Firstly, you sound like a true ENFJ so well done for sticking out this far!

It sounds like she has got something going on, like some issue that she hasn't dealt with. Perhaps this is also something that she may even blame you for and has trouble getting over it.

I say this because everyone, even kids, have a reason for why they behave the way they do, and when they feel like they don't have control over the situation or know the right way out to deal with it, it can be awful for them. A lot of teenagers face similiar problems and some never fully grow out of it, because they feel responsible for things like 'mummy and daddy breaking up' or whatever.

I would try saying something like this:

'Listen, whatever is going on with you, whatever you are upset about, angry about. I can't help you with until you start to talk about it with me and ask me if I wouldn't mind helping. We both aren't stupid, you know that you are capable of better behaviour, I KNOW you are capable of better and i'm your mother, the last thing I want to do is fight with you all the time. I want to see you grow up and live a good life and do well. Until you choose to stop acting in this way, there isn't a lot I can do. My aim here is not to control you, or even tell you how to run your life, I just feel that you may hurt yourself if you choose to carry on in this way. The way I see it, all I can do is be here for you, your school work, and what you do with your life is down to you, it's your responsibility. I'm always going to be here for you, and I'm not going to be taken for a fool because I know you are better than this.'

Then say how anytime the school has a problem with here, or rings you and wants to talk to you about an issue, just take it and say 'oh did she?'. Then just leave it. I wouldn't bother fussing over her school problems anymore, I would just leave her to accept the consequences of them. Just be really quiet about everything, and only ask her stuff about her that really interests you, like you are in the car, and she has just been really bad at school or whatever, completely ignore it. Then while you are driving say, 'what matters to you most in life? I like .... ' or 'What subjects do you enjoy at school?'. Just be inquistive about her. A) you will learn somethings about your daughter, and b) it might encourage her to think like 'ok this life is down to me, mum won't hassle me anymore, and I want to help mum and not be acting immaturely all the time.

Also forget what your family says, they'll have to learn that your daughters behaviour does not reflect themselves. Ie if they are shouting at you for the way she is acting, tell them to stop and get off your case. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE WAY YOUR DAUGHTER ACTS! NEITHER ARE THEY! It sounds like they are insecure and uneccesarily taking the responsbility of her behaviour on their shoulders. For example, if she starts 'acting up' in public and they start complaining, that shows that they are allowing her to affect them, rather then ignoring it, or seeing it as her making a choice to act a certain way.

All this is about, as with many 'problems' with children, is them not having developed the sense that 'I am independent, secure, responsible for myself'. It's a lack of character and a lack of boundaries. So firstly start asserting some boundaries of your own.

Secondly, check out Stephen Covey's books. The seven habits of effective people, and some of the others. Stephen also has one aimed at families and developing leadership. All these help to make yourself better, if you change yourself, others will change. Once you have changed your perspective, others will change. Notice your language, you are asking essentially 'how can I change my daughters behaviour?' and the short hand answer is that YOU CAN'T. You can only be a role model for her to see and respect, and develop enough boundaries so she 'starts to bud off' as it were and become her own person. I have a feeling that as you develop and let go of controlling her so much and wasting energy on her, and just be there for her, about as half as you are now. She will start to feel release, and then do things to test whether you are going to control her anymore, and after that phase, if you pass successfully, she'll start to think 'hang on why isn't mum acting the same way anymore?'. Then some time after that, she will just turn around and say 'mum I want to talk'. Then it will just come.

Definitely check out Stephen Covey's material though, it will give you a lot more ideas and a better way of understanding what I just said. In it he goes into stories about how he helped his kids, by 'not helping' as it were.

Start with this:

The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: Amazon.co.uk: Stephen R. Covey: Books
https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits.php

then have a look at the family one:

The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Families: Amazon.co.uk: Stephen R. Covey: Books

Hell none of this may work, and you may disagree with me completely. Still what have you got to lose trying? If it works, it works, if not, then there is always another way. lol you could even just try hugging her whenever you don't understand her behaviour, that might shock her. lol. kill misery with love.:wink:

You sound like a really nice Mom.

As far as the cleaning goes: maybe write down what you expect and the times you expect it done by. For me, schedules help.

Honestly, with the rest Idk. I was never allowed to behave that way with my parents -- they would have kicked my ass...

Mabye you need to be more strict?

I never looked at it as trying change her but more identify, I guess that would be the best word for it, the areas she is weakest in and help her develop more of her strengths to even out the field. I know all types have strengthens and weakness, and depending how dominate one function is over the others can play a hand in our strength and weakness. Her Fi is mega strong which gives the impression to others that she is a spoiled selfish child who gets what she wants when the opposite of this is true and I know it. When she pulls a negative attention stunt like crying yesterday because she cant sleep over at a friends since her chores are not done I've told her if you feel you have to throw a fit then go right ahead but I have school work to finish so I can better myself. Then I walked away. Yeah I got the bad mum rant from her and it hurt but I just let it all roll off. When she was done all I asked was "better" she nodded yes so I told her to go find something to do, of course it was a chore.

We do have her chore list posted and we have it as a daily check list so she can see what she has to do or has left to do. We also have what we call the "Mullins Family Constitution" that lists the house hold rules and how we should treat each other. Each of the kids had a say in it along with the adults. We also have punishments listed for rule breaking. A few punishments the kids decided themselves that involves just them like if someone broke the other ones toy or scratched a cd and now it won't play the guilty party will receive the listed punishment. They all had to agree that it was fair before dad and I gave the seal of approval. The rest of the punishments dad and I did but we listened to their feedback as well, the scary thing is most of the time what they said it should be was worse then what we said. For instance if you lie about doing a chore lets say, you still have to do that chore and if its a job that gets split up between the 3 kids the guilty party has to do all of it for 2 weeks, they lose allowance, and what ever it was that was more important then the chore like friends or video games they lose the privilege for 2 weeks. If it was friends that were more important the guilty party has to tell their friends when they come over looking for them why they are grounded like I lied about my chores. The kids said that was good but they should have to do the chore for a whole year and lose allowance for 2 months oh and my youngest said they need to go to the police and tell them they lied and should spend time in jail :tongue:.

For some reason with all of that in place she acts like the rules don't apply to her. Anyways, I just want to guide her in the right direction to help her develop the areas she has trouble in as part of her personal growth. One of the other big things I know would help is getting her to set a goal and see it through; I know how ENFJ of me, but she has so many half finished projects that she is never able to see the final product that she set out to create. The other side of that is time management skills since she has zip and she needs a skill like that, they even stress it in school now. I know it will come in time (sorry for the pun lol) but is there a way she can "practice" it now since I think that would help to build her confidence up?

