Personality Cafe banner

1 - 20 of 46 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,207 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It is like alternating between dancing on the clouds and chewing on glass. Damn it. My marriage is cold and dead but I am stuck for awhile for financial reasons. My good old friend moved out of state and my other good old friend told me to gtfo of her life because I am "cold and shallow." That has been years ago now but it still stings. My aunt passed away a few months ago and it is a devastating loss. Emotionally I am starving. My feelings are so raw and intense and it doesn't help that I am tired right now. I feel pathetic and vulnerable and foolish for telling anyone that. What I am I doing here? No doubt I will become embarrassed later that I posted this, but I am trying to cope with my feelings.

Limerence, yes. I believe he is one of yours which is why I am here. The reason I believe he is INFJ is because his Fe shines like a beacon yet he seems to be brooding much of the time. If it was a mere infatuation I would be content to carry on the relationship mostly within the confines of my imagination, but after months of observation I have come to believe he is a rare jewel and I long for a real connection with him. To say hello once in awhile, and there being no more interaction than that, was making me unhappy. He resonates with me emotionally and intellectually, and I would do almost anything I could to please him. I have tried to express that to him a couple of times but it somehow falls flat. Of course I want him in the romantic sense, but if it that can never be then I just want to be his friend. That is, if only I can get through this infatuation. It isn't all bad I guess; I'm normally not very motivated to make friends even though I really want and need them. I have allowed my feelings for him to be my guide, knowing it would be hard but hoping it will pay off in a good friendship in the end.

He has a girlfriend whom he loves but the relationship is unsatisfactory because he finds her controlling and clingy. I have no intention of violating his boundaries, albeit, maybe I already have in some way. I don't know. I have not exactly communicated my intentions. He has been receptive to my pursuing him, and we have gotten together for lunch a couple of times. He tells me that he enjoys our time together. In fact, it was he who first showed an interest by the way he looked at me, but that has been several months or maybe almost a year ago. Yeah, my response was a bit delayed.

If you've ever been seriously infatuated with someone you know how you can't help but to analyze every little interaction. Ugh. Here is the thing that is making me madly confused: why would he ask me for my number, not give me his, tell me he is going to call then not do it? He says he fell asleep. Okay. Then he was stressed at work and broke plans we had (tentatively) made. He told me he was sorry for not giving me the attention I wanted but that he needed to rest. Okay. But then why would he tell me again that he is going to call me and then not do it, after I let him know it bothered me the first time? That confuses me. I don't have confidence in my ability to read people or respond appropriately. I am starting to wonder if I am being some creepy lady who keeps bothering him. If I tell someone I am going to call, then I intend to do it. Is this his way of telling me to back off? Or to exercise control over the situation since I have been somewhat aggressive (for an INTP) in seeking him out? Is he just stressed? Ambivalent? Or just flaky? All of the above? Please get in his mind for me, thanks.

I understand that you guys need to withdraw. All of that magic you perform wears you out and I know my friend has a shitty job that drains him badly. But I am not good at this social dance. Never in my life have I been so determined to pursue a man and the circumstances are unusual and ethically questionable at that. A married woman has no business pursuing a taken man anyway but I WANT THAT JEWEL and I will chew on glass to get it. If I were thinking clearly, the obvious answer would be to just chill and stop thinking too much, but with all my feelings in the way it's hard to do. How should I proceed? What is the proper way to create a bond, express my feelings (or not) and how to establish clear boundaries?

Just the act of writing this all out to a (hopefully receptive) audience has done a lot to cool my feelings and help me think a little more rationally, but I would still appreciate any input. Give me comfort or flame me as appropriate; just tell me what I need to know. And thank you for reading my long and pathetic essay on my feelings. :tongue:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,553 Posts
You need to ask him to be truthful to you. Unless of course, you've done so already

It sounds like he's not being quite honest with you... Or himself. Now, bear in mind that we INFJ have a deeply cherished and secret little place in our mind, and we're very choosy as to who gets to see it

If you persist without knowing if he sees you on the same level as you see him, it could come off as intimidating and overbearing. Contrary to this however, he might also find it deeply flattering (I know I would if someone tried this hard for me > <)

To sum it up:

If he has feelings for you, then he'll probably keep you at a distance

If he feels nothing for you, you won't see him at all ;)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,849 Posts
Sounds like he hasn't been honest with you. I doubt he just fell asleep. He probably spent the evening thinking, and decided against it. Both of you are officially in relationships after all.

