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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Usually i am always typed as a intp but i'm doubting it because i didn't like math in high school( i haven't been to college yet), but recently i've tooken a liken to this personality shit lol... and I just want a persons view on if i'm a intp because a test may to some level know variables, but not as many as a human being who applies him/herself.. I secretly just hate straight answers that wont let me explain myself, i cringe everytime i take a personality test and i cant add a .5 or something.



0. Is there anything that may affect the way you answer the questions? For example, a stressful time, mental illness, medications, special life circumstances? Other useful information includes sex, age, and current state of mind.

I'm 19 years old
Male

And i'd say my current state of mind is tryin to learn without action to be honest, but more of gatherin information mainly so i can decide on my career. I'm also looking into if i want to go to college, work coporate(i loathe this option honestly), or start my own bussiness, or become a entrepeneur

Yes there is many factors that may affect the way i answer the questions.

First possible factor that may greatly affect my answers and sense of well being, is that i was recently kicked out of my mothers home unexpectedly because i tried to play middle man by stoppin my mother and my sister from arguing. This may sound pretty far fetched but this is seriously what essentially got me kicked out of the house because my mother felt like i was condescending, and controlling by pointing out how emotional and out of control they were being which isn't healthy so they should instead talk things out..

Stemming from the first problem now i'm living in a situation i dont really agree with. One reason is my brother that i live with comes from a good place but, is very pushy in ways such as almost forcing me to chose a route which i'm not good with i like to brainstorm and then go further from that brainstorming and check on the ideas i brainstormed. For example if i went with my gut feelin which was to go into game design or becoming a video game programmer i would be very dissapointed because everything i thought about being in the game industry is opposite to what i found out so me looking into the ideas that i brainstorm is very important me but sadly it takes time...

second problem is my living conditions. Yes they're very livable in a above decent house inb4 first world problems, the house in itself is actually is actually better than my old house(except my room i sleep in a shitty guest/computer room)but the atmosphere is very annoying especially the fact that when i actually have stimulating conversations my brothers anoying room mates always chime in when they're dumb as bricks but i always feel too bad to fucken destroy their logic so i just smile until they shut the fuck up! add to this the fact that the few friends i did have i'm not really in touch with or haven't seen because i moved to a whole different city.

1. Click on this link: Flickr: Explore! Look at the random photo for about 30 seconds. Copy and paste it here, and write about your impression of it.





this is just what you call minimalist art. Most likely done by some art, or marketing major who wanted to seem deep! this is the type of photo or scenery you'd see in most ads because in a sense it agrees with everyone and disagrees with no one, in hine sight its perfect in a sence because its ment to appeal to as many people as possible while also not offending others at the same time. You can see the trend in the wide application of this picture when you notice how many random paint brushes is in the jar. Not one of those paint brushes is similar to another they're all different as if the photographer wanted to assimilate a acceptance of diversity.

2. You are with a group of people in a car, heading to a different town to see your favourite band/artist/musician. Suddenly, the car breaks down for an unknown reason in the middle of nowhere. What are your initial thoughts? What are your outward reactions?

What concert is held in the middle of nowhere lolz :confused:

My first thought as obvious as it may sound is to ask if the car ran out of gas, coolant etc this would help me to narrow down if we need to inspect the car or simply find the nearest gas station.. One of my next thoughts in this technology filled world is do i have my android or i phone charged so i can check my gpa system to know where we are for various reasons(nearest gas station, Auto zone, Car shop, Taxi place, and distance from concert if it was important enough to me. After i find out where we are i want to find out what knowledge does my friend/friends have on cars. If my friends or friend has enough knowledge to temp fix the problem of fix the problem good if not, I'll call someone whose judgement i trust in for advice on the possible situation on the car, which would most likely lead me to rig the car from instruction (not likely for me lol but maybe my friend"s" following on phone instruction, or get a tow to the nearest shop after goin to the concert lol..

3. You somehow make it to the concert. The driver wants to go to the afterparty that was announced (and assure you they won't drink so they can drive back later). How do you feel about this party? What do you do?


not to be mean or anything but i think this is a poorly asked question which most likely would get a pretty unsubstantial answer from most people because, it's too many loop holes and variables that can change my mind on the party..

one reason is i may feel the party if its not a shit ton of people there, But hate it and feel anxious when it's enough people to cause a fire hazard or be considered a indy concert. More factors that can change the whole equation for me and probably plenty other is if you said how would you feel sober in this enviroment. I dont often drink or smoke weed so dont think i'm advocating it but when i used to regularly go out with friends i smoke and drank all the time because it pretty fries your brain to the point that most rational worries go away. For example hot bisth walks up to me i'm sober i think why is she walkin to me or is she walkin up to me? if she is walkin up to me should i say somethin? if i do say something what should i say? If i get the balls to just say somethin and she responds positively i'm able to usually hold pretty good convo matterin the girls willingless to open up ( yeah double standard lol) which lets me pretty much just control the convo while still not havin to talk alot( i like talking alot just not party talk lol) im pretty happy if this happens and my energy bar isn't too spent, But if she responds negatively i notice how shallow of a environment i'm most likely in and my reluctants to be there raises. See how complicated that was? high me(high on marijuana) super fuckin chill so if i chick i comin my way or comin to talk to me i want even notice I'd be too busy laughin in my own head with and at friends and if she talks to me i either fuck it the convo by doing something high me would do but not give one fuck, or be so chill because of high me that she responds positively but i wont still wont care much because i'm high.. drunk me would obviously feel good in this area also until i start to come to my senses and notice how freely words are comin out of my mouth lol.

so basically at the party the sober me would just chill and talk to some people and his friends while still in his head somehow, and try to force myself out my comfort zone to hit on chicks etc... even though i'll most likely give myself a reason not to such as they're probably douchebag dudes, slut chicks, borin, bland etc..( i really dont think of people like this until i want to give myself a reason to approach them)

I'm startin to realize why most partiers are so mindless and drunks etc.. because when i think about my past experiences so called partyin I only ended the night good if i was drunk as shit, or high on weed

But i'd rather keep my brain than have to become a alcoholic just to party

4. On the drive back, your friends are talking. A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward reaction? What do you outwardly say?

i talk to him about his claim, and try to get to the bottom of the reasoning behind it. I would also ask what brought him to this claim, such as did you read it, formulate it yourself, or a mix of both. Another thing i do which makes some people made is find out if he checked both sides of the claim, because he if he didn't he's being a objective thinker which may be limiting his knowledge on the bigger picture. after that if he seems arrogant or condecending about his claim i'll usually debate it but not from a emotional place like anger etc.. but more so from a competition or debative place because he pretty much just challenged my wits.