So sorry this is long again:blushed:

I bolded the parts that sounded like how i was and i'll adress them in order
1. i still dislike organization, my parents would laways try and make me clean up and ididn't like because i knew i make a mess again, and when i had my stuff all out in my"own special"way, so the issue was never resolved-i clean up because i was forced to
2. my family gave my unconditional love so i never worried about pleasing them, i percieved my friends though as not liking me unconditionally
3. i often said this and it was true-i'd have all the anwsers and i always had the anwsers during class discussion etc but i couldn't do so well on the actual work. I am diagnosed with ADHD and though i can't be certain she may have it and i recommend you get them tested for it.
4.my mom scolded me about my marks every year, and i would always just shrug it off. but really it hurt me deeply that she was measuring me only on my marks and eventually i jsut broke and cried during one of her lectures

now about the it alll as a whole, my mom is an INFJ so im lucky she understood my introverting more and my dad is also an introvert.with me there was no teaching my the typical work ethic, and what i accepted was my dad's view"you don't do work because you like it, theres just no getting around it"and i think that helped me out alot. While i hate to say it i wish my parents were more strict with me. it seemed like they wanted to do things on my own as though i should want to do them for my own sake, but really i functioned better when they told me what to do and didn't make it about me.
i really really wish you luck in this, they're lucky that they got someone kind hearted like you-alot of INFPs weren't so lucky. you can only do so much and don't blame yourself!

Seeking Sanity said:

I want to start this by saying that I'm here seeking help and advice. I have already beat myself up over this and I feel like a terrible mum all because I don't know what to do and I feel I just make things worse. Also this post may be long since I want to give you all as much information as I can.

My daughter is going to be 11, I always thought that she was an INFP and recently she took the 41q quiz and confirmed it. I think her percentages are I - 43%, N - 95%, F - 95%, and P - 95% just to give you all an idea. Her Fi is super dominate and here lies the issues.

All they way up to about age 4 1/2 she was mega organized everything had its own place and she herself could not stand to be dirty. In her "world" she was a princess and princesses never were dirty and never made a mess. I was reminded of this fact a lot by her in the early years. She also would seek out approval for her efforts and would offer someone who was hurting comfort.

Things started to change slowly after that. In the years that followed she started school and had a new little sister and brother, her step dad left us, I got remarried and my husband is taking the steps to adopt her. Through all the changes in her life she has showed little emotion although I know its there. I have spent one on one time with her and got her to open up on how she feels or she will have Opa time (grandpa) and she will talk to him.

The child that once loved to be clean was caught taking a mud bath in the back yard, the reason being its a SPA and Mud baths are good for you. She told me yesterday that organization is not in her vocabulary and her bedroom is a great example of that. She doesn't like to do her chores and it doesn't bother her that her brother and sister have had to do them for her. Her chores are very simple, make your bed, put away your laundry if you have any, sweep the floor, put away dishes, pick up your room so we don't kill ourselves if we have to walk in there and feed the dog when its your turn. She has also told me she is more worried about making her friends happy then her family. She will throw a hissy fit if she doesn't get her way for example yesterday she wanted to sleep over at a friends house. I told her it depends on if she got all her chores done yet she said no then started balling her eyes out screaming that its not fair and she never gets to do anything she wants to do, even though she slept over at her friends house 3 days ago. She ignores deadlines which has gotten her in major trouble at school. Her teacher told me of one instance of an in school project that she didn't complete and when he asked her why she couldn't finish she told him well I figured you would give me an extension on it since I had other things to do. Needless to say she failed and when I asked her about it she tells me" I didn't like it, I already know the stuff so why do I have to do it". Now I know she hates repetitive things but this was a power point presentation for a social studies unit she had to create and she loves power point. Anyways she had more incomplete assignments in the 4th quarter then in the 3rd. I would check her assignment sheet her teacher sent home to make sure it was all there and completed yet she would still manage to turn in incomplete work. She always has a reason why she cant do something or why its not her fault. Nothing seems to bother her punishment wise since she uses that as a reason to "live in her head" more.

I love my child but the extreme behavior has caused major issues for me. I have family yelling at me for the way she acts in public if she doesn't get her way. I had to convince the school to promote her to 5th grade and not hold her back a year again for doing the same thing as she did the first time around in 4th grade. I have taken her to a psychologist but that just frustrated the poor woman who ran the sessions since she knew Mac was not being honest and was trying to manipulate her. I have even failed a class now because she got mad when I told her no and she decided to run off which made me miss my final which is an automatic failure of a course. I could not ask her dad to go find her since he was at work and I had to drop the kids off at my parents on my way to school.

I want to help her but I can't seem to reach her. At this point I'm afraid she will seriously hurt herself or someone else because of the personal ideas and opinions she has along with the fact that she won't look outside those ideals she has set. I have told her I believe in an organized mess one in which she can work in that wont effect her health (i.e. rotten food and candy wrappers under the bed) I understand she has an issue with strict deadlines so the household chores can be done at any time during the day as long as she tries to get them done. I know it will be baby steps that need to be taken but so far nothing sinks in and I personally feel its because it goes against her ideals and it doesn't affect her in a profound way; if my thinking is wrong please tell me. Like I mentioned before her Fi is mega strong to the point that her Ne is being blocked out and not able to fully function and give her objectivity.

I did say it would be long and i'm sorry but I hope I gave you all enough info to help.
Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Does she ever have moments in between all this dysfunction where she seems to thrive? What does her thriving look like? What situations specifically triggers her to act out? When she is very upset, in her most volatile moments, what types of things does she express? When she is introverting, what types of activities does she take part in?

Well, one thing you could tell her is that if she doesn't do it -- then YOU have to do it.

She may think it just won't get done and no one has to do it. But if you pointed out that you'd have to do it, then it may stir up her empathic side.

being an infp my entire life, i can relate well to your child. it helps than infps have an ability to actually remember what it's like to be a kid, and we can still be childlike ourselves, whether in temperament or ideals. A few key points stand out in the post. One is the sense of abandonment. Her father leaving. Combined with the new Male figure, as well as the siblings. This has shaken her view of the world as it was just her, now she's nothing but a speck (in her mind). the messiness and all i think can be tied to her seeking for attention and approval, attention that is good or bad is still attention. Let her know specifically how much she means to you in great detail with an audience. have the other children and male figure there to see it, have them participate even. Once she feels that love she had again she should return to normal. As for what normal is for a 5 year old...hahahaha, yeah, no such thing.

Give only positive feedback, if she does something wrong or makes a mess, don't include her as being a part of it. It will only make it worse, permanently worse. Don't reward her for the good things she does, rather compliment on how well she is doing them and subtly suggest a better way to do it if she's doing it wrong. Asking is a 1000 times more effective than telling them. "What do you think about your room today?" rather than "Clean this mess up!"

