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I've read some healthy Enneagram 8's manage to master themselves and their passions, and their lust for power; they learn to surrender to a higher authority.

1. Does a higher power have to be a God?
2. I'm curious if there's anybody here who fit's that profile remotely
 

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1. Certainly not. It could be the care you feel for your kid, it could be devotion to an ideology (Che Guevara comes to mind as an interesting example -- and I think he's an 8, not a 6), it could be a love for Nature, it could be something simple like having so much faith in a personal feeling or idea (in my case, offering your energy -- as much as you can give, plus a little -- to those whom others wouldn't give a chance) that you sublimate that over yourself. "Higher power" here functions not so much as a deity or a literal other figure, but more as the context that you are not the omega of even your own existence. That said, the amount of personal energy (just so much energy throughout a day, it's unbelievable) that comes with believing very deeply, and for often a very long time, that you really are the most powerful entity you've ever encountered is put to very good use in the service of something you care about more than yourself. Basically, you need both psychological stages to make a whole

As a final note, the relationship between yourself and something that you decide (and that deciding is important) matters more to you than you is not adversarial. There's an inherent conflict in the "Master/Student" relationship. Eventually (usually metaphorically -- usually) the student must slay the master to become a master themselves. That's kind of dramatic and...I don't know, I feel like it's unnecessary. When you choose to act for something other than yourself, it's more like entering a partnership. Maybe like a marriage -- I don't know, I've never been married. But you're in it together, for something that matters to both of you.

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2. Well, I feel like it would be presumptuous/arrogant to make any declarations about fitting a profile or not. So I won't. That said, I do have some thoughts on that standard set of 8 "enlightenment" criteria; the "self-mastering", "controlled lust", "passions in check" standards.

The way it's often presented, it makes it sound like the 8s have tamed themselves. I won't speak for anyone else (yet), but that pokes me in my sense of pride. "No one tames ME! Not even ME!" (think Brando in "The Wild One"). It also (and I blame Riso and Hudson for creating a really fucking skewed perception of 8s -- Beatrice Chestnut writes with much more nuance) creates this sense that 8s are these half-crazed, demonic creatures who are either completely nuclear or, somehow by the grace of god/condescending authors saved and then "tamed". That's just not how it works. First off, we're not nuts. We've got a lot of energy, and feel things in a BIG way. But all that amounts to is a lack of subtlety, not being a bloodthirsty lunatic (though, I will concede that we're way more willing to jump to confrontation as a solution -- but there's still a buffer zone of decision-making beforehand).

Second, when you do start to respect something else more than yourself (I first felt this with music, actually -- respecting the power of a certain saxophone sound or piano lick), it's not like you just become a perennially calm version of yourself and "lose the lust for power". (lust, again, WAY overstating it. We're sensitive to power, just like 4s are sensitive to emotions. I may have that "lust" less because I'm very much a Social 8, but still, "lust" is egregious. We like to have control over the environment. Once that baseline is met, we're fine.) Basically all that happens when you do start to put your feelings and energy (which, I've found consists mostly of intense, passionate anger, and intense, loyal compassion) towards something besides yourself is that you mellow out slightly (meaning, less prone to disproportionately large reactions), and probably smile more (instead of just laughing a lot -- there's a difference). Not much else visible changes, and I think that that needs to be addressed in response to Riso's description of 8s as kind of wild animals whom someone else maybe managed to slip a muzzle on. I know you're not saying that -- I'm responding to him surrogately.

---

Holy shit that was long. Hopefully that answered your question. Bottom line: 1. No and 2. Yes, more 8s than the world might think.
 

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I've read some healthy Enneagram 8's manage to master themselves and their passions, and their lust for power; they learn to surrender to a higher authority.
I think I'm on my way to achieve that.

1. Does a higher power have to be a God?
No. I think it can be ethics.

Personally, ethics was virtually absent during my teens, but I noticed I have formed a strong morality ("commandments" like "Don't lie", "Don't manipulate people" and so on) in the last 2-3 years, somewhat numb and unconscious at first but recently it is getting clearer and clearer (for example, if in order to accomplish some goal I have to do actions that are against my ethics, I just stop and don't go for them).

I think it should be my Fi function starting to develop.

2. I'm curious if there's anybody here who fit's that profile remotely
I agree with @TheVenetian about this. I don't lust over power. Just don't try to manipulate/harm me.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
@TheVenetian

1. Certainly not. It could be the care you feel for your kid, it could be devotion to an ideology
Gotcha...

it could be a love for Nature
That makes sense -- nature is bigger than you as you are a part of it...

it could be something simple like having so much faith in a personal feeling or idea (in my case, offering your energy -- as much as you can give, plus a little -- to those whom others wouldn't give a chance)
That sounds very much like type 2, which is the growth arrow for 8. It also sounds a little enneagram 1 like.

2. Well, I feel like it would be presumptuous/arrogant to make any declarations about fitting a profile or not. So I won't. That said, I do have some thoughts on that standard set of 8 "enlightenment" criteria; the "self-mastering", "controlled lust", "passions in check" standards.

The way it's often presented, it makes it sound like the 8s have tamed themselves. I won't speak for anyone else (yet), but that pokes me in my sense of pride. "No one tames ME! Not even ME!" (think Brando in "The Wild One").
LOL! I don't view myself as "feral" so to speak, so much as a person who is kind of blunt and socially awkward who, if pushed, can act "feral" (Catlike I guess -- fast, agile, able to sneak around without detection)

It also (and I blame Riso and Hudson for creating a really fucking skewed perception of 8s -- Beatrice Chestnut writes with much more nuance)
Beatrice Chestnut?

8s are these half-crazed, demonic creatures who are either completely nuclear or, somehow by the grace of god/condescending authors saved and then "tamed".
The enneagram seems to be caricature like... I guess it makes it easy to identify the core traits, but it goes too far.

That's just not how it works. First off, we're not nuts.
No, most E8's are rational -- dominating, sometimes brutal, sure. Rarely insane actually.

