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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello PerC,

I have a friend who has a strong hatred of White America. His hatred, though, has an interesting origin. He's told me not a single white person has ever been hateful toward him. Rather, his cites the origin of his hatred by the observations he's made of them. His main observation of White America is the following: for being largely middle-class, and have a relatively comfortable life, why do they, nonetheless, feel a need to demean minorities and assert superiority over them?
However, he hates himself over his racism, and wants to be able to overcome it without ignoring issues of race altogether. He's seeking a kind of "enlightenment", if you will.

While I somewhat agree with him that White America has sins it won't "repent" of, I agree that he needs to overcome his hated as there are better ways to approach the problems of life without destroying oneself and one's inner peace.

If it helps, he's an INFJ (or INFP). Lol, we're both the same type, and yet I feel as though I can't help him, so I've resorted to PerC.

P.S., I have no interest in sarcastic comments or comments on "reverse-racism". Stay away. I only want the advice of people who genuinely care for the soul of my friend.

I want to thank those persons in advance who will post and provide sound advice for my friend.
 

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Would it be okay to ask what would be underlying his racism?
I can only speculate. My own thoughts are that he may have experienced some trauma, he is highly suggestible or that he is depressed. I think it is likely that he doesn't know what is causing it and a therapist can help him discover and address its root.
 

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Basically, people have been ethnocentric since the beginning of there being ethnicities. It happened in Asia and it happened in Europe, nations prospered, naturally they developed a taste for their success and considered outsiders to be barbarians. It was only very recently that the civil rights movement occured in US "invalidating" race. Though race is not actually invalidated to any level, it's just condemned in the public sphere, but you meet a good number of individuals, you will still find racism. But even further than that, there is a notion of "colorblindness" which ideally would mean that different races all should be looked at the same. My opinion is that would be ideal, but it doesn't really fit with the context of what is going on. If you adopt a colorblind view, that doesn't mean a lot of other people aren't racist and that racist things don't happen. So what you get among some white people in America this sense that "civil rights happened, it's all good". So depending on the person, when they hear things on the news about "black guy got shot by a cop" they immediately say "everyone has civil rights, this is race-baiting, the media is doing this on purpose to rile people up and it's hypocritical". But there's also the chance that the motivation or lack of consideration for victims were actually race-related, as "colorblind idealists" some may become blind to this possiblity being very likely. So there's one problem there. Besides that, there are affirmative action programs based upon race (may or may not need to be based on race that's a different topic), so any white person who hears this would say "this is blatant hypocrisy and the system or racist for supporting miniorites" while the minorities will be shouting "this system is clearly all for the whites". Then there are other logistical problems that people have in general with welfare programs and entitlements, that is more individualist stuff but it affects the same groups.
Point is, many whites will say they are not racist even though at the same time they don't seem to be helping out minorities with some of the above mentioned presumptions such as "race-baiting" where everything is assumed "fine" when there is still racism in existence. So it's not like everyone is a white supremacist, fact of that matter is, the understanding of race relations is misled in many cases and nobody has the same perspective. Maybe they are influenced by secret white supremacist elites. Then there are actual people who will go out directly and say that they think certain cultures are inferior. But I mustn't forget that people like that are also part of the country as well because where I live most people are liberal and a good portion of them "don't care about race" and thus may be misled into thinking racial tensions are imaginary and media produced. This perspective depending on the specific case, leads many people to just say that these people are just closet racists and in denial when they claim to not be racist. Which I think is also misleading because culture portrays the civil rights movement as a massive success and if you don't see the racial tensions in certain areas first hand you don't really know what to think and you may just become skeptical of these things even existing when they do appear.
 

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Would it be okay to ask what would be underlying his racism?
(Not my comment and not this guy's response, but I have some insight here.) Often times internalized prejudice comes from environmental stimuli. By which I mean, they likely heard a lot of negative things about white America growing up from family, friends, neighbors, teachers, TV, etc and as time goes on he has subconsciously sought out validation for those claims. On a conscious level they may realize that these feeling are not necessarily founded in reality, but because an instinctual association has been formed between white america and negative stereotypes of that part of society, he still holds those prejudices regardless of his logical predisposition against them. It's a tricky thing to overcome. I wish him the best of luck. Certain members of my family are openly racist, and if you've been hearing that stuff since you were a little kid, it's often able to stick itself to some dark corner of your mind only to pop up when you least expect it. Again, best of luck. It's not impossible to open people up to new ideas, but it's always an uphill battle.
 