5. What would you do if you actually saw/experienced something that clashes with your previous beliefs, experiences, and habits?

Usually i would weigh those old beliefs would the current beliefs subconsiously of course lol:laughing: i wont actually write them down. If i deem the new experience to make more sense then the old belief is thrown out like a bad habit. Even though this wouldn't shock me because i switch ideals and hobbies and habits pretty seasonally lolz.. Dont get this mistaken with immediate action though( i wish!) the contemplation will take a long time to finish if i decide to keep worrying about it. For example the past week or two i have been tryin to find what career i'd like to persue and i had decided to become a video game designer. But i stumbled upon a website with a very helpful insider who actually one on one emailed me helpin me understand the biz etc.. and the current politics of the video game industry etc.. and once i formed a better more thorough opinion based on facts, trends such as the obvious pattern i was noticing in the video game industries going forward, i easily threw out my old belief. Sadly i still cant think of a career that i overall want to persue and this personality typology isn't helping lol, i got knocked off track of a career search a few days ago when i lost interest in that and got caught in the mystery of personality types lol. Luckily i'm startin to get bored of this because i'm startin to have less faith in a system being so accurate as to know the right questions etc.. to type someone just based off of info with no interaction involed.

Another problem i'm starting to get with personality is i'm seeing too many websites and people try to use it like a horoscope of some type trying to predict peoples behavior, even physical feat. by their type which just makes no fuckin sense! just take one peak into the entp photo thread and see how many people think being entp makes them automatically hot, and make funny faces??(WHAT?)

6. What are some of your most important values? How did you come about determining them? How can they change?

some of my important values in life is family, happiness, and succeeding by balancing a career i love to live, with my hobbies and free time, and a few people including a girl to share it with.
I haven't thought of how my goals can change

7. a) What about your personality most distinguishes you from everyone else? b) If you could change one thing about you personality, what would it be? Why?

one thjing about my personality that distinguishes me from every one else is my idk i think that question has given me a case of writers block seriosly lol, well now that i think of it one thing that distinguishes my personality from others is my abililty to make light of things. I can become detached from something quite easily now that i think of it.

One thing about my personality i would change though is my hesitancy to trust people, things, systems etc.. it makes alot of uncomplicated things in my life complicated.. I would like to change this because its making decisions such a going to college hard ones( i feel like education is a giant fail and college is a obvious scam that retards dont notice that they're going to college 2 to 5 years to most likely work at a entry level job they can learn in 5 months, its making decisions such as voting for president hard( i usually feel like why vote if both people are most likely lieing bastards in the pursuit of money..

Even though i was born this way it may have also heightened once i became a giant conspiracy theorist and looked into so many illegal things goverments do thats actually open source but people are too lazy to go look at it so the gov. goes scot free and lawsuit because they released the info, you just didn't look anywhere other than the news which is sponsored bydisney of all companys smh..:angry:

8. How do you treat hunches or gut feelings? In what situations are they most often triggered?

If i have a gut feeling i wont dismiss and i wont act upon it right. i usually try to think is it rational or irrational, why am i having it, do i know anything to back it, like a past experience, information i found out, or is it just a emotion. I'm not sure when they're triggered most!


9. a) What activities energize you most? b) What activities drain you most? Why?

What activities enegize me most is something i would consider a hefty question because i enjoy alot of different activities at alot of different times in my life.

One activity that energizes me the most is exercise. For some reason even though i love excercise the only draining aspect of working is thinking about when and if i should exercise, what day should i focus on legs,then arms, etc.. what food should i eat how much water lol, but when i get started i really cant stop and i feel like a whole new man.

Another activity i'm remembering i very much enjoy(i graduated about a year ago so i havent written in some time)
is creative writting. The more i write even on such a bland subject as my activities lol, the more excited and the more ideas flow into my head, i never thought of journalism until now. I feel like writing is one of the easiest ways to express yourself.

Another activities that greatly give me a boost is researching subjects that i'm interested in which usually includes some philosophy, history, extra terrestrial beings (aliens ufos etc..., unknowns( big foot etc..). Politics, corruption of politics, political conspiracies, people et.. but for some reason a majority of the time if im forced to research something im not interested in at the moment i dont get the same energy energy boost. I say that because in school i usually hated the research papers where we were not allowed to come up with the subject we wanted to research.

Last but not least something that heavily boosts me is healthy competition. Healthy competition to me is usually a nice debate with someone not a argument, or playing a video game vs someone, a board game mainly chess, or a sport usually basketball.

somethin i forgot to add wass small gatherings. i love to interact with people in small doses, which makes things pretty complicated because i want to hang and not hang at the same time lol, cause once i actually be around them for too long its annoying but away from them too long is also annoying. And i got this double standerd where i expect people to open up but i dont lol

Two things drain me the most..

one is Large gatherings when i realize i'm in one. the only reason i emphasize when i realize is because it's been afew times where i'm at concerts or basketball games but i am so pre occupied that i dont even notice until the end when were all leaving. i pretty much associate large parties and large gatherings in the same boat.