We've got a lot of energy
So do I actually. I'm most likely a 6, but I do have a lot of energy.

and feel things in a BIG way.
You mean intense emotions that shift quickly?

I will concede that we're way more willing to jump to confrontation as a solution -- but there's still a buffer zone of decision-making beforehand
I'm not the type to be aggressive without provocation: If pushed, there exists in me a very strong urge to push back.

Second, when you do start to respect something else more than yourself (I first felt this with music, actually -- respecting the power of a certain saxophone sound or piano lick), it's not like you just become a perennially calm version of yourself and "lose the lust for power".
Actually, I love piano music, sax as well.

We're sensitive to power
Can you clarify that?

We like to have control over the environment. Once that baseline is met, we're fine.
Everybody wants to have some control over their environment. Who wants to be carried around like some leaf in the wind?

Holy shit that was long.
No biggie...
 
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"I don't lust over power. Just don't try to manipulate me."

Precisely. We're not Kevin Spacey in "House of Cards" -- that's too much caring about other people's shit...that's just boring after a while. It's just, don't cross the line. Very simple. The only real danger arises when someone is neurotic enough to feel like their "line" is always being crossed.

Anyway, I agree. And I would add, "Don't you dare try and push me around." THAT is a serious trigger. Do NOT try to bully me, because all this "nice" shit goes right away and you will find your place again. But other than that...everything's cool.
 

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I've read some healthy Enneagram 8's manage to master themselves and their passions, and their lust for power; they learn to surrender to a higher authority.
Yeah. Within enneagram terms, that could also mean that we've worked out the issues surrounding type nine, Holy Love, and type nine is both the anchor of the entire enneagram and more specifically, the anger/sloth/will/instinctive/body triad, of which type eights are members of.

1. Does a higher power have to be a God?
The trick is, I define what "God" is. "God", to me is synonomous to "unity", "wholeness", "for the greater good", and "love". I don't formally subscribe to a particular religion, but rather, I take the aspects of many different religions and reconstruct my own.

Likewise (a visible sign of conscious alignment to unity, of integration), this is how it manifests (within me):
1. Certainly not. It could be the care you feel for your kid, it could be devotion to an ideology (Che Guevara comes to mind as an interesting example -- and I think he's an 8, not a 6), it could be a love for Nature, it could be something simple like having so much faith in a personal feeling or idea (in my case, offering your energy -- as much as you can give, plus a little -- to those whom others wouldn't give a chance) that you sublimate that over yourself. "Higher power" here functions not so much as a deity or a literal other figure, but more as the context that you are not the omega of even your own existence. That said, the amount of personal energy (just so much energy throughout a day, it's unbelievable) that comes with believing very deeply, and for often a very long time, that you really are the most powerful entity you've ever encountered is put to very good use in the service of something you care about more than yourself. Basically, you need both psychological stages to make a whole
No. I think it can be ethics.

Personally, ethics was virtually absent during my teens, but I noticed I have formed a strong morality ("commandments" like "Don't lie", "Don't manipulate people" and so on) in the last 2-3 years, somewhat numb and unconscious at first but recently it is getting clearer and clearer (for example, if in order to accomplish some goal I have to do actions that are against my ethics, I just stop and don't go for them).
[HR][/HR]
2. I'm curious if there's anybody here who fit's that profile remotely
What profile?

[HR][/HR]
Anyway, I'm going to build upon what has been previously contributed.

As a final note, the relationship between yourself and something that you decide (and that deciding is important) matters more to you than you is not adversarial. There's an inherent conflict in the "Master/Student" relationship. Eventually (usually metaphorically -- usually) the student must slay the master to become a master themselves. That's kind of dramatic and...I don't know, I feel like it's unnecessary. When you choose to act for something other than yourself, it's more like entering a partnership. Maybe like a marriage -- I don't know, I've never been married. But you're in it together, for something that matters to both of you.
First of all, deciding is important... one of the names for our triad is the "will" triad. One of the reasons that type eights exist is to be a visible reminder and tool to type nines (of which all of the other eight types are manifestations of), so that type nines can find their answer and achieve wholeness. And since type nines represent "all is one" (Holy Love), type ones represent Holy Perfection (where their internal ideals and external manifestations are congruent) and since we're body/instinctive members, one of the Holy Truths of type eights is that for real change to occur, our thoughts, emotions, and actions must be in unity, congruence, and harmony.

Furthermore, The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Eight - Sacred Resistance
Jacob is everyone who conquers; by the power of Love, he conquered God, in order to be conquered himself... Whoever wishes to wrestle with God must set himself to conquer in order to be conquered... They are conquered so that they may conquer that unconquerable greatness... Conquer me, so that I may conquer you in your unconquered Power... He who conquers Love is vanquished himself.
[HR][/HR]
2. Well, I feel like it would be presumptuous/arrogant to make any declarations about fitting a profile or not. So I won't. That said, I do have some thoughts on that standard set of 8 "enlightenment" criteria; the "self-mastering", "controlled lust", "passions in check" standards.

The way it's often presented, it makes it sound like the 8s have tamed themselves. I won't speak for anyone else (yet), but that pokes me in my sense of pride. "No one tames ME! Not even ME!" (think Brando in "The Wild One").
This is where "surrendering to a higher authority" comes into play.

It also (and I blame Riso and Hudson for creating a really fucking skewed perception of 8s -- Beatrice Chestnut writes with much more nuance) creates this sense that 8s are these half-crazed, demonic creatures who are either completely nuclear or, somehow by the grace of god/condescending authors saved and then "tamed". That's just not how it works. First off, we're not nuts. We've got a lot of energy, and feel things in a BIG way. But all that amounts to is a lack of subtlety, not being a bloodthirsty lunatic (though, I will concede that we're way more willing to jump to confrontation as a solution -- but there's still a buffer zone of decision-making beforehand).
First of all, I will willingly agree that most eights are not crazed lunatics. That being said, I've suffered the extreme end of eight disintegration. As in, I've also suffered the extreme end of five disintegration. Meaning eights fall to type five. Out of all the other types, type fives have the most lucid awareness of the abyss. To quote something from Logicomix, "Put a man on the brink of the abyss and - in the unlikely event that he doesn't fall into it - he will become either a mystic or a madman... Which is probably the same thing!"

