count them?

marriages? 1.
Engagements? 2.
ladies I've dated for 1 year or more? 5?????

ladies I've dated for 3 months or more?
slept with? slept with and still friends?
 
Still haven't found your equal, eh?


I don't want to date a 6'2, 280 pound dude with a beard no matter how brilliant he is.



if you want to troll, go make your own thread, or visit the entp thread and join the "ask the entp a question and get a sarcastic question" thread.
 
This doesn't make you "agender" it makes you a woman with different partner preferences. The fact that you associate the female gender with a exclusive preference for "big" men shows how shallow your thinking really is. This seems like a poor attempt to brag about how "different" you are compared to your peers, which honestly is extremely cliched.
I thought the intent was that she is honestly trying to sort out her feelings and was telling us of her experience. An observation of yourself and looking for a pattern or not - just is what it is, not a brag or an apology.
 
Hi Nitrogen, I'm also INTJ and I can relate to a lot of that. I don't really feel that I have much of an identity surrounding gender. I'm kinda picky about who I interact with and it normally isn't related to gendered behaviors, but just trends of the types of people I seem to get along with. So I also tend to have more or less even splits of male and female acquaintances/friends. I think my pattern of attraction is more typical than yours...it's just not something I "identify" with, exactly. (I actually find the term "sexual identity" rather odd).

I never felt gender-fluid, but I neither felt overly gender conscious so I can partially relate to this (maybe general introversion have also something to do with it).
Yeah, I think it's related to introversion. I've also wondered if this is function-related in the case of the OP and myself, because of Ni's tendency to detach from reality and Te's tendency to compartmentalize (how are sex organs relevant to behavior, or any non-sexual situation for that matter?)
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
This doesn't make you "agender" it makes you a woman with different partner preferences. The fact that you associate the female gender with a exclusive preference for "big" men shows how shallow your thinking really is. This seems like a poor attempt to brag about how "different" you are compared to your peers, which honestly is extremely cliched.
Did you even read my post? I don't associate the female gender with an exclusive preference for "big" men nor did I say anything even close to this anywhere in the post. How is it bragging to ask an honest question on an anonymous message board? If this were something I wanted to brag about I'd be advertising it elsewhere instead of writing a post. I've never even discussed this with anyone in my life before. Thanks for trying to shut me down, though. Really helpful.
 
Did you even read my post? I don't associate the female gender with an exclusive preference for "big" men nor did I say anything even close to this anywhere in the post. How is it bragging to ask an honest question on an anonymous message board? If this were something I wanted to brag about I'd be advertising it elsewhere instead of writing a post. I've never even discussed this with anyone in my life before. Thanks for trying to shut me down, though. Really helpful.
You go out of the way to state your sexual preferences, why? Everything you state about yourself seems within the norm of women in today's society, you somehow think because you don't conform to a generalized stereotype you lack a gender? It sounds like you expect people to affirm the fact that your gender is somehow different?
 
I thought the intent was that she is honestly trying to sort out her feelings and was telling us of her experience. An observation of yourself and looking for a pattern or not - just is what it is, not a brag or an apology.
Well, I don't see why she needs to difference herself from a stereotype to prove she's "agender". You are what you are, why let other peoples ideas of gender keep you from living as you?
 
The way you worded your post makes me think that people have specific percentages of genderness. :laughin:

I feel like I am an accumulation of both genders..
I have some male qualities and some female qualities..
I kind of think of myself as having more of an adrogynous/genderfluid sort of way of looking at things.
Men think I'm girly and women think I'm masculinated.
So I'm sort of always out of the loop with the gender thing.
 
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