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Discussion Starter #1
@Turi I am really curious how you'd analyze my answers to certain questions in this questionnaire. (Section 4 especially.) It seems a bit contradictory to me so if you feel like having a bit of fun with looking at how to sort that out, please go ahead. :)

I'm otherwise pretty settled in my typing but there is one alternative type that keeps popping up for me from more close people and it's a bit surprising to me with how it's not all that similar to my own typing in some aspects... and those questions do get at that matter pretty well. o_o

(People who don't know me that well do agree with my typing, tho'.)


Section 2.

"Describe your verbal communication skills, your written communication skills, and your body language.
Feel free to go in-depth. If possible, detail your natural communication and body language preferences in various circumstances - with friends, with strangers, at work, in one-on-one situations, in group situations, personal, impersonal, that kind of thing. If anything irritates you about how others communicate, talk about that too.
The more information, the better."


Verbal and written communication: I'm nonverbal by default, way more spatially than verbally oriented. I prefer to talk in very short simple sentences e.g. just saying "do this", "do that". But once I properly switch over to verbal mode, I can write pretty well and structured. I just have to be "switched over" properly. I'm still better at it in writing though. When speaking, if I'm to get too verbal it gets draining and I feel like I get disconnected from that spatial awareness and my surroundings in general too much...

Btw English isn't my native language, but I figured out I really like learning languages, so that's another point for my verbal side. Better at grammar though than at building up vocabulary. Still, I get decent at the latter too and in my native language my skills for grammar, vocabulary and spelling are great.

Body language in general: By default aloof and reserved. I can subconciously but easily switch this to an open body language if I make myself look at what people are doing or just spontaneously get interested in it. Otherwise, I am very good and natural at drawing up boundaries by a closed body language that shows I ignore others, this actually gets useful sometimes. I don't actually necessarily ignore people by default though, I just look closed like that.

Body language with friends: open, engaging or at least receptive. I'll show excitement or other emotion maybe for short bursts. But I'm told by best friend that I can suddenly look closed and unapproachable and even too strict and she gets scared lol. But apparently she figured it out over time that it is easy/quick for me to come out of this closed mode, because it just doesn't last too long, so she doesn't get too scared anymore. :proud: I have no idea when she perceives me in that way...

Body language with strangers: aloof default, if a stranger approaches me sometimes, I can change to look receptive though. Often not though, and then they don't try to engage with me for longer than a few seconds to get information, but I did this experiment before once or twice with making my body language open (in that subconscious way) and god, strangers started talking to me forever. Lol. I decided that wasn't worth it bc they weren't very interesting people to me, so I went back to default closed body language. An advantage of it. :D (The other advantage is making it clear to suspicious people that I'm not open for attempts to engage me.)

Body language at work, etc: same as with strangers/default.

Nothing irritates me much about how others communicate or nothing comes to mind about this.

Preference for communicating with friends: don't talk all the time, let's go and do things beyond just talking.

Preference for communicating at work: be formal, not too personal.


"How do you prefer to make decisions, solve problems and/or puzzles?
Run us through your entire process - use specific examples, if possible - some ideas for your answer -
what questions do you ask yourself, if any? What goes through your mind? What do you take into account? What could alter your decisions? Are you comfortable with making a decision and settling on it? Do you like being able to change your decisions, after you've made them?"


Decisions: concrete final decisions, don't want to change them if not necessary. Hate the idea of second-guessing them. I like that decisive moment where it is all clear and concrete and visceral and I know I don't have to go back on the decision. It doesn't mean I can't change it if I get to see other information that I didn't consider before but with important decisions I really dislike to do that... with less important ones I can shift them around okay if the need comes up for it.

Two ways to get to this final decisive moment. 1: Detail-oriented. 2. Big picture-oriented.

1st version is like, I collect a lot of concrete data patiently, either systematic or sensory data. Sensory data I will be absorbing into sensory templates, and with both that and systematic data, I will be organizing them on the move with temporary placeholders or have the data waiting until I can fully identify and place its bits. Organization is according to categories I create based on tangible properties, pros/cons, etc. This detail-oriented process is very neutral emotionally, it's factual-detached instead, with no visceral priorities placed on anything. Then at one point I feel like the moment of the decision arrived, I will feel impatient, I connect to my visceral side too, and I will make the decision in one moment or so it feels. I just start to feel the main factors and the system gets to a new level according to those main factors so to speak. These main factors are concrete and very pragmatically oriented. And then it's very easy to decide quickly by the main factors.

2nd version is like that right away, oriented to main factors, no sinking into details. For the shift-able not-so-important decisions I often am like this. For some important ones too where I just feel like it's unnecessary to get into detail.

+1: I could try and decide in the detail-oriented neutral mode by pros and cons, but... eh. It's just not as satisfyingly decisive based on what's truly important...?


"Detail some things that piss you off - stress triggers - feel free to explain the reasons why these things irritate you - I don't want to hear about mild irritations - I want to hear about things that simply make your blood boil, or make you want to take action to alter the situation - things that make you want to leave an environment, things that make you dislike someone, things that truly get to you as a person and grate on every fiber of your being."

Um, eh, based on your definition, my blood boils pretty often. (Actually, that's true.) Or I just take action easily. :D

OK, the primary offenders are things that get in my way and people's unfair actions.

For the former, it's things that contradict my expectations with that. Things in general that contradict expectations of mine for my course of execution of things or for whatever other situation I have expectations for. Sometimes these expectations don't even become conscious until later.

For the latter, people who behave unfairly or disrespectfully towards me or towards others I care about or people ostracizing others. As for examples of unfairness or disrespect... People who betray the relationship I had with them. Where I showed a lot of care for years and they didn't value it eventually, instead becoming selfish and unfair. Inability to try and resolve conflicts. Ignoring me. Etc.

For the last part: "things that make you dislike someone, things that truly get to you as a person and grate on every fiber of your being". Not much to say there, I simply lack the emotional energy for this, especially for the very last part. Though nice dramatic language hahah.

This does not mean I cannot set myself against some people. If I find it necessary, I can and I will do so very consistently but I will not feel much for long. Again, just no emotional energy for that. Consistency in my behaviour will be maintained out of principle instead. I'm very impersonal in this way.


Detail a time (or times) in your life when you felt at your absolute best - when you didn't feel any kind of anxiety, when you didn't feel judged, when you felt appreciated for who you are, when you felt at your most creative, when you felt like "you".. you get the gist. You at your best, tell us about it.
All those together? Good luck...

I do feel at my best when I achieve something I set out to do. Especially if non-trivial in a situation with lots of pressure or a long term, hard to reach goal that'd be intimidating to most people, that requires patience and determination to get there.


"What are the strongest parts of your personality? The best traits about yourself."

Aggression + logic

(These have both their good and bad sides.)


"What is one specific trait that you value in others, yet simply do not possess yourself - though, if you were to work on it, it would really balance out your personality?"

Ability to reflect deeply for some situations to act in a more considered way. I'm not sure what this entails... in close relationship it would additionally come with a kind of empathy.


"What are the differences between how others see you, and how you see yourself?
Feel free to elaborate and explain the reasoning."


I feel I'm more open-minded than I look. I will always be willing to take in and process more information even though I look like I won't and even though it will take a long time for me.


Section 3.

"What is a perfect day to you?"

Wake up next to my SO and start the day together in an ahem, exciting way. Get meaningful and definitely not trivial work done, requiring a lot of systematic and concrete information in a complex system to work with, then checking out my real estates bringing me a lot of money. Then later go to a short road race with my SO, with both of us winning it in our separate categories (men/women). Then we go and celebrate the win with our close friends before SO and I escape for some short adventure somewhere where we've never been to before and who knows what we will be doing there depending on what we feel we are up to ;). Then go home together but don't fall asleep before we repeat the morning (and possibly not just morning) "routine". :p

Phew that's as far as my imagination will stretch right now. But yeahh, something like this would be pretty crazy perfect. :laughing:

If it was longer than a day, it'd involve more travel, too. Etc.


"What is a perfect night to you?"

The last part of the above perfect day. (Incl. the adventure bit, actually.)


"What is your idea of a perfect world?"

Not interested in that. Then nothing would be to be done anymore.


"What is your idea of hell on earth?"

No imagination for this one, sorry.



Section 4.

"Are you, most of the time, acutely aware of the people, things and events occurring in your immediate surroundings?"

Pretty aware. Acutely sounds a bit more... involved than I am. I can be like that too, though.


"Do you find yourself engaging in the sounds, colours, textures, scents and tastes of your environment - i.e, enjoying what you are currently experiencing, most of the time?"

That sounds too passivating to me, the antithesis of me. Like I mean, I'd rather be task focused than passively enjoying these things. That, or be engaged in competitive or otherwise physically challenging action. But not this passively experiencing sensory hedonism, lol.


"Do you seek common ground, when faced with new situations - thoughts like "this is like _____" or "this is similar to _____" - something that will stabilise the current situation and turn it into something more comfortable for you?"

Well structurally situations can be similar to other situations, yes, but I will not consciously think of the details of other situations. That would be way too distracting from the actual situation. I do find the structural focus important though, it orients me strongly. I'd definitely feel it's too much chaos without that orienting but I usually quickly orient. I mean, I can get by without the structure too if I must (I'd just be dealing with seemingly randomly placed objects then) but I'd rather have that structure.

By "structural" I mean something like, the template of the situation makes sense to me. I'm not sure how to describe this better though. It's not something in front of you that you can directly point at. I'll try with an example: if I go to a type of government office then I can see how the template of how things are organized there is structurally similar to another kind of government office (I will also see the differences of course but the point is that it gets compared to that other type of office). By template of things I mean anything, placements of visible objects and organization of these objects by their functions, and processes of how things are done and how people are organized.

I hope that made sense, please let me know if not, and I will try to explain better.

Ah, and there is another way I can relate to this question. If I see an object, I can take its sensory template easily and organize by that. So for example I could see a bottle and I could say "this is like a coca-cola bottle". Same kind of shape and size and same kind of function. Or it could be a different kind of bottle and then I'd liken it to another bottle and so on. I think this is an important aspect of perception of things so you can recognize and organize and handle objects really fast then.


"Do you find you have a strong sense for how things 'should be', even when faced with something unfamiliar?"

For unfamiliar things, no, lol, no imagination for this. Once I familiarized myself with it then sure I can have expectations. I often have expectations for the process of something and when things get in the way of that, I get real pissed off, see earlier question on that. :) Interestingly enough, when in "crisis/pressuring situation mode", I do not go by expectations as much anymore, I become way more adaptable then than that.


"Do you actively engage in promoting a harmonious atmosphere - be honest with yourself, this includes being a conflict-averse introvert."