Usually if I promise to do something, don't do it, then lie about it or try to cover it up in some way, this means that the action causes conflict in me or is very unpleasant to me somehow. But because of Fe I don't want to disappoint other people, especially people who I care about. Extent than an INFJ is prone to try to please other varies. I only do this for people whom I care about, and in other cases I have no problem saying no. But if you say that he has very well developed Fe then he might just have problems saying no, and it would not really be a function of how much he cares for you at all but that he feels that he befriended you first so he is responsible for getting your hopes up and thus rejecting you would be highly distasteful for him also. It seems he has problems breaking off relationships (his present one for example).

I say that you two should have an honest talk about your feelings. Just tell him that he has become very special to you, but stress the part where you don't feel right about it. I think this sort of moral concern should resonate with him and then he may open his thoughts to you on this matter. If he doesn't volunteer just ask him what he thinks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
964 Posts
Nitou,
I would normally have an established answer for this situation, off pat, and very moral and condescending it would normally be .. but,..in this case, although the reasons for your limmerance are obvious, (you outlined your emotional starvation and passing of your Aunt) nonetheless, something compells me to thorw away my usual advice on this and just go with what I'm feeling for you.
It could be that everything up to this point has been preparing you for a major change in your life.
Your INFJ freind may be a catalyst (we often are) for bigger life changes for you.
I am not even going to touch the morality of two people in relationships paying with this sort of fire, all I feel, is that this is going to happen anyway, right?
If it does happen, it will cjange things, and you sound like you need to change things in your life.
Being stuck in a marriage for money reasons is awful, and yes, your freinds girlfreind will be hurt,.. but this is circle of peoples lives, and although im not encouraging you to make your feelings known, I think its inevitable that they will come to the fore.
He feels the temptation, he's human, his abandoned fone call was his attempt at being the 'good' guy and doing the right thing.
He's teetering on the brink.
Only he can decide which way he goes from now on.
I think, this matter will resolve its self one way or the other in time, as you do spend some little time with him, it will grow,.. develop, organically, until you crash into eac other.
will it be permanent? possibly...INFJ tend to stick around, and such heady intensity is a draw for an INFJ.
You two may have to be brave, as we all know that good things dont come without a struggle.
If this does progress, make sure you get to know from him what he would do if you two were to start seeing each other,.. he may try and get away with a short affair, however,.. it seems like he could be the type to be around for a while.
I say, let it unfold,... he knows you like him, you know he likes you, its unspoken right now,..but I suspect it wont be unspoken for long.
My love and hugs to you Nitou, be brave, and if this doesnt turn out the way you expected, just be glad that you know that when you are eventually free, you have the capacity to feel deeply, Hugs,
G. x
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,245 Posts
This is so tough, Nitou. I am sorry for your situation. I am trying to connect with INFJ males also - it seems that nothing I say will have them 'let me into' their world. It takes time, and patience I see. Although some of them seem aloof and quiet, there is a strong passion undercurrent that is just so appealing within them, I cannot resist being drawn to it.

I have been having some trouble with this. Some men cannot be direct, so instead they say they'll do something (like your phone call), don't do it, and except the other person to 'take the hint'. This has been done twice to you, so don't ask again, I would move on. Generally when men take on that pattern, they want you to 'get it' without 'hurting your feelings' (In Female Language - this also a means, get out of a situation without having to do any work or deal with emotions, or without having to say 'no') but the problem with this is this type of behavior is that it hurts feelings. I have a tender spot for INFJs so I will let this occur, a little without thought of it. But women have this problem with all kinds of men.

I would leave it alone, you are being the aggressor, although they may not seem assertive, INFJ males are very 'selective' in who they want, and chase after, so it could be you are seeing a mixed message with his Fe thingy, but to your friend, he may be trying to pass you on a message indirectly, ineffectively. Also the fact that he is taken, makes him even less likely to be chasing after you.

That is a beautiful description of your INFJ friend! I have told an INFJ male that once - that he is so sparkly, like a Jewel, and I just WANT him so badly! My whole situation is pathetic, because I don't even know him personally yet, and it is THAT bad. Yet, the Hot/Cold mood thing is exhausting, and likely not worth it. Other females have approached me with the similar experience they have had with INFJ males. I am determined like hell, but even I can't sustain the Cold climate, and detachment. I again make allowances, because I know I have similar qualities sometimes, I have to be fair.

And I lose respect for guys that can't just say, they are 'not interested' clearly (this is a century's old battle), and have a lady continue to desire communication with them, and them being unresponsive. The best thing to do is just state your feelings and walk. (OR don't say anything at all, I mean you are a married woman, I would just walk). Even if you were to become friends - it is not likely because there may be too much attraction there, I wouldn't say that is a wise move; feelings will brew, if given the climate to do so.

