[niki]

Help! a 29-yrs old INFP Asian eldest son's "eternal" conflict with his ISTP father

(Note: for those of you who want to skip to my main, core questions, without needing to read the details, you can just skip right away to my 2nd post just below this one. thanks)

It all finally comes down to this point..where I feel that I probably really have to post my always enduring, 'eternal' conflict (of values) with my ISTP father.

I will try to make this as concise and straigh-forward as possible,
but a little bit intro of my background (as I feel that this is really important):
I'm a 29-yrs old from Indonesia, with Chinese ethnicity. plus I'm an eldest son.
the reason I'm telling you this is so you can also consider the Cultural differences perhaps between the western and eastern (Asian) traditions and values.

Ever since I've graduated like 9 yrs ago from U.S, with a degree in Business (Finance & Management), I've got into a "career limbo" and confusion, with the repetitive cycle of enter the job, dislike it (not my real passion), quit it, then 'apply' another job, even still until now. and what I mean by 'apply' is actually, in fact, to work under my father's business (the first was joint-family business in furniture, for 6 yrs, then I quit because of stress, pressures, lack of interest/zero motivation, etc. now I'm working with my father again in lodging/cheap hotels & pigment business, but also found myself constantly losing motivations as I personally deeply find it too 'mundane' and 'meaningless', perhaps because it's not according to my Values).


Now here's the main problem with my ISTP father:

Over all my 'adult' years, I've sometimes tried to tell him -sometimes directly, but perhaps quite often indirectly, in a typical 'soft-spoken' INFP manner- about what I really value in life (my Values), my Priorities, etc. and also I've often engaged in some exchanging-opinions, even debates.

But the problem always comes because mainly of two things: 1) he's a very stubborn, and 'proudful' person, that too often think that his opinions are always the correct ones, even the 'Truth'! often downplay other's opinions, including mine 2) our values & perspectives in Life is often different in MANY things, especially when it comes to -what else- a Career & Future prospect-talks and discussions!

In much more details, what I'm often very frustrated that my father can't seem to see nor acknowledge are things as follow:

1) He doesn't and perhaps never will believe in the thing called "Personality Test", including the MBTI. I've tried to explain, naw, even just opened my mouth about this in trying to explain, but the first sentence/words coming from his 'stubborn' mouth is:
"I don't believe in bullshit such as that, it's the same as believing in horoscope! why would u believe & RESTRICTING yourself in MANY things to such MAN-MADE things?? you're so stupid!" , and this almost always followed by his seemingly motto of life: "EVERYBODY can learn and can become great, in ANY thing, no matter what! it's just a matter of whether you WANT it, or not!", a sentiment that actually I quite agree, but when I've tried to explain further and more deeper that basically "it's not that simple, things, and people, goes beyond that simplicity", he always dismissed it and think it's all just my EXCUSES for don't want to try hard, for example: in the family business, to retain a higher Position in the company, etc. I think you all probably know already what I mean..

2) To him, the most important, utmost important thing in life is: Money, and Status. no other else! this is where my relationship with him often goes rocky, and it's just sad of how it has degraded even much worse as I grew into my 30s, and admittedly still 'stuck' very much in terms career/job, still had no 'success' whatsoever, especially in terms of money, and status.
Now, at one level, I've eventually learned to appreciate his real concerns, as any parent would, over how I'm probably still very much dependent on him and still showed no sign of being an 'Independent adult' (ie: still haven't married, still living in same house, still work with him but with LITTLE signs of motivations/interest to continue his business and assume higher responsibilities).
But on the other hand/side, I (and even all people in the family, ie: my ISFJ mother, my two brothers, and also our driver, etc) can really 'smell' and see of how very, utmost important Money and Status (prestige) is for him. now, I don't know if it's perhaps related with the Chinese's "money-oriented" worldview/mindset too, but I'm guessing it play a major factor in shaping his mindset too.. (or perhaps, he's seeing the world as it is? ie: the world that emphasize everything about Money and Status, unfortunately ??..)
sadly, all his 'values' above (ie: money and status) is actually not my main priority in life. so you can see how many conflicts often arise from this 'different perspective/values'.
So basically, in practicality, he only wants me to either choose a job/career that can make most $$$, and also prestige status (eg: in big company, etc), or create a business that will have most $$$ and profits.
but unfortunately, I don't share his view...to me: bettering the world/humanity and seeking for ultimate Truth becomes my main priority, also as well as having creativity in the job. Purpose is very important for me.

