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Discussion Starter #1
Ok so I know someone who is definitely ISTJ... in his first two tests he scored ISTJ, but after that every other test he takes, he gets INTJ.

But he is not INTJ. He is an ISTJ. He has a very strong connection with reality and emphasizes way too much on the "obviousness" of reality -- often making conclusions that "this is how it always is".... "of course it's like that!" etc etc.... without further deeper critical insight into anything. That's not to say he's not smart, he is smart but in his own way, in different things (the more technical workable things)

Now he really thinks he is an INTJ. He is pretty defensive and sensitive to people's opinions too... so how do I tell him he is an ISTJ and allow him to accept that it's OK being an ISTJ and the fact is...he is an ISTJ? I always tell him I like both INTJs and ISTJs as friends and one isn't necessarily better than the other, but the truth is I communicate more effectively and easily with fellow N's, that's all. In the same way, he feels more at ease with S personalities, but gets along with N personalities too.
 
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It's also possible that he'll come to the realization on his own without any prompting on your part (or anyone else's part).
Having said that, though, there are "degrees" of ISTJ-ness, as well as well as INTJ-ness. While I suppose it's possible, not many people are 100% "S" or 100% "N". Your friend may be hovering somewhere in the middle regions. I agree with Qadosh on this one.
I do have to ask though, why do you think that defensive and sensitive people are ISTJ's (or vice versa)?
 

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I do have to ask though, why do you think that defensive and sensitive people are ISTJ's (or vice versa)?
Because INTJs are cooler. ISTJs are usually seen as boring, whereas I think INTJs are generally less frustrating to people... and cooler.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Sorry, let me clarify what I meant by defensive and sensitive (as we all are about different things, mind you). I meant that he is sensitive to non-linear thinking if it's used too much... thus, to certain ways of asserting opinions from other people. What doesn't make sense to him will baffle him and put him under the pressure that he has to think an extra mile or two, but he begins to show frustration and the more he's put into this situation the more he becomes sensitive to opinions that make little to no sense to him. He is super duper comfortable with the common sense approach and relies heavily on what's been proven in the past -- using this as a benchmark for the present. He is very logical, smart, decisive, idea-oriented, etc. But he keeps it workable all the time. He doesn't prefer venturing through theories too much or at all, however, he likes to talk about topics that interest him such as a favourite movie or a favourite historical figure. He keeps aligned with the concrete facts and isn't open to venturing the 'what if's' until it's a proven fact.

I tend to walk on egg shells around him, to be honest. I'm sure he feels the same way about me too -- in fact, I know he does that with me too.

Qadosh, if you like to believe so. But this is not about who is cooler or hotter or what ever. That's not absolute or definite. It's relative and people have to make effort, it's not only about what comes naturally to you all the time. In fact, arrogance for instance, without earning something through sheer effort, is not cool and a lot of personality types carry this facet. Some people are so used to and accepting of being the misunderstood creature in a million that they have a knack to justify everything and put the whole blame onto the world and others, only seeing their own efforts above others. That's not cool. So you see, anyone can do that, it's not INTJ Vs ISTJ. So what's this thread about? It's about getting someone to be comfortable under their own skin.

But thank you anyway for the replies. I think that yes he needs to reach the conclusion by himself -- but I just want him to know that it's OK to be open to the likelihood that he could be an ISTJ and it's just a personality type. He is still different to the next ISTJ or the next person. Same way if he was an INTJ. Yah...
 
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It's a self reporting and self discovery system. Unless he gets in depth enough to start studying cognitive functions, it's an argument that you can't win. Si and Ni are hard to recognize and define, especially in others. ISTJs and INTJs have a lot of similarities, especially in social situations. I'd be hard pressed to tell someone what they is or what they ain't.

Let it go.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Good point. But what if he can't let go of the INTJ hype? It's too generalized... a person is an individual first. Not all INTJs are the same regardless of relating to each other's experiences nor are all ISTJs the same as one another. Anyways, yes, I suppose it's not too much of my problem :laughing:
 
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Good point. But what if he can't let go of the INTJ hype? It's too generalized... a person is an individual first. Not all INTJs are the same regardless of relating to each other's experiences nor are all ISTJs the same as one another. Anyways, yes, I suppose it's not too much of my problem :laughing:
Yep, you got it at the end.:happy:
 

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I think this poll better illustrates the point I was trying to make about INTJs being more popular and less loathed than ISTJs. ISTJs lead the poll for all types here.