On top that, my type five best friend (once a walking symbolic reminder of fear) committed suicide while he shared an apartment with me. I'm amazed that people perceive me as having any semblance of sanity, considering all of the shit I've had to endure.

We're sensitive to power
Can you clarify that?
Something about "with great power comes great insanity". Here is what Rhodes wrote in "The Integral Enneagram".
Page 133 said:
Point 8 and Type 8. The processes described at Point 8 are quite similar to the qualities associated with Type 8. Strong, powerful, and naturally dominant, Eights are the type that are innately well-suited to embody all the qualities at each point on the enneagram. But they are also the type that has the most troubles balancing their energy or acknowledging their appreciation for others. So the goal is always to develop their skills in a way designed to support people instead of dominate them. Well-balanced Eights realize that all mastery is ultimately self-mastery and have an highly developed sense of personal honor. They realize the importance of cultivating not only outer qualities such as leadership, but inner qualities, such as tenderness (8->2) and the ability to reflect deeply (8->5).
Page 243 said:
Type 8 on the personality enneagram. This type represents the highest embodiment of Spirit in form and as such is subject to intense internal pressures that make the achievement of a calm and steady approach to living quite a challenge. It is not that Eights are better or more advanced than other types but that they are subject to powerful internal forces that require them to develop self-discipline, restraint, and mastery. The Eight who elects to take on this challenge finds that he as access to a tremendous pool of energy with which to work. So the energy at Point 8 is a double-edged sword that demands complete commitment.
My special kind of insanity can be explained by this:
Sr. Rivkha said:
Some EIGHTS have a very strong affinity to the universal force and experience psychic power. When they are maligned particularly when they operate out of a purity of intentions, the psychic powers of the EIGHT automatically venges itself on the person who maligned the EIGHT and renders the person's energy field negative.
[HR][/HR]
That sounds very much like type 2, which is the growth arrow for 8. It also sounds a little enneagram 1 like.
Eights and ones are essentially mirror images of each other. Type ones focus on Holy Perfection, which I best believe can be defined as "harmony/unity of purpose, form, and function". Type eights, as they are integrating, actually manifest a form of Holy Perfection, in which, within ourselves, there is no conflict between our emotions, thoughts, and actions.
Rhodes said:
Spirit Types (8-9-1). The types in this domain are oriented towards action in the outer or natural world. They have a natural affinity with the fiery world of creation or Spirit and an innate ability to anchor the energy of that world in this one, thus infusing matter with spiritual energy. For the same reason, they often function best in some sort of leadership, facilitate, or inspirational role - because they remind us of what is possible when we act in a way that embodies the laws that govern the Kosmos. Type 1 seeks to articulate those principles in a top-down (spirit-oriented) fashion; Type 8, to embody them in a bottom-up (body-oriented) fashion; and Type 9, to reconcile the two.
Rhodes said:
Where Ones seek to somehow establish a spiritual ideal in a less-than-spiritual world, Eights fight to embody it within their own being. They instinctively know that what ultimately matters most is what we can exemplify in thought, word, and deed.
[HR][/HR]
The enneagram seems to be caricature like... I guess it makes it easy to identify the core traits, but it goes too far.
If your focus is on the personality​ enneagram, then the caricature like is the entire point. It requires growth and positive health to transcend beyond our caricatures and stereotypes.

No, most E8's are rational -- dominating, sometimes brutal, sure. Rarely insane actually.
Then I'm one of the rare insane eights.

Everybody wants to have some control over their environment. Who wants to be carried around like some leaf in the wind?
The people subject to vice: sloth. So first and foremost, type nines. Then type eights and ones. And then all of the other types. In that order.

My impression is that we gave you similar answers. This is how "unity in multiplicity" works. @Quang @Zamyatin

I'm drunk. If I actually make sense to anybody, then I'm going to give credit where credit is due. Thanks, the almost 50% of me that is type seven, virtue: sobriety.
 

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Beatrice Chestnut?
She's just an author, wrote something recently called...hold on..."The Complete Enneagram: 27 Paths to Greater Self-Knowledge". I found it to have far more subtle and thoughtfully written descriptions of all the types than most of the other books I've read. Worth picking up on Kindle.

You mean intense emotions that shift quickly?
Hm, I don't know that they necessarily have to shift quickly. They certainly can, but I'd bet not any more quickly than emotions for other types (excluding perhaps 4s). You know, you feel quite happy, but you really only feel that for about 15 minutes, and then it just settles in to being a "mood". That sort of thing. But for those 15 minutes, you're getting it all. You're dancing, you're singing, you physically HAVE to move -- and the same thing happens for sadness (felt physically as lethargy, a feeling of being suppressed, at least for me) and anger (a big, expanding feeling in your gut, faster muscle movements, your body is literally preparing for combat), and so on. I have not experienced many subtle emotions -- they're usually subtle indications of a larger emotion behind it. So, to answer your question, yes, intense, but not necessarily fickle.

Can you clarify that?
Sure. Imagine that you have electrosensitivity, like a shark. You are aware of changes, subtle and dramatic, in your surroundings, even if they can't always be expressed (easily) through language or explanation. "Sensitivity to power" is similar. You (though I have read that there is a higher sensitivity to these sort of perceptive changes in social 8s, which I am, so perhaps it shows up differently for other 8 flavors) understand and are observant of even quite minute changes in who currently has power, who is vying for it, who wants to keep theirs, who isn't interested in the dynamic, etc. This is learned through a bajillion little factors -- body language, tone, attitude, historical relationship, position in the room, words chosen, where people look or don't, and on and on. Of course, you're not consciously attentive of each of these things, but you pick them up and are able to form and overall picture, a deeper understanding of the exchange.

