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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all, ENTJ here.

As you know, I communicate feeling through Fi. So naturally, I understand (in my Fi thinking) that I may do good things to people because they are important to me, and what makes people "important" to me are certain qualities that they possess.

Now, with Fe, I am having trouble understanding it. I am unsure if Fe does things "out of obligation" and with "wholeheartedness" or whatever since I know that it is not a subjective function.

See, I have this Fe dom friend/acquaintance/Ihonestlydon'tknow who does things for me (sometimes sacrificially) because he thinks I need it. Like for example, since I am a transplant to a new place, I know nobody. So I feel like he is taking me/inviting me to all these places because he might think I am lonely. Truthfully, I am not aware of my loneliness until at that point when I am sitting by myself and doing nothing, so he may be right.

You see, where I was from, I tended to be "the Godfather" where most people needed my help, and I supplied it to them. In turn (and it might look like a business transaction, but it's not since we really enjoy a relationship of reciprocity), my friends would help me whenever I need some sort of assistance (which is rare). Now is the first time where I do not have my resources (including my people and my posse), and I am in a vulnerable state.

Although I am thankful for his gestures (and I do express thanks by saying it and doing things for him/giving sound advice), I have this huge gut feeling that it is done out of obligation, and it makes me hugely uncomfortable. It's just that I don't want him to do things for me because "he felt that he needed to." Don't get me wrong, I am grateful.

I am a Te dom and I fear that at one point or another, I will say something offensive by accident and it could make him flip out (since he's done a lot of things for me, sacrificially) and I don't want that to happen. He doesn't deserve it. So in my mind, I'd like to be able to find a way to minimize the impact of his sacrificial actions by meeting it with some sort of reciprocity, or by not letting it "run its course" through declining help or any other way.

You see, in my perception, I do not believe in doing things "out of obligation" because I believe that if you do things, you have to genuinely "want" to do it and "wholeheartedly." If an obligation is not met with appreciation (I may be insensitive sometimes, or I may not express my thankfulness in an expected manner), he may feel unfulfilled. Disclaimer: I am by no means insinuating that there is no possibility of obligations being "wholehearted." It's just that when I think of "obligation," the word "duty" comes to mind, and I find "duty" to be antithetical to "wholeheartedness."

So I am having trouble understanding his gestures. I don't know how to receive it, how to return the favor, and how to respond to it in the best way possible.

And I don't honestly know where I stand with him, since I don't know Fe. I don't know if he does things out of obligation (he is religious) or because he really wants to do it.

With Te working with Fi, I can understand, since by Te, I would organize and make things happen for people that I like; if they need help, I will move mountains (as supported by Ni) if I needed to, and the intended goal will be the result.

Anyone help?
 

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Fe is like Te. Why do you like to organize things? Because it's your duty? Because you have to?

The reality is that you have to because if you don't the lack of organization irritates you. So you like to do it, but for what reason? The reason is because it pleases your ENTJ brain to get things organized.

The motivations of Fe are pretty much the same, but where you want things organized. Fe wants people "organized". From your Te point of view, I used the word "organized" but probably from an Fe point of view that word doesn't describe it very well.

And just like Te wants to organize things in the way it thinks best, Fe wants to organize you in the way it feels is best. And just like with Te, it doesn't care all that much if that's what the other wants too.

So when you have that gut feeling, it just is your Ni telling you that his motivations are different from what you think they should be.
 

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Fe is about tolerance, equanimity, validation, empathy, connection and social graces.

I don't think Fe-users organize people because disorganization bugs them. That seems quite Fi because being bugged is not oriented towards others. Fe-users are genuinely concerned about others' experiences and want to make everyone welcome and validated. At an unhealthy level Fe-users can commit themselves too much, be unable to establish personal boundaries and become judgemental about how others should behave towards others.

The catch is that other types can use Thinking to create logical systems whereby others have value. It can be hard to make distinctions sometimes in those cases.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Fe is like Te. Why do you like to organize things? Because it's your duty? Because you have to?
I try to organize things the best way possible; whatever has been established as "the best," I tend to work with that. If it can be improved, I will find a way to improve it.