The second thing that spends me the most is my emotions when they finally show their ugly little heads. I'm usually not emotional but when i am i tend to be very violent or sad which people always say i seem like the polar opposite when i am lol its always funny the first time someone see's me angry its usually a shocker. I noticed when i get angry like this my full day is pretty much fucked because its hard for me to leave that crazy emotional state usually accompanied by huffing and puffing, ballin of fists, and usually tears.. by the time i've finally got back to my normal self i'm wakin up the next day lol i tell you its not fixing i day in which i get angry, i see anger and sadness as useless as seperate entities.




10. What do you repress about your outward behavior or internal thought process when around others? Why?

I repress most of my views on how bad i think the worlds, people, systems, and beliefs are because most people would just deem me or the ideals i have garbage without digging deeper, or be too intimidated and shallow to understand or even try and understand such concepts. i repress most of my subjective thoughts because too many people view them as siding with the enemy when that isn't even close to what it is. I repress most of my judgements because i dont want to start unneccesary trouble, which would possibly end badly. I repress my thoughts on Religious institutions because i believe in god but i dont believe in the church or even the bible persay due to greedy people corrupting something so innocent, to do such wrong( rape kids, Make thousand of un taxed dollars from hopefuls more in need of it, but have such faith that they donate to the church anyway while the pastor sleeps with the women and buys a new car with the donations aka tides. Its obvious reasons why i wouldn't express that last sentiment lol i would offend people, because people dont like to use their brains or know the truth they'd rather live a blissful lie, if only i was so simple sigh :sad:
 

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Liking math isn't necessarily a prerequisite for being an INTP. I'm shiitake at math, personally, and every INTP is different. I'm definitely getting that vibe from you from your answers.

Overwhelmingly Ti dom from questions 0, 2, 3 (questioning logic of question), 4, 8
Ne aux: Question 5, 7, 9
Fe inferior: question 9

You are probably overdeveloped in TiNe, though, and currently reacting to your immediate circumstances (as seen from your answer to no. 0). Develop your inferior Fe, my friend!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
How do i develop my feelings? I'm not being sarcastic either...
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Liking math isn't necessarily a prerequisite for being an INTP. I'm shiitake at math, personally, and every INTP is different. I'm definitely getting that vibe from you from your answers.

Overwhelmingly Ti dom from questions 0, 2, 3 (questioning logic of question), 4, 8
Ne aux: Question 5, 7, 9
Fe inferior: question 9

You are probably overdeveloped in TiNe, though, and currently reacting to your immediate circumstances (as seen from your answer to no. 0). Develop your inferior Fe, my friend!
How do i develop my fe? This is not a sarcastic question either, i just cant imagine a way to develop my feelings! Do you mean that i should express my feeling more, and talk to people about them?
 

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How do i develop my fe? This is not a sarcastic question either, i just cant imagine a way to develop my feelings! Do you mean that i should express my feeling more, and talk to people about them?
I haven't really read much of this to be honest, but as an INTP, then Fe is your Achilles heel.
If you want it to be stronger, then you need to let go of your defenses.
Don't fear following the crowd, I know that quite a few INTPs justify themselves by calling others' sheep and saying that they are above that.
Those kinds of attitudes will sooner or later implode on yourself.
Let go and sometimes just don't try to be right, tell them your opinion and if they don't want to listen, let them do so.
People have a right to make their own mistakes.

Also, realize that you might sometimes come across as rude/mean to others at times and learn how to "fix" that.

I talked to a female INTP on MSN who would just keep debating EVERYTHING she could think of and after a while I was so drained that I informed her that she could be mean at times. She blocked me and never spoke to me again.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I haven't really read much of this to be honest, but as an INTP, then Fe is your Achilles heel.
If you want it to be stronger, then you need to let go of your defenses.
Don't fear following the crowd, I know that quite a few INTPs justify themselves by calling others' sheep and saying that they are above that.
Those kinds of attitudes will sooner or later implode on yourself.
Let go and sometimes just don't try to be right, tell them your opinion and if they don't want to listen, let them do so.
People have a right to make their own mistakes.

Also, realize that you might sometimes come across as rude/mean to others at times and learn how to "fix" that.

I talked to a female INTP on MSN who would just keep debating EVERYTHING she could think of and after a while I was so drained that I informed her that she could be mean at times. She blocked me and never spoke to me again.
its funny that you would say this because i do need to work on trying to follow the crowd, letting go of my defenses, and trying to be right. Me and my brother was just discussing this because i was telling him how much i would hate to conform and be forced to go to college and learn stuff i dont want, and have to go work a corporate job etc... I definately need to learn to stop debating, but thanks for the reccomdations i'll start to actively try and change some of these habits

But i still want to find another way or ways to be successful i'm trying to become a entrepreneur to avoid jumping through those hoops that people have to..
 

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I think INTP is a pretty good bet for you. Also, I would totally go along with that journalism idea you just had--it seems right for you, especially since you strike me as the kind of guy who couldn't stand a constant routine. You have strong secondary Ne, which means that you won't easily fall into a dom-tert loop and that you can interact with people well, but if I were you I'd get out of that environment ASAP. It's really not healthy for you.

Oh--and if you do become a journalist... no offense meant, but there's a book called Painless Grammar that would really help you out. It seems like you'd probably have a lot of natural talent for the job, but you would need to write so that you make sense. Painless Grammar is inexpensive, straightforward, and not terribly long. It's the book my homeschooling mom used, and will really up your street cred with anyone offering you a writing job.

You are probably overdeveloped in TiNe, though, and currently reacting to your immediate circumstances (as seen from your answer to no. 0). Develop your inferior Fe, my friend!
Actually, if an INTP tries to develop Fe, it really only leads to frustration. This poor guy's problems have little to do with his internal dynamic and a whole lot to do with his environment. Strong Ne is good for dealing with inferior Fe--they're both Extroverted functions, and Ne can almost take the place of Fe. Fe, since it's the opposite of Ti, the INTP dominant, will never really mix with Ti. But Ne can satisfy Fe's needs by allowing the INTP to work with people better.