By default NO LOL. I'll either be reserved and do nothing to avoid issues or I'll engage in conflict way too easily. :laughing:

I will get fixated on promoting the group harmony though if I feel responsible for the group socially but this isn't often... I will also get REALLY fixated on it if it is conflict between two people I already feel some kind of loyalty/care for. But I feel I'm pretty passive in promoting explicit harmony, I just try to be the voice of reason oriented towards resolution of the conflict, trying to mediate, etc. Though with the group stuff, if it's someone being ostracized by others, I can get more active in angrily defending them. Depending on situation. I can dole out really strong personal moral judgments sometimes then. o_o I'm more neutral on personal morality by default so that's why it's interesting.


"Do you actively seek to connect with other people, and do you make use of social niceties in order to interact with people more smoothly - to make them feel validated, accepted, comfortable? - this includes regular use of "please", "thank you", etc.. general social niceties."

Even reading this question overloads me almost. Something screams in me "too much Fe!". lol

I mean, yeah, I'm ok with behaving politely in a rather impersonal way, but explicitly trying to make others FEEL validated, accepted, etc is where I go "too much Fe!!".


"Do you find yourself not being dependent on agreement and harmony around you, as long as the current situation doesn't impact on your own personal inner balance?
An example of this might be if you are doing something, and people are arguing in the same room - are you able to remain yourself, or will it affect your inner balance in a noticeable way?"


I'm able to remain very unaffected yeah. Not much can make me flinch. Even if you try to come at me raging. As long as it's not made too personal. As soon as it feels like personal feely stuff, I'm out of there. Not necessarily literally out of there, I'll still stand my ground if I must. It'll just be very stressful. "Too much Fe!!".


"Do you try to win others over to your point of view, in debates, arguments or just chit-chat in general?
I.e seeking agreement from the other person. Have a real think about this question, and be honest with yourself."


Yeah I strongly come off like this. I get very judgmental-sounding. And I do actually make strong judgments where strong arguments can convince me only. And as I said earlier, I don't look like I will take in the other pov and in fact it takes me a really long time even when I try. And frankly, I don't try for everyone for too long beyond a point (I do try to take in the information from everyone otherwise, whatever information they provide). If I care for someone I will do my best about it however (will ask follow-up questions, return to the topic later too, etc). But I've had relationships go bad over how I don't seem to take in the other pov. They couldn't understand that I just need time. :| A lot of time, true.

Not hard to be honest about all this as above, really. I know all too well that it is how it is for me.

However, the way the question is phrased is a bit "off" to me... What do we mean by "winning over" others to my pov? I am open to strong arguments convincing me. Just don't expect me to easily change my opinion. I would however find it silly to be not open to this at all so if that's what "win over" means then no, I'm not interested in that. Of course, when I am sure I'm right (which is pretty often, lol), I do get irritated if others seem to resist in an unreasonable way. As long as they can reason for it, I'm fine though. Otoh, I'd be very irritated if someone always wanted to disagree in important matters. Best if we part ways then.

So, you decide if this counts as me wanting to "win over" others to my pov...


"You just read that a local vacuum company just went bankrupt.
What your thoughts - feel free to expand and explore your thoughts and ideas as much as you like here. Please don't say "who cares?". Just do it."


No thoughts. Not even "who cares". Simply no imagination with this one, sorry. I'd be happy to try and write something for you but I just cannot. It would no longer by an honest presenting of myself either if I tried to force myself to write some bullshit.

Oh well, on second thought, it might have happened before that I wondered for a second about what factors led to bankruptcy for a company but since this example is about a vacuum company, I'd not be interested. It's not an area I'll ever deal with.


"Do you comfortably juggle multiple possible options in your mind, when problem solving? Do you find yourself exploring each of them - entertaining any possibilities that may arise from them, and enjoy envisioning scenarios where these might play out?"

No. This is even worse than the "Fe stuff" with explicitly connecting to random people, lol. No, actually, hard to tell which is worse. :laughing:


"Do you have a tendency to organise the world around you? Is it important for you to be in an orderly environment?
This might manifest as a preference for predictability - consider these questions on a smaller scale than what might be in your mind - i.e. is it important that the knifes go in the knifes slot, that the Nintendo games go where the Nintendo games go, etc.."


Yes and yes. To get more detailed here, I wish I had the time and energy to always put everything in 100% order. Once it's all in order, it's easy and automatic to maintain it, tho'.


"Do you find you are impatient with regards to efficiency?
Again, consider this also at a smaller scale - for example, do you prefer to rush through whatever chores that need to be done, so they're out the way?"


Yes.


"Do you find yourself taking over certain tasks because you know you can do it quicker?
This might be as mundane as telling your partner or friend, that you'll do the dishes - because you know they'll take forever and it's just 'better' for you to do it, and smash 'em out ASAP so they're done."


Yeah, this is a no-brainer.

If I can do it quicker and especially if I can do it better... definitely. It hurts my eyes to watch someone do stuff in a really shitty way. lol.


"Is it important for you to define things in your head?
This might manifest as googling words you've unfamiliar with so you actually know for sure what you're reading, or it might manifest as a preference to completely understand something to the point you can explain it to others in a simplified manner - born out of the precise definitions you've crafted in your mind."


I don't really have explanations born out of just precise definitions. That seems to miss the point to me, somehow. I mean, a system is about way more than just that. But of course, having the correct definitions is important. I just don't think I really reason "out loud" about this in my head or whatever.

Hm, on second thought, I think instead of "precise", the wording I'd use would be, "concretely anchored properly". Get everything concretely identified and linked to the tangible in the correct way. And then you can reallllly get somewhere with your system, see clearly with it and use it easily to take action.


"Is it of high importance to you, to understand all of the pieces of a puzzle.. or all of the information you're given, before coming to a decision or a conclusion about anything?
This might manifest as a tendency to hesitate when coming to conclusions or decisions as you don't feel you fully defined, or understood, all relevant information yet."


In some cases I do want to wait with the conclusion, yes, see detail-oriented mode for coming to a decision as described earlier. I dunno if I'd call it a puzzle though... That wording is very "off" to me, it is off-putting almost. It sounds like introducing uncertainty on a level that I do not care for. I instead call it having covered all the details of the situation or topic or issue. But yeah I like to have the feel of having covered it all. It can get compulsive drowning in the details even.

(Then it is hard to let go of that orientation and just go to impatient-decide-NOW mode. If I make myself do so, I'll feel like I've missed out on something. :/ And I'll never be able to fully let go of it, I'll remember it later too. It's silly, lol.)


OK I think that's all.
 

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A brief run-through suggests ISTJ is the most likely type - even isolating Section 4 - which part seems contradictory to you?

Does this resonate with you:
Socionics Types: SLI-ISTp

If I get some more time later on, I'll give it a more thorough response - I did read the whole thing, though.

Re: "winning people over" - this question is intended to differentiate between a stronger introverted judging function and an extraverted judging function.
It was supposed to be for Fe v Fi - however, I find peoples responses turn it more into a Je v Ji in general question, because like yours - it's clearly brought out a Te response, rather than an Fe v Fi one.

Introverted judging types tend not to care whether people are won over to their point of view - they prefer to say it how they see it, or just say their thoughts/feelings etc, and be done with it - it's on the other person to accept it or not.

Extraverted judging types seek agreement - so they want the other person to agree with them, and will aim to "win them over" to their point of view, for better or worse.

Of course, there's the ENTP stereotype of them playing devils advocate etc, but that's not what I'm trying to get at - it's the essence of actively trying to convince someone that you are right, that I'm striving to extract here.. not just offering alternate perspectives or arguments.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
A brief run-through suggests ISTJ is the most likely type - even isolating Section 4 - which part seems contradictory to you?
Ah, thanks for the input. I guess rereading it, I see a way to fit the "contradictory" parts enough if I see them as outliers without really providing a basis for an actual function preference (we otherwise have all 8 functions). Those people who suggested a different type do see a secondary mode of me, tho' and my answers do mention that mode (crisis situation mode).


Does this resonate with you:
Socionics Types: SLI-ISTp
Overall not a terrible description. Some stuff really fits, some stuff really does not fit. MBTI ISTJ descriptions tend to fit a bit better than this description.

The part on ignoring external demands and schedules of others and ignoring appearances doesn't fit. No bizarre aesthetic ideals. I don't do mechanical personal projects much, I will if I have to but I derive no special pleasure out of them. The bit on "preferring to focus on the richness of their physical experience" is similarly passivating like I said in my answer to the second question in Section 4. I mean, I can focus on it sometimes, sure, it's definitely part of life but it wouldn't be enough on its own, I'd rather focus on the task or on competitive things etc. The rest of the Si/Te/Ti sections is okay enough... The Ni, Fi and Fe sections fit decently well minus the issues with loudness and I don't relate to the examples about what I'd be opinionated about, I'm opinionated in very different things. Ne half fits, half doesn't. The Se section is very off, I'm definitely more aggressive and interested in status than what that section says there, and I'm more of a "control freak" than what it says.


If I get some more time later on, I'll give it a more thorough response - I did read the whole thing, though.
OK, thanks.


Re: "winning people over" - this question is intended to differentiate between a stronger introverted judging function and an extraverted judging function.
It was supposed to be for Fe v Fi - however, I find peoples responses turn it more into a Je v Ji in general question, because like yours - it's clearly brought out a Te response, rather than an Fe v Fi one.

Introverted judging types tend not to care whether people are won over to their point of view - they prefer to say it how they see it, or just say their thoughts/feelings etc, and be done with it - it's on the other person to accept it or not.

Extraverted judging types seek agreement - so they want the other person to agree with them, and will aim to "win them over" to their point of view, for better or worse.

Of course, there's the ENTP stereotype of them playing devils advocate etc, but that's not what I'm trying to get at - it's the essence of actively trying to convince someone that you are right, that I'm striving to extract here.. not just offering alternate perspectives or arguments.
Yeah ok, that makes sense, that sort of stuff is a big reason for my being J.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Uhm, I think I skipped part of this set of questions accidentally. @Turi if you want to read this:

"How do you prefer to make decisions, solve problems and/or puzzles?
Run us through your entire process - use specific examples, if possible - some ideas for your answer -
what questions do you ask yourself, if any? What goes through your mind? What do you take into account? What could alter your decisions? Are you comfortable with making a decision and settling on it? Do you like being able to change your decisions, after you've made them?"


So I only described the process in an abstract cognitive way... and didn't say anything about the rest. I haven't thought about this in detail before so what follows won't be the best way of putting it all yet but I've given it a good attempt in terms of discovering the main factors for the topic. It will just take more time for me to really put all this in order in my head too - so I'm sorry for the somewhat disorganized and overly detailed presentation. It's almost like a stream of consciousness though so maybe that's informative too. :D


OK, typically I like to make decisions, for example about how to organize my day, it's really neat when I can put tasks in an order that optimizes execution of them, including optimal use of time. Say, if I have to run errands and I have to go to the city to three different places as part of that, I'll definitely want to plan in what order I'm going to visit the places.