EDIT: Okay so it won't link properly.

Go here: http://personalitycafe.com/member-polls/

Then look for the thread named "Poll: If you had an "Archenemy" what MBTI type would they be?" and look at the results.

EDIT #2: oops. I misread it. ESTJs are in first. Oh, well close enough.
 

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Funny, I was talking with my son last night about this. I didn't vote as it is more complex than that. In online MBTI communities:

XNTX

These are the highest rated with INTP and INTJ sharing top honors. ENTPs are next with ENTJs bringing up the rear of this group.

XNFX

These are the next highest rated group. INFJ has the top spot with ENFJ running a close second. These two are almost up to the level of ENTJs. ENFPs are next and seem loved and tolerated, but they have to work for respect. INFPs are generally dismissed as being angst-ridden. Being the most populous doesn't help INFPs as some just like to hate on the biggest group.

XSXP

Being perceivers helps this group place above the SJs. ISTPs lead the pack with ESTPs also garnering their share of respect--albeit grudgingly given at times. ESFPs are next, leaving the poor ISFPs wondering what went wrong.

XSXJ

And draggin in at last place, we have the SJs. First is the ESFJ, tolerated by everyone because they mean well, followed by the ISFJ who is a warmer and fuzzier version of the ISTJ, and bringing up the rear are the ones everyone loves to hate--the ESTJs.

And there you have the online MBTI caste system.:wink:
My perspective from another thread...
 

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Because INTJs are cooler. ISTJs are usually seen as boring, whereas I think INTJs are generally less frustrating to people... and cooler.
... only in people's minds and MAYBE to a certain extent on PerC and other similar forums. In the latter, I can definitely see the "me too" mentality, where people WANT to fit in to what's hip and popular. Honestly, I have to wonder that the only people that give a crap about that are caving in to peer pressure.

I know for a fact that some people think I'm boring. Turn it around the other way, though ... the ones that think I'm boring haven't taken the time to discover the unique quirks about my type (or likely other types that don't "appeal" to them, for that matter), so the question that begs to be asked is who is really the boring one here? :crazy:

/rawr
 

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Sorry, let me clarify what I meant by defensive and sensitive (as we all are about different things, mind you). I meant that he is sensitive to non-linear thinking if it's used too much... thus, to certain ways of asserting opinions from other people. What doesn't make sense to him will baffle him and put him under the pressure that he has to think an extra mile or two, but he begins to show frustration and the more he's put into this situation the more he becomes sensitive to opinions that make little to no sense to him.
So tell him it's okay for him to stop you and ask you to restate your facts/opinions in linear terms. If you're his friend (and vice-versa) both types will make the attempt to accomodate the other if possible ... but you have to SAY SOMETHING!

It's hard for us to ASK a non-linear type to break it down (some less mature non-linear types may think that asking for clarification is a weakness, but it's NOT), but once you DO, you should be gold. I have an INTP friend, and once I made it clear that I operate MUCH better in a linear fashion, he does TRY to rephrase something if I don't "get it" the first time around. He KNOWS I'm not "stupid", in fact he knows that the exact opposite is true. It's not a matter of anyone's intelligence, it's just how the intelligence gets from Point A to Point B :happy:
 

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Good point. But what if he can't let go of the INTJ hype? It's too generalized... a person is an individual first. Not all INTJs are the same regardless of relating to each other's experiences nor are all ISTJs the same as one another. Anyways, yes, I suppose it's not too much of my problem :laughing:
Well, that's exactly what I said before, but in different words. One person might be 60% "S" and someone else might be 90% "S".
On the flip side, someone might be 60% "N" and someone else might be 90% "N".
There are degrees of everything. It's all good.
I have to repeat that he'll come to it on his own.
 

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"and bringing up the rear are the ones everyone loves to hate--the ESTJs."

... but Riker is an ESTJ and he's pretty awesome :laughing:
William T. Riker - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki
Remember two qualifying statements about what I wrote:

niss63 said:
Funny, I was talking with my son last night about this. I didn't vote as it is more complex than that. In online MBTI communities:

<snip>

And there you have the online MBTI caste system.
*niss looks around and doesn't see Riker*:wink:
 
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Remember two qualifying statements about what I wrote:



*niss looks around and doesn't seek Riker*:wink:
Oh yeah, I kind of skimmed over the whole "online" part. Oops. Well, I don't know any ONLINE ESTJ's, but I know one IRL and he's an alright guy.
 
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