So that's "sensitivity to power". It's different than always trying to stake a claim -- sometimes (a fair amount of the time, actually), you don't need to overtly be the one in charge. Sometimes you just need some information, sometimes it would upset the overall dynamic if you tried to make a play for more power, and sometimes you really do need to assert yourself. But noticing what's going on is very different than walking into a room and "taking charge", as is often described. You may have a presence no matter what -- 8s tend to take up space unapologetically (I certainly do). But that doesn't mean that every new place you go requires an energetic coup.

Everybody wants to have some control over their environment. Who wants to be carried around like some leaf in the wind?
Certain people absolutely do. 9s have this tendency (until they become passive-aggressively stubborn -- infuriates me disproportionately), as do some 2s (if I let them be in charge, then they'll like me).
 

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I've read some healthy Enneagram 8's manage to master themselves and their passions, and their lust for power; they learn to surrender to a higher authority.

1. Does a higher power have to be a God?
2. I'm curious if there's anybody here who fit's that profile remotely
For point 1, I'd say I think it's a mistake to interpret that too literally. Growth for an 8 involves letting go of the need for power, which is an overcompensation for a feeling of having once been powerless. The growth is not in believing in some hierarchy (be that ideology, God, a leader, whatever) but in learning to not care about not having dominance in their given context. An actualized 8 lacks the obsession with power, which has no essential connection to to actual submission to something or someone with power. In other words, they may submit and they may not, the important thing is they no longer care one way or another.
 

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How much cognitive, mental control do other 8s feel that they can possess once they get triggered by something and are able to get to that person in the now?

Taking a step back and asking the higher lord for help then?

I don't believe in this at all.

I do believe in maslows hierarchy of needs and your place in the social hierarchy among with other mental health things to determine on what health level you're in and how much you're able to "step back and cool down".
 

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How do you define being insane?

Feeling like you have a huge engine running at full speed, just being able to control the clutch a little bit, while seeing how things actually are in the world can make you a little bit "different" I suppose.
Uh, no. It's the aftermath of my mental state after (some select highlights:) dealing with an abusive childhood (where the abuse was so inter-generational that it became "normal"), took over 20 years to work that out with my parents (luckily! they were receptive to it), meanwhile managed to attain a colorful list of diagnoses from various shrinks, took and mixed enough drugs to become passively suicidal, on some of those trips, I actually met the abyss (and defeated it! by flooding it with my excess energy and converted the abyss into the cosmos), hung out with the wrong people and got sexually assaulted by people of both genders, dealt with friend dying in college (and the aftermath of all of the other fucked-up things he tried to impart onto me), somehow managed to overwork myself in college that I actually suffered a heart attack, and got unlucky enough to get hit by a truck onto a street with incoming traffic and was like 15 seconds away from actually being killed, which directly triggered more "seeing things" as I found out that you really don't feel the impact of being hit until a day later.

I don't personally know anyone who has anywhere near the amount of shitty luck I've had, and I consider the ones who get to die immediately the "lucky ones". At least I managed to graduate, and the only real addiction I have to manage is my functional alcoholism. If I made even worse decisions, things could've been so. much. worse. By some people's accounts, I should've been dead a long time ago, and there's really only so many times one can meet death and still stay a sane person.

The insanity starts to come out when after attempting "to be ok", someone manages to trigger my temper, so I proceed to list every single reason I dislike them, how they are failing themselves and will never be happy, and how they clearly never got over their childhood issues with their divorced parents in a "the reason you suck" speech while somehow driving my body into exhaustion while doing so. I've been told (by more people than I should be proud of) that I strike at the roots of someone's personality, but I think it's for their own good that someone says it.

It's even more insane that the lessons I've had to consciously learn and remember to get out of all of the mess I was in, matched most of the lessons that are either overtly written in the beginner-friendly personality enneagram books (Ichazo branch), or hidden within the symbol itself in the process enneagram (Gurdjieff branch), down to the triggers of the shock points (located at points 3, 6, and between 8-9), where coming out of those events, I became a very very different person (freaking out some people when they realized they said "You've changed" to me waaaay too often than should be expected within, say, a calendar year). I'm crazy enough to trust my intuition and put my engineering education to good use on this symbol, even managing to discover the connection lines at 2<->5 and 4<->7 before reading Blake's The Intelligent Enneagram (not that it told you the answer, just that it exists). I discovered and used the enneagram explicitly for the spiritual aspects, a pan-religious framework that I can rework my liking. Because, again, I should've been long dead by now, it's crazy that I'm still alive, and I can either choose to think it's because I'm awesome (I'm not, or else I'd be luckier), or that something is carrying me through.

Bringing me back to "Put a man on the brink of the abyss and - in the unlikely event that he doesn't fall into it - he will become either a mystic or a madman... Which is probably the same thing!" And for good measure, I'm sx-dominant, which Rhodes wrote in The Positive Enneagram, "When we talk about sexuality in the context of the subtypes, the discussion includes not only intimacy and sexual activity but mysticism and creativity."

Taking a step back and asking the higher lord for help then?

I don't believe in this at all.
Yeah, "surrendering to a higher authority" is intentionally phrased vaguely so that you can figure out how you want it to mean.
 

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"Sensitivity to power" is similar. You (though I have read that there is a higher sensitivity to these sort of perceptive changes in social 8s, which I am, so perhaps it shows up differently for other 8 flavors) understand and are observant of even quite minute changes i.
so.....
I believe in auras. I have met numerous people who see auras. They are often 2's or 4's, and sometimes they don't know what an aura is, but they can see them in some interpretation.

I cannot see auras - the colors, the personality, the good, or the bad.

I can see MAGNTITUDE of aura. So, I'm at a park, and 150 people are there. I can see who has a lot of personal horsepower. I an't tell good or bad, but I can see who has energy. Men and women.