Another typical example of making decisions is when I figure out my training plan. I figure out the objective of each of the workouts, take into account some other basic factors (e.g. my current fitness level) and plan the details accordingly. (OK, I work with a coach atm, but when I make the plan on my own, this is how it happens.)

I also like to figure out what to buy, again it's to optimize, optimize spending vs what I get for the money. The other main thing I like to decide about is mid/longer term projects and how they fit into the overall plan. Again, I think the theme is optimizing, hmm... Optimize for how time is spent, how things are executed, in what order, what things I even choose that I decide were worth prioritizing, I found them important enough, or I just liked them more than other options... I just like to have things well-done on the whole or have things that are as great as possible if that makes sense. I wouldn't go so far as to call it perfectionism but maybe sometimes that too.

All in all, I said optimization and perfecting things is an important aspect for what I focus on when making decisions. I think I primarily like making decisions on how to prioritize things, as well.

Finally, I sometimes like to take charge and help make decisions for other people too. In a similar fashion as above.


What could alter my decisions, well for example if I planned to go to x place to take care of something at 11 AM but I'm still talking to my friend online at 10 AM when I'm supposed to leave and the thing can wait a bit more then I can push it to a later time than 11 AM... This thing with shifting stuff around in the daily plan actually happens fairly often also when I feel I just don't have the energy or the right state or something, I can't explain this better. But later I can get annoyed at how I shifted tasks too much to a later time. I can get in my own way a bit with it... though the most important stuff of course gets done in time, worst case it's last minute but still in time. And I want to change this attitude lately because I've had enough of it but I don't know yet how exactly I'm going to manage it.

Related is my attitude to being on time vs lateness: I used to be either on time to meet others/for appointments/etc when I actually cared (unless it was absolutely required, I'd of course comply then), or be late by like 20 minutes. I'd simply not be bothered to move until it was getting really late (20 minutes late). I don't know why. Then one day I decided that that was no good and I managed to train myself out of the "don't care" mode/reaction. It was emotionally negative for some reason when I tried to force myself to go on time, but I quickly learned to control the emotional reaction and now I'm on time to anywhere no problem, no negative emotional reaction anymore either.


OK so, I am otherwise good with sticking to decisions where I don't shift times like that, so for example in my training I really dislike changing my decisions for my plans. Or say, decisions about what to buy or how to treat someone's shit behaviour, etc. It's possible for me to revise stuff and change these decisions but I don't really prefer it. The question on whether I like to be able to change my decisions is a bit weird on first read... but I realize when I shift around shit in plans because I "feel like it" or because something happened, I can like the challenge of re-orienting and re-optimizing things. So yeah I can be OK with this.

I also thought recently about what it would be like if I cemented myself inside a totally inflexible schedule. But like it would be the perfect schedule, just fitting in a lot so it would be difficult to change it around if something came up, e.g. friend needing urgent help or anything like that. And I felt like, I am spoiled with the current situation of how I can often allow myself to shift things around and remain decently adaptable yeah... I'd be ok with the totally rigid schedule if it was worth it for some goal, but otherwise I felt like it'd be annoying, if I can't adapt to what comes up. Eh, but on the other hand it'd be also annoying to live in a totally unstructured way. I'd feel like nothing ever gets done even if that's not true. Hard to explain this one.

One more note on the shifting of times. When I am really good (no lack of energy or wrong mind state or whatever), I actually commit to the plan in a way that I actually get very angry if anything gets in the way. But I do like feeling committed like that. On some days I just get to have some problem with the wrong energy/state thingy. Maybe it's related to whether I am feeling good overall since I got worse recently with this after a bad relationship issue...


OK, for the rest: I don't really ask questions to myself, that just feels like it would slow down the process. What I take into account is what makes sense. Relevant and concrete options. Some pros/cons but I prefer to focus on the main ones only after I sorted through details if I even sort through details. It's like I do the details in half of the cases and no details in the other half of cases... pretty 50/50 really. I feel like I am 50/50 on this whole stick to decision vs change decision thingy too...


Oh and solving problems/puzzles: for problem solving, I want the problem to be concrete and I won't stray from realistic options, I will minimize time spent in my mind, I have a very deliberate thinking/decision-making process by default.

If the problem is complex and comes up in a really unexpected way and as a consequence, it throws me off track, that will then seriously disorient me, and that's when I can get to seek out unconventional methods/systems of understanding for solving the issue. It's actually pretty silly bc I think I do it in a way that wastes some time... but at that point I just don't seem to be able to listen to mainstream advice/ideas anymore. And I tend to be right with how those are not enough anymore, because these are complex and uncommon issues. Then at one point I manage to understand and put those unconventional systems to use, even if initially inefficiently yeah... but then I will be able to take the valid ideas from them based on my experience and understanding I've built up by then and then I'm back to mainstream with a better, deeper understanding than mainstream heh. So the whole detour is worth it for that, at least.

If this counts as solving a puzzle too, maybe... I can't really answer the question on puzzle solving otherwise. I do not see things as puzzles, that is just really "off" for my perception. It would be annoying to see things as puzzles, as it would not only feel aimless but it would introduce far too much uncertainty in the process as well.


Thoughts?
 

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@grumpytiger I probably won't be of any help to figuring out your type but I will give it a read later on when I have more time and can really buckle down and give thorough responses (don't want to half ass it lol). If anything, at least it can help us both compare and contrast in our cognitive process better since we both claim to be ISTJs on here but other parties might be disagreeing. So yeah anything is fair game.
 

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@grumpytiger I probably won't be of any help to figuring out your type but I will give it a read later on when I have more time and can really buckle down and give thorough responses (don't want to half ass it lol). If anything, at least it can help us both compare and contrast in our cognitive process better since we both claim to be ISTJs on here but other parties might be disagreeing. So yeah anything is fair game.
OK, that's a nice offer, thanks. :)
 

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@grumpytiger

I'm back haha. I can't help you with your type (I know very little about typology compared with other more knowledgeable users here). Like I mentioned before though, I could compare and contrast where us two "ISTJs" are similar and are different. If you think I'm INFJ, then maybe you can find some clues via this method lol.

Body language in general: By default aloof and reserved. I can subconsciously but easily switch this to an open body language if I make myself look at what people are doing or just spontaneously get interested in it. Otherwise, I am very good and natural at drawing up boundaries by a closed body language that shows I ignore others, this actually gets useful sometimes. I don't actually necessarily ignore people by default though, I just look closed like that.
I do this too but not really proud of it or anything. It's more because I feel shy and watched. So I sort of close up like a clam.
Body language with friends: open, engaging or at least receptive. I'll show excitement or other emotion maybe for short bursts. But I'm told by best friend that I can suddenly look closed and unapproachable and even too strict and she gets scared lol. But apparently she figured it out over time that it is easy/quick for me to come out of this closed mode, because it just doesn't last too long, so she doesn't get too scared anymore. :proud: I have no idea when she perceives me in that way...
I'm also more open with friends, but I don't think this says much. I can imagine most Introverts would share this similarity though.

Body language with strangers: aloof default, if a stranger approaches me sometimes, I can change to look receptive though. Often not though, and then they don't try to engage with me for longer than a few seconds to get information, but I did this experiment before once or twice with making my body language open (in that subconscious way) and god, strangers started talking to me forever. Lol. I decided that wasn't worth it bc they weren't very interesting people to me, so I went back to default closed body language. An advantage of it. :D (The other advantage is making it clear to suspicious people that I'm not open for attempts to engage me.)
Yup, still same. Gotta show those weirdos we're not easy targets lol.
Preference for communicating with friends: don't talk all the time, let's go and do things beyond just talking.
Why don't you want to talk? It gets boring? What sort of conversations are you used to having? Do you text a lot all day or no? I text my friends all day. It gets up to the point of 200+ messages a day, no joke lol. We just talk about nothing and everything.

Preference for communicating at work: be formal, not too personal.
Same, I always have my guard up at work. Never know if something you say can be used to someone else's advantage.

Decisions: concrete final decisions, don't want to change them if not necessary. Hate the idea of second-guessing them. I like that decisive moment where it is all clear and concrete and visceral and I know I don't have to go back on the decision. It doesn't mean I can't change it if I get to see other information that I didn't consider before but with important decisions I really dislike to do that... with less important ones I can shift them around okay if the need comes up for it.
This seems pretty obviously logical to me, but maybe not to all. Perhaps some people still like to keep options open even with serious decisions. Personally, if it's a very important decision like a new job, buying a house, a car, having a kid, etc...I would also like to make the decision, feel good about it and do it. Second guessing at those things would just cause more headaches and drama.
Two ways to get to this final decisive moment. 1: Detail-oriented. 2. Big picture-oriented.

 
1st version is like, I collect a lot of concrete data patiently, either systematic or sensory data. Sensory data I will be absorbing into sensory templates, and with both that and systematic data, I will be organizing them on the move with temporary placeholders or have the data waiting until I can fully identify and place its bits. Organization is according to categories I create based on tangible properties, pros/cons, etc. This detail-oriented process is very neutral emotionally, it's factual-detached instead, with no visceral priorities placed on anything. Then at one point I feel like the moment of the decision arrived, I will feel impatient, I connect to my visceral side too, and I will make the decision in one moment or so it feels. I just start to feel the main factors and the system gets to a new level according to those main factors so to speak. These main factors are concrete and very pragmatically oriented. And then it's very easy to decide quickly by the main factors.

2nd version is like that right away, oriented to main factors, no sinking into details. For the shift-able not-so-important decisions I often am like this. For some important ones too where I just feel like it's unnecessary to get into detail.

+1: I could try and decide in the detail-oriented neutral mode by pros and cons, but... eh. It's just not as satisfyingly decisive based on what's truly important...?
So for important decisions, you consider all the details, store them for "categorization and usage" later? For not as important decisions, you decide right away (feeling based?) Like you feel impatient and want to get it over with? I also over-analyze all important decisions to smithereens. I need to see all sides of it, the pros and cons, the future impact, and how it will make me and others feel. You mention your information gathering process is pretty devoid of emotion. That's very different from me. I don't think I often just go "huh" to something and don't feel any sort of feeling or emotion, or at least some sort of value based evaluation of it. When you watch really sad videos, do you tend to cry and feel so sad even though it's a video, or do you kind of just think about it afterward?

Um, eh, based on your definition, my blood boils pretty often. (Actually, that's true.) Or I just take action easily. :D

OK, the primary offenders are things that get in my way and people's unfair actions.

For the former, it's things that contradict my expectations with that. Things in general that contradict expectations of mine for my course of execution of things or for whatever other situation I have expectations for. Sometimes these expectations don't even become conscious until later.
Aren't ISTJs known to be very passionate about justice and also when they expect something and it turns out to be a bad surprise, they really dislike it? I am similar to you here. When I plan so much and so hard for something, and it blows up on me, I feel floored because I don't know how to solve the problem.