" I didn't like it, I already know the stuff so why do I have to do it". that described me all throughout school, don't expect it to change. What she's trying to tell you is that she is tired of being held back and needs a challenge, push her education as far as you can until she's the one who says "enough, i don't get it". Encourage her to do better because she's already doing great. Pressuring her to do things she doesn't want to do or already gets but refuses to do more of, whether it's chores, schoolwork, or any other kind of work for reward based system (no child should ever have chores, just because you did doesn't mean you need to pass the suffering on to your children, that's not aimed at you, but parents in general) will backfire 100% of the time, they see through the nonsense of having to do it. INFP children can see and contemplate things at this age other people struggle with their entire lives. The pressure applied will result in a venting or backlash of a varying degree of behaviors, mine was being a liar, i lied about my test scores, homework, grades, everything relating to school, just so people would shut up about it. I wanted to be left alone yet know I was Ok to be me, then and only then could i come back to the world and participate. Still working on that today.

Work with her flow, don't try to push her in a direction she's not already going, encouragement, subtle recommendations, asking nicely if they "can" do something, not they "must" do it or else. When you ask if they can, they will, and they will show you how well they can do it, as if taking it as a challenge rather than an order.

Best of luck, whatever that is. Feel free to ask more questions about this, I'd like to help in the cultivation of a successful infp, it would be something remarkable at graduation with her 50 degrees

So, I grew up quite the little Fi monster, and I'm not very good at social conventions or boundaries, time management, or organization because in addition to being an INFP, I've also got ADHD and Asperger's. Basically, I stumble through life, but never give up on anything because I simply can't allow myself to. If I ever do poorly on an assignment, it's probably because I haven't done it because I didn't "believe in it". :crazy: If I break a rule, it's because I did not see the utilitarian purpose for the rule, or it was irrational, or something like that. If I throw a fit in public, it is because somebody has been very indecent/changed the day beyond recognition, into something I hadn't prepared for.

What I would do about your child's behavior is explain to her why it is morally good to complete her assignments and to maintain a certain composure in public. To the first, it is her responsibility and in not completing her assignment, she is causing harm to not just her own reputation as someone who is well-behaved and dependable, but also to her family's reputation as being decent, competent people, and potentially her teacher as well. To the second, she's again not just representing herself, but she's representing her family, her peers, and any other group she is a member of as well, and also when one acts that way, they make people uncomfortable or even seriously hurt people's feelings.

Frankly, I would consider having her evaluated for ADHD/Asperger's or possibly other behavioral/learning disorders.

You may also want to consider other options for education. In the public school system, my enthusiasm for learning was squashed by the stress of a way-too-large workload and so many pointless, repetitive, or remedial things. I did better when I homeschooled, with some overarching standards set but a lot of room to select my materials and learn mostly independently. I got to pursue my interests and passions, I had a lot more free time which allowed me to destress, I became much more pleasant to be around, especially towards my family, I was still very well equipped for college (graduated high school Valedictorian, entered college with scholarship & in an honors program). Just something to consider.

Also, I would keep trying with getting your daughter a therapist - it can sometimes take a while to find a good fit. Try to find someone who appeals to your daughter's NF nature - someone who is a bit less formal, more "funky".

Remember also that you put a lot of money into that school, so they should have to adapt to you, not the other way around. You may be able to work with the school on modifying their demands of your daughter, to something she and the school can both be satisfied with. My mother would often send me to schools with notes explaining that I did not have to participate in particular programs which she found pointless and taxing (like the Accelerated Reader program, which increased its demands every time I managed to meet its demands, which was every time). Generally speaking, the school does sort of need your money, so it will work with you.

i was like this to a lesser degree when i was that age.

you might be approaching the problem and your daughter in the wrong way. if you want her to do certain things you have to make sure that you're not forceful. convince her that it is in her own interest to do these things which you want her to do. but leave the decision up to her (or make it seem like that's the case).
it's all about motivation. for an infp to be motivated about something they must have a goal which they fully understand and desire. if they don't understand or desire it, they won't be motivated. forcing them to be motivated will only backfire.

as a last resort you could victimize yourself and try to spark some sympathy within her which might in turn motivate her.

and most importantly, always approach your daughter not as an authority figure but as a friend.

Alright, I'm a teenager and I've definitely stepped into the rebel area against my ESTJ mother.

A long, one on one discussion with her, when she seems to have time, will very likely help. Get to the root of the problem. I love ENFJ's very much, but I've found that when they are dead set on something, and I get drawn into it unwillingly, it has the potential to bug me. Willingness to do something is key.

My mom gave me the task of unloading the dishwasher every morning, and I've found that I've been doing it, because, basically, unloading the dishwasher means that I have dishes when I need them, and secondly that its really easy and quick to do.

A problem with my mother that I encounter often is that she loads me down with things all at once. For the life of me, I just wish she would give tasks to me one at a time, with mild breaks in between. Having a distraction (music, television, talking to a friend, etc) while doing a larger chore helps immensely. As far as chores are concerned, how about trying this for about a week: If she asks you if she can go to a friends house, and your reaction is "not until chores are done," Try asking her to do something very small, such as making her bed, before she can go. Then tell her that when she gets home you would like for her to do another chore or two. Make her last chore a "bonus," and give her some reward, such as baking cookies together, or some other activity that could intrigue her into doing the chore willingly.

As to grades, I don't quite know what to say, other then "I grew out of it, I'm sure she will." when grades started counting, it was, in fact, easy to up my brain to a higher performance level (study habits, homework, etc.) for high school. As to the power point presentation assignment in particular... I love powerpoint too, because it works well for creative expression. You could ask her if she felt bordered in by rules regarding exactly how the presentation should be done.

Good luck, and may my help be with you.

Personally, I have concerns about 10-year children taking on-line "quick and dirty" MBTI tests that are designed for adults. So what was your daughter's motivation for taking the 41g test? What did she hope to learn from it? What has she learned from it?

I also want to help by giving you my feedback on your post (see in-line below)

My daughter is going to be 11, I always thought that she was an INFP and recently she took the 41q quiz and confirmed it. I think her percentages are I - 43%, N - 95%, F - 95%, and P - 95% just to give you all an idea. Her Fi is super dominate and here lies the issues (????).

All they way up to about age 4 1/2 she was mega organized everything had its own place and she herself could not stand to be dirty. In her "world" she was a princess and princesses never were dirty and never made a mess. I was reminded of this fact a lot by her in the early years. She also would seek out approval for her efforts and would offer someone who was hurting comfort. The way you write this seems to imply your approval of her behavior during these early years. It strikes me that her development in this period was perhaps a little one-sided. Why no mess, dirt and aggression in her play?

