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Discussion Starter #1
My Nickname is Suusje, my real name is Sylvia.

I live in Belgium and not to long ago I started to read about the 16 personality types.
I'm an INFJ.

I used to be married to an ISTP. We're still in touch, but not together anymore.
It's such a shame that we didn't knew about this years ago! We've had our difficulties and after learning and reading about our personality types. We started to understand each other so much better.

I'm not sure if there's any chance of us ever getting back together. Because I'm in love with an ESTJ.
I'm very lucky that my ex partner isn't very jealous. He's hoping that we'll get back together,but at the same time I can talk to him about the other man in my life.

Who's already in a relationship and I don't really know what to do with it.
I have feelings for him, but never do I wish to hurt someone and to break up someones relationship.

I keep my distance from him. We do have mutual friends and sometimes we see each other on a party, birthday, social events like that. That's also where I first met him. For me it was love at first sight.
All of the sudden we were looking in eachother's eyes. Neither one of us moved for, I don't know how long. Until he turned around and walked away. I was standing there thinking: 'Who is he and what the hell just happened?' That was a very intense moment.

We're not friends, but we do sometimes see eachother on these events. We've a chat, but I try to keep my distance from him. But he comes to me and if he gets half the chance. He'll ask me if I want to be on a picture with him. Which is so difficult for me to refuse!

I know that ESTJ's can be very friendly to the point that they seem to be flirting. He's no exception to that! He's a flirt! But I don't think that he'll cheat on his girlfriend.

I'm hoping to get some help from other ESTJ's to find out what's going on. Is he still being just friendly or is there more? When he gets me to be on a picture with him. He'll stand very close to me. I mean VERY close! He'll push his body against mine. Not just softly, no I really mean he pushes his body against mine with some pressure. His hand is usually somewhere on my back, one time I felt his hand softly on my behind and another time. He very gently put his hand on my waist.
It feels so good for to feel him so close to me.

Except for when his children or his girlfriend is with him. Then I get totally ignored by him. That's also the only time he's really clear to me in his signals/body language. He's still friendly, but clearly he doesn't want to come close to me nor does he wants me to get close to him.

I know that people are more then just their personality. But reading about it has helped me so much. I'm hoping to get some answers and if the ESTJ's on this forum understand him and can explain to me what's going on.

When is an ESTJ more then just being friendly?
 

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PerC Host, ENTP 5w6 So/Sx 584 ILE
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@Suusje

WELCOME!

I am a Host on PerC. I am available if you have any questions or concerns.

As for your current relationship issues, I advise that you proceed with caution. You are coming off a marriage and interested in someone who appears to be involved with someone else. While you're going to do what you're going to do, I think you would be best served by not jumping without knowing what you're jumping into. You could inadvertently wreck any chance you may have with your ex, or with this prospective new man. I also don't like how this ESTJ is playing with you when he feel he isn't being watched by his girlfriend. That should send up some serious red flags for you. Given your circumstances, you may be predisposed to overlook them, as you're still raw from a previous relationship and feeling a bit vulnerable/lonely/horny. Be careful!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hello tanstaafl28,

Thank you for your reply and yes, I fear that you’re absolutely correct. I’ll share with you some more details with you.

I left my ex about 4 years ago (June 2016). We’re still in touch. But I really doubt that we’ll get back together. When people say that an ISTP isn’t very emotional. They aren’t joking! It’s like living with someone who has got a severe emotional allergy. Always being careful not to be too emotional around him. Because he can’t handle it.
Not an easy task when you’re in INFJ. Especially not when the ISTP, even though he means well, walks right over my feelings.

In a way I still care about him. We’ve been through a lot. Our last months together we managed to get through without any arguments. But I wasn’t happy with him. He seems to need someone who can handle his insensitive side of him and appreciate his caring side. He was caring, but I need someone who can handle the way I feel and is able to show love to me.