You've answered you own question there - unless you are leaving your relationship, and free, why pursue a taken man. Unless is is your intent to have an affair. Same goes for him, you both have serious thinking to do. You are not pathetic - thanks for writing, it gives us all something to think about.

I think about this too - I mean married man or taken man? That is like a spree for a detached woman like myself - but that is me running away from my commitment issues, and hurting other women, thus I would never do such a thing, emotionally or physically. But to each their own, I don't frown upon affairs, I can't understand what it is to be trapped in an unhappy marriage. So I will not assume or push any ethical views on you.

Regardless of all of this writing, quite simply the action says it all - He told you to call twice, and didn't pick up your call twice. Don't mention it again, and don't ask to call him again, or say anything about it. Move on, or try to rectify your marriage. You've got more important things to deal with. Emotional men can be another stressor. Maybe you'll be fortunate to get some INFJ girl friends in your life and experience their love! I would never say anything negative prematurely - but if you discontinue your marriage, maybe you can look at this situation in a different light.

But QUELL that desire, and get rid of it ASAP. I'm dealing with a raging forest fire of passion for someone that I'll never have, and it is best to put it out. It is just an energy consumer, taking you down, and consuming your energy, that could be put to better use, or spent taking care of you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,303 Posts
Why are you looking in the INFJ section? This isn't a personality thing, this is a "man" thing.

He likes that you like him. It strokes his ego, makes him feel good.
He's a big boy, if his big, mean, controlling girlfriend was so terrible to him HE'D WALK AWAY!

Is this the kind of guy you want anyway?? I mean he's seeing you behind her back, yet he doesn't have the guts or the integrity to break up with his girlfriend? Is that how the kind of man you want behaves toward the girlfriend he LOVES? If he does this to her, what is he going to do to you? *face palm* Why are women so f*&*&^^ stupid????????

If he wanted you, he would chase you. If he wanted to call you, he would. If he wanted to pick up the phone when you called -- he would have. He's playing a game. He's tempting fate. If he does screw around with you, it'll be short term; a giving in to lust and temptation after which he'll regret.

Anyway, do you really want to be that woman? Do you really want to be the home wrecker?

What the fuck ever happened to women standing together??

(btw, apologies for the harshness -- I blame INFP values).:tongue:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,207 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks everyone for your helpful responses. I have been reflecting on what you have said.

Zomboy,
I believe "ambivalence" is a key word here. To me it seems intrusive to ask someone outright what they are feeling. But maybe if I lay it out there first... but I have hesitated to do so for a couple of reasons. One, I have made my feelings for him obvious, albeit, have not expressed as fully as I have here. I should not assume that my intentions are obvious. Two, I am afraid that discussion of my feelings could open a can of worms. That is, I am already threading a fine line, and I fear where that could go. I will consider it, or maybe I will back off for a time. I shall see.

Vel,
I don't have reason to believe he lied outright, though it is possible. I can see the conflict. The behavior seemed so bizarre to me because he is the one who asked me for my number. Nevertheless, I can see that he would have difficulty doing anything directly that would hurt someone's feelings. It makes me wonder about the nature of Fe; is it dishonest? It seems to be an action-oriented form of feeling that almost acts independently of one's own inner feelings.

Goodewitch,
You have told me what I want to read, what I like to think I "know" already. I was feeling very intensely yesterday when I wrote that. Catalyst, perhaps. This writing is as much about myself and an exercise in self-awareness as it is about him. While he gave me the googly eyes all that time ago, I had a nocturnal dream of him and a feeling. That's it, just a feeling in my chest, uh, like love. At the time, I kind of blew it off. Then he became a star that I couldn't touch, then it turned into restlessness, then a goal... This quote from Da Vinci comes to mind: "Once you have flown,you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward; for there you have been, and there you long to return."

I am self-absorbed aren't I? I try to keep my selfish motives in check. I don't want to cause him trouble; I don't know how I could pursue him without it causing him trouble, if indeed he has feelings for me. I considered that. Unfortunately, it is a thought that I cannot process very well.

This is some awkward self-disclosure, erm. It's pushing my comfort zone. I have always felt emotions very intensely and they overwhelm my reason. When I was younger I experienced it as an epic battle of head vs. heart, but with self-awareness and maturity I am getting better at getting them to work in tandem. Thank you for understanding.

Female INFJ,
You could be right, that I ought to just forget him. I realize that Fe can be mistaken for interest, but I don't believe I am mistaken. If I am, then my illusions will shatter, I will feel like a big heartbroken ass (wouldn't be the first time), and then life will go on.

Amanda32,
I pass judgments swiftly and harshly too, sometimes more than I should. And you are mistaken. I brought this to the INFJ forum because this man exhibits behavior traits that are consistent with the INFJ profile and people of similar type tend to think similarly. Since I can't very well pin him down and dissect him directly, nor are my own intuitions fully adequate to grapple with this, I came here.