I tend to not do things out of duty. I do things because it is what is "right" (insofar as what my principles tell me) and not just simply because I have to.

For example, if he were in my place instead (being the new "transplant"), I will take him to places and invite him to a group that I have because I know he does not have one. I see that he has a good heart, and he deserves to be treated as such. I will also ask him if he needs anything and whatnot and supply those needs, knowing that he is not as "mobile" or capable with resources as I am. All of these things I will do not out of "duty" or "obligation" but because I genuinely want to help him out. I will probably not do things that will compromise my situation (let's say we planned something over the weekend, but I got horribly sick) but I will keep my word and reschedule. If it were an emergency, that would be a different story. So you can say that I would not exercise "sacrificial obligatory" actions, but I will (maybe in someone else's point of view) engage in sacrificial actions.

The reality is that you have to because if you don't the lack of organization irritates you. So you like to do it, but for what reason? The reason is because it pleases your ENTJ brain to get things organized.
Lack of organization does irritate me. When it does, I execute/plan to execute/ get people to execute certain actions to fix the disorganization. However, in this case, lets say I switch places with him again (hypothetically), you are right in that I could see his situation as a lack of organization, since he lacks basic things. However, my desire to organize things only applies to a certain boundary, and those who do not deserve to be offered help will probably not be helped, since I see my help to be detrimental to their situation (for example, lazy people who don't want to lift a finger to fix things or whiny people who complain and do not try at all).
So, it is absolutely not a compulsion for me to help others. I help as I see fit.

The motivations of Fe are pretty much the same, but where you want things organized. Fe wants people "organized". From your Te point of view, I used the word "organized" but probably from an Fe point of view that word doesn't describe it very well.

And just like Te wants to organize things in the way it thinks best, Fe wants to organize you in the way it feels is best. And just like with Te, it doesn't care all that much if that's what the other wants too.

So when you have that gut feeling, it just is your Ni telling you that his motivations are different from what you think they should be.
So could you perhaps, offer insight on what those motivations could be?
In our situation, I tended to be his "spiritual advisor" and what not. Also, he freely expresses his ideas, life thoughts, and future plans and wants my input from me most of the time.

I do not see myself as benefitting him in some way, because it is a default paradigm for me to help out people who deserve it--I'm very impersonal with this so it is difficult for me to see why he would do these things for me.

I know this sounds ridiculous, but I am not used to people doing good things for me because frankly, I've been the one doing the good things for others as far as I can remember. As a result, I am suspicious (and I feel guilty for being suspicious).
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Fe is about tolerance, equanimity, validation, empathy, connection and social graces.

I don't think Fe-users organize people because disorganization bugs them. That seems quite Fi because being bugged is not oriented towards others. Fe-users are genuinely concerned about others' experiences and want to make everyone welcome and validated. At an unhealthy level Fe-users can commit themselves too much, be unable to establish personal boundaries and become judgemental about how others should behave towards others.

The catch is that other types can use Thinking to create logical systems whereby others have value. It can be hard to make distinctions sometimes in those cases.
So could this be the reason why I feel it is done under "obligation" or "duty?" Because Fe users see it as customary (part of social graces) and and they would understand my situation (empathy) so that they would respond by doing good things because "it is customary/expected?"

See, that to me is impersonal, because it is not "individual-focused." Since it is impersonal, the motivation is generated within established mores, and so the individual (as bad as it sounds) is not special. See, I want people to do things for me because they "want to do it" because it is "for Eosin" and not just because it is expected. Is this Fi speaking?

The difference with the way I operate is that I treat everyone special. I know it sounds weird, but I see individual needs, and I don't care much for what is expected to be done; I care for doing things because it is what the individual needs. I would help out a friend because it is for a friend (regardless of what I have to do, heck I can even place myself in an embarrassing/degradating situation if it helps them out), and not because it is what "should be done" for a friend.
 