Things started to change slowly after that. In the years that followed she started school and had a new little sister and brother, her step dad left us, I got remarried and my husband is taking the steps to adopt her. Through all the changes in her life she has showed little emotion although I know its there. I have spent one on one time with her and got her to open up on how she feels or she will have Opa time (grandpa) and she will talk to him. It's one way of coping. Does she have a healthy relationship with her step-dad?

The child that once loved to be clean was caught (you disapprove?) taking a mud bath in the back yard, the reason being its a SPA and Mud baths are good for you. I (admittedly INFP) would have been truly delighted with this!. I would have laughed out loud and helped her spread the mud and then wash it off. Later on, I would also have explained that special types of mud are even better for the skin and looked for a way of trying these out.

She told me yesterday that organization is not in her vocabulary (spontaneously? or in response to something you asked/said?) and her bedroom is a great example of that. She doesn't like to do her chores (with the exception of feeding the dog, this seems to me to be a normal, healthy response from a 10 year old - especially an INFP). and it doesn't bother her that her brother and sister have had to do them for her (why do the siblings do this?). Her chores are very simple, make your bed, put away your laundry if you have any, sweep the floor, put away dishes, pick up your room so we don't kill ourselves if we have to walk in there and feed the dog when its your turn. She has also told me she is more worried about making her friends happy then her family. She will throw a hissy fit if she doesn't get her way for example yesterday she wanted to sleep over at a friends house. I told her it depends on if she got all her chores done yet she said no then started balling her eyes out screaming that its not fair and she never gets to do anything she wants to do (brings back happy memories ...) , even though she slept over at her friends house 3 days ago. She ignores deadlines which has gotten her in major trouble at school. Her teacher told me of one instance of an in school project that she didn't complete and when he asked her why she couldn't finish she told him well I figured you would give me an extension on it since I had other things to do. Needless to say she failed and when I asked her about it she tells me" I didn't like it, I already know the stuff so why do I have to do it". You can't deny that there's some logic in this - it just doesn't include the unfortunate fact that kids have to go through meaningless hoops to get grades. I often agreed with my daughter (at 13) when she asserted that the school system was screwed up. But we also agreed that the only way to get to do what you want later on is to get through the screwed-up system as best you can. She did.

Now I know she hates repetitive things but this was a power point presentation for a social studies unit she had to create and she loves power point. Anyways she had more incomplete assignments in the 4th quarter then in the 3rd. I would check her assignment sheet her teacher sent home to make sure it was all there and completed yet she would still manage to turn in incomplete work. She always has a reason why she cant do something or why its not her fault. Could it be that she's smart and is bored or not challenged enough by the assignments? Or does she perhaps have difficulty with the work and is avoiding it? I'm no specialist but it seems to me that the factors affecting (in)completion of work could include:
- motivation: what makes the work/assignment interesting enough to do to the best of my ability and complete?
- organization: if I'm motivated, how do I make sure I get the work done on time? Where do I get the information, data from? When do I need it?
- distractions: how do I keep my focus (from time to time) on the work assignment when there's so much else going on?

Nothing seems to bother her punishment wise since she uses that as a reason to "live in her head" more. Punishment - or threat of punishment - is not a good motivator either for adults or for kids.

I love my child but the extreme behavior (I'm sure you many more examples but to be honest, what you describe doesn't sound that extreme to me. See below for more comment) has caused major issues for me. I have family yelling at me for the way she acts in public if she doesn't get her way. I had to convince the school to promote her to 5th grade and not hold her back a year again for doing the same thing as she did the first time around in 4th grade. I have taken her to a psychologist but that just frustrated the poor woman who ran the sessions since she knew Mac was not being honest and was trying to manipulate her. (This seems to confirm my gut feeling that she's smart). I have even failed a class now because she got mad when I told her no and she decided to run off which made me miss my final which is an automatic failure of a course. I could not ask her dad to go find her since he was at work and I had to drop the kids off at my parents on my way to school.

I want to help her but I can't seem to reach her. At this point I'm afraid she will seriously hurt herself or someone else (nothing you write suggests this to me) because of the personal ideas and opinions she has along with the fact that she won't look outside those ideals she has set. I think it's important to be precise about this. I don't think it's possible for her not to look outside those ideals. She's confronted daily with alternatives to her ideals by you, friends, schoolmates, teachers, TV, magazines, etc.). At this stage of her development (especially with an INFP type) she's not prepared to simply sell out on her ideals because someone else wants her to.

I have told her I believe in an organized mess one in which she can work in that wont effect her health (i.e. rotten food and candy wrappers under the bed) I understand she has an issue with strict deadlines so the household chores can be done at any time during the day as long as she tries to get them done. I know it will be baby steps that need to be taken but so far nothing sinks in and I personally feel its because it goes against her ideals and it doesn't affect her in a profound way; if my thinking is wrong please tell me. Like I mentioned before her Fi is mega strong to the point that her Ne is being blocked out and not able to fully function and give her objectivity.

Knowing zilch about you, your daughter or your family and school situation, here are a few thoughts for you to consider:
- Your daughter sounds to me like a healthy, strong-willed individual. Good for her!
- Your story sounds like a battle of wills in which you're frustrated because your daughter refuses to submit to yours or conform to the rules.
- Your love for your daughter is clear and I know you want the best for her. But your post is all about you, what you want (and fail to get) and the emotional difficulties that you have. What is it that your daughter wants for herself? When does she have the emotional space to clarify and express this (other than through negative responses?) You describe her place in the family as "the problem child who refuses to conform". So what's the positive, affirmative description? How does she describe herself in positive terms?
- INFP's tend to follow and develop their own "inner compass" of values and principles, rather than conforming to the "dictates of others". So the best way of getting INFP's to cooperate is by appealing to shared values and principles, negotiating "fair and just" agreements, and so on. The key factor is that the INFP has to freely buy into the "deal".
-Independently of all other things, the onset of puberty (9-12 in girls) can be a major factor affecting the need for autonomy, to be different, to rebel, etc.
- Good relationships are not built on being right or wrong, adherence to rules or on authority. They're built on love, respect, honesty, consideration, sharing, support, nurturing, etc. And yes, sometimes you do have to be firm!

Best wishes,

Mike

Yeah no worries, looking back on my post, it was like I was giving advice from on high. I don't have any kids so I consider myself a bit of a hypocrite telling others the best way to raise their kids. I was just saying it in hope that some of it might be useful. I don't really bother applying MBTI to kids behaviour as you can tell. I just do what I feel is right, without analysing things too much.

You do sound like an awesome mum.

