[Istbkleta]

Hi All :wink:

This is only my second post, right after another one in an ENTP tread about our feelings.
As you have probably guessed, it seems a bunch of NTPs are completely helpless here. I know because I read extensively through the INTP forums, because I believe they are the smartest type

Nevertheless, after all that reading, I am scared. And NTPs are notorious for not knowing what we are feeling. Scared is a pretty clear feeling here

How do you do it? How did you not go crazy when you were developing your Feeling part, which with you starts pretty early. I have known tree ENFPs in RL ... and all of them do not seem to me to have particularly stable development or personality. And since Fe is the 3d function with ENTPs, we "hit puberty" pretty late with the emotional side of things. I can dissect them, analyze, imagine, etc. but in order to get them mastered, my NT mind is making me do something that does not feel good. And in particular, how and when and with whom did you learn to lie to protect people's feelings. As an ENTP lying like that is ... bad. Doesn't lying feel bad and how did you overcame that?

Any help will be appreciated!

 

[ifyouwishto]

How did you not go crazy when you were developing your Feeling part, which with you starts pretty early.

My mother is a counselor and the men in my family are all pretty sensitive, even the NTs, so it wasn't particularly hard. My mother taught me how to "step outside" myself and analyze my feelings. For a while (years, in fact) I become rather bitter, broken down and closed off because I let people in repeatedly and each time they hurt me. It was only recently, and with time, that I learned the only way to really experience things is to open myself up to others. Does it hurt? Yes, a lot of the time it does. Sometimes I think I might go crazy from the pain, confusion, and loss that trusting others with your emotional side can cause. Then I listen to some music, write a poem, dance, hang out with my other F-dominant friends, get sympathy from everyone I know and move on.

Why do I still do it? Because the wonderful, trusting, open part lasts weeks or months a lot of the time, and the painful part is always much, much shorter. Because I believe pain is cleansing, and it teaches me more about myself. Because I believe that facing my fears give me much more self-esteem than refusing to feel would. Because some of those people who I've trusted have become stabilizing rocks in my life, and others have taught me about my inner strength and values and made me realize how amazing, poetic, soulful, and caring I am.

Because the pain passes and the strength stays, as do the happy memories.

And in particular, how and when and with whom did you learn to lie to protect people's feelings. As an ENTP lying like that is ... bad. Doesn't lying feel bad and how did you overcame that?

What the hell? :| Lying does feel bad to me. Do I feel bad when someone asks for my opinion about something terribly personal, important and dear to them and I verbally sidestep around pointing out how awful it is (be it a movie, book, something they did, something they're wearing, etc.) in order to find some halfway truthful compliment to tell them? No, of course not. Telling the truth would be selfish. I'd be doing it so I felt better about myself. But I wouldn't, because I hate hurting people and it hurts me.

Do I feel bad if someone asks me how I feel about something personal to me and I lie to save face, to avoid confrontation, to avoid trusting them, to avoid conflict, etc... yes. Which is why I strive to be authentic. Healthy ENFPs are all about striving to be authentic, as a generalization.

 

[Rube]

Hi All :wink:

This is only my second post, right after another one in an ENTP tread about our feelings.
As you have probably guessed, it seems a bunch of NTPs are completely helpless here. I know because I read extensively through the INTP forums, because I believe they are the smartest type

Nevertheless, after all that reading, I am scared. And NTPs are notorious for not knowing what we are feeling. Scared is a pretty clear feeling here

How do you do it? How did you not go crazy when you were developing your Feeling part, which with you starts pretty early. I have known tree ENFPs in RL ... and all of them do not seem to me to have particularly stable development or personality. And since Fe is the 3d function with ENTPs, we "hit puberty" pretty late with the emotional side of things. I can dissect them, analyze, imagine, etc. but in order to get them mastered, my NT mind is making me do something that does not feel good. And in particular, how and when and with whom did you learn to lie to protect people's feelings. As an ENTP lying like that is ... bad. Doesn't lying feel bad and how did you overcame that?

Any help will be appreciated!

Ok, first of all I'm not too sure what you're talking about just because I usually don't think about this stuff That being said, my development was incredibly unstable and my personality is even more unstable. I also do not entirely know what happened while I was developing my feeling side, as I am still developing it. I will say this though, it's not always easy. This is because many of the beliefs and values I'm developing are very different than those I've been told to develop, which is creating a good deal of conflict. I've also lost a lot of past contacts and had to do a lot of restructuring of social networks. It's also leading to a bit of arrogance on my part, as I feel my beliefs are right even though moral authorities tell me otherwise. I should note that I'm not sure if any of what I just said has anything to do with me feeling side though, since I don't know much about that stuff. So basically I'm just ranting.