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I'm technically not supposed to have prominent Fe, but I've scored highly on it on all the cognitive functions tests I've taken (and identify with it in general). Here's my input:

When I am with others, it is their time, and it's my time when I'm alone. This seems logical to me, in a sense, and keeps my relations uncomplicated. There's not a conscious obligation to meet others' needs so much as a compulsion or tendency; it's what seems right. I wouldn't describe it as impersonal because I'm genuinely invested in those around me, though if one person's presence is upsetting the harmony of the group, in accordance with Fe, I'll prioritize the group and become detached from the individual.

Now, going off that, perhaps he feels that you contribute to the group's harmony and wants you around.
 

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Fe is about tolerance, equanimity, validation, empathy, connection and social graces.

I don't think Fe-users organize people because disorganization bugs them. That seems quite Fi because being bugged is not oriented towards others. Fe-users are genuinely concerned about others' experiences and want to make everyone welcome and validated. At an unhealthy level Fe-users can commit themselves too much, be unable to establish personal boundaries and become judgemental about how others should behave towards others.

The catch is that other types can use Thinking to create logical systems whereby others have value. It can be hard to make distinctions sometimes in those cases.
The terms I used weren't great I think. Te likes to organize. When things are unorganized they are genuinly concerned about the chaos around them and want to make everything organized and neat. Fe is not about caring all that much. Fe dominants care because it bugs them to see other people not being as happy as they think they should be. Just like Te in the first position.

The strange thing is that when you say that Te is irritated by lack of organization everybody is just fine with that. But when you say that Fe is irritated by lack of happiness in other people, everybody tries to correct you by saying that Fe is "concerned about other people's feelings". But it's not true. An Fe dominant shows a lot of caring one moment, and the moment they have "fixed" you and moved on to another project, it's like you don't exist anymore. This is not about caring about you, but "caring" about what's wrong in you. Not the same thing if you ask me. But exactly the same thing as Te organizing things.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The terms I used weren't great I think. Te likes to organize. When things are unorganized they are genuinly concerned about the chaos around them and want to make everything organized and neat. Fe is not about caring all that much. Fe dominants care because it bugs them to see other people not being as happy as they think they should be. Just like Te in the first position.

The strange thing is that when you say that Te is irritated by lack of organization everybody is just fine with that. But when you say that Fe is irritated by lack of happiness in other people, everybody tries to correct you by saying that Fe is "concerned about other people's feelings". But it's not true. An Fe dominant shows a lot of caring one moment, and the moment they have "fixed" you and moved on to another project, it's like you don't exist anymore. This is not about caring about you, but "caring" about what's wrong in you. Not the same thing if you ask me. But exactly the same thing as Te organizing things.
@Peter I find some truth in this.
When my Fe-dom friend/acquaintance/Ihavenoidea sees me "settled" with whatever group of people he has introduced me to, he literally leaves me alone and almost ignores me the whole time. When he acknowledges that I have dietary restrictions, he suddenly shows up and tries to "fix it" by getting something I can consume. When that's settled, he disappears. It's odd behavior to me.

I mean, I'm okay being around new people, but it is not exactly the best scenario for me. I don't know these people so I have to take a while to "figure them out" before actually engaging with them.

In contrast, if he were in my place, I would spend more time being around him because I know he is around strangers, and I am aware that people are not the most comfortable around strangers. And my group would understand that, because they know I have a guest.

When I have multiple guests, I literally "work the room" and individually talk to all guests and spend time with them, to make sure they are comfortable, because I know there is awkwardness, regardless of how extroverted some people are.
 

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So could this be the reason why I feel it is done under "obligation" or "duty?" Because Fe users see it as customary (part of social graces) and and they would understand my situation (empathy) so that they would respond by doing good things because "it is customary/expected?"