For the latter, people who behave unfairly or disrespectfully towards me or towards others I care about or people ostracizing others. As for examples of unfairness or disrespect... People who betray the relationship I had with them. Where I showed a lot of care for years and they didn't value it eventually, instead becoming selfish and unfair. Inability to try and resolve conflicts. Ignoring me. Etc.
I know nobody likes unfairness, but many people will brush it off as due to some other reasoning that can't be helped and look at it from another angle and such. Like if you made cookies for a friend on her birthday and sang a song for her, and on your birthday, she didn't even text you and later on just brushed it off casually. That sort of thing would boil my blood too. Some of my friends would feel it's sad and unfair, but would be like oh well, moving on.

This does not mean I cannot set myself against some people. If I find it necessary, I can and I will do so very consistently but I will not feel much for long. Again, just no emotional energy for that. Consistency in my behaviour will be maintained out of principle instead. I'm very impersonal in this way.
Principled consistency. Once again, not to just judge by behaviors, but isn't this sort of behavior known to be caused by the ISTJ's thought process? They are willing to endure things they don't really like because of the principle of the matter?

Aggression + logic
Interesting.

Ability to reflect deeply for some situations to act in a more considered way. I'm not sure what this entails... in close relationship it would additionally come with a kind of empathy.
I think this doesn't have anything to do with typology, but it is cool that you are considering it as improving. I also strive for the same thing. I think gift wrapping is pointless as heck, but still do it these days for "the thought that counts". I know people like nicely wrapped things.
I feel I'm more open-minded than I look. I will always be willing to take in and process more information even though I look like I won't and even though it will take a long time for me.
Slow process of information. Si? Ti? Do you assume much? Do you jump to conclusions much? Or do you sort of delay your judgment or reaction until you're sure you've gathered enough data?

Wake up next to my SO and start the day together in an ahem, exciting way. Get meaningful and definitely not trivial work done, requiring a lot of systematic and concrete information in a complex system to work with, then checking out my real estates bringing me a lot of money. Then later go to a short road race with my SO, with both of us winning it in our separate categories (men/women). Then we go and celebrate the win with our close friends before SO and I escape for some short adventure somewhere where we've never been to before and who knows what we will be doing there depending on what we feel we are up to ;). Then go home together but don't fall asleep before we repeat the morning (and possibly not just morning) "routine". :p
Ohohoho. Ehem. Okay moving on :p There's A LOT OF SENSORY experience preferred here. Like almost all of your preferences on your perfect day are engaging the senses. However, I don't really see anything that is zooming into a certain personal impression, except maybe for that adventure part. Isn't most of it just straight up sensory activities? Do you think this indicates Se or Si? Or not at all?

Not interested in that. Then nothing would be to be done anymore.
Interestinggg. Very, very different from how I would respond. I want a world free from hunger, pain and suffering. You want a world where things can constantly be improved and done.

No imagination for this one, sorry.
Same as above. Very different. Immediately, one giant scenario encompassing all little scenarios popped into my mind. Fire, war, death, hunger, disease, etc. Fascinating how my imagination can turn dark so quickly.

Pretty aware. Acutely sounds a bit more... involved than I am. I can be like that too, though.
Wow, you're really lucky and I do mean that. I wish I had the physical (or perhaps it's mental) ability to be more aware. Tunnel vision sucks.

That sounds too passivating to me, the antithesis of me. Like I mean, I'd rather be task focused than passively enjoying these things. That, or be engaged in competitive or otherwise physically challenging action. But not this passively experiencing sensory hedonism, lol.
Okay, so you want to be engaging your body and mind, not just letting the senses envelope you. Hmmm. So you want to take action. TJ type?

Ah, and there is another way I can relate to this question. If I see an object, I can take its sensory template easily and organize by that. So for example I could see a bottle and I could say "this is like a coca-cola bottle". Same kind of shape and size and same kind of function. Or it could be a different kind of bottle and then I'd liken it to another bottle and so on. I think this is an important aspect of perception of things so you can recognize and organize and handle objects really fast then.
I do this too. I subconsciously compare and contrast most things I see or otherwise sense. I think that's where those headstrong expectations and firm standards of the self and others partially originates from. Where in order to compare and contrast, you'd need to already have some map inside your head of what each category of "object" is. I don't think everybody has such a refined map inside their mind. Some people might look at the bottle and their mind really does drift to things vaguely related to a bottle but not drift to the memory of another bottle.

For unfamiliar things, no, lol, no imagination for this. Once I familiarized myself with it then sure I can have expectations. I often have expectations for the process of something and when things get in the way of that, I get real pissed off, see earlier question on that. :) Interestingly enough, when in "crisis/pressuring situation mode", I do not go by expectations as much anymore, I become way more adaptable then than that.
Same for me. I'm not usually comfortable with unfamiliar bad situations. Where I need to solve something but haven't been given the thorough instructions for. However, when forced to do it, there's no choice but to buckle down and extract every ounce of resource that is available to best complete the task at hand.
By default NO LOL. I'll either be reserved and do nothing to avoid issues or I'll engage in conflict way too easily. :laughing:
Hmmm, so you don't try to avoid conflict. I was tempted to relate this to Fe but nah, I remembered Fe isn't directly causing stuff like this. I actually can't think of any other function that could cause aggression. Maybe it's not explainable by functions, just like how good vs evil cannot be explained by functions. That's interesting to think about.

I will get fixated on promoting the group harmony though if I feel responsible for the group socially but this isn't often... I will also get REALLY fixated on it if it is conflict between two people I already feel some kind of loyalty/care for. But I feel I'm pretty passive in promoting explicit harmony, I just try to be the voice of reason oriented towards resolution of the conflict, trying to mediate, etc. Though with the group stuff, if it's someone being ostracized by others, I can get more active in angrily defending them. Depending on situation. I can dole out really strong personal moral judgments sometimes then. o_o I'm more neutral on personal morality by default so that's why it's interesting.
So you only really fully engage in convincing others mode when it's for a cause you really care about. Once again, tempted to relate this to Fi, but something seems too surface level about doing that. It's just Fe users are going to seeking input from others naturally, and you just don't seem to have mentioned much about this aspect.
Even reading this question overloads me almost. Something screams in me "too much Fe!". lol

I mean, yeah, I'm ok with behaving politely in a rather impersonal way, but explicitly trying to make others FEEL validated, accepted, etc is where I go "too much Fe!!".
Yeah I didn't personally see high Fe in your responses either. Also, you're definitely a T type. That much I know. You mentioned several times your outlook on things don't really involve much feelings, emotions, or value judgments.

I'm able to remain very unaffected yeah. Not much can make me flinch. Even if you try to come at me raging. As long as it's not made too personal. As soon as it feels like personal feely stuff, I'm out of there. Not necessarily literally out of there, I'll still stand my ground if I must. It'll just be very stressful. "Too much Fe!!".
I'm very different from you here too. I get really sensitive when I feel attacked. I try to remain calm as a facade, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't lol.

Yeah I strongly come off like this. I get very judgmental-sounding. And I do actually make strong judgments where strong arguments can convince me only.
 
And as I said earlier, I don't look like I will take in the other pov and in fact it takes me a really long time even when I try. And frankly, I don't try for everyone for too long beyond a point (I do try to take in the information from everyone otherwise, whatever information they provide). If I care for someone I will do my best about it however (will ask follow-up questions, return to the topic later too, etc). But I've had relationships go bad over how I don't seem to take in the other pov. They couldn't understand that I just need time. :| A lot of time, true.

Not hard to be honest about all this as above, really. I know all too well that it is how it is for me.

However, the way the question is phrased is a bit "off" to me... What do we mean by "winning over" others to my pov? I am open to strong arguments convincing me. Just don't expect me to easily change my opinion. I would however find it silly to be not open to this at all so if that's what "win over" means then no, I'm not interested in that.
Of course, when I am sure I'm right (which is pretty often, lol), I do get irritated if others seem to resist in an unreasonable way. As long as they can reason for it, I'm fine though. Otoh, I'd be very irritated if someone always wanted to disagree in important matters. Best if we part ways then.

So, you decide if this counts as me wanting to "win over" others to my pov...
I'm like this often as well. When something makes total logical sense, and despite this in front of their eyes, people still choose to ignore it and think in an opposite way, I get really upset as well. I do try to win them over by explaining it again or in a different format. Not sure why it matters so much to me what they think. Maybe I seek validation. Does it matter to you? Or are you just more upset that they're not being logical?

No thoughts. Not even "who cares". Simply no imagination with this one, sorry. I'd be happy to try and write something for you but I just cannot. It would no longer by an honest presenting of myself either if I tried to force myself to write some bullshit. Oh well, on second thought, it might have happened before that I wondered for a second about what factors led to bankruptcy for a company but since this example is about a vacuum company, I'd not be interested. It's not an area I'll ever deal with.
My first thought was: poor vacuum company? Maybe vacuums are becoming obsolete. No, what? They're not. Oh but maybe they are because of those fancy steam mops and Roombas nowadays haha.

No. This is even worse than the "Fe stuff" with explicitly connecting to random people, lol. No, actually, hard to tell which is worse. :laughing:
lol. Yeah, I get it. You don't prefer to engage your imagination much. You are very concrete in this way. S type confirmed due to this and several other responses?
Yes and yes. To get more detailed here, I wish I had the time and energy to always put everything in 100% order. Once it's all in order, it's easy and automatic to maintain it, tho'.
J type. I don't think I'm wrong here. Nothing about you screams P at all. This is more insignificant, but before you were telling us that you prefer to really think about, organize and plan important decisions and might go with the flow on unimportant situations. Same as me.

Yeah, this is a no-brainer. If I can do it quicker and especially if I can do it better... definitely. It hurts my eyes to watch someone do stuff in a really shitty way. lol.
You didn't even consider how you'd feel to have to do dishes all the time just because you are better. Cool, you are not petty :p Also, T type once again?
I don't really have explanations born out of just precise definitions. That seems to miss the point to me, somehow. I mean, a system is about way more than just that. But of course, having the correct definitions is important. I just don't think I really reason "out loud" about this in my head or whatever.
I think the question was testing for Ti. Just a thought.
Hm, on second thought, I think instead of "precise", the wording I'd use would be, "concretely anchored properly". Get everything concretely identified and linked to the tangible in the correct way. And then you can reallllly get somewhere with your system, see clearly with it and use it easily to take action.
Yeah, things are so much more than the sum of their parts. They only matter as a whole.

In some cases I do want to wait with the conclusion, yes, see detail-oriented mode for coming to a decision as described earlier. I dunno if I'd call it a puzzle though... That wording is very "off" to me, it is off-putting almost. It sounds like introducing uncertainty on a level that I do not care for. I instead call it having covered all the details of the situation or topic or issue. But yeah I like to have the feel of having covered it all. It can get compulsive drowning in the details even.
Same, sometimes I get compulsive drowning in details. Been told by friends pretty often that I'm being too "technical" about a topic when I am just trying to explain my point on it. Perhaps to them, they are meaningless details or details that are "false proving" the point.