This is from a site I regularly lurked--it's a wonderful article for explaining the dynamics of dom-tert loops. I believe it was actually written by an INTP... also, there's an example of how INTP dom-tert loops look. I'm pretty sure this guy isn't in one.

Tertiary Temptation/Dom-Tert Loops
The temptation, when we feel pressure from our Inferior Function, to explain our problems to ourselves in terms of an attitude opposite to our Secondary Function. This supports the self-understanding of our Dominant Function in Extraverted or Introverted terms, whichever we are most accustomed to. This cognitive move doesn't lead us to address the real problems, which would require a more genuine change in perspective; it does, however, restore an inner sense of harmony.
For an exploration of why this is, see Tertiary Defense.
How it works
For introverts
When introverts run into a situation that their Dominant Function can't handle, they need to adapt by negotiating, going along with the limitations of low-bandwidth social interaction, or otherwise doing something that does not involve total control or understanding of the situation. The Tertiary Function provides justification for maintaining an Introverted approach directly opposite to the worldly expansiveness that the person is ready for.
Tertiary Si (INxP): "I can't possibly go along with this, I don't have any reliable concepts or map to anchor myself with: it's all arbitrary and untrustworthy and meaningless. I'd be diving in without any orientation; I'd be tripped up or harmed from any random direction, and my efforts wouldn't be cumulative. I just won't budge. I'll build myself some barricades and wait for the storm to blow over." The Secondary Function (Ne) would say: "Look around, shake up the pot, see what new arises, and deal with it imaginatively; there must be better alternatives available than being stuck here." (My secondary Ne says something more in the lines of "Pay attention to your surroundings and do the thing that will have the most interesting results. Don't be dumb just because you don't have any experience.")
Tertiary Ni (ISxP): "I can't possibly go along with this, 'cuz it's all a lie. It's all a set-up by the Man. I'd just be serving his interests and not my own. I'm not gonna be suckered by all this self-serving bull. No way, man, I gotta go my own way." Or "Why should I imitate the cool people? Despite their shiny clothes and social connections, they are still as vulnerable as anyone else." The Secondary Function (Se) would say: "This thing's bigger than you. Better just go with the flow, do what you can, trust your instincts to deal with what's right here and now."
(Note: I've found that the above Ni description doesn't sit well with ISPs, since it comes off as too adolescent. Here's my attempt at re-writing this:)
Tertiary Ni (ISxP): "I can't possibly go along with this, because it holds no meaning; it's brutal and senseless, the result of mindless animals serving their base instincts. There are so many ways to look at this, so many ways to alter its meaning - I can't risk subjecting myself to the elements so openly. I'd rather conceive my own reality, on my own terms." The Secondary Function (Se) would say: "This thing's bigger than you. Better just go with the flow, do what you can, trust your instincts to deal with what's right here and now." -- VagrantFarce
Tertiary Ti (IxFJ): "I can't possibly go along with this, because it makes no sense. It's filled with internal contradictions. It's crude and not true to the real principles of how this works. It's trying to shove an inappropriately a priori conceptual structure onto the reality. I will have to go by feel, and where it leads I can't know until I get there. I've got to trust this groove regardless of people's arbitrary expectations." The Secondary Function (Fe) would say: "You've reached the limits of what you can do alone. You can make others feel important by telling them your needs and asking for their help, and yielding some genuine control to them. See who you can find common cause with."
Tertiary Fi (IxTJ): "I can't possibly go along with this, because it would mar my soul. It's not 'me'. I am a good person, and in order to maintain my integrity, I need to steer clear of this. This is the responsibility of those other people: it emerges from their souls, not mine, so it's their problem." The Secondary Function (Te) would say: "Do something. Take responsibility even if no one gave it to you, and go after some tangible gain right now, within the limits of the situation and your current understanding. That will improve your position, after which you can re-assess and plot a new course."
For extraverts
For extraverts, the Tertiary Temptation arises when Orienting by socially defined expectations is failing them. To find their way, they need an independent integrity or awareness, which cannot be developed by understanding oneself solely in terms of how people respond to you. The Tertiary Function provides a way of Orienting in an Extraverted way--a way of Orienting directly opposite to the Introverted discovery that the person's current situation is naturally leading to.
Tertiary Se (ENxJ): "I'll physically intimidate him. I'll brandish a little power and he'll get back in line. Beneath all our refinement, people are just animals, and let me tell you, this animal will not be denied. I'll go with my gut instinct here. You can't know everything in advance, you have to trust your gut in each moment. Good thing my gut is trustworthy. A person with lesser character wouldn't be able to trust his luck the way I can." The Secondary Function (Ni) would say: "What is really dangerous here and what's just a paper tiger? What are some options you haven't considered yet only because the current way appears--falsely--to be necessarily so?"
Tertiary Ne (ESxJ): "Ok, then, I'll bluff. We'll see how he responds to that. I don't know where this is leading, but at least it's leading somewhere new. This takes courage. Most people wouldn't have the courage to reach for the unknown at a time like this, but I can, because I can trust my principles to work in any new situation." The Secondary Function (Si) would say: "What are the facts here, really? Set the decision-making criteria aside and look at the facts freely, without without regard to any particular purpose or how the facts appear to others."
Tertiary Te (ExFP): "Unfair!! I have to stick to my guns, I will not be bullied or cheated. Any number of authorities agree with me. All my friends agree with me. Everyone can see that my response is directly mandated by the situation: anything else would be irresponsible. These facts absolutely settle the matter, and there is no point in looking at it any further." The Secondary Function (Fi) would say: "Fair or not, reasonable or not, recognized by anyone or not, what would truly accomplish some good here?"
Tertiary Fe (ExTP): "I'll lay a guilt trip on this guy, tell him all I've done for him and suggest that the next time he's in a tough spot, he might need my help. Well, hmm, ok, I'll be all friendly. I'll smile, tell him I like him, what a great guy he is. Well, hmm, that's not working, either. Ok, I'll make him look bad in the eyes of his friends." The Secondary Function (Ti) would say: "What is the truth? Not what people would agree is true, not an angle on the truth for making it palatable to someone, but the whole, honest truth?"
Example: The Shy INTP
Here is one way the Tertiary Temptation might affect INTPs.
Due to having Ti as his dominant function, the INTP tends to live introspectively, engaged in introverted activities that allow him to ponder the causal order of the universe. However, at some point in his life, his inferior Fe will cause him to desire to interact with others and change his standing with them. For example, he might get tired of being seen as a "nerd" or a "geek." Or he may want people to acknowledge his intelligence and listen to all his interesting ideas. He will be frustrated that people seem to assign status based on Fe and Se values such as popularity and "coolness," because these appear illogical and irrelevant from the standpoint of Ti. However, his inferior Fe is too weak to engage in the social games that people play, so it cannot fulfill its goals under its own steam.
Dominant Ti alone cannot solve the INTP's social difficulties; in fact, it leads the INTP to turn up his nose at the seemingly idiotic social world. He will claim that he doesn't know how to socialize ("knowing how" is usually a tipoff of Ti). Tertiary Si will affirm this attitude, by convincing the INTP that trying to socialize would surely end in disaster, because he doesn't have any kind of roadmap to navigate the arbitrary social world with. Or maybe his Ti will lead him to take a highly judgmental attitude that people just don't work the way they should. From the standpoint of the disgruntled INTP, people seem weak, irrational, and emotional, with no stomach for the "truth". He will tell you all the ways in which the current social system is dysfunctional, and how should it be resigned to fit some better underlying principles (see Saints-and-Politicians Exegesis for reasons why introverts often take attitudes like this). In this case, his Si will tempt him into only associating with people he feels safe with, and who won't challenge his overly introverted attitude. He will think "most people have absolutely no clue, so I need to find the few people who do and stick with them." The INTP's inferior Fe might falsely believe that only associating with like-minded people is the solution to his social difficulties, so he may embrace the labels of "nerd" or "geek" (or even "INTP") and act out those roles.