Sometimes people make obligations that are not readily broken, and they struggle with their hearts. I am being purposely vague. The characterizations you make pain me with their libelous inaccuracy and lack of insight. I often feel stupid when dealing with my feelings, but I am not that naive nor is he the jerk that you portray. Screw around? Lust? Is that what you think this is about? Pfft. I do not wish to break up a good relationship, nor could I. And I am not a member of the sorority of "women."
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,849 Posts
One, I have made my feelings for him obvious, albeit, have not expressed as fully as I have here. I should not assume that my intentions are obvious. Two, I am afraid that discussion of my feelings could open a can of worms. That is, I am already threading a fine line, and I fear where that could go. I will consider it, or maybe I will back off for a time. I shall see.
Well right now it sounds like the situation has stalled, not going forward or backward even though you say you have made your feelings obvious. I am kind of wondering where exactly you want to proceed with this? Do you have a plan except for a vague "I don't want to lose him"?

Come to think of it I've been in a similar situation - I was in a relationship that was dwindling out and an ENTP guy who was unhappily married has made his feelings very apparent. The whole thing was so distasteful for me that after being overcome with emotion in moment of weakness and doing a short push-pull dance, I just started to ignore and avoid him once rational thought checked in. Not that I lost feelings for him, but because it induced conflict in me I just made myself disbelieve them, rationally reject my own feelings on grounds that I was in relationship at the time, find other interpretations to his actions, and then construct a reality where those other interpretation were true and live in it. My intuition also projected situation into future and saw no possible positive outcome to this. Plus it did not make me think highly of him that he was lurking behind his wife's back doing this, but in your situation it was him who made the first move. He is probably grappling with himself about it.

Thing with intuition is that it is very comfortable in obscure environment where multiple meanings and interpretations are possible, where multiple possibilities and opportunities are open in the future. It is like the environment of anti-clarity. It doesn't seek what it true, it seeks everything that is possible. In moments of conflict and severe stress an INFJ can choose to believe in some possibilities that alleviate internal conflict, and disregard others that intensify it. Ultimately I think if you want this situation to move anywhere, you will need to provide him with some clarity and a plan with a positive outcome for the future, a plan that also will not offend his sense of what is moral behavior, as this later part has a good chance of making him turn away from you if it is violated.

... It makes me wonder about the nature of Fe; is it dishonest? It seems to be an action-oriented form of feeling that almost acts independently of one's own inner feelings.
Fe is objective feeling. It makes your mind place value of feelings of other people and avoid situations where feelings of others get hurt. This can lead to attempts to conform, to please others, do anything for others to not get upset even when it is unpleasant and feels bad to the Fe-bearer. Fe by itself is not dishonest, but it brings about internal conflict when one cannot please everyone. Say you are trying to not upset person A and person B, but truth is that keeping them both happy is not possible. How an INFJ resolves such a conflict depends on particular INFJ and lying is one way to resolve it or to postpone the unpleasant resolution, to drag it out further and further into the future away from yourself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,303 Posts
Amanda32,
I pass judgments swiftly and harshly too, sometimes more than I should. And you are mistaken. I brought this to the INFJ forum because this man exhibits behavior traits that are consistent with the INFJ profile and people of similar type tend to think similarly. Since I can't very well pin him down and dissect him directly, nor are my own intuitions fully adequate to grapple with this, I came here.

Sometimes people make obligations that are not readily broken, and they struggle with their hearts. I am being purposely vague. The characterizations you make pain me with their libelous inaccuracy and lack of insight. I often feel stupid when dealing with my feelings, but I am not that naive nor is he the jerk that you portray. Screw around? Lust? Is that what you think this is about? Pfft. I do not wish to break up a good relationship, nor could I. And I am not a member of the sorority of "women."
Nitou:

I think you're making a mistake that will hurt everyone involved.
If it's real, he'll break up with his girlfriend before he does anything with you.
If you were smart -- you wouldn't mess around with him until/unless he does.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
442 Posts
So many things to say in this thread...