Seeking Sanity said:

I never looked at it as trying change her but more identify, I guess that would be the best word for it, the areas she is weakest in and help her develop more of her strengths to even out the field.

Click to expand...

I agree with Amanda on speaking to her personally, like how it affects you. Although Extraverted Feeling is one of her shadow functions, so you cannot push it too hard; but I think she will be affected if it is seen interpersonally.
Like if you all lived in a village and it was more obvious of your inter reliance upon one another.

You may wish to passively change the diet away, and not buy sweets for a while. Although I can only ponder the effects of that.

As for Fi being stubborn, the Ne still works. It just may be working in support of Fi.
In this case it is sort of like she becomes the center of the universe and everything outside is interrelated to her. Forcing her to speak and interpret everything personally.
So the Ne is like, "what does this mean to me?"
I can try explaining this better if it is insufficient. Ideally, the Ne can complement the Fi, but it can become the minion of it.
I think in stead the Ne may need to be used more objectively, as in supporting something outside of herself. Like taking care of other people. (Unfortunately there isn't much of a personable relationship with chores)

And same for school, elementary, jr. high, high school, are very S environments (as I said in the other INFP parent-child thread), and it's not suprising that she has difficulty in it.
I think the MBTI books meant to say INFPs thrive in college, but definitely not before then. The school environment was seriously lacking in interest. And while maybe you can't shove her in that direction, perhaps making sure her desire to fulfill something she enjoys is fulfilled; so that when she does come home, semi-spent from it, then the relaxing time can be put in school or other work.
Like how an INTP sometimes chooses a monotonous job like a librarian (or chores), so that they can focus on their mind while working.


Edit: Idea..
Read INFPs in relationships and it may be the same way. As in, the INFP will not be the initiative one in a relationship. And you have the be the one that opens up emotionally (personal language), that is if you wish to get through to Fi - or so I hope.
Because there is also the over emotional that my mom can do, "I don't ask much of you, I love you, no will you do this for me?", or, "Alright, lets just admit i'm the worst mother, so now can I change you?"
IE: do it without emotional manipulation, just sit down, make sure the both of you are at peace (this includes you), and share your feelings - what it means in a personal realm to you.
And as if you were reading a fairy tale, give room and time to breath.
Like the book Highly Sensitive Person says to treat our beings as if they are babies.

I was a child who went through divorce when I was 5 (now mid-20s) and exhibited many of the same types of issues. I went from being a straight-A student to skipping school and only passing because I picked up enough material just sitting in class to pass each test. Luckily this came late enough in high school where I had already been so scared at everything in life and so introverted that I was never in trouble and coasted all the way through 10th grade without trying, but eventually led to me being hospitalized when I skipped school to sit around at home thinking suicidal thoughts one morning.

I have to say that I think Crown and mikemorrell hit the nail on the head in each of their posts. They approached it a bit differently, but the end result remains basically that your child seems to be extremely bright, is probably not being challenged, and is most likely locking herself away inside her head and lashing out at the world because of the sense of abandonment.

I can't honestly give advice because I don't have kids, and what my parents did for me didn't really work. It wasn't until the past few years where I actually built my confidence and started figuring out who I am, especially in the past year or two (and ESPECIALLY since I found out that there were actually other people like me). So, I can only say what I think might have worked or what certainly doesn't work.

I can tell you that punishment does not work and will only further the problem. And while it may be hard to understand, INFPs look at everything in the world much differently. A perfect example that mike brought up was how your daughter said "I already know the subject matter, why should I have to do these dumb assignments?" and he similarly thought there was a lot of merit to that (I think that too). Throughout my entire life, even up until now, actually being forced to go through with things that make no sense to me has been beyond aggravating. I feel like my time is being wasted and I'm being treated like I'm stupid, even if only indirectly. I remember going through school looking around my class and wondering how people just didn't "get it" like I did. And then, I realized that the reason I was forced to do all this was directly because of everyone else being "stupid," so I privately gained an ego within myself and became annoyed at everyone else. To this day I fight with this side of myself. I am constantly going through life just wanting to shout "Are you serious?! I mean, DUH!" at pretty much everyone.

Of course now I know better and that just because someone isn't as smart or talented at things I am, that doesn't make them any less worthy of a person and we are all equal although different. But when you are 11 it is a bit harder to figure that out. You simply think "No one understands me, no one really cares because they if they did they wouldn't do these things to me (like punishment)." Part of the acting out being exhibited is probably just genuinely your daughter growing up and testing you, and there is always going to be that, but also she is figuring out who she is at that age, and as she does she is most likely realizing the world seems like it doesn't agree with her and how she thinks at every turn.

So, punishing your daughter for doing things that seem completely illogical to her really just reinforces that you're just another idiot to her, thus adding to the reasons not to actually listen to you. You are going to have to find a way to address two major things. First, that you are always on her side and have her back, even if you just go "Yes, I agree with you, but even though the system is stupid we still have to do it because -reason-." But you have to be genuine that you mean that and aren't just saying it to get her to shut up and do something, because INFPs can see right through that. Second, you need those reasons to make sense and show another side to the task being requested, or find ways to help her cope with doing mundane things. As was pointed out at the end of mike's post, the INFP has to buy in freely and have it agree with one of their principles somehow.

You also may need to get used to a few things that might be hard. I know ENFJs usually are pretty big on housekeeping and organization, but you may have to meet half way and allow the room to be a little messy and the bed to not be made sometimes. I can only speak for myself personally, but one of the reasons I signed up to this board a few days ago was to eventually write a post asking for help with how other INFPs have been successful at organizing their lives. Organization is just another word for structure to me, and I HATE structure.

I know this might sound like a weird suggestion, but I have to say that recently I have been extremely intrigued with how the French live. Just hear me out if you are of the "America rules!!!!" crowd before rolling your eyes and going to the next post. I had noticed a show on the Cooking channel (I love to cook!) called "French Food at Home," where the host, Laura Calder, was so authentically happy and pure that I was immediately drawn into the show and immediately looked up everything I could about her. She was from Canada, but went to visit France for a few weeks and wound up staying 7 years prior to doing her show.