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Well perhaps he also needs to understand the nature of these things, that though the outcome can be pretty rough that it is not necessarily out of ill intent.
UnderstandingPrejudice.org: The Psychology of Prejudice

That he needs to learn the difference between acceptance and giving up.
Because you can accept that these are things are but we don't accept them, I think that's been a struggle for myself.
It's hard to accept a reality in which a lot of this shit exists and blatantly so, it is frustrating but you consider that getting angry doesn't help and need to take control that caring is good but wearing yourself over nothing isn't good either.
For me what I do when I get sucked into a hole over issues like that is that I make myself focus on how happy people are despite all that, that I reflect on the history with how much has changed for the better in some places.
Like after seeing some views about cat calling i was pretty riled up once but then I went out and saw that despite the culture in which most women will be subject to varying degrees of sexual violence, it doesn't mean that they can't have fulfilling lives.
That people aren't to be defined by the terrible things of others and that we need to make space for ourselves to get away from all that shit.

ramble ramble ramble XD
Is a tough gig accepting things though, I'm still persistantly shocked at the level of inhumanity and ignorance that is spouted through apathy and indifference.So

the advice may be to show him the good side of things, where people are happy and changing things for the better, that people aren't taking things sitting down, emphasis of the good aspects in spite of the bad, because they're just as real and got to accept them in one's frame of mind too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
(Not my comment and not this guy's response, but I have some insight here.) Often times internalized prejudice comes from environmental stimuli. By which I mean, they likely heard a lot of negative things about white America growing up from family, friends, neighbors, teachers, TV, etc and as time goes on he has subconsciously sought out validation for those claims. On a conscious level they may realize that these feeling are not necessarily founded in reality, but because an instinctual association has been formed between white america and negative stereotypes of that part of society, he still holds those prejudices regardless of his logical predisposition against them. It's a tricky thing to overcome. I wish him the best of luck. Certain members of my family are openly racist, and if you've been hearing that stuff since you were a little kid, it's often able to stick itself to some dark corner of your mind only to pop up when you least expect it. Again, best of luck. It's not impossible to open people up to new ideas, but it's always an uphill battle.
Great insight! He does have a logical predisposition against his own racism, and to make my point clear, he's stated he has the knowledge to be a kind person (but his anger prevents him from doing so). Would you be shocked to hear he's only been this way for 2-3 years? Before those years, he was a cool and stable guy (known for having a monk-like demeanor). His first love was a white female! Can you believe it?
I have hope in him, though. When do we typically hear of racist who wants to overcome it? I believe he deserves the help/advice.

Could you go deeper into what you said about the logical disposition and the dark instinctual association?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Well perhaps he also needs to understand the nature of these things, that though the outcome can be pretty rough that it is not necessarily out of ill intent.
UnderstandingPrejudice.org: The Psychology of Prejudice

That he needs to learn the difference between acceptance and giving up.
Because you can accept that these are things are but we don't accept them, I think that's been a struggle for myself.
It's hard to accept a reality in which a lot of this shit exists and blatantly so, it is frustrating but you consider that getting angry doesn't help and need to take control that caring is good but wearing yourself over nothing isn't good either.
For me what I do when I get sucked into a hole over issues like that is that I make myself focus on how happy people are despite all that, that I reflect on the history with how much has changed for the better in some places.
Like after seeing some views about cat calling i was pretty riled up once but then I went out and saw that despite the culture in which most women will be subject to varying degrees of sexual violence, it doesn't mean that they can't have fulfilling lives.
That people aren't to be defined by the terrible things of others and that we need to make space for ourselves to get away from all that shit.

ramble ramble ramble XD
Is a tough gig accepting things though, I'm still persistantly shocked at the level of inhumanity and ignorance that is spouted through apathy and indifference.So