I sat with a lady who could see auras. A guy caught my attention, and we "recognized" each other simultaneously. He had POWER, and was there to see his grandkids were safe. I asked the lady what she thought of the guy. He was invisible to her, which really surprised her. She focused on him, still couldn't see him.

I don't give a shit about most of the people at the park. only a few.
 

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"I don't lust over power. Just don't try to manipulate me."

. Do NOT try to bully me, because all this "nice" shit goes right away and you will find your place again. But other than that...everything's cool.
yeah. I don't like bullies. and I REALLY don't like bullies who run in packs. And I dislike bullies who say they are going to get their pack and teach me manners, or hunt me down on some other day, cuz now isn't good.
 
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The insanity starts to come out when after attempting "to be ok", someone manages to trigger my temper, so I proceed to list every single reason I dislike them, how they are failing themselves and will never be happy, and how they clearly never got over their childhood issues with their divorced parents in a "the reason you suck" speech while somehow driving my body into exhaustion while doing so. I've been told (by more people than I should be proud of) that I strike at the roots of someone's personality, but I think it's for their own good that someone says it.
Why is that insanity? I think the fact that people can't handle their shit nor be told that they should to be insane.

TheReasonYouSuck or The reason why you should get your shit together and leave me the fuck alone, so here's the blue print to your fuck up, go and fix yourself?

I doubt they think it's for their own good. Most people can't handle the truth and use most of their lives to try and fit in and/or build some sort of accepted persona. They don't want to fix things, they just want to get by.

It's even more insane that the lessons I've had to consciously learn and remember to get out of all of the mess I was in, matched most of the lessons
What lessons are those?

I can either choose to think it's because I'm awesome (I'm not, or else I'd be luckier), or that something is carrying me through.
I've felt the same thing in life, like I have this built in flash light, which shows me where to go and what to do. Isn't that anything but crazy? At least for me it's showed me how to get away from crazy.

Bringing me back to "Put a man on the brink of the abyss and - in the unlikely event that he doesn't fall into it - he will become either a mystic or a madman... Which is probably the same thing!" And for good measure, I'm sx-dominant, which Rhodes wrote in The Positive Enneagram, "When we talk about sexuality in the context of the subtypes, the discussion includes not only intimacy and sexual activity but mysticism and creativity."
I can see creativity being linked to Sx as it's intense. Why mysticism?

Yeah, "surrendering to a higher authority" is intentionally phrased vaguely so that you can figure out how you want it to mean.
But where is the drive to change and challenge things if you surrender to a higher authority? How alive does an 8 feel if there's nothing to push?

8 - Enneagram Type Eight: The Challenger
mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority
How many 8s doesn't feel that they master themselves?

How would you know that you master yourself through self-surrender to a higher authority?

By not letting people make you angry because there is a higher authority? What is it that you surrender? Authority?
 

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Why is that insanity? I think the fact that people can't handle their shit nor be told that they should to be insane.
Because the steps and the cost to "repair myself" is very expensive (emotionally, mentally, and physically speaking) and extreme, and not one that many people will willingly take. How many people are willing to face their death over and over again until they can truly find themselves? In my case, to die and be reborn into innocence? It's like taking the steps to set up my computer juuuust right, so that if something goes wrong at all, my first solution is to wipe and reinstall the OS. Most people are either too ill-prepared or rather take the pedestrian route and run all of those other diagnostic steps, adding additional variables and complexities into their problems before they can even determine the original source of the problem. Some people think I'm better off or that it's appropriate that I accept being a broken and defiled person, and that there's no point in trying to improve myself, and think attempting to do (what Jung calls) "shadow" work to be insane.

TheReasonYouSuck or The reason why you should get your shit together and leave me the fuck alone, so here's the blue print to your fuck up, go and fix yourself?

I doubt they think it's for their own good.
That's my point. Bottom line is, I felt like I've tolerated quite a lot up until that point, and when it crosses that line, I don't care what they think.
I think it's for their own good that someone says it.
Most people can't handle the truth and use most of their lives to try and fit in and/or build some sort of accepted persona. They don't want to fix things, they just want to get by.
Right. I'm glad we can agree on something.
[HR][/HR]
What lessons are those?
One of them (depending on how you count "one"), as alluded to the opening post, is figuring out what that "higher force" is, and how to submit to it. In my first post on this thread, I went in depth on the many ways that "higher force" could come up, and I even quoted other people's interpretations as being in agreement with the lessons I've learned.

I'll even bother to say (normally I won't bother wasting my breath since most people won't really understand me; ya know, that whole "insanity" thing) that this answer can be found at point 3, and if you understand Holy Law at all (in order to do so requires compliance to harmony; one of type three's Holy Ideas that no one ever mentions is Holy Harmony), then one reason for its importance is alluding to the fact that it's a shock point, and how to get to that point is buried somewhere in my first paragraph of this post.

Here, if you actually care that much, then:
Rhodes said:
The third shock point (Point 9) is extremely mysterious; very little is written about it, other than that it is a necessary part of the transformation process. One online writer confirms that to the extent that a teaching exists, it exists as an oral teaching with a very limited audience, but associates it with higher alchemical processes, processes which I would associate with the integration of the self into the greater Kosmos at a highly refined level (= assimilation). So the "cooking" that is associated with this shock point would be hard to translate into concrete terms.
Rhodes said:
Point 8 to Point 9 on the process enneagram. This transition is one of the most mysterious on the enneagram, involving the move from Allness to Nothingness in a way that affirms the essential sameness of the two (which is why it represents the highest form of integration/synthesis). The individual who has completely internalized the Kosmos paradoxically becomes just a particle within the vastness of that Kosmos. This is the ultimate synthesis of the One and the Many.
Plus my experience that led me to witnessing it. I've had this book for less than a month so far, and now it's pretty clear why I'm the only one enchanted by the abyss and the cosmos.

The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Two - Sacred Grace
The existence of the cosmos and of all beings within it is perhaps the most fundamental gift of the Divine.
[HR][/HR]
I've felt the same thing in life, like I have this built in flash light, which shows me where to go and what to do. Isn't that anything but crazy? At least for me it's showed me how to get away from crazy.
Yeah, me too. But that's like, only "one" thing amongst the other reasons behind my "insanity", regardless if you agree with my interpretation of "insanity" or not.