There is a term often attributed to the French which I'm sure everyone knows called "joie de vivre," or joy of living, and so many people talking about her show on the internet kept commenting about how she had it. Part of the joie de vivre of the French is taking interest and gaining happiness in the small and mundane details of everyday life. As INFPs are big on perfection, I have found that by wanting things to be perfect for myself (as opposed to, say, because other people said so or it is what the norm is), I find myself doing more maintenance and keeping my house tidier. I noticed that I started cooking and trying to emulate Laura's happiness and acted how she did, with a certain goofiness almost, and lo and behold cooking (and by extension, life) has become even more fun for me. I started making my bed recently because I enjoy making it perfect and then it is still perfectly waiting for me when I'm ready for bed. A brief thing I had read in a review for a book I intend to purchase mentioned how the author discussed putting lavender scent on your pillow. This actually turned out to be a selling point to me. As a guy, I'm not sure how much I care to put lavender scent on my own pillow, but I understood the purpose behind it was doing something so small and effortless while basically pampering yourself. You could probably play on her "princess" desires by doing something similar that allows her to be a little bit of a perfectionist and spoil herself at the same time. Perhaps you can even divvy up the chores and give her more that are in her best interest, that play on the INFP perfectionist tendencies, or that at least make sense to her.

It may also help to try to envision her as a 13 or 14 year old when deciding how to treat her. While the actions she is displaying certainly may seem immature, the mindset and thoughts behind those actions are probably much more advanced and complex. Skipping school to the outside world might seem immature or childish, yet through the eyes of an INFP it might be completely illogical to go to school in the first place, so "how stupid is everyone else to do it just because that's what people say they should do?"

Lastly, encourage creative activities. If she isn't already, find out the most artistic medium that SHE wants (and it HAS to be what she wants to do the most no matter how much you disapprove) and get her going. Whether that is playing an instrument, taking dance lessons, or painting or drawing. Losing myself in art, especially when I'm creating it somehow, is extremely cathartic, and this seems to be a trend among INFPs. A creative outlet is most likely essential to help her get her feelings out rather than bottling them up. Just remember, do not critique unless it is very helpful and warm criticism! Almost like just a suggestion, like "I really liked how you did it that way. Had you thought about doing it this way?" Otherwise, she will take it personally and be afraid to share her art with you from then on out, because for us it is an expression of our emotions and feelings, and it becomes a personal attack on our emotions. Or rather I should say it at least does for me, other INFPs may have thicker skin

I have to say I genuinely feel terrible for your little girl. I can't say I know exactly what she feels like, but if it was anything like what I went through doing the same thing, then it is very, very lonely. I would echo the sentiments about her eventually hurting herself if you let this go on or don't find remedies to the situation, and cannot understate the urgency with which you should act. This is certainly not to say she is going to do something tomorrow or even two years from now, but people don't get suicidal over 1 day just like obese people didn't get there in 1 day either.

I'm sorry this was so long, I can't help but write this way. But I sincerely hope this contributed in some way and hope you find harmony with your daughter

My parents handled me by being VERY stern.
This has helped me in a few ways, they forced me to grow up and do things I wouldn't have on my own. Unfortunately this has backfired in the fact that I haven't learned how to motivate myself, and I won't take action unless I'm forced. Even in things I like. I'm incredibly dependent on them, more so than I should be at my age.

She needs to be challenged, give her some sort of creative outlet. My parents were sure to keep me busy by signing me up for sports teams, art classes, clubs, church activities, ANYTHING. Through this I learned how to interact with other socially (so the tantrums and what not stopped), and I also found out what I love to do. I have found things that I will make goals for myself in, and I will work towards them.

She's going to need a lot of attention, if my parents were busy with the other kids I would take that time to be distracted with my own world. You'll have to monitor her and make her sit down and do her work, but it could be a good idea to show her why making good grades will be beneficial to her in the long run. She probably won't listen. Will probably lash back. So long as she's getting her work done and making grades that you know suitably reflect her intelligence, that's all that matters. This is quite honestly the only reason I did the work I was assigned, when my parents found out I was failing classes because I wasn't doing the work they had to treat me like a baby and literally sit there and watch me do my work.
I hated that so much that I eventually started doing it on my own. Then they loosened up.

Your goal should be to help her reach her potential. She seems intelligent, but unfortunately I feel the school system (and society in general) is directed toward other personality types. If she doesn't make the grades you know she can earn she'll act like she doesn't care, but that's simply her way of coping.

I can tell you... this is going to be difficult. I just realized how awful it would be to have to raise me... You want to see her succeed but you want her to be happy doing it.
I actually am second guessing all the advice I just gave you.
It's not good she's affecting your household negatively though. She needs to be kept under control. Don't even let her consider that misbehaving is an option, like, I didn't realize I could have hit or yelled at my parents until a few years ago. I mean, the thought never crossed my mind simply because my parents made it seem like all hell would be raised if I stepped out of line the tiniest bit.

DO NOT let her test boundaries, that was my parent's fatal mistake. You don't want her doing something, you tell her no and you let her know you REALLY mean it.

As she gets older, don't continue treating her this way. Give her more freedoms in certain areas, but not in areas that could cause major problems. Gotta say, the freedom my parents gave me when it came to the Internet probably caused them most of their issues with me. I would say I was doing schoolwork online, but secretly be chatting with people who introduced me to worlds I didn't know existed. Good for me! Bad for them.
The computer has its ups and downs, unlimited access to new knowledge it both a bad and good thing alike.

Honestly? I don't know what to tell you. I feel like this would all be so much easier if this INFP were an only child, because it's unfair to ask you to pay more attention to her than the other kids. However, lack of attention resulted in my being suicidal. THEN, my parents decided to pay more attention to me and it caused problems with EVERYBODY else- OH MY GOSH... I don't want to have kids.

Ugh, well, here's what I can say: She'll turn out alright if you can help her find her niche and let her flourish in whatever she deems worthy of her attention (writing, dancing, singing, photography, sports, etc.).

The parts that I have in bold are things that I get and in fact do myself so when she has a "Are you serious" moment I get it and her and I will even talk about that. I also enjoy life and except what comes my way good and bad. I'm the kind of glass is full person because life is about what you can see and what you can't see.

I happen to be an ENFJ that is not super big on the housekeeping I tend to have the view point that it just needs to be livable conditions such as we need dishes to eat off of, we need clean clothing, and with how bad the dog is shedding we need to keep up on sweeping and vacuuming the floors. I don't feel that the floors have to be washed all the time or stuff like that because if we/I did that all the time I would not have the time to enjoy my life. As for the bed heck I don't make it half the time myself I'm just going to sleep in it again any ways. I practice what I called an organized mess meaning that things may look chaotic but I can still find what I'm looking for and its contained to an area. When it comes to her room all I ask for is a way to get in if I have to like to put her clean laundry on the bed.

I know she is very bright and have known this. She is what is referred to as a "after-schooled" which is she can explore other things outside of what the school teaches. I can't home school due to income reasons, even though I would love to, but this gives her the extra she is looking for.