3) Age and education. So for my father, he said basically it's already "too LATE" for me if I want to study again at Uni (ie: so I can expand my future career choice/prospect, especially if the career/job requires a 'formal' Uni degree), because I'm now already almost 30! His philosophy regarding this is basically: "it's time for you to NOT study, but to be SOMETHING, to start working, to produce SOMETHING!".

.
These are all still some examples, but already quite the MAIN ones.
in our everyday life, even in small things & events, we often like to debate & exchange ideas, sometimes I like it when he's genuinely really exchanging ideas/perspectives, but as usual, it becomes irritating, even frustrating, when he sometimes eventually would FORCE his opinion/perspective to be the 'almighty' right ones, and even don't want to hear (or downplay) my opinions/perspectives! (perhaps also caused by my apparent 'lack of success' by today's society measurement..!).
Not to mention that I (& even also my brothers/family members) can sense his 'bias' in his stubborn opinions/perspectives, that he doesn't want to see the 'Bigger Picture', nor acknowledging other's opinions/perspectives.

With all these details, I will proceed to my CORE questions to all of you ISTPs, in a hope to find some solutions...because frankly, I've had enough, and things really needed to be fixed and I feel that I can't wait any longer, I need to really DO something! or I will forever become 'stuck', confused, and indecisive 'failure', not only in his eyes, but also as a matter of factly myself!

(please continue to the post below, which is my CORE, main questions)

 

[niki]

With all the details above, so here's my main questions:

1) Do you think it's not completely hopeless, meaning that it CAN still be fixed, ie: parent-son relationship between an ISTP (father) and INFP (son, me myself) ? or almost impossible?

2) if you said yes it can be fixed, then what's usually the BEST thing I can DO, as a son, to remedy this relationship problems?
what's the Best way, really? what are ISTP's most important thing/values, for me to be able to acknowledge them?

3) Do you have some opinions perhaps about the three examples of his 'stubborn' opinions I've given above? do you perhaps notice where he's wrong, or where I'm wrong? or, it's simply different values & perspectives? then, how to solve/fix this?

thank you~

 

[reletative]

First of all, you're father does not sound like an ISTP. ISTP are usually very ANTI-status and generally laid-back and not super ambitious. Perhaps the influence of culture you speak of could effect it somewhat, but ISTP are also generally very reserved in enforcing their opinions on other people. They live very much with a "you do your thing, i'll do mine" mentality.

So, I'm not really sure how to give you advice. What makes you believe your father is ISTP?

 

[MXZCCT]

Stop kissing ass to your father.

Your not going to agree on everything, or anything, so what? Get over it.

When you speak to him, look him in the eye and confidence.

If you want him to respect you, you have to respect yourself. He can probably read right through that soft spoken exterior of yours.

And this is all basic information, not taking into account of MBTI (or the "horoscope" shit your father claims it to be), whether he is an ISTP or not. He appears like an ISTJ.

 

[zynthaxx]

Coming from the opposite direction - I have an INFP mother - I don't ever think you will agree when it comes to values. If you have anywhere near a similar relationship when it comes to personalities, you experience the world in so different ways, and value so different aspects even of the areas where you basically agree, that you'll always have a chasm between you.

That said, I think the best way to earn your parents' respect no matter type, is to show that the way you live your life makes you happy and makes others respect you. To do this, you need to find your own way to keep your motivation high, and, when it inevitably drops, find your own way of rebuilding it. You need to feel that your life is meaningful. Again: This is, in my opinion, the best way to earn your parents' respect - but there never are any guarantees.