I can see creativity being linked to Sx as it's intense. Why mysticism?
Instinctive types. It just is, I've accepted it, and I don't see the point of questioning it. Or I could say after suffering through enough trauma, it has led me to being able to witness it with my body. Not just my eyes. But I can literally sense it with my body.

The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Eight - Sacred Expanse

It is a strange awakening to find the sky inside you and beneath you and above you and all around you so that your spirit is one with the sky...
[HR][/HR]
But where is the drive to change and challenge things if you surrender to a higher authority? How alive does an 8 feel if there's nothing to push?
What makes you think those are mutually exclusive options? What makes you think that surrendering to a higher authority means I've given up on life and there's nothing to push? How can't you just arrive to the common sense answer that "there's something worth dying and protecting for". "Worth dying" for means it's not just about me and my selfishness, but something greater.

The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Eight - Sacred Omnipresence
In Platonic and Renaissance philosophy, and in some strains of Sufism, this omnipresent Divine has a feminine aspect. There, it is viewed as the Goddess, the Anima Mundi, the World Soul, the One who dwells in an immanent manner within all things. However, because humanity forms a major part of her self-awareness, and because modern materialistic humans have denied her existence, she has therefore lost touch with her true identity, forgetting who she is. As we saw earlier, this is part of the Nine aspect of the Divine. Humanity is needed, therefore, to reawaken the World Soul to her personality, and thus re-ignite her power. This view of the Goddess as being omnipresent, yet in need of human help, appeals to the desire of Eights both to expand their presence throughout the world in an omnipresent manner, and to stand up for the vulnerable. In this case, the Vulnerable One happens to be the Divine. In addition, when Eights realize that the sacred presence dwelling at the core of their being also indwells the world at large, they understand that doing their own inner spiritual work automatically helps transform the World Soul. Rather than trying to extend the reach of their own ego throughout the world – the usual tendency of the untransformed Eight – they realize instead that working on their own soul will automatically effect a change in the world at large.
There's a reason why, as alluded by the opening post, finding a higher force to submit oneself to is one of the most important lessons for eights. Because without it, power corrupts absolutely. Our power becomes greater when it is alignment with something above ourselves, something that even Holy Perfection alludes to.
[HR][/HR]
How many 8s doesn't feel that they master themselves?
What makes you think "master" is a binary option, where you either have mastered yourself or you haven't? What if I answered it to say that I've considerably improved my psychological state from its absolute lowest point I've witnessed, and that this upward movement is a sign of "mastering"? How many people on this forum is willing to admit that they've fallen/disintegrated like 8->5->7? How many people on this forum can even realize this about themselves?

"Mastering" is an active verb. What makes you think that there's an end point, that fully mastering myself is even possible? It's like in calculus, when you take the limit of time in a function to infinity... what makes you think you'll actually reach infinity? It's a spiritual goal, and time going to infinity means death. Only in death will my full potential be realized.

How would you know that you master yourself through self-surrender to a higher authority?
Surrendering to the higher authority is what gives me the power to master myself. It is a causal event.

By not letting people make you angry because there is a higher authority? What is it that you surrender? Authority?
Your set of questions presume quite a lot. And you are asking questions that I've already answered multiple times. I surrender to the abyss and the cosmos, the greater whole. Surrendering to the abyss is what turns it into the cosmos, and I am shown that they are one and the same, aka Holy Love (simply "All is One"). Thinking that I'm above it all, that there is nothing I need to surrender to, is actually called vice:pride. So rather than commit "the deadliest sin", I choose to recognize the limits of my power, and I willingly chose to be a "servant of the whole". For some people, that is in the form of committing to an ideology or a set of ethics. My cosmos/conception of "God"/higher authority is inclusive of those and others.

I don't know why you're so stuck on this, but judging by the tone of your post, you make it sound like I give up a lot of control and power by choosing to align myself with "some kind of authority". Actually, it's the opposite. I have access to greater personal powers than before, powers that can only come from my conscious alignment to something above myself. I will even dare say that I'm happier for it, like a massive burden was lifted from my shoulders, and that there's help out there in the world somewhere, even if it's up to me to identify in what form that help comes in.

The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Eight - Sacred Resistance
One of the five “buddha families” – emotional tendencies – spoken about in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is the vajra family, which involves the transformation of anger. It is associated with the east, the element of water and with the color blue. Traditionally, vajra is a celestial diamond-like precious stone which can cut through any other solid object. It is often expressed emotionally as anger.

Tibetan Buddhist teaching understands intellectual fixation as the source of anger. When channeled into this kind of fixation, vajra energy focuses on only one viewpoint. It is like male tunnel vision which gets so focused on one thing that it can’t see anything else. As a result, it is very narrow-minded. Whenever we focus with tunnel vision on a perceived injustice, we feel justifiably incensed. However, when we fail to understand the psychology of the person perpetrating the injustice, we constrict and harden around our emotion. As anger, vajra – intellectual fixation - wants to lash out and destroy the person or situation to which it is directed. It doesn’t see the space surrounding the emotion, but constricts around it instead. In the Japanese and Tibetan languages, the word hell literally means “no-space.” Our experience informs us that the constricted feeling of no-space really is a living hell.

However, when vajra energy is transmuted into its enlightened form, it becomes what the Tibetans call “mirror-like wisdom.” When we use spaciousness to relax around anger, it takes place within a large, calm interior lake which is vast enough to reflect the entire situation and not just one point of view – our own. Vajrayana practice therefore makes use of the spacious aspect of awareness to see the larger perspective which might be influencing both the person or situation with which one is angry. This seeing comes from the east – the place of fresh insight and truth. Spacious mind enables us to ask: was the other abused as a child? Am I angry at a person because of some other event occurring earlier in my day? The mirror-like ocean of wisdom gives a largeness of heart which allows us to step back and become aware of all of the factors involved.