I gave up hope that he was going to learn how to do that. So I left. We’re still in touch and we’re friends. He’s telling me that he does and always has had feelings for me.
I might be a very sensitive person, but I’m not a mind reader. He had 10 years for to say those words and in the 10 years we were together. He was unable to tell me that he loves me. He was unable to just come over to me and to give me a hug when I needed one. But he was able to walk away from me whenever he had hurt my feelings and saying something like: ‘What I did, I did it with the best intentions. I cannot change the past. Don’t be angry at me, because I can’t deal with that’.

That was it. No hug no cuddle, no apology for what he did. He didn’t do it with any bad intentions, things just went wrong. In his eyes there never was a reason to be sorry. Things just went really wrong for him (a couple of times). It was never his fault. It just happened.

If he were able to show love. I could have dealt with his behavior of getting us into trouble.
He was always blaming me. For being too emotional. That he would show love if I weren’t so emotional or angry at him when he messes up, again! In a way he does have a point. I wish I could have been a bit more understanding towards him. I wish I had known the things that I know now and that I was more able to handle my emotions. I wasn’t perfect either. He made some mistakes, but usually it was just really bad luck that had hit him. Instead of asking for help when bills were piling up. He’d stick his head in the ground and I had to deal with it on my own.

At some point, after almost 10 years of being together. I took that up as a challenge. I learned to control myself. There were no more arguments and he still wasn’t able to show love. No words of love. No hugs, nothing. If I wanted a hug or anything I just needed to ask him for one.

After a couple of months of that. I decided it was time for a conversation.
He gave me a nice compliment. He said that it was because I had changed, I was able to control my feelings that our marriage was going well. I told him that he still hasn't learned how to show love. And that I’ve totally had it with waiting and hoping for him to tell me how he feels for me and to just feel his arm around me. For him to come to me. Just for to be with me. Without a reason, just because.

That conversation was the end of my patience as well as the end of our marriage. I had enough and so I left him.

That happened 4 years ago. In a way I still have feelings for him. But...
I can deal with his shit, but I’ve totally had it with his emotional allergy!

It’s a shame, because there are some really nice things about him. With him I was (apart from my emotions) able to just be me. Which feels really good. I love to go dancing. He doesn’t like that. But he always let me go out if I wanted to. I really liked that.

He wasn’t jealous and I was even allowed to have a short affair with someone else. He was perfectly fine with that. It wasn’t anything serious. I had a nice time with him and then we both went our own ways.

I’m not jealous either. As long as I feel good with someone. If I don’t feel good or loved by someone. Then I can feel jealous from time to time. For me the most important thing in a relationship isn’t physical loyalty. It’s emotional. I really need someone who just comes over to me and gives me a hug, kiss or tells me that he loves me.

In 2015 I met my ESTJ. Which was a really nice and a special moment. I was by myself at a party. He was talking to someone and when he turned around all of the sudden we were staring in each other’s eyes. I didn’t move and neither did he for, I don’t know for how long. Until he turned around and walked away and I was standing there like: ‘What the… did just happen’?

The next day we met again and we had a small chat. Nothing special, but it just felt really good. There was a lot of eye contact. He was coming closer and closer to me. It felt really good!

I was still with my ex at this time. I was lucky that he wasn’t a jealous husband and I was able to tell him what had happened. He was happy for me.

I do see the red flags and he was also married before. But for some time, he wasn’t happy with her and instead of leaving her. He stayed, because he finds it very difficult for to be on his own. He met his girlfriend and started a relationship with her. While still being married.

I can see this really big red flag. But I still feel love for him. It’s nice to find this place over here to talk about it. I’m also lucky then I can speak with my ex about it. He’s telling me that I’m very likely getting myself into way more trouble than I’ve ever had with him. I think that he might be right.