 

[thunder]

Follow your values, make your decisions, live your life -- show him though your life choices and results that what you value gives you the happiness and success you care about. Stand your ground. Tell him you respect his opinion and perspective, but that in the end you're making the decisions as to how you want to approach life. If being around him and hearing his words hurts too much, perhaps you should think about moving out to your own place if it is an option.

 

[DJArendee]

What if he's INTJ? My older brother said nearly the exact same thing when I told him about MBTI. He compared it to horoscopes.

 

[NotedBook300]

I agree with @Khys; he doesn't sound very ISTP to me. He just sounds like a dick. I wouldn't bother with him.

I've never regarded family as highly as others do. I cut my little brother from my life the second I could because he's a pathetic human being, and being blood doesn't change his value to me. If I was your father's son, I probably wouldn't even give him the time of day.

 

[Siren]

Facts based on reading the above:

1) You will never change his opinion that money and status are the most important things in life.
2) You need to find a career that makes you happy OR suck it up in a less fulfilling career and find something outside work to make you happy.
3) It's never too late to go back to school. You can work during the day and go at night or take online classes.
4) You can't fix the relationship with your father by yourself. Short of completely changing who you are and conforming 100% to his standards, that is. He doesn't appear willing to meet you halfway. Sooner or later you are going to have to accept that this will never be the relationship you'd like it to be and just try to make it the best it can be. If it were me I'd cut him loose, but that's just me.
5) You need to move out of the house and get your own place as soon as humanly possible.

It's possible that he is just concerned for your future and just expressing it poorly because you don't know how to talk to each other effectively. My mother used to try to control me with money. I told her repeatedly to stop it she didn't. Finally, after I cut her out of my life, she decided she wanted a real relationship with me on a personal level. She was an INTJ and I suspect your father is an IXTJ as well.

If he is a J one thing you could try is to sit down and write out a plan for the next few years (let's face it, you're 30ish, no great job and you live at home - you need a plan for the future). make it well thought out and realistic, with some details but not overly dependent on specifics. Present it to your father and ask for his input. It could really backfire, but at least he will know you are thing about the future and you will have written down what you would like to accomplish. Then follow the plan regardless of what he thinks (see #5 above).

I think this is the longest post I've ever written roud:

 

[Kadjunga]

Honestly, you can not fix it yourself and you will grow old and be even more stressed out by attempting it. Just cut the loss and do what you think is best for you. To hell with appeasing the family values system of everyone. I know this is major taboo in asia but... thats what you should do.

Move to the states, become a police officer, whatever! Follow your dream.

The way you are going now will only make you even more stressed and eventually snap. Snap at the people you care about.

 

[DustyDrill]

After skimming your post (I have an ISTP attention span, sorry) my initial reaction was "Why don't you just do what you want to do?"

Does that sound like your Dad? Probably not. But that's basically how ISTPs live life. We do whatever we want as long as we won't die in the process. When we pander to the masses we become depressed and frustrated. So, either your Dad isn't an ISTP or he's a very unhealthy ISTP who has major external validation issues.

That being said, regardless of your Dad's type or how he speaks, one thing is for certain. He wants you to succeed. Every concern he has in terms of your direction in life is out of concern for you. Remember that.

The best advice I can give you is to show him what you're made of. Regardless of what path you take. If you take a path with less money or status, show him you're happy. They easiest way to do that is to become independent of him. If you survive with a smile, you've succeeded. He can't argue with that.

 

[niki]

thank you for all your advices. I really appreciate all of them, it means a lot to me!
indeed these all make me think & ponder really hard now as what I really have to DO, quickly, before it's really too late.

First of all, you're father does not sound like an ISTP. ISTP are usually very ANTI-status and generally laid-back and not super ambitious. Perhaps the influence of culture you speak of could effect it somewhat, but ISTP are also generally very reserved in enforcing their opinions on other people. They live very much with a "you do your thing, i'll do mine" mentality.

So, I'm not really sure how to give you advice. What makes you believe your father is ISTP?