See, that to me is impersonal, because it is not "individual-focused." Since it is impersonal, the motivation is generated within established mores, and so the individual (as bad as it sounds) is not special. See, I want people to do things for me because they "want to do it" because it is "for Eosin" and not just because it is expected. Is this Fi speaking?

The difference with the way I operate is that I treat everyone special. I know it sounds weird, but I see individual needs, and I don't care much for what is expected to be done; I care for doing things because it is what the individual needs. I would help out a friend because it is for a friend (regardless of what I have to do, heck I can even place myself in an embarrassing/degradating situation if it helps them out), and not because it is what "should be done" for a friend.
Yes that's Fi speaking. I hate to be put in any situation where I feel like I should be doing something. I want to help because I want to help and I see that as more meaningful than an obligation.
 
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So many negative topics about Fe lately.

I guess I kind of don't count here because I have dominant Fe, but... I mean, I do care about people. I care about... everyone? I just wouldn't say it's wrong that I desire everyone to be happy - I definitely do, and I feel some sort of "pain" I guess if that's not accomplished - but I really don't think that stops me from truly caring about people.

I do disappear after I've helped someone. I'm prone to that. Oh, you need help? Here you go. And then I'm gone. But for me this isn't because I don't care, but rather because I feel as if I'm only wanted to serve, and it don't want to annoy anyone with my prolonged presence. Maybe it's not that way for every Fe-dom, but...

I do like to fix people. I mean, I'm also a 2. I like making people smile again, improving their happiness. It makes me happy, and it makes me feel like I've made some difference. It gives me purpose in this world. But do you really think I enjoy dealing with sad feelings all the time? That I don't want to just have a friend - a single friend - who didn't depend on me emotionally, who didn't use me as that talking diary and cheering-up-machine? Gosh, I've wanted that for so long. I've finally gotten some friends who are relatively healthy and not dependent of me, but even then they end up turning to me when they need encouragement or help or advice, or whatever, and... I don't love them for it any less, and in the moment I enjoy helping them, but other times I go "wow, wouldn't it be nice to be in a friendship where I wasn't the emotional stronghold, where we could just be friends and I didn't have to worry about making them feel comfortable all the time?"

But sadly, that doesn't happen frequently... because whenever I help someone along, be their friend, be kind to them in their weakest states... In my eyes, they abandon me. I'm good for the moment, when I'm lifting them up, but after that they realize how weird or something I am and they find new friends. Again, to me it's not that I don't want to not be constantly healing/helping people... It's that I find myself extraneous when I stick around, unwanted... So I tend to not stick around, unwanted. You would be correct in saying that I do this "because I want everyone to be happy," but I also do this because I think I truly care about people and don't like even the slightest discomfort to them... even if that discomfort is me.

That's a bit long, but it might give some insight into our phenomena of "healing people and en leaving"... It might look like that, but for me at least there's a lot more than that going on.
 

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I guess I kind of don't count here because I have dominant Fe, but...
Of course you count here :happy: Fe dom is exactly what's needed to help the OP do his decoding. Of course, individuals are different, and the friend in question may have his own reasons for doing things. But thank you for sharing your insight that Fe dom may "go away" in order to give space.

I also wondered whether the friend was giving the OP space deliberately, in order to build his own connections after the initial introduction. This is only a guess on my part, but I think this is what Fe users may have done for me before.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
So many negative topics about Fe lately.

I guess I kind of don't count here because I have dominant Fe, but... I mean, I do care about people. I care about... everyone? I just wouldn't say it's wrong that I desire everyone to be happy - I definitely do, and I feel some sort of "pain" I guess if that's not accomplished - but I really don't think that stops me from truly caring about people.

@alittlebear I always value your points of view. You will always count regardless of your cognitive functions! Don't care for what type you are, because I'd like to think I am familiar with you because of your valuable input and your desire to help me out!