As for lying, I've always been good at lying. I do feel bad about it, but usually not until after I've already lied. When I first learned to lie it also wasn't to protect people's feelings, it was to protect myself. Even when I started lying to protect people's feeling I probably did it just to stay on good terms with them, not because I was particularly concerned about their feelings. When I lie like that now, however, it's out of empathy. I know that an honest answer will cause the target pain, and when I think about that I feel bad too. So I lie to avoid seeing the person in emotional pain, so that I don't have to feel bad either. Of course, if they explicitly tell me to be honest I'll tell the truth; I'll just try to say it in a nice way.

Did any of that make any sense? I'm in a caffeine crash right now...

 

[Rube]

My mother is a counselor and the men in my family are all pretty sensitive, even the NTs, so it wasn't particularly hard. My mother taught me how to "step outside" myself and analyze my feelings. For a while (years, in fact) I become rather bitter, broken down and closed off because I let people in repeatedly and each time they hurt me. It was only recently, and with time, that I learned the only way to really experience things is to open myself up to others. Does it hurt? Yes, a lot of the time it does. Sometimes I think I might go crazy from the pain, confusion, and loss that trusting others with your emotional side can cause. Then I listen to some music, write a poem, dance, hang out with my other F-dominant friends, get sympathy from everyone I know and move on.

Why do I still do it? Because the wonderful, trusting, open part lasts weeks or months a lot of the time, and the painful part is always much, much shorter. Because I believe pain is cleansing, and it teaches me more about myself. Because I believe that facing my fears give me much more self-esteem than refusing to feel would. Because some of those people who I've trusted have become stabilizing rocks in my life, and others have taught me about my inner strength and values and made me realize how amazing, poetic, soulful, and caring I am.

Because the pain passes and the strength stays, as do the happy memories.

Interesting account, and I'm glad you had the support you needed early on.

As for myself, I was taught that expressing too many emotions was not only unproductive, but in many cases a sin. This is especially true for sappy emotions, like love and sadness. When bad things happened I had no one to turn to, so I just closed off and stopped feeling the emotions that lead to pain, such as love. I learned that the only way to avoid betrayal was to not trust. Unfortunately this numbing came at a bad time in my development, and I'm afraid it's somewhat permanent.

 

[ifyouwishto]

I will add on to what Rube said to say that I've been known to lie to people's faces out of a sense of humor. Not about anything important, and usually they catch on... but I just reach points where I get tired of people asking me to explain the obvious and I become extremely, darkly sarcastic. So I do lie in that way, I suppose. But I don't feel well about myself if I don't tell someone the whole truth, and I'll worry at it a while and then try to tell them the truth... especially when it comes to how I feel about someone, it's scary to tell the truth but I feel awful about myself if I brush my feelings off, like I'm being inauthentic and cowardly.

 

[Rube]

I will add on to what Rube said to say that I've been known to lie to people's faces out of a sense of humor. Not about anything important, and usually they catch on... but I just reach points where I get tired of people asking me to explain the obvious and I become extremely, darkly sarcastic. So I do lie in that way, I suppose.

Ahaha, I love doing that! Sarcasm is one of the best things EVER!! Lots of times people don't get that I'm being sarcastic though, then they get really offended and I laugh even more (on the inside).

 

[Essay]

And in particular, how and when and with whom did you learn to lie to protect people's feelings. As an ENTP lying like that is ... bad. Doesn't lying feel bad and how did you overcame that?

I can't say that anything in me is attuned to protecting anyone's feelings. What is a feeling and why does it need to be protected? A feeling is no one thing to be protected in one way. Each person has their own conscious, emotional impulses and I have to approach each as a new case study if I'm going to do any good. And by "do good", I mean minimize conflict, because that's simply what my Fi dictates that I must do. From my experience, lying is never as effective as helping someone cope with the inherent, sometimes painful, subjectivity of experience and has no place in my interactions with others.

The combination of Ne and Fi does little if not force us to be aware of individuals on a case-to-case basis. There's no dimension of common-sense to it---no strategy to improve social cohesion on a general level. There's no trend of lying to overcome because I know I don't lie in general. If I somehow lie in an instant of distraction, I try to be mindful enough to catch it and proactive enough to resolve any discord that that lie caused.

But that's where my Fi stands on lying. Fe is concerned with something else entirely and is not my specialty. Try asking other feelers about that.