@Khys and others: I assume he's an ISTP because of several things:

1) he's literally the "Mechanic". eg: he's always active and like to run around the house fixing things (and thus always viewed me as "lazy" for mostly just love reading books and internet). this is probably the number one reason I'm pretty sure, as ISTP description -strangely- precisely labelled as "The Mechanics". it just fits him so well and honestly shocked me a lot when I first read into it. and when he's fixing things, he often forgets time, which leads to my #2 point below.

2) I would mostly guess that he's a "P", because he's quite disorganized and 'moody', in terms of he likes to work "as he pleases" in any time. ie: our lodging/cheap hotel business is a good example of how we (yes, me and him) go there whenever he likes, ie: can be at morning, afternoon, or night. quite flexible, it's not a 9-to-5 thing, and I don't think he'll like it too. it's proven already by his manners & 'arguments' against my ISFJ mom about structure, and about Punctuality (ie: he's often late too, especially for an activity he deems to be less of interest to him, like big-family gathering, or going to church, etc).
although he often said & advised me quite differently, ie: to be punctual, to be organized, etc.
I'd guess even he himself could actually see the 'importance' of all these in the society, and like he often told me: "how can you work with someone else, or do business, if you're being late, 'lazy', and half-ass like that??.."
and sometimes he even can be quite 'organized', if it's required/needed. like wake up in early morning to meet important people (usually for business), etc, while me I'm more into "if it doesn't have any BIG purpose/value, then what's the point?? it's all meaningless, and I'm too lazy to put myself & my energy into all of this!"

3) he's a Thinker. and a damn real Thinker, not Feeler, that one is for sure!
and he's often been labeled and viewed as quite 'insensitive' to other family members' feelings, quite 'selfish' and only can see his own opinions and wants. We at the house often have to yield to his wants and opinions..
plus, I have to say though that he's a GOOD thinker, no doubt about it, because it's not only family members, but many people already acknowledged him as a quite "smart, witty" person. unfortunately, it have to come with his bad attitudes & personality...
and again, like I've told in #1 point: he's literally a Mechanic, ie: he can fix almost everything that he sees and meets with his hands, he even beats many 'professional' mechanics, be it car, automobile, water pump, toilet closet, etc etc.

4) and I don't think he's an Intuitive, instead he's most probably a Sensor, because he always only want to see things as "the way the world is" (eg: my #2 point in OP about the 'money' and 'status' thing), and can't see (nor want to see) any other possibilities!
anything that's beyond "the way the world is", especially my often INFP-ish 'creative, imaginative, out-of-this-world' ideas is regarded by him as absurd, silly, naive, BS, waste of time only, childish,...you name it. he's also a VERY practical person! (although he likes to sometimes discusses & engaged in some debates, it's almost always in "practical" world, reality-sense, and he hates theories very much, IMHO).

5) Introvert = definitely. because he really lacks social circles & friends. and he just love to read newspaper and watch TV at house all day long, even in weekends. he's only out when he has to work, or have some urgent needs/things to buy, or when fixing things.

so that's all my reasons for assuming heavily that he's an ISTP.
let me know what you guys think, or if I made a mistake(s) in my assessment about him, or about an ISTP in general.

 

[niki]

After skimming your post (I have an ISTP attention span, sorry) my initial reaction was "Why don't you just do what you want to do?"

Does that sound like your Dad? Probably not. But that's basically how ISTPs live life. We do whatever we want as long as we won't die in the process. When we pander to the masses we become depressed and frustrated. So, either your Dad isn't an ISTP or he's a very unhealthy ISTP who has major external validation issues.

That being said, regardless of your Dad's type or how he speaks, one thing is for certain. He wants you to succeed. Every concern he has in terms of your direction in life is out of concern for you. Remember that.

The best advice I can give you is to show him what you're made of. Regardless of what path you take. If you take a path with less money or status, show him you're happy. They easiest way to do that is to become independent of him. If you survive with a smile, you've succeeded. He can't argue with that.