This is so tough, Nitou. I am sorry for your situation. I am trying to connect with INFJ males also - it seems that nothing I say will have them 'let me into' their world. It takes time, and patience I see. Although some of them seem aloof and quiet, there is a strong passion undercurrent that is just so appealing within them, I cannot resist being drawn to it.
Nothing you "say" will let you in. "Being yourself" and the emotional space that results will. Aren't you somewhat the same? :happy:

He likes that you like him. It strokes his ego, makes him feel good.
He's a big boy, if his big, mean, controlling girlfriend was so terrible to him HE'D WALK AWAY!
You keep indicating that you'd love an INFJ of your own, but I don't think you really get us yet. To salute your unbridled use of Fi, let me counter with some Fe and a rare disclosure from an admittedly closed-off INFJ. :wink:

I have been in the exact same situation that Nitou describes a couple times in my life. A situation like that is truly no-win, because no matter what you're going to hurt someone. The first couple times, it was the pursuer who got hurt, because even though the relationship I had was cold and dead, it was less pain to others if I stayed where I was. It took me a lot more time and a midlife crisis to realize that being authentic to my own values was to do what you said, regardless of the pain to others. This is a paradox for many INFJs - we are so in touch with other people's emotions that we can easily deny the fact that hurting someone else (and badly, at that) can lead to a positive outcome, especially when we are younger.

While the above experience is my own, in conversations with other INFJs, this seems to be a recurring theme with most of them.

To Nitou - I can give you no advice except for what I've said above. And I salute your ability to be as open and honest as you can about this, because it's the fuel we need to process things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
Well, I'm going to be the black sheep and present another viewpoint.

My first question would have to be, what happened to your marriage? Why is it cold and dead? And what makes you think that a new relationship wouldn't also become cold and dead with time? You see, unless we're talking about an abusive or extremely unhealthy situation, relationships do not go cold unless you let them by neglecting to feed them.

How does your husband feel about you? Will he be hurt if you have an affair?

Most of the time, even in situations that seem hopeless, love can be restored to marriage. It just takes a tremendous amount of work.

I'm not trying to be callous, I've been just where you are twice. It was gut wrenching to say the least. As INFJ, I am a romantic and I do want perfect love. But I've had to recognize that other things really are more important: loyalty, hard work, being true to a promise I made. I made a decision to love and be loyal to this one person, I promised. Yes, it has been hard. I was young when I married and didn't make the wisest choice. I've fallen in love (or limerance) with other people who would have been much more compatible, but the bottom line is that I promised. I entered into a sacred covenant with another person. And he loves me. So I cut off ties with those other people. I've made huge efforts to reinstate the love in my marriage, and it has helped.

The important thing to realize is that love does not just die for no reason. It's like a fire that needs fuel. If you stop giving it fuel, it will go out. This is why marriages die. It's why so many people end up divorcing multiple times.

My sister did what you are wanting to do now. Her marriage had died long before and she was starving for love. But she now deeply regrets it. She is now divorced and single, and wishes very much that she had done more to save her marriage.

I completely sympathize with you. I know what being in love with an unavailable person feels like. It's confusing and awful and wonderful all at the same time, and I'm glad I'm not in your shoes right now!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Promethea and Nitou

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,207 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Vel,
I don't see him every day or even every week so it could stall for little while. My "plan" was to initiate a platonic relationship and endure or ignore any feelings that would disturb the peace. But Ti is functionally blind to emotion and fails to predict its power to warp my reality and affect my behavior. Your comments are very helpful. I don't want to do the push-pull dance. This is my "new" plan in a nutshell: Tell him I think he's great and I want to be his friend, and I am sorry for letting my feelings cloud my better judgement. Tell him I am responsible for my own feelings. Ask for feedback. Then step back and act like a friend rather than an obsessed love-sick monkey.

Soul Searcher,
I don't think you're being callous; I think your concerns are very relevant. In short, my marriage is cold and dead because I withdrew to protect myself. That's my point of view, anyway. He doesn't seem to care. We can be affectionate once in awhile. He is not a bad person but we both have a temperament that can alternate between cold and explosive, even cruel, and we bring that out in each other. Attempts to communicate often turn into circles of argument, Ne vs. Si, with neither side willing or able to see the other point of view. Actually, I can see his point of view and think it's unbearably narrow-minded, while he thinks I have "no standards" and will not even try to see my point of view. And, he has very low F. To fix it, I don't know if there is a remedy. To me it seems like too much work for too little return. I have years of resentment for his acting mean, selfish and controlling; he resents me for not being the Stepford wife he wants. You see, we did not know each other very well when we got married.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,303 Posts
I have been in the exact same situation that Nitou describes a couple times in my life. A situation like that is truly no-win, because no matter what you're going to hurt someone. The first couple times, it was the pursuer who got hurt, because even though the relationship I had was cold and dead, it was less pain to others if I stayed where I was. It took me a lot more time and a midlife crisis to realize that being authentic to my own values was to do what you said, regardless of the pain to others. This is a paradox for many INFJs - we are so in touch with other people's emotions that we can easily deny the fact that hurting someone else (and badly, at that) can lead to a positive outcome, especially when we are younger.