 

[Essay]

I will add on to what Rube said to say that I've been known to lie to people's faces out of a sense of humor. Not about anything important, and usually they catch on... but I just reach points where I get tired of people asking me to explain the obvious and I become extremely, darkly sarcastic. So I do lie in that way, I suppose.

We should draw the line between lying and BS'ing more clearly. One is clearly not a bad thing! roud:

 

[ifyouwishto]

As for myself, I was taught that expressing too many emotions was not only unproductive, but in many cases a sin. This is especially true for sappy emotions, like love and sadness. When bad things happened I had no one to turn to, so I just closed off and stopped feeling the emotions that lead to pain, such as love. I learned that the only way to avoid betrayal was to not trust. Unfortunately this numbing came at a bad time in my development, and I'm afraid it's somewhat permanent.

That's really awful for you, and I'm sorry. I was really lucky and blessed, I have a truly supportive father who doesn't fit the stereotypes of masculinity, except for the part where he takes care of his family and demands respect from his children. I've always felt supported any time I expressed an emotion, even a dark, selfish one that I was reprimanded for.

That said, I don't think what happened to you has to be permanent. My mom had a very, very difficult childhood. She's an NF - not sure about the other letters, as she's mellowed so much with age, but she strikes me mostly as an INFP. In any case, she was abused mentally, physically, and emotionally, abandoned and unsupported financially. But she met and married my father, the kindest, most supportive and loyal man I know, and while they've had hard times she's overcome them with the help of therapy and medication.

She is an amazing, strong, loyal, affectionate woman who gave me every one of her difficult lessons and protected me from having to learn them the hard way, like she did.

Sarcasm is one of the best things EVER!! Lots of times people don't get that I'm being sarcastic though, then they get really offended and I laugh even more (on the inside).

Haha yeah I offend people sometimes, but since I'm young, female, and relatively unassuming they don't typically react angrily. They just decide I'm stupid/offensive and move on. Sometimes they're so surprised that young lady would have a brash, sexual potty mouth that they forget to reprimand me.

 

[Rube]

Haha yeah I offend people sometimes, but since I'm young, female, and relatively unassuming they don't typically react angrily. They just decide I'm stupid/offensive and move on. Sometimes they're so surprised that young lady would have a brash, sexual potty mouth that they forget to reprimand me.

haha omg, people get absolutely pissed at me sometimes! But my sarcastic comments are more concerned with christianity than sexaul things, which tends to get people pretty worked up. I also like to jokingly pretend to be a sociopath, which doesn't go over well with people who don't actually know me. Is there a certain group of people you tend to make your sarcastic remarks to most often? Cause if you're being a "sexual potty mouth" around men chances are they won't be too upset...

 

[ifyouwishto]

Is there a certain group of people you tend to make your sarcastic remarks to most often? Cause if you're being a "sexual potty mouth" around men chances are they won't be too upset...

Hahaha well it depends, sometimes I'll make a very glib, dirty remark around men (like "that's what she said") but usually I just say things to catch people off-guard. It's fun to watch their reactions.

 

[Istbkleta]

Thank you.
Interesting points of view. I am not entirely sure I understand them correctly The idea to look into other Feelers with Fe sounds interesting. And entps have very little Fi, so even when I don't know my feelings, I feel those of others. Hence entps I've noticed on the forums avoid enfps. Cause I say the things that r going to make u feel good and enfps are happy. I also say the thing that make u feel bad because I honestly believe theyll help u. Then enfps freak out and I /and other entps apparently/ freak out cause we feel bad but dont want to lie ... No matter how hard I try to get into an enfp's shoes, I don't have Fi and have no idea how Cant remember an enfp I haven't offended. Still cant figure out exactly how and why. Fi-ing what is right instead of deriving it logically from facts - cant do it and dont understand how it is even possible. Funny thing is enfps show a lot of contempt to this inability while I consciously restrain myself from feeling contempt for somebody who doesn't think but rather feel.

 

[Rube]

Hahaha well it depends, sometimes I'll make a very glib, dirty remark around men (like "that's what she said") but usually I just say things to catch people off-guard. It's fun to watch their reactions.

haha, indeed it is!