In short, his Ti and Si keep him semiotically disoriented and unable to relate to the extraverted social world.
Without Ne, the INTP will believe that he will be totally lost (Si) in the social world, because he doesn't understand how it works (Ti). Even when he tries to socialize in this mindset, he will feel he never has anything to say. This feeling of helplessness and "analysis paralysis" is due to his semiotic disorientation. When he does say something, he will be careful not to rock the boat (Si), because he feels he doesn't know how to socialize (Ti), and wants to hide this fact from others to avoid incurring a negative reputation (inferior Fe). For instance, he might take on the role of a "nice guy" to avoid the stigma of "nerd." Ironically, such fear to express his personality might make others believe he is boring and antisocial, and contribute to the negative reputation he developed in the first place! In the end, he will fall back on the areas of life where he "knows what he is doing." These areas will usually be his old introverted activities, so he is back to square one.
To summarize, Fe goals tend to get the INTP's Ti/Si into a semiotically disoriented muddle that leaves him no method of relating to the task at hand.
Enter: Extraverted Intuition...
Ne offers the INTP another perspective that can help with his social difficulties. It will encourage him to improvise, experiment, and attune himself to the world of possibilities in social interaction. He will be witty, unique, and say whatever nobody else thought of. Furthermore, through his Ne creativity and experimentation, his Ti will be able to able to figure out the underlying principles behind socializing. During social interaction, the Ne can reign free, and the Ti can analyze everything afterwards when it won't interfere. Thus, the Ti is brought back on board and has a way of constructively relating to the task. When the Ti manifests itself to help an INTP figure out how people tick, it is helping him meet his Fe goals. Fundamentally, Ne frames the social world as a place of exciting new possibilities just waiting to be understood, providing the Ti with a way of semiotically orienting itself to those goals.
Contrast the hyper-introverted attitudes of Ti + Si with the more extraverted attitudes of Ti + Ne. "I need to stay in control of everything to be sure it comes out right" vs. "I'll take my chances in the wider world and deal with whatever comes up":
• Ti + Si (+ inferior Fe): "People's customs about political correctness are so arbitrary, I have no hope of understanding them: every guess about how I should behave is just a shot in the dark... It's best to just play it safe with people, because if I mess up, they will just think I'm a nerd with no social skills."
• Ti + Ne: "Maybe I don't understand customs and etiquette yet. Maybe I will never understand them. I don't need to understand them, because I will respond dynamically to any situation that unfolds before me. The boring smile-and-say-customary-things approach doesn't work for me, but I can try something outrageous that people have never seen before, and see what that opens up. Maybe it will bring me to the attention of people who can appreciate what I've got to offer, maybe it will get me a black eye, maybe something I can't even anticipate. Only one way to find out!"
• Ti + Si: "Most people have no clue how the universe works, so I need to stick with the few who do. I would just get bogged down explaining basic concepts in some moronic set of terms to people who will just misunderstand everything and foul it up anyway. ."
• Ti + Ne: "If I limit my social circle to a few fellow misanthropes, I will never go anywhere in the world. When in public or with a stranger, I can try putting some small idea on the table--just a tiny piece of the whole picture, just enough to excite people's imagination. It'll start something. People will have no choice but to deal with it. They'll want to deal with it because it relates to their existing interests. I'll be fairly sure of that because I'll sniff out what those interests are. People will start having fun with the idea in their own way, going beyond what I can imagine."
Thus, Ne allows the INTP to place his stakes in the extraverted world. See Place-Your-Stakes Exegesis.
Ne, as a way to expand outward into the world rather than as a way to gather fuel for more Ti analysis, leads you to "plant seeds" of potential: to add something new to what's going on that opens up the potential for something not entirely known to happen--but something where there are real stakes. It leads you to choose your seeds to fit the existing social arena, and to collect tangible winnings when a seed bears fruit.
INFPs??
With this analysis in mind, it is easy to see how the tertiary temptation affects INFPs also (this might happen when the Te pressures the INFP to stop dreaming and get some results).
• Fi + Si: "I must proceed cautiously into the unknown, or I will just mess up and feel like crap!"
• Fi + Ne: "I will just improvise until I find a way to connect to this person. If we don't have anything to offer one another, I'll just move on and play with someone else."
• Fi + Si (+ inferior Te): "If I fail, that'll only prove that I'm not practical, I don't know what I'm talking about, and I can't deliver on what I promise."
• Fi + Ne: "If I fail, I'll learn something: it'll give me fuel to be creative and think of something new, that probably only I could think of. There's nothing like a difficulty with real stakes involved to spur my creativity!"
Can the Dominant and Inferior Functions live in harmony?
This leads to the interesting idea that perhaps the dominant function and the inferior function can be friends after all when the secondary function allows them to join hands. Most of the clashes between your dominant and inferior functions occur because the childish needs of the inferior function cause you to become semiotically disoriented. However, if you can use your secondary function to re-orient yourself, then maybe these clashes need not be so bad. See Developing a Function.
Example: INTJ
(Maybe the title should "The Distant and Pure INTJ).
I have been thinking about this for a bit and using the above pattern I created the following few bits. Please comment.
• Ni + Fi + (inferior Se): "People do things to satisfy their own bodily needs. They're loud and are trying to get the attention of other people. They're trying to be cool by wearing certain clothes and styling their hair, just like everybody else. I'm not cool, so I shouldn't try. They are mindless and do whatever they want. They don't care about important things. I can't take part in that, because it would be wrong. If they want to do that, they should. I don't, it wouldn't be me."
"You people are styling your hair, buying new clothes, drinking, eating and watching TV, indulging every whim and desire. Meanwhile there are important things going on in the world and I know about them. I however can't explain why it's important or what we need to change. So I will retreat and think about it some more until I can."
• Ni + Te: "Maybe I'm not cool or practical or down-to-earth in a physical way. Maybe I will know what that is. But I don't need to know, because I can set goals and achieve them. Find ways to relate my ideas to the real world by creating experiments and see how they work. I can commit to my ideas and make them real, so other people can see themselves that they're practical, that they work (or don't)."
"I can start with an idea and experiment to find out if it works, then commit to it and use it to improve the world. My commitment and real world examples will make people feel confident in my abilities and it help them see a better world. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. Failure is also a result."
• Ni + Fi + (inferior Se): "People just don't see what is really there. I could pressure them in believing this vision, but that wouldn't be me. It doesn't feel right. So I don't do it. I just sit there and think how things could be."
• Ni + Te: "If I stay in here and don't do things, I will never get to see my ideas working in the real world. I need to get out there and experiment, commit to my working ideas and rethink or scrap the ones that don't work. If I can make a small part of an idea work in the real world then I'm a little further than I was."
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I think INTP is a pretty good bet for you. Also, I would totally go along with that journalism idea you just had--it seems right for you, especially since you strike me as the kind of guy who couldn't stand a constant routine. You have strong secondary Ne, which means that you won't easily fall into a dom-tert loop and that you can interact with people well, but if I were you I'd get out of that environment ASAP. It's really not healthy for you.