The more we practice relaxing around anger, the more the knife-like clarity of prajna wisdom reveals itself within that anger. Usually anger acts like a jack-hammer that wishes to destroy the offensive person or situation. But prajna allows us to aim the energy of anger endlessly through the offending person or situation, instead of at them. It becomes a laser beam of insightful action, allowing us to work through the difficulty instead of destroying it. Again, we use the energy of anger to move us endlessly through the situation, instead of at it. No longer solid and constricting, anger becomes a free-flowing and useful energy, able to penetrate with insight through the offensive action or person to the source of the injustice, directing our emotional energy into a course of action that will help correct the situation.
Actually, it's irresponsible to think that my challenges end, that's there's nothing left to push for and there's nothing left to do to improve the world, as if me, an individual, choosing to do something automatically makes all of the injustices of the world go away and that I don't need to do anything about it. You think that after aligning myself to a higher force/power, that my personal responsibilities and duties actually end, and that there's nothing left to do? No! Don't be ridiculous, that's just the beginning.
 

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I might get back to some of the heavier parts when I feel more focused.

Because the steps and the cost to "repair myself" is very expensive (emotionally, mentally, and physically speaking) and extreme, and not one that many people will willingly take. How many people are willing to face their death over and over again until they can truly find themselves? In my case, to die and be reborn into innocence? It's like taking the steps to set up my computer juuuust right, so that if something goes wrong at all, my first solution is to wipe and reinstall the OS. Most people are either too ill-prepared or rather take the pedestrian route and run all of those other diagnostic steps, adding additional variables and complexities into their problems before they can even determine the original source of the problem. Some people think I'm better off or that it's appropriate that I accept being a broken and defiled person, and that there's no point in trying to improve myself, and think attempting to do (what Jung calls) "shadow" work to be insane.
I know what you mean. I had to face my childhood and die, then build myself up again as something new. At the same time as people around you try the best to not let you grow. It's hard, it's not just your inner daemons you have to fix, it's people around you that don't want you to succeed as well. It does take a lot of energy, both physically, mentally and emotionally and I don't think that many non 8s can do it.

That's my point. Bottom line is, I felt like I've tolerated quite a lot up until that point, and when it crosses that line, I don't care what they think.
Yeah, it's hammer time by then.

Right. I'm glad we can agree on something.
Not sure if we disagree on anything, this is more my way of learning things, and a lot of the enneagram teaching is too much harry potter for me to be able to go through when I'm not at 5.

[HR][/HR] What makes you think those are mutually exclusive options? What makes you think that surrendering to a higher authority means I've given up on life and there's nothing to push? How can't you just arrive to the common sense answer that "there's something worth dying and protecting for". "Worth dying" for means it's not just about me and my selfishness, but something greater.
Well, what is worth dying and protecting for? I don't feel like there's anything worth doing that for and then if I release the authority to someone else, what else is there?

I suppose I first have to find a goal in life before I can start thinking about releasing authority. Or maybe that will be my goal...

"Mastering" is an active verb. What makes you think that there's an end point, that fully mastering myself is even possible? It's like in calculus, when you take the limit of time in a function to infinity... what makes you think you'll actually reach infinity? It's a spiritual goal, and time going to infinity means death. Only in death will my full potential be realized.
I thought about being your own master. Mastering is as you say something you have to do all the time. It is a goal, for sure.

Surrendering to the higher authority is what gives me the power to master myself. It is a causal event.

Your set of questions presume quite a lot. And you are asking questions that I've already answered multiple times. I surrender to the abyss and the cosmos, the greater whole. Surrendering to the abyss is what turns it into the cosmos, and I am shown that they are one and the same, aka Holy Love (simply "All is One"). Thinking that I'm above it all, that there is nothing I need to surrender to, is actually called vice:pride. So rather than commit "the deadliest sin", I choose to recognize the limits of my power, and I willingly chose to be a "servant of the whole". For some people, that is in the form of committing to an ideology or a set of ethics. My cosmos/conception of "God"/higher authority is inclusive of those and others.

I don't know why you're so stuck on this, but judging by the tone of your post, you make it sound like I give up a lot of control and power by choosing to align myself with "some kind of authority". Actually, it's the opposite. I have access to greater personal powers than before, powers that can only come from my conscious alignment to something above myself. I will even dare say that I'm happier for it, like a massive burden was lifted from my shoulders, and that there's help out there in the world somewhere, even if it's up to me to identify in what form that help comes in.
Well I've turned to "fuck it, and fuck 'em" so I guess that's vice:pride then. Still I have good intentions, I just don't think it's worth it.

The servant of the whole is to me some sort of way of accepting to be a leader to everyone, even how stupid they act in order for some higher goal. That is also what I thought about this higher power thing. It doesn't sound like something a lot of 8s will do, maybe more so with age. Either that or something like this (closer to how I am as of now):


I do think that you give up a lot of power and control as well as drive. How does this greater personal power manifest in your day to day life?

The Spiritual Enneagram: Type Eight - Sacred Resistance
Actually, it's irresponsible to think that my challenges end, that's there's nothing left to push for and there's nothing left to do to improve the world, as if me, an individual, choosing to do something automatically makes all of the injustices of the world go away and that I don't need to do anything about it. You think that after aligning myself to a higher force/power, that my personal responsibilities and duties actually end, and that there's nothing left to do? No! Don't be ridiculous, that's just the beginning.
Yeah, I really need to find some goals worth pushing for in life. Having an higher authority might give you some sort of universal goal, lasting over time...
 

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Yeah, teach a person manners: More like teach them to submit to them
 

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I might get back to some of the heavier parts when I feel more focused.
It's ok if you can't or don't. If you ever ask again on another thread, I'll be happy to give a different explanation. As long as you aren't being a dick to me and are genuinely curious about my journey, you are manifesting a particular sort of "authority from the whole" that I literally answer to.