 

[Rube]

Thank you.
Interesting points of view. I am not entirely sure I understand them correctly The idea to look into other Feelers with Fe sounds interesting. And entps have very little Fi, so even when I don't know my feelings, I feel those of others. Hence entps I've noticed on the forums avoid enfps. Cause I say the things that r going to make u feel good and enfps are happy. I also say the thing that make u feel bad because I honestly believe theyll help u. Then enfps freak out and I /and other entps apparently/ freak out cause we feel bad but dont want to lie ... No matter how hard I try to get into an enfp's shoes, I don't have Fi and have no idea how Cant remember an enfp I haven't offended. Still cant figure out exactly how and why. Fi-ing what is right instead of deriving it logically from facts - cant do it and dont understand how it is even possible. Funny thing is enfps show a lot of contempt to this inability while I consciously restrain myself from feeling contempt for somebody who doesn't think but rather feel.

ENFPs are idealists, and as such we have a tendency to overreact when someone disagrees with us. It's not your fault; it's just that we don't always understand peoples' intentions. But let me ask you this, when you say things that make us feel bad but you think will help us, how do you typically go about doing so? Because the way you frame a statement can have an ENORMOUS impact on how it's received, especially when dealing with feelers. So maybe what you're saying is actually very helpful, but we ENFPs perceive it to be blunt and uncaring.

As a side note, we also have a tendency to be much more unsure of ourselves than we seem. So when people say things that make us feel bad, we perceive it as an attack because of our poor self-images. This is another reason why it's often important to frame comments in a way that makes it clear you're not insulting the person, but trying to help them. Of course, if the ENFP actually understands you this won't be much of a problem, because they'll learn that you're trying to help them.

 

[StandingTiger]

How do you do it? How did you not go crazy when you were developing your Feeling part, which with you starts pretty early.

I was an angsty child. I acted like a teenager by age 5.

And in particular, how and when and with whom did you learn to lie to protect people's feelings. As an ENTP lying like that is ... bad. Doesn't lying feel bad and how did you overcame that?

I'd say that's more of an Fe thing than an Fi thing, and ENFPs are Fi.

 

[Istbkleta]

... But let me ask you this, when you say things that make us feel bad but you think will help us, how do you typically go about doing so? Because the way you frame a statement can have an ENORMOUS impact on how it's received, especially when dealing with feelers. ... As a side note, we also have a tendency to be much more unsure of ourselves than we seem. So when people say things that make us feel bad, we perceive it as an attack ...

What I've learned to do is say "I feel" instead of "I think". Dunno if that's enough but cant stick to even this simple rule. Feels like manipulation for profit

So you see, developing Feeling is rather scary because I expect people to be brutally honest and don't take offence, but rather am grateful for constructive criticism. Hate it when people do it out of spite, feel disappointed in them, but ... I don't care that much what they think. Just sad it's more "boring" people wasting air. I really value my objectivity and want to learn to feel without going crazy on meds or sacrificing my objective logic.

It really helps to hear the other side.
Thank you.

Just one question,
Despite the entps numerous vices (a lot of), being sensitive to people's opinions is not the most prominent one cause of the T. Don't you want to be able to get what you want regardless of people's opinions of you, and how do you develop your Ti? Is it scary like my Fe maturing?

 

[marzipan01]

Hi All :wink:

This is only my second post, right after another one in an ENTP tread about our feelings.
As you have probably guessed, it seems a bunch of NTPs are completely helpless here. I know because I read extensively through the INTP forums, because I believe they are the smartest type

Nevertheless, after all that reading, I am scared. And NTPs are notorious for not knowing what we are feeling. Scared is a pretty clear feeling here

How do you do it? How did you not go crazy when you were developing your Feeling part, which with you starts pretty early. I have known tree ENFPs in RL ... and all of them do not seem to me to have particularly stable development or personality. And since Fe is the 3d function with ENTPs, we "hit puberty" pretty late with the emotional side of things. I can dissect them, analyze, imagine, etc. but in order to get them mastered, my NT mind is making me do something that does not feel good. And in particular, how and when and with whom did you learn to lie to protect people's feelings. As an ENTP lying like that is ... bad. Doesn't lying feel bad and how did you overcame that?

Any help will be appreciated!

1. You don't have to lie to protect other people's feelings. I personally believe in honesty and don't lie. I legitimately am sorry when I hurt other people's feelings but am always honest. When this hurts, I apologize and seek to correct my line of thinking. This way I learn new things every time someone gets angry with me.
2. If you want to learn how to use and cultivate Fe (the function that knows how to lie to protect feelings), ask ENFJs. They are intuitive so they can be much clearer about general trends in their function and there aren't many ESFJs on the forum so I think they wander other threads anyway.
3. The difference between Fi and Fe is that Fe is concerned with making people happy, sad, or dead right now in order to accomplish the good thing in the long run. Fi is concerned with doing the good/evil thing now so that everyone will be happy/sad/dead in the long run.
4. How do you do the good thing/be respectful of other human beings?
First, realize that other people that might think differently than you are not stupid.
Second, listen to people. Listen to what they are actually saying. If you don't understand what they are saying, say, "What do you mean by that?"
Third, think about how your actions will affect other people's lives in a negative or positive way. And ask yourself, "What did this person do to deserve my hostility? Am I being overly aggressive? Why am I angry right now? What do I feel about this person in reality? Where is this person coming from?" Etc.