the advice may be to show him the good side of things, where people are happy and changing things for the better, that people aren't taking things sitting down, emphasis of the good aspects in spite of the bad, because they're just as real and got to accept them in one's frame of mind too.
Thank you for replying to this thread. I appreciate it. You spoke about the difference between giving up and accepting issues like race and sexual violence/abuse toward women. Could you could deeper into it?
Have you come across the 5 or 7 stages of grief? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it with regard to this thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Basically, people have been ethnocentric since the beginning of there being ethnicities. It happened in Asia and it happened in Europe, nations prospered, naturally they developed a taste for their success and considered outsiders to be barbarians. It was only very recently that the civil rights movement occured in US "invalidating" race. Though race is not actually invalidated to any level, it's just condemned in the public sphere, but you meet a good number of individuals, you will still find racism. But even further than that, there is a notion of "colorblindness" which ideally would mean that different races all should be looked at the same. My opinion is that would be ideal, but it doesn't really fit with the context of what is going on. If you adopt a colorblind view, that doesn't mean a lot of other people aren't racist and that racist things don't happen. So what you get among some white people in America this sense that "civil rights happened, it's all good". So depending on the person, when they hear things on the news about "black guy got shot by a cop" they immediately say "everyone has civil rights, this is race-baiting, the media is doing this on purpose to rile people up and it's hypocritical". But there's also the chance that the motivation or lack of consideration for victims were actually race-related, as "colorblind idealists" some may become blind to this possiblity being very likely. So there's one problem there. Besides that, there are affirmative action programs based upon race (may or may not need to be based on race that's a different topic), so any white person who hears this would say "this is blatant hypocrisy and the system or racist for supporting miniorites" while the minorities will be shouting "this system is clearly all for the whites". Then there are other logistical problems that people have in general with welfare programs and entitlements, that is more individualist stuff but it affects the same groups.
Point is, many whites will say they are not racist even though at the same time they don't seem to be helping out minorities with some of the above mentioned presumptions such as "race-baiting" where everything is assumed "fine" when there is still racism in existence. So it's not like everyone is a white supremacist, fact of that matter is, the understanding of race relations is misled in many cases and nobody has the same perspective. Maybe they are influenced by secret white supremacist elites. Then there are actual people who will go out directly and say that they think certain cultures are inferior. But I mustn't forget that people like that are also part of the country as well because where I live most people are liberal and a good portion of them "don't care about race" and thus may be misled into thinking racial tensions are imaginary and media produced. This perspective depending on the specific case, leads many people to just say that these people are just closet racists and in denial when they claim to not be racist. Which I think is also misleading because culture portrays the civil rights movement as a massive success and if you don't see the racial tensions in certain areas first hand you don't really know what to think and you may just become skeptical of these things even existing when they do appear.

Thank you for your overview on the phenomenon of race, and how it can be in nature so relative to one’s perspective and place in the U.S. Perhaps it’s this ambiguity that’s unconsciously bothering him.

How would you deal with this issue, say, if you were my friend? While it’s difficult to do so, I’m curious.
Like I said in the initial post, hated does nothing but destroy oneself. It’s eats away one’s peace. He wants peace, and knows better than to be a racist given what you said, but yet he has his “anger” toward White America, nonetheless.

It’s his tricky situation that worries and saddens me.
 

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Thank you for replying to this thread. I appreciate it. You spoke about the difference between giving up and accepting issues like race and sexual violence/abuse toward women. Could you could deeper into it?
Have you come across the 5 or 7 stages of grief? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it with regard to this thread.
Well I think when people talk about accepting reality what pisses me off is that it comes off as, we should tolerate and be okay with the way things up, they sound like they are apathetic to the problem that one should not care because "hey what can I do?".
That sort of thinking I struggle to align with, not giving a fuck and being apathetic seems like being dead inside, being a husk of a human being devoid of the typical human links we make.
Not that a person has to feel strongly for everything, it's not even about the feeling but basic morals as a human being acknowledging that things are wrong and not rationalizing them away.
I simply can't accept it as a okay standard, though I can accept that it exist and why it exists, because denying what is, only amounts to unnecessary mental distress.
It's what causes people a lot of problem in a lot of areas is that they refuse to accept what is, so for me I like to try and focus on concrete things, what can i say exists and then tell myself that I need to accept it's existence to best be able to understand it and challenge it.

I don't know if I went through the stages of grief it's more like I was pissed off then I didn't want to be pissed off anymore, it's exhausting, so instead I try and consciously direct myself to points that challenge my cynical point of view at that time.
Because its easy to ignore things when you only zoom in for one perspective, but it's not a whole perspective.

It was actually racism that broke me down and made me confront that I have anger, from this very site.
I struggled to accept that people couldn't acknowledge systemic racism and regardless of the outcome of the Michael Brown case, that the way people approached it was clear to me one of prejudiced outlook that I couldn't fathom as having a legitimate basis except out of naivety and ignorance.
It consumed my mind for a few weeks, I was just obsessed with thinking about how fucked up it is someone gets killed and people defend it. I think it was normal response for anyone to be angry with that sort of thing, just as it feels good to witness acts of kindness, its distressing to witness the opposite.
So for me I try and balance it out, I don't want to shy away from the bad parts that exist, but in acknowledging them I try and keep my focus on what good there is.
It's straight forward but not easy because it requires becoming aware of your internal state, stopping, questioning yourself and consciously deciding the sorts of thoughts you want to have, or at least criticize the negative thoughts you're currently having.