@DustyDrill : unfortunately and sadly, the factors that you said above which I've bolded might prove to be true.
according to my mother, and also my uncle's story: my dad had quite a bitter past story in his childhood (sadly) -that I prefer don't conceal it here for privacy reason- that perhaps might have some factors (even if it's only a tiny fractions!) that reshaped all his current thinking-pattern and values.
not only that, but truthfully, he's been hurted a lot in his life, ie: he literally 'failed' most of his business/enterpreneur endeavors, sadly, and he's been lied and tricked so many times by some (or should I perhaps say: many!) corrupt people here in my country (Indonesia, quite notorious as one of most corrupt country in the world...and I'm certainly not proud with that reputation!).

So all of these might play some really important roles embedded into his subsconsciousness.
you are probably right.

 

[niki]

no response, at all?..
still need your help here, after I've described quite much about my father above..
perhaps with more details like I've described above, you would understand the situation better and hence provide another more detailed practical advices as well.

I'm really counting on all of you here.

thanks~

 

[Stelmaria]

I don't really see him learning in any other way than seeing you move on with your own life and seeing how living your life in a different way to him still makes you happy.

 

[DJArendee]

I'm always confused with the "I do what I want" mentality. I feel like most personalities "do what they want" otherwise they WOULDN'T BE DOING IT!

Listen, you can't change his values, and he most likely isn't going to, out of nowhere, accept your lifestyle choices. If your father is anything like my family, the most you can do is tell them to screw off, do your own thing and in the future they'll just have to get used to it. Anytime the subject is brought up you can hang up the phone, whatever. If he doesn't like the way you live he shouldn't have raised you. Your relationship will either heal in the future, or the two of you will remain standoffish because he's being an idiot. Its your life, so you're going to live it how you want to.

 

[nordic28]

Hi, i'm newbie here, but i hope this helpful

2) To him, the most important, utmost important thing in life is: Money, and Status. no other else! this is where my relationship with him often goes rocky, and it's just sad of how it has degraded even much worse as I grew into my 30s, and admittedly still 'stuck' very much in terms career/job, still had no 'success' whatsoever, especially in terms of money, and status.

If you said your dad put Money and Status upon anything, then probably he ever underestimated by his friends or somebody, that makes him want to PROVE himself to the world that he's a capable man. What will make the world notice you? Money & status of course.

3) Do you have some opinions perhaps about the three examples of his 'stubborn' opinions I've given above? do you perhaps notice where he's wrong, or where I'm wrong? or, it's simply different values & perspectives? then, how to solve/fix this?

For this, I think that he has faced many bitter-sweet of life which make him pretty sure that he's wise enough about life purpose or something like that which nobody could understand his 'wisdom'. My mother always being like that too. I always pretend agree with her (and do whatever i want to do without her knowing).

2) if you said yes it can be fixed, then what's usually the BEST thing I can DO, as a son, to remedy this relationship problems?
what's the Best way, really? what are ISTP's most important thing/values, for me to be able to acknowledge them?

I think, for this, you have to talk to him. Well, if I were you, I'll tell him that finally I can think about his wisdom CLEARLY. That I realize his opinion was the best and I try to follow his way of life, etc. And ask him what & where should I begin to start the money making and follow his advise, maybe he will slowly open himself to you.
Sometimes, parents can think that THEY KNOW THE BEST FOR THEIR CHILDREN (it's more ISFJ I think). They just want the best for us, but they not usually know exactly what's the best for us.

Sorry, if this cant help you. I's still a newbie:happy:

 

[DustyDrill]

I'm always confused with the "I do what I want" mentality. I feel like most personalities "do what they want" otherwise they WOULDN'T BE DOING IT!

You've never met my girlfriend. You think it's confusing to understand? Try watching it in action.

 

[Empty]

Confucius basically said if one's father/superior is an ignorant dick then they are not worthy of being followed.


So, there's your answer.

 

[Seralya]

1) Do you think it's not completely hopeless, meaning that it CAN still be fixed, ie: parent-son relationship between an ISTP (father) and INFP (son, me myself) ? or almost impossible?