Wow that was A LOT, but very interesting! My thoughts as a whole: we do share similarities such as wanting fairness, being impatient when we can't get our point across to others, and being passionate about defending wronged loved ones. However, I think we might share more differences as a whole? You're very grounded. You don't let your imagination get the best of you, preferring to react based on the tangible. I haven't really seen your mind wander involuntarily or your feelings getting worked up. I don't even really see you point out many value judgments. You mention impartiality a lot. Wondering, could the type others have typed you as be ISTP?
 

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@grumpytiger

I'm back haha. I can't help you with your type (I know very little about typology compared with other more knowledgeable users here). Like I mentioned before though, I could compare and contrast where us two "ISTJs" are similar and are different. If you think I'm INFJ, then maybe you can find some clues via this method lol.
Hey, thanks for this. :) I'll respond to your points now and elaborate on my motivations etc. where it needs clarification. A couple of questions, not many. And I hope you also figured out some more things about yourself by doing this. :)


I do this too but not really proud of it or anything. It's more because I feel shy and watched. So I sort of close up like a clam.
Oh, I'm more just oblivious about people, focused on the task/goal instead. I did have a period where I did not feel good socially around people but I fixed that later. It is funny, even then I did not explicitly feel shy or emotional about it, I simply just did not feel comfortable around people and so I withdrew and tuned out more than when I'm just focused on a task.


Yup, still same. Gotta show those weirdos we're not easy targets lol.
Lol. For me it's quite automatic instinct, I just became conscious of it one day about how I so naturally draw up boundaries in my body language when out around people. Btw I was once discussing with a friend of mine once about how she doesn't know how not to look open to these long convos with strangers. She had a problem there lol, because she also doesn't always want to have such convos... I'm not sure about her type though.


Why don't you want to talk? It gets boring? What sort of conversations are you used to having? Do you text a lot all day or no? I text my friends all day. It gets up to the point of 200+ messages a day, no joke lol. We just talk about nothing and everything.
It gets draining, since as I said I'm more spatial than verbal. Tbh, I read that's a guy thing. :laughing: (Even tho' I'm clearly not male.)

I don't text like that all day, no, by default I get very oblivious of people, focused on work and other tasks and activities instead. But I did have periods where some friend of mine would really want to talk to me and I was responsive to that always, so then we did chat a lot in writing. That's easier than IRL talking for sure, too, so I find it fun enough. Though it's still the other party that will talk (write) a lot more compared to me. But I'm engaged in the listening (and problem solving silently, lol) and will gladly add my input too sometimes.

I am trying to be less oblivious lately, more actively building relationships, but it's quite a confusing area to me still, tho' I've learned some things already about people's reactions etc.


Same, I always have my guard up at work. Never know if something you say can be used to someone else's advantage.
Well, I have a guard up anyway by default. Formal communication just fits work for me more. It's hard/unnatural for me to mix that with personal stuff.


This seems pretty obviously logical to me, but maybe not to all. Perhaps some people still like to keep options open even with serious decisions. Personally, if it's a very important decision like a new job, buying a house, a car, having a kid, etc...I would also like to make the decision, feel good about it and do it. Second guessing at those things would just cause more headaches and drama.
Yeah some people will change even such very important decisions easily. That kind of person drives me crazy (experience here).


So for important decisions, you consider all the details, store them for "categorization and usage" later? For not as important decisions, you decide right away (feeling based?) Like you feel impatient and want to get it over with? I also over-analyze all important decisions to smithereens. I need to see all sides of it, the pros and cons, the future impact, and how it will make me and others feel. You mention your information gathering process is pretty devoid of emotion. That's very different from me. I don't think I often just go "huh" to something and don't feel any sort of feeling or emotion, or at least some sort of value based evaluation of it. When you watch really sad videos, do you tend to cry and feel so sad even though it's a video, or do you kind of just think about it afterward?
No, it doesn't entirely depend on how important the decision is. I can decide without getting into the details about some important stuff, sometimes. It depends on how much I find I need to familiarize myself with the details of options.

I'm not sure if the quick deciding involves feelings. It's logical still, not based in complex values, it just feels decisive instead of being entirely neutral, because important priorities pop out - still in a rather organized fashion tho'. Idk if the priorities involve feeling too somewhere. But yes, it also involves a bit of impatience compared to the patient neutral detail-oriented mode. I was thinking it's that Te kind of impatience, lol. Because I want to waste no more time, yeah.

To answer your other question on considering details, while I familiarize myself with something, I absorb and identify the concrete details and while I do that, I also try to place them properly, but with very new stuff often it takes a while before I can give them their final place. It doesn't feel like overanalyzing tho', it's just a patient process of absorbing, identifying and placing-organizing the details. I don't try to see sides, it's just one view always.

Heh I don't consciously think much about how it makes me or others feel. I agree you seem different there. :)

As for sad videos, I don't usually react to them. I'd have to be in some special mindset to react like that emotionally, it doesn't happen often or easily.


Aren't ISTJs known to be very passionate about justice and also when they expect something and it turns out to be a bad surprise, they really dislike it? I am similar to you here. When I plan so much and so hard for something, and it blows up on me, I feel floored because I don't know how to solve the problem.
I'm not sure I'd call myself passionate per se (? depends on what you mean by this wording) but I do care a lot about justice, yes. It can make me really involved sometimes.

Yes, I do REALLY dislike it when I expect something and it turns out wrong. I'll get pissed off and often act it out a bit for a couple of seconds (if it isn't a very formal situation where one just can't do that). I don't really have to plan too hard for this, lol, I have expectations without that too. Otoh, I don't feel floored, just pissed off, then I go and solve the problem.


I know nobody likes unfairness, but many people will brush it off as due to some other reasoning that can't be helped and look at it from another angle and such. Like if you made cookies for a friend on her birthday and sang a song for her, and on your birthday, she didn't even text you and later on just brushed it off casually. That sort of thing would boil my blood too. Some of my friends would feel it's sad and unfair, but would be like oh well, moving on.
Actually I'm only able to get angry when I can make judgments in my default way. If the situation is too personal and especially if totally unexpected like that, I'm often unable to get angry for a while. I'll be subtly disoriented and I'll have any possible emotional reactions go into denial automatically (not a conscious mechanism). Then when I'm able to see the situation more clearly later is when I'll get angry actually, make my judgment on how it was wrong, and will prefer to do something about it. The example is pretty nasty, for sure. As soon as I'm able to react to it, I'd confront them about it and it's possible I'd cut them off entirely, depending on their reaction. I would not be able to simply move on.

So yeah, I get your approach there. Those friends you mention are really bad with enabling shit behaviour. It also doesn't do any good for them, they'll probably be taken advantage of again later.


Principled consistency. Once again, not to just judge by behaviors, but isn't this sort of behavior known to be caused by the ISTJ's thought process? They are willing to endure things they don't really like because of the principle of the matter?
That fits me very much, yeah. You too?


Aggression + logic
Interesting.
Why? :)

The word that people specifically use for me is "forceful", to be more precise.

I think this combination sounds quite Te-ish though I don't think it'd be definitely specific to that.



I think this doesn't have anything to do with typology, but it is cool that you are considering it as improving. I also strive for the same thing. I think gift wrapping is pointless as heck, but still do it these days for "the thought that counts". I know people like nicely wrapped things.
Err, maybe you misread something? I'm not following your lines here. I was talking about the ability to be reflective more in a certain way, in a more deep-internally attuned way (sorry for being vague on this, I don't entirely "get" it myself), and by being more considered I meant act in a more careful way in certain situations, considering more outcomes for some people-related stuff and be prepared for them more. The empathy thing is separate from that actually, but it is somehow linked to it a bit.

I don't follow how gift wrapping came up as an example here. :)


Slow process of information. Si? Ti? Do you assume much? Do you jump to conclusions much? Or do you sort of delay your judgment or reaction until you're sure you've gathered enough data?
I don't like to assume... I'd rather ascertain what assumptions the logic depends on in something. I do jump to conclusions easily when I'm already somewhat familiar with the topic and tbh I enjoy making the conclusions and declaring them (very Te I guess). I will delay the judgment and reaction when I'm unfamiliar with the topic - then I will collect the concrete details first.


Ohohoho. Ehem. Okay moving on :p There's A LOT OF SENSORY experience preferred here. Like almost all of your preferences on your perfect day are engaging the senses. However, I don't really see anything that is zooming into a certain personal impression, except maybe for that adventure part. Isn't most of it just straight up sensory activities? Do you think this indicates Se or Si? Or not at all?
Lool. Well I was pretty honest there. :p Oh yeah, some sensory experiences in there, I would agree. Whatever kind of S. Then if you notice, quite some of it is about work and competitiveness and money. How do you see personal impressions in the adventure part, I'm really curious about this, please say more on this. :) To me that part is actually just sensory by default but since I'd be doing it with my SO, it'd somehow be "more" than that... hard to put this into words. I don't really see conscious personal impressions, not good at that anyway.


Interestinggg. Very, very different from how I would respond. I want a world free from hunger, pain and suffering. You want a world where things can constantly be improved and done.
Yes. And well if the world was free from hunger, that doesn't make it perfect yet. But yes that's a good goal too.

Tbh, I also don't want to bother with wasting time* on imagining perfect things, I'd rather take action for specific goals instead.

*: my pov, I don't want to disparage imaginative people here.


Same as above. Very different. Immediately, one giant scenario encompassing all little scenarios popped into my mind. Fire, war, death, hunger, disease, etc. Fascinating how my imagination can turn dark so quickly.
That's somehow very cool about your scenarios being so linked-organized with each other. :)


Wow, you're really lucky and I do mean that. I wish I had the physical (or perhaps it's mental) ability to be more aware. Tunnel vision sucks.
Thanks. :) Btw this sounds like consistent pattern so far on differences in S/N for us. More obvious (you mention it more often) than on T/F, though you noted differences on that too.


Okay, so you want to be engaging your body and mind, not just letting the senses envelope you. Hmmm. So you want to take action. TJ type?
Yeah maybe.


I do this too. I subconsciously compare and contrast most things I see or otherwise sense. I think that's where those headstrong expectations and firm standards of the self and others partially originates from. Where in order to compare and contrast, you'd need to already have some map inside your head of what each category of "object" is. I don't think everybody has such a refined map inside their mind. Some people might look at the bottle and their mind really does drift to things vaguely related to a bottle but not drift to the memory of another bottle.
Hm I think I compare more than contrast... if that makes sense. I don't relate to this wording about having the mind drift to the memory of another bottle. It's more like, all the previous bottles I've seen before create sensory templates for me and that's what I orient by. If I do think of something, it's not drifting (I prefer it not to be, too), it better be a specific and clear concrete match or otherwise concrete distinctions.