I would never ask for the "princess phase" to come back and even though it may seem like the perfect child until you live with some one who is like that you will never get the dynamics of life with that person. It is something she herself has said was over the top. She didn't get in trouble for giving herself a mud bath in fact all I could do was laugh. The part that wasn't so cool was streaking through the neighborhood in nothing but mud and her birthday suit. When she commented on organization not being in her vocabulary she was telling me about one of her friends who keeps trying to change where things are in my daughters room and tells her just wants to help her organize it better that when she made the comment, not because of something I said. All I could do was laugh when she said it and she responded "will its true" I told her "yes it is" but the way she said it was funny so I couldn't help but laugh and I did tell her sorry I was laughing but she tells me that its ok because it is funny.

She happens to love art and has a set up all to herself that includes her paints, canvases, charcoal, pencils, sketch pads, etc. and when she needs more of something we go out and get it. Losing ones self in art in one form or another is common place in this house since we all do it and its also encouraged.

Chores in this house are handled with her in a way that goes against the norm. We all look to one another to help and support each other. Helping around the house is an extension of that so not one person has to do it all. When I was younger all the household stuff got dished out to my brother and I our parents never did any of it. We had to do all the dishes, the laundry, cutting the grass, raking leaves, weeding the garden, dust the house, sweep the floors, etc. it all fell on us while my parents got to do what ever. My mom was often times telling people how great it was that we did everything so she could have time to do what it is she wanted like knit, or read, or go out with her girlfriend. I never wanted my kids to have to go through that so we split the jobs up between the 5 of us. Before we split up the jobs we asked what each person wanted to do, for instance my daughter loves to mop the floor why I don't know but she like to do it so that's one of her jobs. My other daughter (6) loves to vacuum so that's what she wanted. My son (4) loves to help load the washing machine. We each have jobs, kids and adults, and they are posted on the fridge. Each child then has a check list so they can keep track of what they have to do. Now this is where it makes a big time branch off that most people look at me strangely for. I'm not a big reward for behavior person, we are people not dogs, but we as adults every day have to go through actions which will lead to a reward at the end and that reward is called a PAYCHECK. So we don't give her an allowance she gets an honest to god pay check at the end of the week. This also teaches her money skills since she deposits part into her her savings account and keeps the rest in cash. This is a system that makes since to her and was partly her idea she just didn't know how to make it work so we worked together to find away. When her brother or sister steps up and do what she did not they do it on there own. I don't have to say "hey can you do this since your sister didn't". My youngest has said she does this because she wants to help and we are suppose to help each other so for her its in her nature to be helpful and does so with out prompting.

Now as for the comment about this not being that extreme of an issue and the likely hood of her or someone else getting hurt is near zilch I guess you missed the part about her running off. Now personally that's extreme for me if its not for you then fine, but to have YOUR CHILD take off and not know where she went and have the neighbors out looking for her is extreme. We don't live in a world where a child can SAFELY take off to where ever without telling a soul where she is going. This is a matter of safety. Can anyone who has a child or is in charge of a child honestly say that not knowing where to find said child DOES NOT make them feel that surge of panic and can look at it like "ah no big deal I'm sure they will turn up at some point", that alone gives me an "are you serious" moment.

Enough of that rant moving on. I know what its like to be a girl at that age because I was once her age and can remember it well. I wish some one would have been this concerned with me as I am with her during this time of growth to reach out to others for insight as how best to be a guide for me, and yes that is all that I am I am just a guide that needs to update the navigation system.

Oh and BTW I don't like conflicts or a battle of wills and I avoid them when ever I can no matter who they are with my daughter included, so on that note I am sorry for the long post again but am thankful for all of your sage advice.

JerseyDevil said:

I am constantly going through life just wanting to shout "Are you serious?! I mean, DUH!" at pretty much everyone.

I know ENFJs usually are pretty big on housekeeping and organization, but you may have to meet half way and allow the room to be a little messy and the bed to not be made sometimes.


There is a term often attributed to the French which I'm sure everyone knows called "joie de vivre," or joy of living,

Click to expand...

in short, my question for you is that since you have lot of thing going on within your life (your education, your job and a relatively new family), you seems to focus your parenting on simply setting your 11 yo daughter on the right track/"doing the right thing", but in terms of nurturing your daughter and having deep personal connection, you didn't mention too much about that in either of your posts. it is diffcult for me to say pin point out anything base on this brief info because nurturing and connection is also important too, would you mind elaborate more on the nuruting part?

and in terms of your idea chores, no you cannot make your daughter have you same view on how does chores, you can only explain it to her that if she take part in cleaning up the house, the house will cleaner and nicer and you will be grateful that she help you out. i know lots of loving middles class families who have mature adult and loving caring mother who hate chores and simply don't to chores and hire a workers do it, and i dont think they are really that out of norm either.

It sounds like you are quite on the ball already then. I totally agree with the paycheck idea, and I hope that when she doesn't do her chores and the others pick up the slack for her, that they get the money that she would have previously received had she done it. That isn't punishment, that is just lack of reward.

I don't know if you were referring to my post when it came to not worrying about her hurting herself, as I said just the opposite of that and that you should act swiftly to not let her go down that road.

As for the princess thing, I wasn't suggesting that she should go back to viewing herself as a princess. I think many kids are much too spoiled and act out because their parents treat them as if they are princesses. I was just trying to suggest that a good way to motivate her to do her chores is if there is some way that she gets a reward, can pamper herself in the process, and/or can find a way to take joy in the actual task by letting her "perfectionism" out a bit (focusing on the small details of each task and how they can be perfected can help in this area). You actually managed to already do this with the paycheck idea. I didn't want to suggest it since some parents have the "They are your chores, I'm not rewarding you for stuff you are supposed to do" mentality, but I wholeheartedly agree with how you are handling it.

In the end, the best thing I can think of is that she is acting out because of the sense of abandonment and having a new Dad "forced" upon her more than anything. It can really shatter your world at such a young age to have your family ripped apart and then have it be reformed differently, especially since INFPs are so emotional. It seems to me like you covered most of the bases as far as just being an INFP goes with giving her creative outlets, trying to challenge her further, giving rewards for a good job (as opposed to punishment for doing nothing or a bad job), etc. I know my parents tried to do the "if you do chores, you get an allowance" type thing, and I still wound up being unmotivated. It wasn't because I didn't like getting money to buy things I liked, but other issues were overriding that for me at the time.

Also though, my parents made it easy for me to avoid doing those things in the first place. If you are going to give her a paycheck, then I hope you aren't covering her when she doesn't have her own money to pay for things, otherwise it defeats the purpose. This was a major downfall for my parents with me.

So, the feeling of abandonment combined with just growing up and being a bit rebellious were the reasons I acted out in the way I did. Your daughter being an INFP certainly presents its own issues into the situation, but with all you have described, I am more inclined to think that it has less to do with her MBTI type and more to do with the things that have happened in her life so far.