I wouldn't say it's impossible in general, but I would say that it is impossible right now. I agree with the people above - you should consider your needs and your life as your highest priority. You should break free from him and his complaints and find your success elsewhere. Tone the contact down to the minimum for a year or two, find who you are and where you want to be, and when you have the wind under your wings, then try to mend the relationship. It is way easier for anyone to re-think a relationship and one's opinion about a person when given some space.

When I lived at home between the high school and university, applying into places and not getting in to what I wanted, my ISTP mother was quite difficult to live with. She seemed quite unhappy, complained that I hadn't done the housework to the standard she wanted to - one day it was about dust on the fridge, the other day it was about unwashed windows (during the cold season!) and so on. For a while I tried to fix the things she had complained the day before, until I saw there was no use of that - the complaints always changed to something new, something I didn't even know she wanted done, so I stopped trying. I guess she was frustrated about her needing to still do so much to provide for an adult child who "wasn't even trying".

I moved abroad and started studying, visited home every now and then, and after a couple of years the situation got better. Since then our relationship has been just fine.

My question: How was your father treating you when you were studying (=being useful)? Has it changed since you graduated and did not get a job?

2) if you said yes it can be fixed, then what's usually the BEST thing I can DO, as a son, to remedy this relationship problems? what's the Best way, really? what are ISTP's most important thing/values, for me to be able to acknowledge them?

This is a wrong question. 'Acknowledging values' works with INFPs, but not really with ISTPs - we do not have such a value base. I would say that the closest thing would be 'understanding our reasoning', at least attempting to. He wants you to succeed, he probably wants you to have those things he was denied, but at the same time he's holding the reins so tight that you can't do but follow. If you can make him understand that, logically, you cannot have that success he wants in the life he's making for you, and because of that you need to do something else, he might listen.. I wouldn't hold my breath, though.

3) Do you have some opinions perhaps about the three examples of his 'stubborn' opinions I've given above? do you perhaps notice where he's wrong, or where I'm wrong? or, it's simply different values & perspectives? then, how to solve/fix this?

Eh. Ok.

1. MBTI vs Horoscopes: Well, it depends on how you present it, and how you understand it yourself. I would say that you both are right in this. Claiming that you can't do something because it's in your personality, bullshit. A friend of mine seems to have this idea as well, talking about how he is not logical and how it's a failure not to be a thinker.. blah blah. Bullshit. Do not use MBTI as an excuse for NOT doing something or NOT being something, but rather use it as a tool to attempt to understand others' behavior and thinking patterns and finding the things you are good at. Do NOT believe everything you read, but consider it and figure out how much of it really fits. You can start from one situation and arrive to the same conclusion using different processes, so it's not so much about the results but HOW you get them. One can be perfectly logical even if one's a feeler, one just seems to consider another set of 'facts'. If he really is an ISTP and you're an INFP, and if you still want to cooperate with him, maybe you can take on such tasks you're better equipped to do? I guess that as it is his business he already knows 'how to do it', but the first things I would like to drop as an ISTP would be the contacts with business partners and customers. I'd be happy tinkering with the hardware instead.

So ... advice: use the MBTI for your advantage, not as an "excuse", and it might go down easier. If he's an ISTP he would need to see a practical use of the instrument; a set of theories is useless without one.

2. I like money as having it would let me buy new toys and I like having some sort of a status so that other people would listen to what I have to say. Less hassle that way. Other than that they're not too important to me. I would also want people important to me have good jobs and a good life. Using money as a measuring stick is the easy way to do this, of course. Maybe your reasoning about your values looks too fluffy to him, to idealistic and naïve to be taken seriously.. I mean, do you actually have a plan? What would you want to do instead and why aren't you doing it already?

3. Can you afford another education? What would you want to study anyway? If you just want to have a purpose, why can't you have it with your current education? I mean, every NGO needs to deal with finances and stuff. You should be able to worm in to an interesting place with your education, and then widen your perspective and your range from there.