As for the sensory templates... My perception is still full of sensory details, to be clear. The more sensory detail, the better and quicker I identify the stuff. The more abstract and general, lacking direct sensory detail, the worse I will be.

I'm not sure where the expectations and standards come from for me. I mean, yes, in part definitely from the structures and templates I describe. In part from me expecting things will be organized and placed there where they last were, or otherwise functioning as before. And in part from a sense of justice, responsibilities and competitiveness.


Same for me. I'm not usually comfortable with unfamiliar bad situations. Where I need to solve something but haven't been given the thorough instructions for. However, when forced to do it, there's no choice but to buckle down and extract every ounce of resource that is available to best complete the task at hand.
I doubt anyone is comfortable per se with unfamiliar bad situations. :laughing: Even if you don't fret too much about it, it's something that will activate you, not going to just let you sit there comfortable. As for your example with the instructions, that's not what I called crisis/pressure mode, that's more like something suddenly happened and have to solve that. Possibly involving managing several people as well. I do this actually decently well.

With that, and with your example too, I will be focused on problem solving naturally. With personal people-related situations this is harder though... But yes, in impersonal stuff, I more easily get by without thorough instructions, I'll just do my patient detail-oriented analysis. I prefer to have all information of course, so nothing bad could happen from making the wrong move or something. In a fast-moving crisis situation though I will be in the more decisive mode, not in the detail oriented mode, acting on way less information. Otoh yes, reading instructions can be faster and more comfortable for me than having to experiment with the object.


Hmmm, so you don't try to avoid conflict. I was tempted to relate this to Fe but nah, I remembered Fe isn't directly causing stuff like this. I actually can't think of any other function that could cause aggression. Maybe it's not explainable by functions, just like how good vs evil cannot be explained by functions. That's interesting to think about.
What did you want to relate to Fe?

Aggression... I think it's linked to Te and Se sometimes. Logical version more to Te, I guess.


So you only really fully engage in convincing others mode when it's for a cause you really care about. Once again, tempted to relate this to Fi, but something seems too surface level about doing that. It's just Fe users are going to seeking input from others naturally, and you just don't seem to have mentioned much about this aspect.
Good points on all that.


Yeah I didn't personally see high Fe in your responses either. Also, you're definitely a T type. That much I know. You mentioned several times your outlook on things don't really involve much feelings, emotions, or value judgments.
Hahahah high Fe for me, noo.


I'm very different from you here too. I get really sensitive when I feel attacked. I try to remain calm as a facade, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't lol.
I see. :) For me, I think the toughness is due to that very logical/impersonal orientation.


I'm like this often as well. When something makes total logical sense, and despite this in front of their eyes, people still choose to ignore it and think in an opposite way, I get really upset as well. I do try to win them over by explaining it again or in a different format. Not sure why it matters so much to me what they think. Maybe I seek validation. Does it matter to you? Or are you just more upset that they're not being logical?
I don't seek validation, I'm not even aware of the existence of such a thing (validation) in most situations, or what the validation even really would be needed for lol. It's more like about imposing the um, correct view of things. And simply get irritated about resistance to that. I see such resistance as unreasonable, not logical, yeah. Even though yes I am open to new facts and processing them, and I always say that strong arguments can convince me. Still overall I look imposing and what I do there with that goes quite against seeking validation really since it can make me disliked sometimes. I don't have any bad intentions with doing this though...


lol. Yeah, I get it. You don't prefer to engage your imagination much. You are very concrete in this way. S type confirmed due to this and several other responses?
There's quite a consensus on this actually with people who know me.


J type. I don't think I'm wrong here. Nothing about you screams P at all. This is more insignificant, but before you were telling us that you prefer to really think about, organize and plan important decisions and might go with the flow on unimportant situations. Same as me.
I'm not sure what it means to "go with the flow". Can you elaborate on this for me?

I will make decisions on quite some less important things too, not just when buying a house. Like I described in my post later about my decision-making, I will plan things for optimizing actions etc. I will just more easily shift around details of these decisions than with important stuff.


You didn't even consider how you'd feel to have to do dishes all the time just because you are better. Cool, you are not petty :p Also, T type once again?
Sorry, I didn't understand this bit: "you'd feel to have to do dishes all the time just because you are better", can you rephrase for me? And thanks. :)


I think the question was testing for Ti. Just a thought.
Yah, probably.


Yeah, things are so much more than the sum of their parts. They only matter as a whole.
I would actually not say that myself, and I wasn't implying that at all in what I wrote. I care about the concrete parts too. I'm very reductionist in this way but it does arrive to a "whole" in a way - I can quickly overview things at least when I'm already familiar with them. A nice overall system simplifying things to be able to make and declare quick conclusions.

Do you relate to the concrete anchoring?


Same, sometimes I get compulsive drowning in details. Been told by friends pretty often that I'm being too "technical" about a topic when I am just trying to explain my point on it. Perhaps to them, they are meaningless details or details that are "false proving" the point.
I was told that too when I let blog posts of mine be read by some other people. They thought I was trying to show off with the technical wording. :dry:


Wow that was A LOT, but very interesting! My thoughts as a whole: we do share similarities such as wanting fairness, being impatient when we can't get our point across to others, and being passionate about defending wronged loved ones. However, I think we might share more differences as a whole? You're very grounded. You don't let your imagination get the best of you, preferring to react based on the tangible. I haven't really seen your mind wander involuntarily or your feelings getting worked up. I don't even really see you point out many value judgments. You mention impartiality a lot. Wondering, could the type others have typed you as be ISTP?
Glad you found it interesting. :) I agree with your summary.

"You don't let your imagination get the best of you" - I'd change this to, "not letting feelings get the best of me". Not that I have many feelings, but imagination just doesn't even ever get in the way lol. I'm very low on it in that sense.

No, they weren't typing me as ISTP. What made you think of ISTP with that?
 

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@grumpytiger

That fits me very much, yeah. You too?
Sure. There are many times where I do things I don't like because of the principle or because it's the traditional thing to do, but I don't think our motivations for doing so are the same. For me, it's because I seek validation from others. I don't want them to view me negatively because I broke the status quo.

Why? :) The word that people specifically use for me is "forceful", to be more precise. I think this combination sounds quite Te-ish though I don't think it'd be definitely specific to that.
Just interesting because of how different we are in this aspect. I'm not a generally aggressive person. I'm too meek for that. I've been told by my ESTP sister that I sometimes let people walk over me. She is very aggressive lol. She will be the type to fight the person that offended me first, then ask the questions later haha. Like you mentioned, aggression could be linked to Te and Se.
Err, maybe you misread something? I'm not following your lines here. I was talking about the ability to be reflective more in a certain way, in a more deep-internally attuned way (sorry for being vague on this, I don't entirely "get" it myself), and by being more considered I meant act in a more careful way in certain situations, considering more outcomes for some people-related stuff and be prepared for them more. The empathy thing is separate from that actually, but it is somehow linked to it a bit.

I don't follow how gift wrapping came up as an example here. :)
Oh yeah, I did misread. I thought you meant you were working on consideration of others' feelings more, hence the example with the gift wrap.

How do you see personal impressions in the adventure part, I'm really curious about this, please say more on this. :) To me that part is actually just sensory by default but since I'd be doing it with my SO, it'd somehow be "more" than that... hard to put this into words. I don't really see conscious personal impressions, not good at that anyway.
Oh, it was purely from my imagination. I imagined that the adventure was more personal than the other events like racing and work. That it was something you zoomed into for special sensory and value purposes, and not just to complete the task at hand. What kind of adventure were you referring to?

What did you want to relate to Fe?
That you aren't conflict-avoiding, so that had to mean you don't mind environments that are not harmonious by default. However, I changed my mind because that doesn't always hold true. Bullies aren't conflict-avoiding and they can still be high Fe users, if they are always seeking input from others like their bully friends.

I'm not sure what it means to "go with the flow". Can you elaborate on this for me?
"I will just more easily shift around details of these decisions than with important stuff." <--- This pretty much.

Sorry, I didn't understand this bit: "you'd feel to have to do dishes all the time just because you are better", can you rephrase for me?
Oh, like you wouldn't feel it's unfair to do all the work just because the other party is incapable or less productive than you? You don't let emotions get in the way of accomplishing what needs to be done.

Do you relate to the concrete anchoring?
Do you mean something like the "bottom up approach" by "concrete anchoring"? Like making sure you are building up to a good conclusion by examining the validity of the parts that eventually make up the whole? If so, yes in some things. However, some things just don't make sense but are still important I would say. Like faith.

No, they weren't typing me as ISTP. What made you think of ISTP with that?
Oh nevermind, why did I write that? lol. If anything, I should have wrote ESTJ. I think I wrote ISTP before because I was focusing too much on your "I need to get things done", thinking that's Se dominant talk. Really though, I have to examine the whole picture because duh, Te not Ti. ESTJ?
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Sure. There are many times where I do things I don't like because of the principle or because it's the traditional thing to do, but I don't think our motivations for doing so are the same. For me, it's because I seek validation from others. I don't want them to view me negatively because I broke the status quo.
OK, yeah, I just simply view these as important rules to go by. Validation is not on my mind with it. That kind of Fe stuff is still so foreign to me. :)


Just interesting because of how different we are in this aspect. I'm not a generally aggressive person. I'm too meek for that. I've been told by my ESTP sister that I sometimes let people walk over me. She is very aggressive lol. She will be the type to fight the person that offended me first, then ask the questions later haha. Like you mentioned, aggression could be linked to Te and Se.
You do come off as more soft/adaptable to people. Your sister sounds cool with being so protective. :) I can be exactly like that too sometimes. Only for people who I really care about, though. Then I'm like that, fight then ask questions later... lol. Though I do have an idea in mind as to what's going on when I do this fighting, it can turn out I should've asked more. But usually I am fine with what I did (the fight). :p For others (like those ostracized people or just people who others pick on without reason and who can't defend themselves), I can be a bit more careful though eventually yes it does come out to a fight too, easily. Or sooner than that, but still a bit more careful on the whole usually (not always tho', idk what it depends on).

Does your sister still keep her head at least to some degree in this protective fight mode? I do, even if it's like "fight then ask questions only afterwards". I mean it's impulsive seeming that way but there is still an appraisal of the situation with some logic too. It usually takes more for me to go totally in the mode where I do this fight without any logical analysis first and just being totally hot-headed like that but it happened before. And then yes it can even come with some value judgments actually that I don't think of let alone voice by default. Then afterwards, if it turns out it wasn't as big a deal as it originally seemed (this happened too), I'm like, what. Or in other words, an example of really losing head. :unsure: But usually, it's worth the fight, I don't tend to regret anything in most cases.