My honest feeling is that therapy would be good for your daughter. I have seen a few different therapists in my time, and I think the ones that worked the best for me were ones who challenged my ability to reason out why I did things and who came off as a friend and equal to me, rather than a doctor trying to diagnose me. The type who sit there and just let you spill your guts were worthless, like the ones who constantly just repeated "And how did that make you feel?" I also immediately turned on and never opened up again to this one who told my parents something that I thought was said in confidence. So perhaps your daughter just never had the chance to feel comfortable with the right one? It may be worth it to talk to a few over the phone as a mini "interview" to get their thoughts on how to handle an INFP child who went through a divorce. Chances are, if they are saying things you've read in this thread, then they will "get it" better than others and those are the ones you should maybe try bringing your daughter to. All people are different, and one counselor may work great for one type of person and be terrible for another.

Again though, I'm just some guy on the internet who has no real knowledge of you or your daughter, so I certainly am not trying to speak with any kind of authority on the subject and wouldn't want my words to be taken as the gospel on the subject. But I do certainly hope things start to get better for you and especially your daughter

No not yours love you truly understand that road is not a very nice one to walk down. I was addressing other comments as well in my posting.

JerseyDevil said:

I don't know if you were referring to my post when it came to not worrying about her hurting herself, as I said just the opposite of that and that you should act swiftly to not let her go down that road.

Click to expand...

SenhorFrio said:

1. i still dislike organization, my parents would laways try and make me clean up and ididn't like because i knew i make a mess again, and when i had my stuff all out in my"own special"way, so the issue was never resolved-i clean up because i was forced to
2. my family gave my unconditional love so i never worried about pleasing them, i percieved my friends though as not liking me unconditionally

now about the it alll as a whole, my mom is an INFJ so im lucky she understood my introverting more and my dad is also an introvert.with me there was no teaching my the typical work ethic, and what i accepted was my dad's view"you don't do work because you like it, theres just no getting around it"and i think that helped me out alot.

Click to expand...

She has the same view point as number 1 and we have tried to figure out ways of helping her. She now has an idea she wants to try but I had to ask her to wait till dad gets paid Friday since it involves these bins she found at the craft store yesterday that have wooden plaques on them that say Art, Pretties, CD's, ect. I like the idea and am all for trying it since it is her room and she is the one who has to ultimately live in there I was just running low on funds this week.

We were talking in the car yesterday about her friends and stuff one of the things she had told me was she is afraid her friends won't like her if she doesn't do what they want to do and when I tell her no to something her friends want her to do she has a bunch of mixed up feelings some are scary since she thinks her friends will hate her and some are as she put it "thank god I don't have to do that now". She did say that she feels a lot of pressure from her friends to the point she wants to explode but can't get them to back off. She also said she feels like she gets mad at her family for stuff her friends did and that just doesn't make since to her. So we talked about a persons breaking point and how sometimes you reach it and all the hurt that was caused by someone else comes out and you get angry at the wrong person then you feel bad because you hurt them and the nasty circle it makes.

My dad also taught me just about the same thing as yours. My dad is a drummer and would have loved to have done it for his whole life, he had many chances to but in the end his family won out over fortune and fame while I got to grow up knowing all kinds of famous musicians. Anyways the line my dad always said was drumming may not pay the bills but its an outlet so I don't kill anyone from the job I have to do just to pay those bills. So doing things you don't like to do is common place here as well and she does get that and has said that well that's just part of life, its just there is a missing piece to make that final connection personal.

I am never to busy for my kids ever; yes I have the family thing and school thing, and as it may have been implied I am not working since school is a job enough. I do things one on one with all of them. Last night after I got the younger ones to bed I asked my oldest if she wanted to go for a moonlight swim with me. Well it wasn't dark enough yet so we waited and made preparations for our swim. She wanted the torches lit so we lit them. She picked out what music we should listen to while I built a fire in the outdoor fireplace (have to have smores after a moonlight swim:tongue. Once it was dark enough for us in the pool we went where we ended up being deep sea divers in search of the mermaid kingdom. So she went to bed a little latter than normal but it was well worth it. Sometimes the time we share doesn't involve much. One thing she likes to do is use me as a pillow which is fine by me and she will stretch out and read a book while I study. She'll ask what I'm learning and I'll talk to her about it. Some of the parts of one text I had to read where down right stupid and when I read to her one of the parts she said "This is college? This sounds like 4th grade how stupid do they think people are?" I told her I was glad that I'm not the only one who sees this and its kinda scary that a 4th grader could see this when most adults can't. She tells me I'm not like most adults and I tell her shes not like most 4th graders.

So yes I do spend time with her and all my kids, yes her and I talk, and yes I listen to her point of view and want to make sure it is included and not treated as "kid fluff" like most adults would.

Oh one thing I know I failed to mention is the whole dad thing since its hard for me to talk about. She has never meet her biological father and it is something I dislike talking about to strangers so I'll make some general statements and hope you all catch the point. I had an accident when I was 16 and was told I could not have kids due to the amount of damage my body sustained. I was on the pill to help control things but when I was 20 they took me off for other reasons. Now not all guys take rejection well and this guy didn't take "sorry I'm not interested" for an answer. So I went from being told "sorry you can't ever have kids" to waking up one morning feeling sick as all hell and wondering if it was from the nightmare I had about the event again to finding out that I am pregnant, it didn't matter to me at that point how it happened all I knew was I beat the odds and nothing was going to stop me from having and keeping this child. Now with all that being said (and my hands are shaking now as I type) my ex is her step dad and we got married when she was 3. When she was 5 he started to mess around and ended up leaving while I was pregnant with my youngest the summer she turned 6. As for my new husband and the one she calls dad she has known him for her whole life. He has been my best friend since we where 19 years old. When we were younger we where both involved with other people so of course nothing happened but that's beside the point. He has always been a father figure in her life and when she found out we were dating she yelled at us and said "that"s it just dating shouldn't you guys be getting married by now." so of course my husbands partner in crime for the whole marriage proposal thing was my daughter, in fact her room is where he hide the ring so I would never find it. The one thing she has said she wants now is for him to adopt her so everyone will know that he really is her dad and he wants to do it since he himself has said he is her dad and has been helping in that role since day one with her, so we have been saving up the money for the attorney and court fees to have it done.

Ugh this is long again oh well. I hope this back story is a bit more food for thought and yes this last part is about me and what I went through but it does pertain to her and where she came from so all I ask is if you comment on it please be kind it takes a lot for me to open up about this and other dark places in my life. I have only opened up like this once before on an ENFJ thread about losing faith so for me to do this is a very rare.