Oh--and if you do become a journalist... no offense meant, but there's a book called Painless Grammar that would really help you out. It seems like you'd probably have a lot of natural talent for the job, but you would need to write so that you make sense. Painless Grammar is inexpensive, straightforward, and not terribly long. It's the book my homeschooling mom used, and will really up your street cred with anyone offering you a writing job.



Actually, if an INTP tries to develop Fe, it really only leads to frustration. This poor guy's problems have little to do with his internal dynamic and a whole lot to do with his environment. Strong Ne is good for dealing with inferior Fe--they're both Extroverted functions, and Ne can almost take the place of Fe. Fe, since it's the opposite of Ti, the INTP dominant, will never really mix with Ti. But Ne can satisfy Fe's needs by allowing the INTP to work with people better.

This is from a site I regularly lurked--it's a wonderful article for explaining the dynamics of dom-tert loops. I believe it was actually written by an INTP... also, there's an example of how INTP dom-tert loops look. I'm pretty sure this guy isn't in one.
You are very correct on your assumption of me not liking a constant routine, for some reason i hate even doing things i love routinely, or without change. I agree about me needing to get out of my enviroment A.S.A.P. Its kind of a experience i needed to push me out of just learning and playin though because its the main reason I've been trying so hard to find a career that i like but that also pays. Hopefully having a career (not a job) will give me a reason to be away shortly from my enviroment (not literally but in my head) enjoying my work while also making money to be able to permanently move away from it.

Dom-Tert loop?

No offense was taken about you giving me a helpful resource to better my grammar. I would love to be a journalist but i'm not really sure what route i should take to get that first job, and i need to better my grammar like you said. I also have alot of other careers i'm thinking about but they all have their pros and cons. I hate my Ne because it never stops throwing darts at the board :confused:

journalism

i need to better my grammar, Find a way to get in (finding that first job, or that first hit blog), expand my knowledge by experiencing more things directly.

Researcher/philosopher(get research grants,or do Documentaries etc..)
hard to find a job if even possible

photographer ( scenery,models,avant garde,maybe weddings etc.. Not family photos

need thousands of dollars to get a camera.. need thousands to get lights, need better editing skills because mine are mediocre currently, need to find a way to get in which is not a easy task unless you only do it as a hobby or side job.

Chef/ or own my own restaurant
start off by being a line cook, need to learn lots of recipes, need to learn new ways to cook, need to move to a area most likely with more job opportunities.