I have and I can. It was when I 'died'.
Then you should be able to talk about it some more, about the lessons you've learned, and how that changed you. The more enneagram-specific keywords you can map out to your story, the more palatable and believable it is.
I know what you mean. I had to face my childhood and die, then build myself up again as something new. At the same time as people around you try the best to not let you grow. It's hard, it's not just your inner daemons you have to fix, it's people around you that don't want you to succeed as well.
I can't say I have that problem. Letting other people prevent an eight from doing something is the quickest way to trigger the fear of getting controlled, and eights don't generally put themselves in a position to be so easily influenced by peer pressure. Barring extreme circumstances where a gun is pointed to your head and your family is being held hostage, people can't control you, so I don't see that as a "real" problem, sorry.

On the other hand, Holy Law says you don't just "die" once. On the enneagram, the 3-4-5-6 arc deals with this issue.
It does take a lot of energy, both physically, mentally and emotionally and I don't think that many non 8s can do it.
Wow. That's like saying "I don't think that many non 7s can find enlightenment" or "I don't think that many non 9s can find wholeness and unity".

Everyone is born with the capacities of all nine types within them. The goal (symbolized by point eight) of the journey is to embody all of the qualities of all of the types. This is what "integration" means, "to become whole". Your base type only determines what your "point one" is. Every type is supposed to move around to all of the other types and integrate those lessons within themselves.

Anyone who arrives to a point and stops there to consolidate their power is an obstruction to progress. This isn't a contest of superiority. To think that most other types can't do something is at best, factually incorrect, and at worse, arrogantly offensive. Type eights (and other types who have "mastered" themselves) are supposed to help out the ones who can't. This is a type's predisposition to particular destructive habits that requires them to develop internal structures and qualities out of necessity. We don't do it to prove that we're better or more advanced.

I thought about being your own master. Mastering is as you say something you have to do all the time. It is a goal, for sure.
In a previous post, I quoted Rhodes in saying that the type eight energy is a doubled-edged sword that demands complete commitment.

[HR][/HR]
Well, what is worth dying and protecting for?
That is like, literally, your job to find out. Absolutely no one can answer that question for you. If in doubt, just find some ways to realistically "die" or actually narrowly escape some near-death experiences (ideally, due to factors beyond your control), and I'm sure the answer will arrive to you really quickly.

I don't feel like there's anything worth doing that for and then if I release the authority to someone else, what else is there?
Uh... for starters, you have coupled "authority" to "someone else", and I think you even think "God" is a kind of "someone else". You should try to see whether you could be more flexible in that area.

I suppose I first have to find a goal in life before I can start thinking about releasing authority. Or maybe that will be my goal...
Yeah... "Before you can start thinking about releasing authority"... sometimes in life, your hands are forced in such a way that releasing authority is going to be the most optimal decision, whether you like it or not.

Yeah, I really need to find some goals worth pushing for in life. Having an higher authority might give you some sort of universal goal, lasting over time...
Have you tried reading an enneagram book, like cover to cover? I recommend Maitri's Spiritual Dimension.

Well I've turned to "fuck it, and fuck 'em" so I guess that's vice:pride then. Still I have good intentions, I just don't think it's worth it.
Well, the first step to fixing a problem is to admit that you have a problem. If you don't do anything about it, your "good intentions" might as well not exist.

The servant of the whole is to me some sort of way of accepting to be a leader to everyone,
I don't have aspirations to be a leader. It's tiring and it detracts from my personal goals. Un/fortunately, there's a side affect where an alignment to a higher authority has a way of conferring and legitimatizing my "authority", even in situations when it's unwanted.

even how stupid they act in order for some higher goal. That is also what I thought about this higher power thing. It doesn't sound like something a lot of 8s will do, maybe more so with age.
There's this awkward thing I feel where I'm speechless by the things you say. For like, 2/3s of your post. I feel like you ignored the parts where I quoted how eights are a "spirit type", and eights are adjacent to type nine, who represents "higher power". It's considerably more likely than you think. We also have a lot in common with type ones, and that means something.

I do think that you give up a lot of power and control as well as drive.
You can think that. You'd be wrong, but you still have the right to think that.

[HR][/HR]
How does this greater personal power manifest in your day to day life?
I feel happier. Holy Love is the sunlight in the sky and the life of nature. My windows are always open so I can feel connected to nature and the outside world, it makes breathing much easier, and on some mornings, I feel "one" with the wind; I can feel the cars driving by and sort of "intruding" on my wind-energy-space. It makes me feel like the world will take care of me, and I don't need to exert my body into exhaustion, because what more can I do if I've died? I don't worry about death anymore, and I maximize my time so that I will die happy with no regrets.

I have access to this internal dimension that consists of a giant ball of light inside me that's gold (essence of being, read more about it at the back of Riso/Hudson's blue book) that corresponds to my experience of Holy Law/Harmony/Hope (although I think of it more in terms of the "anima mundi"). It allows me to stay calm and see possibilities that I've never noticed before. Over the internet, it allows me to manifest the point of view of any type and apparently instinctual stacking. I feel the Sacred Deception, which means I no longer have that problem where if I run a non-genuine persona for too long, I'd have some kind of psychotic breakdown. Since my personas are connected to my heart, I can run it for much longer periods of time. Since it's not my base type, it requires more energy though, but it's fun.

Holy Plan/Work/Wisdom is what started my journey to recovery. And for that, I am forever grateful. Holy Plan is a specific focus and variation of Holy Law, so to me, they're now one and the same, and it makes me feel safe and remembered by the bigger world (not necessarily the people world). Internally, things are sorted out, for the most part. I have to consciously remember my fear and anxiety and it allows me to get in touch with certain aspects of myself. My "forgotten fear" and anxiety no longer runs as big of a risk of a psychotic breakdown either.

I repaired my Holy Truth, and putting it into motion turns it into Holy Will. I make considerably less bad decisions than I used to.

All of the other types are identified and sorted out from each other, and all of them are works in progress. I feel more whole and complete.
 
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