While the above experience is my own, in conversations with other INFJs, this seems to be a recurring theme with most of them..
So you're saying that it's because he is so in touch with his girlfriends emotions that he is denying the fact that breaking up with her and hurting her this way, will lead to a positive outcome?

It could be that he is a self-sacrificing knight morally blinded, crippled or confused by his super empathic emotions --- or...

Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade.

Which is more likely?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,207 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Amanda said:
So you're saying that it's because he is so in touch with his girlfriends emotions that he is denying the fact that breaking up with her and hurting her this way, will lead to a positive outcome?

It could be that he is a self-sacrificing knight morally blinded, crippled or confused by his super empathic emotions --- or...

Sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade.

Which is more likely?
Again? *facepalm*
Amanda, your attitude is perverse. Not only have you (again) smeared the character of someone you know nothing about, but it appears you are disparaging INFJ's in general. :angry:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,303 Posts
Again? *facepalm*
Amanda, your attitude is perverse. Not only have you (again) smeared the character of someone you know nothing about, but it appears you are disparaging INFJ's in general. :angry:
It seems I'm upsetting you. Not my intent.

I love INFJ's in general.
It just seems plain rationalization to me.

But, if you don't agree, disregard.
Good luck with your friend.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
Soul Searcher,
I don't think you're being callous; I think your concerns are very relevant. In short, my marriage is cold and dead because I withdrew to protect myself. That's my point of view, anyway. He doesn't seem to care. We can be affectionate once in awhile. He is not a bad person but we both have a temperament that can alternate between cold and explosive, even cruel, and we bring that out in each other. Attempts to communicate often turn into circles of argument, Ne vs. Si, with neither side willing or able to see the other point of view. Actually, I can see his point of view and think it's unbearably narrow-minded, while he thinks I have "no standards" and will not even try to see my point of view. And, he has very low F. To fix it, I don't know if there is a remedy. To me it seems like too much work for too little return. I have years of resentment for his acting mean, selfish and controlling; he resents me for not being the Stepford wife he wants. You see, we did not know each other very well when we got married.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whew, glad you didn't take offense at my bluntness. No more advice, just empathy. I know it can feel like a living death to be stuck in a cold marriage. I hope things work out for the best for you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nitou

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,037 Posts
Hun, like soulsearcher, I am going to touch the fact that you are married, whether it is happy or not. There is a strong commitment there. Yes, limerance has a commitment too with his girlfriend, but they are not married. I understand your confusion with his actions. I think what you are asking of us INFJs is to let you get into our minds~~how they work. What I write next is based on the scenario you have written. I know what I would think to myself: "What is going on? Is this person telling me the truth about staying in their marriage for financial reasons? Is this person interested in me for me? Does this person only want me so that they have a way out of their situation? If this is so, then I will be alone. What if I am not the one? I still have a chance to work out my problems in the relationship that I am already in. Will I be able to handle all the hurt that will spread, if we were to get together on any level? I don't think I can be just friends with this person. I would want more. I don't like confrontations at all; they go against my grain." Now, these questions/thoughts are my own. I can not honestly say that limerance would think the way I do or not. Maybe, something like it. maybe not. I don't have the answers for him. Maybe, he would have responded (show more attention) to you in a more positive way, if there wasn't so much turmoil going on in both your lives. It is my understanding introverts do not like being overwhelmed/confrontations/turmoil.

In all honesty, I believe you need to resolve the issue that you are unhappily married first, whether said marriage is worked out or absolved. I believe this will relieve a lot of your emotional state. I in no way judge you on this, I have been there done that...the marriage thing. In the past, someone told me the following words, in the way of advice: " You have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps." I did not like them one bit when I first heard them. I realized, after the fact, that I actually leaned on them. They kept popping up in mind giving me strength somehow. I truly believe it was because someone cared enough to give me simple words & not a lecture.

I don't think that you are weak for your post. I believe you are strong for reaching out and asking for help. I know you will find your peace, because you are strong. :proud:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nitou

·
Registered
Joined
·
930 Posts
Nitou- Thank you for sharing your story. It was one that I can relate to on several levels. A while back I was in a similar predicament and after much soul searching a a few cosmic two by fours, the fog has parted and I am slowly started to feel the air clearing and like my old self is coming back.

In my case, the guy wasn't married (though I believe he might be bi-sexual and in a long term relationship with another man), but I was. My infatuation with him totally messed with my head, as I normally don't even look at other men in that sense. Even when I was single and dating, I was only able to date one person at a time. Well for whatever reason (something I am still trying to sort through and make sense of) this guy came into my life and pretty much shook my foundation, to the core. It's like he brought out some parts of me that had been hidden away, and my feelings were very intense. I think the attraction was mutual, at least that's what I was told by some mutual friends, and I kept getting all of these mixed signals from him that made me think this was so.