Teach english (preferable japan, or korea)
honestly just to give myself a reason to live there.

if i i listed everything i'd be on here all day so i wont lol, but i also want to be a
Entrepreneur(dont know what i would make, sell etc...lol,
Graphic designer/Web designer(but i hate comforming to a customer or bosses idea of a perfect design)
pharmaceutical researcher(dont want to go to college,lose thousands of fake dollars, be bored to death bY routine etc..
Screen writer(hard to get into because "everyone's a screen writer"
Animator
Visual effects
Sound & Special Effects Specialist
Story editor
Engineer(not good at math, and repetitive)
Musician
rapper
can i bug you with one last question? what careers sound good for someone who loves learning(history,facts,science, biology), researching, likes coming up with many solutions and then weighing them all together to find the right one etc..likes writing, likes competition, hates repition, likes independance, likes to debate and talk about relevant subjects, has many hobbies (sports,gaming,writing,reading,debating politics,systems,tv shows,mangas,instruments,card games and is still good at them, and money isn't everything but still want stability?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Actually, if an INTP tries to develop Fe, it really only leads to frustration. This poor guy's problems have little to do with his internal dynamic and a whole lot to do with his environment. Strong Ne is good for dealing with inferior Fe--they're both Extroverted functions, and Ne can almost take the place of Fe. Fe, since it's the opposite of Ti, the INTP dominant, will never really mix with Ti. But Ne can satisfy Fe's needs by allowing the INTP to work with people better.

This is from a site I regularly lurked--it's a wonderful article for explaining the dynamics of dom-tert loops. I believe it was actually written by an INTP... also, there's an example of how INTP dom-tert loops look. I'm pretty sure this guy isn't in one.
what website did you get the dom-tert loop article from it was very nice read? and introduced me to this Saints-and-Politicians Exegesis! thanks
 

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First, I don't like this thing about loops.
It's an attempt to make MBTI more like DSM and telling people that there's something wrong with them.
MBTI is about preferences and their order is static (not moving nor changing).

You can't come into a dom-ter loop, because your mind rejects such a thing.
That's why it's structured the way it is.
If you like Si more than Ne, then you might have another type than you think.

MBTI shows your personality as a whole and it doesn't home in on "mental disorders" and such things.
If you want to find disorders, then you should read DSM.

MBTI - This is how you think
DSM - This is what's wrong with you

You can't change how you think.
An unhealthy ESFP uses the same functions as a healthy one.
Trust me on that, because my mother is an ESFP and she was brought up in harsh conditions which made her into an incredibly unhealthy ESFP.
She still uses her functions in the same order as my ESFP sister who's healthy.

When it comes to developing your weaker functions, then it's about growing as a person and making your weaknesses smaller.
A poorly developed function can cause you "harm", even if it's a preferred function.
 

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First, I don't like this thing about loops.
It's an attempt to make MBTI more like DSM and telling people that there's something wrong with them.
MBTI is about preferences and their order is static (not moving nor changing).

You can't come into a dom-ter loop, because your mind rejects such a thing.
That's why it's structured the way it is.
If you like Si more than Ne, then you might have another type than you think.

MBTI shows your personality as a whole and it doesn't home in on "mental disorders" and such things.
If you want to find disorders, then you should read DSM.

MBTI - This is how you think
DSM - This is what's wrong with you

You can't change how you think.
An unhealthy ESFP uses the same functions as a healthy one.
Trust me on that, because my mother is an ESFP and she was brought up in harsh conditions which made her into an incredibly unhealthy ESFP.
She still uses her functions in the same order as my ESFP sister who's healthy.

When it comes to developing your weaker functions, then it's about growing as a person and making your weaknesses smaller.
A poorly developed function can cause you "harm", even if it's a preferred function.
I'm sorry, but I disagree with so much of that.

I don't like the idea of loops either, partly because I think that it's an attempt to turn MBTI into something that it's not. MBTI is very limited in its scope, and really shouldn't be used to address mental health problems.

However, I take issue with the rest of that post. You completely overlook the fact that MBTI is a corruption of Jung's original work, which is capable of explaining what's wrong with someone. He was the founder of analytical psychology, and his own experience with patients helped build the foundation of his type theory. In each and every type description, he explained what might happen when the type becomes unhealthy.

I posted short summaries of his descriptions here: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/111230-summary-jungs-type-descriptions.html

If you'd like to read more, here's Chapter 10 of Psychological Types: Psychological Types - Wikisocion
 

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I'm sorry, but I disagree with so much of that.

I don't like the idea of loops either, partly because I think that it's an attempt to turn MBTI into something that it's not. MBTI is very limited in its scope, and really shouldn't be used to address mental health problems.

However, I take issue with the rest of that post. You completely overlook the fact that MBTI is a corruption of Jung's original work, which is capable of explaining what's wrong with someone. He was the founder of analytical psychology, and his own experience with patients helped build the foundation of his type theory. In each and every type description, he explained what might happen when the type becomes unhealthy.

I posted short summaries of his descriptions here: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/111230-summary-jungs-type-descriptions.html

If you'd like to read more, here's Chapter 10 of Psychological Types: Psychological Types - Wikisocion
Well, we are talking about MBTI and not Jung's original work.
Katharine Briggs made adjustments to Jung's work and Isabel Myers changed it even more .
Myers-Briggs Type Indicator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've also read parts of Jung's work - "Psychological types"
I'm not questioning Jung, but rather MBTI and the attempt to make MBTI more like DSM.
Like you said, MBTI is very limited in its scope, thus it's unable to address the issues off mental health problems.

Jung however explained the functions in a more complex way to describe what different side effects could be of certain functions.

Here's a part he wrote about introverted intuition and extroverted sensation:
The introverted intuitive's chief repression falls upon the sensation of the object. His unconscious is characterized by this fact. For we find in his unconscious a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality may, therefore, best be described as an extraverted sensation-type of a rather low and primitive order. Impulsiveness and unrestraint are the characters of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence upon the sense impression. This latter quality is a compensation to the thin upper air of the conscious attitude, giving it a certain weight, so that complete 'sublimation' is prevented. But if, through a forced exaggeration of the conscious attitude, a complete subordination to the inner perception should develop, the unconscious becomes an opposition, giving rise to compulsive sensations whose excessive dependence upon the object is in frank conflict with the conscious attitude. The form of neurosis is a compulsion-neurosis, exhibiting symptoms that are partly hypochondriacal manifestations, partly hypersensibility of the sense organs and partly compulsive ties to definite persons or other objects.
 