Firstly, I apologize if it appears that I am bashing Fe. My objective here is to understand it. Regardless of whether it is done out of obligation or duty, or whether it is wholehearted--it does not matter to me. I will take the helpful actions and the gestures as they are, and if it makes any Fe dom happy and fulfilled in engaging in them, then I would appreciate it! As for my friend's case, even if it feels impersonal to me, I will take the gesture as it is, and return the favor regardless. I care more whether I can offer love, kindness, truth, and justice to others wholeheartedly than being the recipient of it.

See in my Fi brain, I do not understand the notion of caring for everyone. I guess I am very selective. It has worked for me because majority of my close friends would take a hit for me anytime. And I would do the same for them. I suppose it is a friend filtering mechanism. But then, this perception of friendships is not for everyone, as I have come to understand.

I do disappear after I've helped someone. I'm prone to that. Oh, you need help? Here you go. And then I'm gone. But for me this isn't because I don't care, but rather because I feel as if I'm only wanted to serve, and it don't want to annoy anyone with my prolonged presence. Maybe it's not that way for every Fe-dom, but...
I'd like to encourage you to think that there are people out there who do not view you as a resource. Although about 85% of the time, I am very much aware that people view me as a resource, there is still a few good ones who just enjoy and celebrate you for who you are. As for my perception on this, when I see someone has a good heart like yours, I do enjoy their presence, and I do everything to foster and cultivate their behavior and thinking of being helpful to others (and wanting to help) by supporting them in any way I can; I support by giving resources or "taking in some of the burden." I very much believe that you will feel loved if you allow yourself to be helped out by other people; and in doing so, you are also helping them out because who knows, maybe they have been itching to help you out and enjoy your presence but they just did not have the opportunity to do so.

And why would people be annoyed by your presence after you helped them?????????? This is absurd thinking! :wink:

I do like to fix people. I mean, I'm also a 2. I like making people smile again, improving their happiness. It makes me happy, and it makes me feel like I've made some difference. It gives me purpose in this world. But do you really think I enjoy dealing with sad feelings all the time? That I don't want to just have a friend - a single friend - who didn't depend on me emotionally, who didn't use me as that talking diary and cheering-up-machine? Gosh, I've wanted that for so long. I've finally gotten some friends who are relatively healthy and not dependent of me, but even then they end up turning to me when they need encouragement or help or advice, or whatever, and... I don't love them for it any less, and in the moment I enjoy helping them, but other times I go "wow, wouldn't it be nice to be in a friendship where I wasn't the emotional stronghold, where we could just be friends and I didn't have to worry about making them feel comfortable all the time?"


I would like to say that I am in the same predicament as you are. Being the "godfather" all my life, people have come to me for one purpose--to get help. It's funny, when I see people, I always ask "what's up" because I know something is up. And it ends up being true, and I always help them out.

But also, it's nice to be with someone who does not need you as a resource. In my case, I'm sorry to say that I have not found anyone like this. I have come to accept that people like you and me are meant to be the "fixers." Although, the only person who refreshes me when I feel spent, weak, and unable is my God. So that's it for me. Philippians 4:13: "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me"

But sadly, that doesn't happen frequently... because whenever I help someone along, be their friend, be kind to them in their weakest states... In my eyes, they abandon me. I'm good for the moment, when I'm lifting them up, but after that they realize how weird or something I am and they find new friends. Again, to me it's not that I don't want to not be constantly healing/helping people... It's that I find myself extraneous when I stick around, unwanted... So I tend to not stick around, unwanted. You would be correct in saying that I do this "because I want everyone to be happy," but I also do this because I think I truly care about people and don't like even the slightest discomfort to them... even if that discomfort is me.
There is nothing wrong with the way you operate. I find no valid reason for you to be saddened, although I do understand why you are. Make no mistake, I place a lot of value on how you feel about abandonment, because it is truly valid.