It didn't help that like you, I was also going through some life events that were causing emotional turmoil in me and I had been hurt by my husband very deeply in the past. I thought that I had gotten past it and moved forward, but this situation made me start to wonder. However, my feelings were over-riding any rational thought or morals, and it was starting to scare me. I went over & over in my head, what needs are not getting met that I might be looking to this guy to meet, and maybe were being met on some levels? Admiration? Affection? Attention? (check, check, check) Also, I noticed that I was having a hard time being my 'normal self' around him, and I knew that if I ever crossed a line and did anything inappropriate I would never be able to live with myself, yet I was still feeling that pull. It was so frustating. A friend of mine didn't get it, he was like, "aren't crushes supposed to be fun?" But it wasn't fun for me, and for whatever reason I couldn't interact with him without the turmoil starting all over again.

Fast forward several months...I ended up walking away. I knew that was the only way I was going to get a grip on myself and my feelings. What I have noticed about those intense feelings is they come like waves, and if I just hold out long enough they will slowly start to subside and that's when you can really start to process what they were/are all about. But whenever I was around him, it started all over again. So I cut myself off. It wasn't easy, but the space gave me enough distance to get a grip on myself before I did something I was going to regret and that would have ramifications that would go way beyond my own world and needs. Initially I did it begrudgingly and some inner part of me was kicking and screaming because part of me wanted to stay in that place, but now I am glad that I did remove myself, and really freakin' grateful that my instinct for self-preservation came in and got me out of the hole I was in.

Not a fun pickle to be in, and I wish you the best and that you get what you need there. Good luck.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
12,037 Posts
PS I want to add: Because the questions/thoughts that I put in my original post is most definitly from a female perpective, a male definitly thinks differently. With this said, I can say that the norm for an INFJ of both genders are a give their all kind of person in the matters of "in love (or possibility there of)" relationships.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
604 Posts
The Key word here is Limerence

It is like alternating between dancing on the clouds and chewing on glass. Damn it. What I am I doing here? No doubt I will become embarrassed later that I posted this, but I am trying to cope with my feelings.....Limerence, yes. I believe he is one of yours which is why I am here.
Nitou this is one of those rare cases where I might actually know what the hell I'm talking about. The key word here is Limerence. It is very distinct from infatuation or lust and if people are not familiar with it they may not understand your problem. Also try not to be embarassed about sharing your feelings here. INTP get kidded a lot about being cold but the fact is everybody has feeling. For you it is in the 4th position which means as a function it potentially could play havoc with you the same way Se can play havoc with an INFJ like me. It's biology - it's cognition - it's nothing to be embarassed about.

Caveat: Much of what follows is my experience - your mileage may vary.

I think the kind of limerence you are experiencing is common among NF & NT because of our ability to visualize scenarios and people - tying in ideation, imagination and then adding to that our basic human needs for attachment. You wind up with this longing that goes beyond infatuation. It is tied to this ONE particular person. And there is only room for one limerent object at a time in this obsessive manner.

Forgive yourself Right Now. Forgive yourself now because this is not a defect of your character. Becoming limerent towards someone is not the result of mere lust. It is the result of a glitch in our minds that occurs because of the ideations of N. It is my belief that the limerent object often bears some resemblemce to an archetypal figure for us. There is a particular Human Pattern you may notice if you ever experience limerence more than a couple of times in your life. I can explain this in more detail if you wish.

*** Important ***

Understanding the archetypal nature of the Limerent object is how I came to be able to let go of the obsession. I understood that I was having a reaction to a powerful and primal psychological signal from the way this person's "pattern" reminded me of this misty archetype.

Now this brings us to your next quote.

If it was a mere infatuation I would be content to carry on the relationship mostly within the confines of my imagination,
That is limerence incarnate. To qualify as limerence one of the factors has to be that the fantasy be grounded in reality. You can be infatuated with somebody but not have limerent feelings for this kind of real life union. And lust - well plain old lust you can experience without any kind of psychological attachment at all. So yes you are talking about limerence.

The thing to acknowledge here is that you really don't want to just carry this on in your imagination. If it was just that you could let it go. The Limerent object is calling to you at a primal level. Your psyche has this picture it has put together from little bits in your past.