My ESTJ can be really nice and friendly, but also bruut and blunt to people. It’s like if you’re not standing in his way then he’s really nice and friendly. If you’re in the way of what he wants… That’s when shit hits the fan. I've heard from others that he has got a tendency to step over people's feelings. Although he's never aggressive. he doesn't swear, shout or has ever been (as far as I know) physically aggressive to anyone.

I guess that is what must have happened to his ex wife. She was no longer needed for to look after him and he was gone to live with his new partner. That must be horrible. To find out that your husband has used you, because he's somehow emotionally incapable for to look after himself. Not only did he used her, he also cheated on her. That's so selfish!
I also can't believe how his girlfriend didn't stop him from being so cruel towards his wife. I love him and if this ever becomes a relationship I still can't. No matter how much I care for him. I can't see myself closing an eye towards her feelings. If he isn't happy with her, then he must leave her. If he can't look after himself then he needs to find a way that will work for him and isn't disrespectful towards anyone's feelings.

While writing this I’m thinking…
I did leave my partner too. Was I insensitive? It doesn’t feel to me like I was. But I kind of did the same thing. Although I didn’t run away with someone else. I just run away after about 10 years of marriage and a couple of good months that we had together. I left because I was totally fed up with waiting for him to show some feelings towards me. And I didn’t really gave him a warning that I was about to do that. When we were in trouble I did let him know that I needed him. But when things went well, I didn’t really say anything. I was patiently waiting for him to independently think about showing me how he feels about me. When things went well and he couldn’t blame me anymore for being too emotional. I told him that I was done with waiting for him to show me some feelings and I left.

This is terrible!
While I’m writing this. I'm thinking about how I’ve ended other relationships in my life and that went kind of the same way. It’s funny that I don’t feel like I was insensitive. But maybe in a way I was a bit insensitive. For me, I tried to make the relationship work. Up to a point where things seem to go well. But I still didn’t feel happy with the other person. So I left. I’ve only had one serious relationship and that was with my ex husband.

One time I did walk around a city at night. Because I refused to sleep with someone. He had really hurt me. He said that I’d have my own bed and he wouldn’t touch me. But still I preferred to spend the night on the street then to be anywhere near him. It was only a couple of hours until my train that I needed to get back home would leave. Instead of spending a lot of money on a hotel room. I walked around the streets. I do admit I should learn to be more careful. That was a dangerous thing for me to do.

But the thing is that I listen more to my feelings then I’m able to use my brain. If I really feel I don’t want to be close to someone or I’ve had enough. Then that feeling wins it from whatever logical reasoning. Even important things like my personal safety will lose it from how I feel. Which I know it’s not a good thing. But it’s difficult for me to change that.

Back to my ESTJ, or I think that he’s an ESTJ.
I’ve been craving for someone to hold me for such a long time. That it feels really good when he pushes his body against mine. I can see the red flags, but there’s the problem. I can see them, I know it. But I don’t feel the danger. I feel really good when I’m close to him. It’s so difficult for me to ignore how I feel.

Last summer I thought that I would do a clever thing by telling him how I feel. Followed by saying that I know that’s not right, because you do have a girlfriend. So I’m going to take my distance from you. I just wanted you to know this so you wouldn’t worry about why I’m ignoring you or if you’ve said or done something wrong to me.

His reaction was:
No! I don’t worry about anything. It’s always nice to see you.

I really thought he would say something like: Thank you for letting me know and I do agree. It will be better if we leave each other alone.
Instead he’s telling me that he doesn’t mind and it’s always nice for him to see me. That’s not helping me and only now I’m writing all this down I’m starting to think.

Did I try to run away from someone, again? I guess this is the first time that someone successfully managed to stop me from running away from him.

I feel that something is going on between us. But I’m not sure. He sometimes behaves a bit strange when he’s around me. Or when he gets half the chance he pushes his body totally against mine. I just love that feeling when I feel his body against mine. But that’s it. Nothing more happens and he never asks me out or anything.