As a quick comparison... my brother is the type that loses their head fast and goes hot-headed and emotional. He wanted to protect me once from something he thought was shit, and that was actually really nice of him, but unfortunately he lost his head so much that he almost got arrested for it. It was nice though, yeah, even if "silly" without 1) appraising the situation first (it did not require the approach he was doing and it was kind of getting in the way actually) 2) considering any likely bad consequences, including consequences to himself. So no, I'm not like this... but I can sometimes almost admire such people who care this much for a cause.


Oh yeah, I did misread. I thought you meant you were working on consideration of others' feelings more, hence the example with the gift wrap.
I guessed you meant that. I'm not sure how I'd be more considerate other than adding more rules on behaviour but then they have to have a point first... and it's still not the same as being directly considerate of the feelings. Just indirectly. But yes the more considered-reflective attitude I mentioned can contribute to doing this better (in this indirect way by reflecting on things and then finding what to change about behaviour).

Otoh, forget this bit, because I can't even put this into words well as to what this attitude or trait really constitutes at all. :confused: The thing that the question originally asked about, as to what trait would balance out my personality. :confused:


Oh, it was purely from my imagination. I imagined that the adventure was more personal than the other events like racing and work. That it was something you zoomed into for special sensory and value purposes, and not just to complete the task at hand. What kind of adventure were you referring to?
Yeah that bit is not so task-oriented, just fun and special, and since it'd be with SO and it'd be just the two of us (also that's why it's special) it'd be more personal for sure. That to me is just vaguely seen though and I'd focus on the fun of the adventure more.


That you aren't conflict-avoiding, so that had to mean you don't mind environments that are not harmonious by default. However, I changed my mind because that doesn't always hold true. Bullies aren't conflict-avoiding and they can still be high Fe users, if they are always seeking input from others like their bully friends.
Makes sense.


"I will just more easily shift around details of these decisions than with important stuff." <--- This pretty much.
Oh but I don't know if that's the same as going with the flow. I have to make the new plan first even if it's only a quick draft after all. But I follow that draft. It may take only one second or two to adapt the plan and I can like the "challenge" of it (not a big challenge usually) but it's still me "stopping", doesn't that break the whatever flow? :) I don't know if it's seen externally that I do this reorientation... I guess only if I take longer than that 1-2 seconds. I do know that it can be noticed sometimes, yes. And I myself notice my own delay too if I have to change direction/plan when I am in the "neutral detail-oriented mode". I can really get stuck then... for a short time but realllly stuck before I can switch, omg. It feels silly. But those plans are more detailed too, worked out down to the last detail with me following it really strictly.

What do you think, what is "going with the flow" supposed to mean?

I also described how I do the decisions, the shifting etc. in a post where I added to OP because I skipped part of the question accidentally, here.


I'm thinking more now, maybe when I'm out there and really just managing/maneuvering my way around stuff, there is actually no delay in deciding the maneuver, I see things around me (whatever objects and people) and I know what to direction to pick immediately. When it's totally immediate stuff - no planning beyond the moment then! If anything I'm going to have to deal with is out of sight but still quite immediate (it is very tangible and/or going to have to deal with it soon), then it's still linked to the immediate situation and idk if that's really a plan still. Maybe that's "go with the flow" but to me it still has an aim, to get to some (immediate or at least very tangible) goal. It's not relaxed-loose in any way at all like "flow" makes me think of, because it's more forceful than that, but maybe that doesn't matter for this "flow" thing? BTW that also involves that more impatient "decisive mode" I mentioned earlier.

But the "neutral" mode really is not "going with the flow". And I'm like 50/50 with these modes. :confused:


Oh, like you wouldn't feel it's unfair to do all the work just because the other party is incapable or less productive than you? You don't let emotions get in the way of accomplishing what needs to be done.
No, not unfair, I don't mind doing something that's easier for me so not unfair that way. And they can contribute in some other way. Division of labour. :) I mean, even if it's done in some other way and not by contribution to chores, it's still fine. My idea of what "labour" means in this context is pretty flexible. :laughing: I mean, as long as I feel I'm paid attention to in some meaningful enough way (here's a value judgment for you), I'd be fine. Oh and that assumes it's someone close to me. I forgot the case where it's not someone close to me... then I just pay attention to fairness in division of labour. But again, it can be a decently flexible idea of that there.


Do you mean something like the "bottom up approach" by "concrete anchoring"? Like making sure you are building up to a good conclusion by examining the validity of the parts that eventually make up the whole? If so, yes in some things. However, some things just don't make sense but are still important I would say. Like faith.
Yeah, it's pretty "bottom up". I don't know what you mean by examining the validity of the parts though. Tell me more on that? What I meant is that each part has to exist in a tangible or measurable or otherwise directly definable way - at the minimum, I can at least directly point to the thing as it exists.

As for "faith"... I could actually do a technical analysis of that too. :th_woot: Like, first defining what counts as "faith", and what doesn't, then examine how it may work in the brain, and then in this established context, make an analysis about its role in society, how it is useful and necessary. So yes, it can make sense.


Oh nevermind, why did I write that? lol. If anything, I should have wrote ESTJ. I think I wrote ISTP before because I was focusing too much on your "I need to get things done", thinking that's Se dominant talk. Really though, I have to examine the whole picture because duh, Te not Ti. ESTJ?
No worries. :) ISTP is Se auxiliary, were you trying to write ESTP originally? Hmm as for ESTJ (and ESTP if you meant that originally), do I come off this much "I need to get things done", like, is that the primary "vibe" you get about me? If so, can you say more on how/why that seems primary to you?
 

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@grumpytiger

You do come off as more soft/adaptable to people. Your sister sounds cool with being so protective. :) I can be exactly like that too sometimes. Only for people who I really care about, though. Then I'm like that, fight then ask questions later... lol. Though I do have an idea in mind as to what's going on when I do this fighting, it can turn out I should've asked more. But usually I am fine with what I did (the fight). :p For others (like those ostracized people or just people who others pick on without reason and who can't defend themselves), I can be a bit more careful though eventually yes it does come out to a fight too, easily. Or sooner than that, but still a bit more careful on the whole usually (not always tho', idk what it depends on).
That's cool that you defend people who aren't as headstrong :)

Does your sister still keep her head at least to some degree in this protective fight mode? I do, even if it's like "fight then ask questions only afterwards". I mean it's impulsive seeming that way but there is still an appraisal of the situation with some logic too. It usually takes more for me to go totally in the mode where I do this fight without any logical analysis first and just being totally hot-headed like that but it happened before. And then yes it can even come with some value judgments actually that I don't think of let alone voice by default. Then afterwards, if it turns out it wasn't as big a deal as it originally seemed (this happened too), I'm like, what. Or in other words, an example of really losing head. :unsure: But usually, it's worth the fight, I don't tend to regret anything in most cases.
To others, it might seem like she overreacts, but to her, she's very sure of where she stands. To her, her cause is worth it so she doesn't usually regret making a ruckus lol. Sometimes, I feel overwhelmed by her aggression, but I realize it comes from a good place so I usually support her in it lol.

As a quick comparison... my brother is the type that loses their head fast and goes hot-headed and emotional. He wanted to protect me once from something he thought was shit, and that was actually really nice of him, but unfortunately he lost his head so much that he almost got arrested for it. It was nice though, yeah, even if "silly" without 1) appraising the situation first (it did not require the approach he was doing and it was kind of getting in the way actually) 2) considering any likely bad consequences, including consequences to himself. So no, I'm not like this... but I can sometimes almost admire such people who care this much for a cause.
Yeah, I think this is a good example of completely losing your head. Where your emotions at the moment are so strong, you don't care to think of the future consequences. I also admire the intensity of the protective feeling of your brother, but I would think it's best to consider the consequences and how it will eventually affect not only the person themselves, but also those around them. We have to live with our actions of today, tomorrow.

Otoh, forget this bit, because I can't even put this into words well as to what this attitude or trait really constitutes at all. :confused: The thing that the question originally asked about, as to what trait would balance out my personality. :confused:
Haha okay. I got a sense it was based on consideration relating others, but other than that I don't really know.

Oh but I don't know if that's the same as going with the flow. I have to make the new plan first even if it's only a quick draft after all. But I follow that draft. It may take only one second or two to adapt the plan and I can like the "challenge" of it (not a big challenge usually) but it's still me "stopping", doesn't that break the whatever flow? :) I don't know if it's seen externally that I do this reorientation... I guess only if I take longer than that 1-2 seconds. I do know that it can be noticed sometimes, yes. And I myself notice my own delay too if I have to change direction/plan when I am in the "neutral detail-oriented mode". I can really get stuck then... for a short time but realllly stuck before I can switch, omg. It feels silly. But those plans are more detailed too, worked out down to the last detail with me following it really strictly.
I guess this indicates that you're a J? Even in supposedly care-free moments, you still consciously have a plan, even if it's a vague one.
What do you think, what is "going with the flow" supposed to mean?
Umm, I guess to me it pretty much means thinking on your feet. Not really planning anything out, but deciding what to do when you get there. Making the best of a given number of situations when you are faced with them. Kind of letting life give you your fate instead of trying to control what fate you would face later on?

I'm thinking more now, maybe when I'm out there and really just managing/maneuvering my way around stuff, there is actually no delay in deciding the maneuver, I see things around me (whatever objects and people) and I know what to direction to pick immediately. When it's totally immediate stuff - no planning beyond the moment then! If anything I'm going to have to deal with is out of sight but still quite immediate (it is very tangible and/or going to have to deal with it soon), then it's still linked to the immediate situation and idk if that's really a plan still. Maybe that's "go with the flow" but to me it still has an aim, to get to some (immediate or at least very tangible) goal. It's not relaxed-loose in any way at all like "flow" makes me think of, because it's more forceful than that, but maybe that doesn't matter for this "flow" thing? BTW that also involves that more impatient "decisive mode" I mentioned earlier.
Yeah, I think impatience and wanting to make decisions is a way of trying to get closure on a situation. Similar to when the personality questions ask "would you rather take on multiple projects or finish one first before attempting another". I'm like this too. I don't like open ended things in this instance. It makes me uncomfortable. I need closure.

No, not unfair, I don't mind doing something that's easier for me so not unfair that way. And they can contribute in some other way. Division of labour. :) I mean, even if it's done in some other way and not by contribution to chores, it's still fine. My idea of what "labour" means in this context is pretty flexible. :laughing: I mean, as long as I feel I'm paid attention to in some meaningful enough way (here's a value judgment for you), I'd be fine. Oh and that assumes it's someone close to me. I forgot the case where it's not someone close to me... then I just pay attention to fairness in division of labour. But again, it can be a decently flexible idea of that there.
I understand. Yeah, it doesn't have to be that specific task. Could be another task but as long as it ends up being fair.