 

[Who]

As an ENFP, I'm not against objective criticism at all. If someone who is genuinely more experienced or educated about a topic than me gives me advice on how to improve in that area. Plus if I write something, I generally prefer people to explain what they thought of it with the parts they liked and disliked since it lets me know what I need to work on.

The problem has more to do with objective criticism that I find unnecessary. If I cook something and I somehow mess it up, I don't need someone to point out to me that something went wrong. It's just another voice repeating what I'm already fully aware of and I can usually find out where I messed up by rereading the recipe to see what I missed. I know they don't intend this when they do it, but it usually feels like they think I'm too stupid to realize and learn from my own mistakes. If it's a mistake I'm genuinely unaware of and make repeatedly, I can understand the need to point it out, but if I mess up once, I won't do the exact same thing and expect better results in the future.

 

[Rube]

What I've learned to do is say "I feel" instead of "I think". Dunno if that's enough but cant stick to even this simple rule. Feels like manipulation for profit

Yea, that's a good idea. Saying "I feel" puts your statement in more subjective terms, which is good for some ENFPs because in our mind it's nearly impossible for anyone to know the complete truth. So sometimes we get upset when people say things in an objective manner, just because we sometimes get the impression that they're 100% certain they're right. Notice how many times I used words like "sometimes" or "most" in the past few sentences, since it illustrates how sketchy we can be of too much certainty. Maybe what you're doing is manipulation for profit, but it's for a good cause. Manipulation can actually be good, depending on how it's used. At least that's my opinion.

So you see, developing Feeling is rather scary because I expect people to be brutally honest and don't take offence, but rather am grateful for constructive criticism. Hate it when people do it out of spite, feel disappointed in them, but ... I don't care that much what they think. Just sad it's more "boring" people wasting air. I really value my objectivity and want to learn to feel without going crazy on meds or sacrificing my objective logic.

It really helps to hear the other side.
Thank you.

I feel you, and you're welcome

Just one question,
Despite the entps numerous vices (a lot of), being sensitive to people's opinions is not the most prominent one cause of the T. Don't you want to be able to get what you want regardless of people's opinions of you, and how do you develop your Ti? Is it scary like my Fe maturing?

Well you see, many times what we want is for people to think highly of us. I know this sounds silly, but many ENFPs (and NFs in general) have fragile self-esteem. Since we don't always like ourselves very much, we look for confirmation and acceptance from outside sources. So unless we learn to rely on ourselves for our own happiness, we're very concerned with what people think of us. Of course this doesn't apply to people we hate

As for he Ti thing, I don't understand cognitive functions very well but I think my Ti is currently developing. And yes, when it first started it was a little tough. This is because I began to realize that many of my fantasies and preconceptions of the world simply weren't true. When I objectively looked at the evidence, it became clear that many of the beliefs I had clung to as a child were either false or not as true as I had thought. This was upsetting at the time, but now I'm glad of it. I'm glad that I'm becoming better at seeing the world as it really is, even if it's much colder than I previously thought.

EDIT: I just realized that ENFPs have Te, not Ti.

 

[ifyouwishto]

I find that the criticism I hate most from Ti types is when they tell me that a reaction I'm having to something is _________. I dated an INTJ for a very brief period, and one of the biggest issues we had is that he would want to read my writing to give me critique but I didn't feel comfortable with that just yet. Instead of understanding and moving on he pushed at me, and then when I refused he would critique the fact that I wouldn't let him see my work, saying:

"You must not think it's very good if you won't let me see it. Let me help you out."
"You're going to have to learn how to let people see your work if you want to succeed in writing as a career."
"You get offended easily."

The critique of the fact that I didn't want him to read my work made me angry, because it felt like he was telling me that my way of feeling was wrong, and I should act more rational (like him). While all the things he said were technically true, none of them made me want to trust him with my writing, which is very intimate to me.

He was critiquing me as a person, my emotions, my ability to reach my goals, etc. He was doing it all as an attempt to get me to do something he wanted me to do, and instead he lost me completely because I got so tired of being pushed and criticized.