However, I would like you to think of it another way. There is nothing wrong with you because you supplied a need, you were spent, and you did a good thing. You held your end of the bargain. The "friends" who abandoned you were not your friends, are not your friends, and will never be your friends. They merely considered you as a resource. To me, it is a good thing that they bolted. They are not worth your time, effort and help. If they remained, they would suck all the goodness from you; they are nothing but parasites (excuse the colorful language). Now that they have departed, you can offer your goodness to other people, who deserve it more than your "so called" friends; you will be less "spent." I would like to encourage you to test out people first, and see if they are "friend" material, because not everyone is "friend" material. Friendship is all about mutual care and sacrificial love. Not everyone is capable of that (and maybe, at the moment they have not developed that capability), and so if you are looking for a friend, make it a deliberate mission. Sure some friendships can form organically, but I find these instances to be rarities.

That's a bit long, but it might give some insight into our phenomena of "healing people and en leaving"... It might look like that, but for me at least there's a lot more than that going on.
I love your lengthy responses, because it means that you have truly thought about the topic, and contributed what you really think. Thanks for your response!
 

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But sadly, that doesn't happen frequently... because whenever I help someone along, be their friend, be kind to them in their weakest states... In my eyes, they abandon me. I'm good for the moment, when I'm lifting them up, but after that they realize how weird or something I am and they find new friends. Again, to me it's not that I don't want to not be constantly healing/helping people... It's that I find myself extraneous when I stick around, unwanted... So I tend to not stick around, unwanted. You would be correct in saying that I do this "because I want everyone to be happy," but I also do this because I think I truly care about people and don't like even the slightest discomfort to them... even if that discomfort is me.

That's a bit long, but it might give some insight into our phenomena of "healing people and en leaving"... It might look like that, but for me at least there's a lot more than that going on.
this is interesting, because i feel very similarly to the bolded part, but for different reasons. i have this happen all the time, and honestly, it hurts my feelings. friends often come to me for advice, not for cheering up, like you, but then once i've been there for them/given them my thoughts on the subject, it's like, "bye!" i also am not one to ask advice much, but i do sometimes want to vent, to just to let it out, and it seems like they just don't want to bother to listen for as long as i did when they were the ones venting. :rolleyes:
 
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@Eosin please know I'm not offended! I know from talking to you before that wouldn't be the intention of your topic. It's just that topics about Fe lately tend to focus on our bad aspects. Similar to when non-2s talk about 2s :)

To respond directly to your Fe things... Yeah, for me I can't imagine not caring for everyone. Sometimes I do it more actively than others, but... I mean I don't tell my mother this, but I have always felt bad because on the inside I would be unable to choose between saving her or another woman if it came down to it. My Fe sometimes makes me a bad family member (like I will take the side of a stranger over my mother if I feel she is being crueler to them than they to her).

Thank you for your kind words though :) You undoubtedly have amp kind heart as well, and I like helping you - when I can be of use, that is. I hope I help you understand Fe a little bit better, just as maybe you can help me get Fi a bit more. .

But... mmm. I'm okay with people viewing me as a resource I guess, like if I wasn't being of use to people I would feel useless and all in all we just get stuff from people usually, right? I don't know, it is sad I see things this way, but... I do. I think some of my friends have valued me, and like my father... mostly always loves me and doesn't see me as a resource... but it's just unfortunately hard to find that sometimes. I'm a little bit more okay with that than my psychologist thinks I should be, but alas.

And I can see where you're coming from about my not-so-friends being parasites.. But the thing is - and I think Fi does this too, but I definitely do it - I sort of fall in love with absolutely everyone. Not romantic love, but like... I just kind of love everyone, and even if they're unkind to me or unhealthy or just bullies, whatever, I do that (N)FJ thing where I love them anyway because I *feel* that I see the truly good person they are at their soul... And I regret not being able to be friends with and connect with that wonderful part of them permanently. And, like... This does bring me quite a bit of grief. I have befriended unhealthy people quite for this reason, and I have had my heart broken by cruel/indifferent people when they reject me because I just... love them so much? And I think, wow, why can't I reach that lovely part of them? I can see how that would be a foreign idea for Te though. Maybe.

I appreciate your kind words, though. Thank you for them.

I hope you got something from that too :) Feel free to comment/inquire to understand better!
 
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