For me the positive outlook I have is that change is inevitable, there will always people fighting for change because people recognize inequalities and injustice, just as there's always those calling for change there's always those resisting in defense of a status quo. To me to look at history is that progress isn't linear, you can make some gains just as you can make some losses and back and forth, make a lot of gains you get cultural backlash, but in time things can change significantly.

I think for me i remember there being a black director or something and he emphasized that the anger in part comes from a lack of control for him, a lack of control for justice and so on, so for him he took his work to carve out a space in which it's his zone. That people can't touch him the way they can outside that context and perhaps another way of it, not only to get in a zone mentally thats positive but to make a physical manfestation of a space to exist without the concerns of society and it's ways. YOu can't stay too long amongst it without going crazy and burn out.
 

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He recognizes his racism is problematic and yet he does not seem open to taking individual experiences into account and changing his viewpoint. I hate to be so blunt but perhaps this is not a problem you can or should solve. Perhaps he needs to process this on his own and decide on his own to take in these new possibilities and adjust his worldview accordingly. Maybe his healing is his business only.
 

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Thank you for your overview on the phenomenon of race, and how it can be in nature so relative to one’s perspective and place in the U.S. Perhaps it’s this ambiguity that’s unconsciously bothering him.

How would you deal with this issue, say, if you were my friend? While it’s difficult to do so, I’m curious.
Like I said in the initial post, hated does nothing but destroy oneself. It’s eats away one’s peace. He wants peace, and knows better than to be a racist given what you said, but yet he has his “anger” toward White America, nonetheless.

It’s his tricky situation that worries and saddens me.
That is my understanding of it as a white male A'murican.
I was just assuming he thinks whites in America were all belligerents and anti-minorities. I just wanted to show that this is not really accurate and it offends people like me who don't want to be grouped into that, but I get annoyed because I get grouped into that anyway then I don't want to help other people. But anyway, assuming he believes that everyone has "bad intentions" I thought it would be helpful to try to say this is part hate but not all hate but also ignorance or apathy that causes ignorant beliefs. That doesn't really change the outcome much but the intentions are not all horrible for everyone, I thought this would help in some way, helping him understand the mindset that people have is not always informed and is sometimes ignorant rather than purposefully hateful.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
He recognizes his racism is problematic and yet he does not seem open to taking individual experiences into account and changing his viewpoint. I hate to be so blunt but perhaps this is not a problem you can or should solve. Perhaps he needs to process this on his own and decide on his own to take in these new possibilities and adjust his worldview accordingly.

Sorry to have made it unclear, but he's against his racism, and has taken into account personal experiences, etc., and all else necessary to have an informed perspective on the issue of race. Really, he's tormented over his "anger" toward White America. He doesn't how to approach this powerful emotion and calm it such that he able to live happily again without being prejudicial.
 

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Sorry to have made it unclear, but he's against his racism, and has taken into account personal experiences, etc., and all else necessary to have an informed perspective on the issue of race. Really, he's tormented over his "anger" toward White America. He doesn't how to approach this powerful emotion and calm it such that he able to live happily again without being prejudicial.
That is helpful information. Perhaps this problem is actually about regulating emotions and less about what the problem seems like on the surface.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That is my understanding of it as a white male A'murican.
I was just assuming he thinks whites in America were all belligerents and anti-minorities. I just wanted to show that this is not really accurate and it offends people like me who don't want to be grouped into that, but I get annoyed because I get grouped into that anyway then I don't want to help other people. But anyway, assuming he believes that everyone has "bad intentions" I thought it would be helpful to try to say this is part hate but not all hate but also ignorance or apathy that causes ignorant beliefs. That doesn't really change the outcome much but the intentions are not all horrible for everyone, I thought this would help in some way, helping him understand the mindset that people have is not always informed and is sometimes ignorant rather than purposefully hateful.

I appreciate your perspective, and understand the annoyance of being grouped without regard for individuality. For example, I'm Hispanic/Latino, yet deep down inside of myself, I feel "raceless". Given how I was raised (and that Hispanic/Latino culture was non-existent in my home), I feel like a mind in a body that just happens to be perceived a particular race. Does that make sense?

Since he's a feeler like myself, he's disposed to allow his emotions drive him mad. Like I told another person in this thread, I believe he's tormented over the emotion of "anger" he has toward White America than he does with White America itself.
 

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He's angry because they are middle class and comfortable? That's called envy.
 
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