Examples
His eyes might look like the eyes of that one little boy you knew in kindergarten.
His overall face looks like the face of a favorite teacher from childhood.
His voice sounds like the voice of your father when he was younger.
His favorite activities are like those of that cousin you admired long ago.
His hair color reminds you of your mother.
He smells like your father's family (Hat tip to Lor who pointed out the importance of smell in one of his posts)

These aren't specific - rather I mean them to show how a person might wind up having several of these factors in their presentment to us that map to an archetype in our head. This person will draw us in like photons streaking towards the inescapable gravity of a black hole. And the metaphor is doubly magic because of the futility of the attraction.

Limerence cannot be sated, it can only be ended. It's like the event horizon of a black hole for light. The light which reaches the event horizon can't go any further if it is blocked by the conglomeration of other light - and yet it cannot directly retreat because it is also captured by inescapable gravity.

This is what Limerence feels like is it not? So why can't you have reciprocation? Why can't you simply join with the limerent object in a moment of ecstasy and apotheosis?

Well, uhm, because people are human beings not archetypes. You can't join with a vision. Oh sure you can have sex with them and it might be glorious because all this visionary crap you had in your head will be swimming around all the long while that you are working up a sweat.

But when it is over you will realize that this person is Not a vision. They are not the archetype incarnate. They are just a person who had that puzzling mix of qualities that fit the pattern in your head.

I long for a real connection with him. To say hello once in awhile, and there being no more interaction than that, was making me unhappy.
Limerence is often characterized by cycles of longing. Proximity to the limerent object is not required for its sustenance nor is it sufficient to make the limerent feeling go away. The only thing that will "end" limerence is resolution. Resolution can come in many forms. I've described one.

He resonates with me emotionally and intellectually, and I would do almost anything I could to please him.
Limerence is quixotic in this regard because it serves itself in a way instead of serving you. Doing things for him feeds the longing of Limerence but it doesn't bring relief because Limerence is always hungry for more.

I have tried to express that to him a couple of times but it somehow falls flat.
Naturally. He doesn't know he's an archetype.

Of course I want him in the romantic sense, but if it that can never be then I just want to be his friend.
This is sometimes possible, but the Limerence has to be stopped first.

If you've ever been seriously infatuated with someone you know how you can't help but to analyze every little interaction.
Limerence seeks after absolution in a moment of apotheosis of either agony or ecstasy. It is fed by the constant analysis of seemingly meaningful details. This is an illusion. A torturous one because limerence traffics in fantasies that are "realistic" and could come true. A purely "fantastic" fantasy like riding with him on a dragon's back is not limerent. But he can say something completely meaningless like "I would like a hamburger" and the Limerent mind will make it into some Earth-shattering statement of significance through the means of hyperactive intuition.

Ugh. Here is the thing that is making me madly confused: why would he ask me for my number, not give me his, tell me he is going to call then not do it? He says he fell asleep.
You know the answer to this. It is because he isn't walking around in daily life aware that he is somebody's archetype. He isn't playing games. He simply was being a normal dude and asking for a girl's number in a flippant manner. Guys do crap like that. I don't want to make you feel bad but if you want to end limerence you have to detach the obsession from the limerent object.

Just the act of writing this all out to a (hopefully receptive) audience has done a lot to cool my feelings and help me think a little more rationally, but I would still appreciate any input. Give me comfort or flame me as appropriate; just tell me what I need to know. And thank you for reading my long and pathetic essay on my feelings. :tongue:
Talkin about the issue is one kind of activity that can help to bring about a resolution. You are doing the right thing by asking for help. Limerence is an unstable mental state. (It doesn't mean You are unstable - the state of mind of limerence is unstable) It is not healthy because it does not represent actual "Love". It is an obsessive behavior triggered in the psyche by recognition of an archetype. So talking about it really will help you think about it more rationally.

It is very difficult to let go of Limerance because the draw we feel towards this misty archetype is amazingly powerful. We really don't want to let go of it either. It is somewhat addictive. Understand this - you might actually be able to love someone for whom you are limerant but you won't know that to be true until you are in a non-limerant state.

Try writing it down. This man is a human being - not a god, not an angel, not an archetype. He's just a person. He eats sleeps breathes and farts just like the rest of us. Disgusting? Yeah I would never resort to potty humor unless it served a noble cause :)

It's possible from time to time you find yourself pining "If the time place and circumstances and this and that and yadda yadda..." No. None of that matters until you can settle it in your mind that he is a human being and not the living embodiment of an ideal. (ni archetype)

I hope this helps and please do not be embarassed. I have been caught up in this before and it is a terrible experience. People who don't know what limerence is might not understand the torture you are going through. Don't worry about that. The pain you are feeling is real, the emotion you are experiencing is natural given the circumstances, and the obsession is just a trick that happens because of the intersection of the deeper part of the psyche and plain ole biology.
 
1 - 20 of 46 Posts
Top