Yeah, it's pretty "bottom up". I don't know what you mean by examining the validity of the parts though. Tell me more on that? What I meant is that each part has to exist in a tangible or measurable or otherwise directly definable way - at the minimum, I can at least directly point to the thing as it exists.
I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but I feel like we are? I think I build up to my decisions in a similar way. I can't just "get there" out of nowhere like I've heard Intuitive people doing a lot. I don't usually jump from A-Z and not know how I got to Z. It usually starts from A for me, then B, then C. Each letter from A to Z has to be logically consistent in order for me to be confident that Z is valid. I guess for me, I'm using the alphabet as my symbol to describe this and for you, it's concrete anchor points. Is it the same or am I misunderstanding?

As for "faith"... I could actually do a technical analysis of that too. :th_woot: Like, first defining what counts as "faith", and what doesn't, then examine how it may work in the brain, and then in this established context, make an analysis about its role in society, how it is useful and necessary. So yes, it can make sense.
Interesting. For me, I don't bother Thinking about faith in that way (even though I am aware it can be done). I just don't find meaning in it, because then I feel like it wouldn't be Faith anymore if you are trying to prove it. By attempting to prove it, you let into your life speculation, which is in a way a form of disproving it before you can finally prove it. If that makes sense.

No worries. :) ISTP is Se auxiliary, were you trying to write ESTP originally? Hmm as for ESTJ (and ESTP if you meant that originally), do I come off this much "I need to get things done", like, is that the primary "vibe" you get about me? If so, can you say more on how/why that seems primary to you?
I was thinking too much about how you seem to be such a "doer" that it made me think of an introverted Se type, but actually nah, there's no valid basis in that besides my mind wandering, so you can ignore that lol.

To elaborate, I get a sense that you put feelings aside and just sort of do. I could be wrong, but from the posts I've read from you, you don't seem to contemplate things for a long time. You said you were impatient and want to make decisions quickly. You just want it accomplished quickly (efficiency?). Also, are you an introvert or extrovert? Do you know? Anyway, I believe we both agree you are a high Te user.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
@Bunniculla

OK so I didn't even see your reply for a while as I was not visiting the forum. Thanks :)


To others, it might seem like she overreacts, but to her, she's very sure of where she stands. To her, her cause is worth it so she doesn't usually regret making a ruckus lol. Sometimes, I feel overwhelmed by her aggression, but I realize it comes from a good place so I usually support her in it lol.
I don't necessarily mind aggression per se (unless obviously negative, of course), and if the cause is good, cool.


Yeah, I think this is a good example of completely losing your head. Where your emotions at the moment are so strong, you don't care to think of the future consequences. I also admire the intensity of the protective feeling of your brother, but I would think it's best to consider the consequences and how it will eventually affect not only the person themselves, but also those around them. We have to live with our actions of today, tomorrow.
I think he considered the consequences to himself even less.


Haha okay. I got a sense it was based on consideration relating others, but other than that I don't really know.
I might've mixed two things in one... not all of it is just about consideration of others. Just some reflective ability for foresight about people.


I guess this indicates that you're a J? Even in supposedly care-free moments, you still consciously have a plan, even if it's a vague one.
A plan is never vague for me heh. It's either detailed or not detailed but not vague. It still consists of specific points.

I do agree this is J stuff.


Umm, I guess to me it pretty much means thinking on your feet. Not really planning anything out, but deciding what to do when you get there. Making the best of a given number of situations when you are faced with them. Kind of letting life give you your fate instead of trying to control what fate you would face later on?
I'm OK about thinking on my feet but not ok with letting life give me my fate... are you?

It's totally "ew" to me really. This go with the flow thing lol


Yeah, I think impatience and wanting to make decisions is a way of trying to get closure on a situation. Similar to when the personality questions ask "would you rather take on multiple projects or finish one first before attempting another". I'm like this too. I don't like open ended things in this instance. It makes me uncomfortable. I need closure.
Out of curiosity. Do you ever like open ended things? Because you said "in this instance" you don't. Implying in other instances you do?

Actually the decisive mode is better with (pretending of) multitasking than the neutral detail-oriented mode. It can handle a few objects at once (up to a limit), too.

And I said "pretending" because it's still all held together in my head.


I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing, but I feel like we are? I think I build up to my decisions in a similar way. I can't just "get there" out of nowhere like I've heard Intuitive people doing a lot. I don't usually jump from A-Z and not know how I got to Z. It usually starts from A for me, then B, then C. Each letter from A to Z has to be logically consistent in order for me to be confident that Z is valid. I guess for me, I'm using the alphabet as my symbol to describe this and for you, it's concrete anchor points. Is it the same or am I misunderstanding?
What are your A, B, ... Z? Are they objects that are tangible or measurable or otherwise directly definable?

I was not talking about decision-making here btw. The original context was building up understanding bottom-up. I do that in my neutral mode.


Interesting. For me, I don't bother Thinking about faith in that way (even though I am aware it can be done). I just don't find meaning in it, because then I feel like it wouldn't be Faith anymore if you are trying to prove it. By attempting to prove it, you let into your life speculation, which is in a way a form of disproving it before you can finally prove it. If that makes sense.
Sorry, I don't really follow this. Sounds like Feelings based ideas with "it wouldn't be Faith anymore if you are trying to prove it". Feeling cognition being against the objective robotic dissecting. :laughing:


I was thinking too much about how you seem to be such a "doer" that it made me think of an introverted Se type, but actually nah, there's no valid basis in that besides my mind wandering, so you can ignore that lol.

To elaborate, I get a sense that you put feelings aside and just sort of do. I could be wrong, but from the posts I've read from you, you don't seem to contemplate things for a long time. You said you were impatient and want to make decisions quickly. You just want it accomplished quickly (efficiency?). Also, are you an introvert or extrovert? Do you know? Anyway, I believe we both agree you are a high Te user.
I don't get into an outright contemplative or very reflective mode much, no, but I do analyze things putting it all together with those bottom-up concrete parts. That's that neutral detail-oriented mode, again. I'm not impatient or in the decisive mode all the time, just half of the time I guess lol. I'd have an issue with it if I couldn't analyze anything at all and was instead just expected to accomplish everything quickly. That's just too superficial to me.
 

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@grumpytiger

OK so I didn't even see your reply for a while as I was not visiting the forum. Thanks :)
Welcome back :)

I might've mixed two things in one... not all of it is just about consideration of others. Just some reflective ability for foresight about people.
Oh :eek:

A plan is never vague for me heh. It's either detailed or not detailed but not vague. It still consists of specific points.

I do agree this is J stuff.
So basically, you always have some sort of plan, whether detailed or not?

I'm OK about thinking on my feet but not ok with letting life give me my fate... are you?
Well, I don't like feeling powerless, but I do believe in fate to an extent. Like the condition you were born in is your fate, but how you live your life is heavily impacted by your decisions.

Out of curiosity. Do you ever like open ended things? Because you said "in this instance" you don't. Implying in other instances you do?
For important things, I need closure or else, it leaves me with an unsatisfied feeling. For unimportant things, I don't mind.

Actually the decisive mode is better with (pretending of) multitasking than the neutral detail-oriented mode. It can handle a few objects at once (up to a limit), too.

And I said "pretending" because it's still all held together in my head.
Yeah, I don't think I can "multi-task" based on its dictionary meaning. I can do a few things at one time period, but I would still think about several of those tasks at the same time. I'm not able to just switch my attention back and forth completely.

What are your A, B, ... Z? Are they objects that are tangible or measurable or otherwise directly definable?
Yes, the points would be tangible and measurable. In order for Z to be true, A must be also be true if Z was derived from A.

Sorry, I don't really follow this. Sounds like Feelings based ideas with "it wouldn't be Faith anymore if you are trying to prove it". Feeling cognition being against the objective robotic dissecting. :laughing:
Yeah, faith is extremely unique and personal to each individual. So, it cannot be objective at all. It can't be proven, or else it'd be objective facts. Even so, the value it holds to the self is what makes it important.
I don't get into an outright contemplative or very reflective mode much, no, but I do analyze things putting it all together with those bottom-up concrete parts. That's that neutral detail-oriented mode, again. I'm not impatient or in the decisive mode all the time, just half of the time I guess lol. I'd have an issue with it if I couldn't analyze anything at all and was instead just expected to accomplish everything quickly. That's just too superficial to me.
Is this related to the ISTJ skepticism we've heard so much about? That the facts have to be there and proven, before a sound decision can be made. I can relate. If I can't argue facts and can only argue my opinions and feelings, then I might as well not argue to begin with because opinions and feelings are so unique and personal to each person. There would be no point in arguing. That is, unless it was something that was very obviously important/extremely sensitive to me, and somebody just walked all over it.
 

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Welcome back :)
Hey :)

Finally got time to get to this.


So basically, you always have some sort of plan, whether detailed or not?
Yep. You?


Well, I don't like feeling powerless, but I do believe in fate to an extent. Like the condition you were born in is your fate, but how you live your life is heavily impacted by your decisions.
How I view it is, there are real physical limits to stuff in the world/life, but the limits can be stretched way further than many people would think. :kitteh:


For important things, I need closure or else, it leaves me with an unsatisfied feeling. For unimportant things, I don't mind.
Got an example of such an unimportant thing?


Yeah, I don't think I can "multi-task" based on its dictionary meaning. I can do a few things at one time period, but I would still think about several of those tasks at the same time. I'm not able to just switch my attention back and forth completely.
I do that lol, switching my attention completely, and I see each task as a "thread" and those "threads" are held together in my mind in one bunch of a task list. Then I keep track of the list.

I wouldn't be able to directly think about more than one task at the same time. If you can, you are better at multitasking than me. :p


Yes, the points would be tangible and measurable.
This is true even if this is NOT about decision-making but just about understanding of something? With the earlier example of "faith" I was using such tangible points. But I get it that for you that's different.


Yeah, faith is extremely unique and personal to each individual. So, it cannot be objective at all. It can't be proven, or else it'd be objective facts. Even so, the value it holds to the self is what makes it important.
I'm having trouble seeing the idea of faith in a personal way. :rolldeyes:


Is this related to the ISTJ skepticism we've heard so much about? That the facts have to be there and proven, before a sound decision can be made. I can relate. If I can't argue facts and can only argue my opinions and feelings, then I might as well not argue to begin with because opinions and feelings are so unique and personal to each person. There would be no point in arguing. That is, unless it was something that was very obviously important/extremely sensitive to me, and somebody just walked all over it.
I dunno if I see it as skepticism... it's more neutral than that. I don't think I pay extra attention to proving all facts, it just happens anyway.

As for facts vs opinions, heh we see this quite differently, for me my opinions are based in the tangible stuff too so they can be readily argued.

Actually, what do you mean by arguing facts, can you explain this bit more?

Also... I would not enter an argument about any feeling of mine. Even the thought sounds terrible to me somehow. I would not be able to justify the feeling objectively and I would not be able to "own" the feeling either in front of anyone in public, I'd just rather stay silent about the whole thing.
 
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