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Well, we are talking about MBTI and not Jung's original work.
Katharine Briggs made adjustments to Jung's work and Isabel Myers changed it even more .
Myers-Briggs Type Indicator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
... Yes? I'm familiar with MBTI's history, which is partly why I said that it shouldn't be used to address mental health issues.

I've also read parts of Jung's work - "Psychological types"
I remember us recently discussing it (and disagreeing) in your type-me thread. I didn't intend to suggest that you hadn't read PT. After all, I had assumed that you were familiar with its existence when I said that you overlooked it.

I'm not questioning Jung, but rather MBTI and the attempt to make MBTI more like DSM.
Like you said, MBTI is very limited in its scope, thus it's unable to address the issues off mental health problems.
But you're on a forum dedicated to type theory, in the middle of a discussion about the use of cognitive functions. If a matter of mental health comes up, why would you recommend DSM rather than Jung? Even removing the immediate context, I would still recommend a theory-based tool rather than a list of mental disorders. I am far more interested in the "why" than the "what," and labels don't explain much.

Jung however explained the functions in a more complex way to describe what different side effects could be of certain functions.
Indeed, Jung's theory is complex. That's part of its beauty.
 

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@WritersBlock

Unfortunately, I don't have time right now for a full write-up. However, I really think that you're an ENTP (Ne-Ti).

Here's a summary of Jung's description for the Ne-dom type:

Extraverted intuition attempts to envisage all the possibilities that are inherent in an objective situation. Ordinary events are seen as providing a cipher or set of clues from which underlying processes and hidden potentialities can be determined. Yet once these possibilities are apprehended, objects and events lose their meaning and import. There is therefore a constant need for new situations and experiences to provide a fresh stimulus for the intuitive process.

The extraverted intuition type is an excellent diagnostician and exploiter of situations. Such people see exciting possibilities in every new venture and are excellent at perceiving latent abilities in other people. They get carried away with the enthusiasm of their vision and often inspire others with the courage of their conviction. As such, they do well in occupations where these qualities are at a premium - for example in initiating new projects, in business, politics or the stock market. They are, however, easily bored and stifled by unchanging conditions. As a result they often waste their life and talents jumping from one activity to another in the search for fresh possibilities, failing to stick at any one project long enough to bring it to fruition. Furthermore, in their commitment to their own vision, they often show little regard for the needs, views or convictions of others. When neurotic, repressed sensation may cause this type to become compulsively tied to people, objects or activities that stir in them primitive sensations such as pleasure, pain or fear. The consequence of this can be phobias, hypochondriacal beliefs and a range of other compulsions.
And, although I believe that Ne is your dominant function, I'll also include the Ti-dom description so you can decide for yourself.

Introverted thinking is contemplative, involving an inner play of ideas. It is thinking for its own sake and is always directed inward to subjective ideas and personal convictions rather than outward to practical outcomes. The main concern of such thinking is to elaborate as fully as possible all the ramifications and implications of a seminal idea. As a consequence, introverted thinking can be complex, turgid and overly scrupulous. To the extent that it withdraws from objective reality, it may also become totally abstract, symbolic or mystical.

The introverted thinking type tends to be impractical and indifferent to objective concerns. These persons usually avoid notice and may seem cold, arrogant and taciturn. Alternatively, the repressed feeling function may express itself in displays of childish naivety. Generally people of this type appear caught up in their own ideas which they aim to think through as fully and deeply as possible. If extreme or neurotic they can become rigid, withdrawn, surly or brusque. They may also confuse their subjectively apprehended truth with their own personality so that any criticism of their ideas is seen as a personal attack. This may lead to bitterness or to vicious counterattacks against their critics.
 

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@WritersBlock

Unfortunately, I don't have time right now for a full write-up. However, I really think that you're an ENTP (Ne-Ti).

Here's a summary of Jung's description for the Ne-dom type:



And, although I believe that Ne is your dominant function, I'll also include the Ti-dom description so you can decide for yourself.
I agree it is a possibility that i'm a entp but it's alot more things that ring true to me for intp. I actually wish some of the possitive traits of the entp rang true to me but i honestly don't think they apply to me. For example i think of entps as pragmatic and i'm more idealistic and logical. I also looked into me being a entp a while ago, when i took literally 10 mbti tests in one day and 8 times i got intp, 1 i got entp, and 1 i got infp(?). Lately i'm starting to think i have multiple personalities because i agree with so many different personalities to a certain extent.. What made you think entp?
 

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I agree it is a possibility that i'm a entp but it's alot more things that ring true to me for intp. I actually wish some of the possitive traits of the entp rang true to me but i honestly don't think they apply to me. For example i think of entps as pragmatic and i'm more idealistic and logical. I also looked into me being a entp a while ago, when i took literally 10 mbti tests in one day and 8 times i got intp, 1 i got entp, and 1 i got infp(?). Lately i'm starting to think i have multiple personalities because i agree with so many different personalities to a certain extent.. What made you think entp?
A. Do not read personality type descriptions if you want to find your type
B. They are made so that everyone can agree with them to a degree
C. It's all about the cognitive functions.
D. Tests don't always tell you anything.
 

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what website did you get the dom-tert loop article from it was very nice read? and introduced me to this Saints-and-Politicians Exegesis! thanks
Unfortunately, the site itself seems to have been down for a while. Perhaps the administrator will return to it and fix it.

But if you want all this information from the source, you should check out Lenore Thomson's book, Personality Type: An Owner's Manual. It's the book that provided the information that the people writing the site I got that from were using. Maybe you'll come to similar conclusions.

Are you guys sick of hearing me recommend that book yet? ;)
 
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