But I don’t want to hurt anyone. Either he’s just playing with me and my feelings or he also has feelings for me. Either way he’s an ass towards his girlfriend.
I’m not sure if it was that very same night. Or about a week after I’ve told him that I’ve feelings for him. That he posted on his facebook how much he loves his girlfriend. My thoughts were: ‘Yeah right! If you truly love her that much. Then you’d have agreed with me that it was best for to leave each other alone’.

Either you’re playing with my feelings. Or you’re lying about your own feelings towards your girlfriend.

What do I do now? What’s scary is that I never realized that I’ve been slamming my door in, I don’t know how many people’s faces in my life. Until I’m writing this post.

Is this normal for an INFJ? Or am I an INFJ with a door slamming issue? Am I insensitive? Some people say that I hurt them. But if they wouldn’t hurt me to start with then there wouldn’t be a reason for me to leave them alone.


Thank you! It felt really good to write all this down and to share it with everyone.
 

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Well, I asked. You definitely have a lot of things going on in your heart and mind. I think it sounds to me like you just want to love and be loved and do not have time for people who aren't clear with their feelings. I forget whether you mentioned your enneagram type. If you have not explored that, I humbly suggest you may want to. It will definitely help you learn more about why you (and others) feel and behave the way they do. MBTI is great for getting a handle on cognitive matters, but it does not really help to explain deep-seated emotionally motivated behaviors as well as the enneagram does.

I wonder if your ex may be on the autism spectrum, or have some sort of childhood trauma that caused him to bottle up, discount and suppress his feelings. His affect does not appear fully developed. Perhaps he just never learned to proceed from a point where he acknowledges how he feels. If he wasn't meeting your needs after 10 years, there's a good chance he never would.

As for the ESTJ, you decided to set clear boundaries to protect your heart. It seems to me like he wants to keep you in a sort of "fallback position", in case whomever he is with right now doesn't work out. That's no way to be either. You are right to stand up for your wants and needs. They are valid and you should never compromise them.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I’m an INFJ. MBTI is a wonderful way to learn more about myself and others. I’m new with MBTI, but by reading about it I’m learning more and more about myself and others every day. What I also really love about it. Is the humor and there seems to be no right or wrong. People just are as they are and you can learn and grow. But you can’t really chance anyone.

My ex was bullied at school and he didn’t have a very good relationship with his parents. He dealt with his issues by staying away from everyone as much as possible. He did the same thing as an adult. When things were good, we were good. We were happy together.
But it was always difficult for him to show how he feels or to understand my feelings. ISTP and feelings don’t seem to match really well.

For me my feelings and those of the people around me are very important to me. To be honest I should have known earlier to let go of my ESTJ. But it's difficult to do that. Because it feels so good to be so close to him.
Years ago, he wasn’t respectful towards his wife. Now he isn’t respectful towards his girlfriend. Why, if we’d become a couple. Why would he start to treat me with respect? It’s unlikely that that is going to happen.

I let my feelings walk away with me. I find it so difficult to change how I feel about someone. I’m glad with myself that I did manage to try to stop this, whatever this is. But he managed to stop me from walking away from him.

And there’s this little voice in my head saying. But what if he’s going to be different with you? It’s like my mind and my heart are constantly fighting each other. I wish that I would be able to not love this man anymore. But I’ve no idea how to do that.

I didn’t had such a good childhood either. My father died when I was 9, but he was 79 at that time. He had his good, but also really his bad sides. He could be verbally aggressive to me and everyone around him. He also touched me in places where he shouldn’t be touching me.
Maybe that’s why I’ve a thing for older men who are not that emotional.

I’d like to have a nice loving partner. At the same time, I’m happy on my own and I wish I was able to never feel love for anyone else. Because I never want to feel so alone and all this pain like I’ve felt with my ex. For me the good times don’t weigh up against the bad ones.

And then again it feels so really good whenever I'm close to him (ESTJ) again. It makes me feel like I wish that there really was something and that we could be together.
 
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