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Discussion Starter #1
So I just found out from my son (23) that he's typed as INTP, probably . I'm slightly boggled, and also slightly going 'ohhhhhhh . . . . !!' I'm very INTJ and I've always had this weird elusive feeling that I got him, and yet at the same time I didn't get him at all. He's like this amiable, baffling but friendly black box to me. And I don't think I know any INTPs at all, in real life.

So anyone out there with INTJ parents, siblings, formative people . . . any advice? Thoughts, observations, experience, things to watch for? I really like him, don't want to set up some kind of alienation dynamic that would be hard to break.

I've already discovered that even though he's probably magnitudes smarter than me, it's better overall really if we don't try to get too serious about any 'reasoning' types of conversations. Both of us just get so frustrated and pissed off at each other's process if we take the stuff seriously. I've been watching myself for the not-turning-into-the-mega-logician-bully thing since he was much much younger than this, because of it.

Other than that though, I'm a bit lost.

Edit to add: prior to this, I'd always guessed him as one of two things. Either another INTJ but really hooperhypersuper cerebral and abstract, or an INFP with unusually lucid thought paths. The INFP was more relating to his emotional life than the way he actually thinks though.
 

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Yes! Lots of advice I could give on this subject. My father is an INTJ, my twin sister is an INTJ, my younger brother is an INTJ. I was surrounded by INTJs growing up, and watched them all be "immediately successful" in their own ways, while I followed my own path.

The biggest advice I could offer is simple: don't pressure him to do anything. The INTP matures differently than the INTJ, and we all tend to "realize ourselves" before taking action. We feel it is mandatory to know the truth in ourselves before we can really apply our talents. The INTJ tends to begin performing actions from an earlier age, and often will get a college education (often Masters or PhD) before the INTP is comfortable even in entering college.

Now of course advising your son and pressuring him are two different things, but pressure is a massive turn-off to INTPs, and we tend to interpret it as manipulation (even when it's not).

Any other specific questions? I have a lot of experience here :)
 

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@Revenant :

TOP answer, bravo! I have no INTJ relatives that I can think of, but that hits the nail on the head in terms of how the INTP path is forged.

I'm starting university in September. I'll be 25 years old and couldn't be happier with the way my life has panned out so far, even if I am several years 'behind' my friends. I still know, with frankness, that I'm far more intelligent than most of my degree-educated buddies, so I don't give a fuck about what was expected of me in my younger years when I wasn't ready.
@lilysocks : My dad scored ENTJ when I made him take one of the more complex online MBTI tests, so maybe he's kind of similar to you? I don't really have a strong emotional, or even mental, connection with him, but we both thoroughly respect each other's intelligence, which brings about a good level of trust and understanding for the conviction of our own choices. It's a very laissez-faire relationship. I'm happiest because my dad (and my mum) have taken a step back and let me do what I want. At a certain point I was a bit pissed off that they hadn't pushed me a bit harder to achieve something earlier on, but now I'm SO much happier than I was left to my own bumbling ways to figure my own self out. My whole life is my own making, and it feels brilliant.

I'll parrot what's already been said in the post above - just leave your INTP son to develop in his own way. Encourage and motivate him, but do not ever push or coerce. But, do make sure he has a sort of rounded life, so he can build up a better level of experience to complete himself as a person more quickly. If he spends all his time in his room on the Internet, or just mopes around the house like a miserable little shit, he'll never realise his potential. Don't force him to make any major, life-changing, long-term decisions, but do take a strong stance on how he goes about his more typical everyday things. Don't let him get stuck in a rut.

It may help if you conveniently and covertly put things under his nose that may (or may not) fascinate him enough to take action. For example I, personally, stumbled into the realisation that the world is a big, beautiful and amazing place full of wonder and amazement, then suddenly I'd read a handful of travel books, watched a few of the more awe-inspiring documentaries, then a few months later had my bags packed and went travelling and didn't come home for two years. That was when I too was 23, and it turned me into the person I am today, happy with every decision I made, even the bad ones, as they were all part of my own path. I'm now starting university, at the point where I feel most ready, not just when others wanted me to go.

Never ever directly force him into anything. It needs to be subtle, so he feels like he discovered it himself. It's up to you to figure out how to do that without it backfiring. INTPs can get interested in pretty much anything, but only when it takes their fancy. So give him time.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The biggest advice I could offer is simple: don't pressure him to do anything.
Thank you. That's uber-validating. You can't imagine, but I'll probably come back and help you with that later on :D

but it's pretty late here, and certainly too late to go into details right now. i will say though, that i could use some help with navigating that fine line between not pressuring, and outright neglect. i know he's very very much a person who does all his own processing - lifelong pattern which i've been boggled by but really enjoyed, whereby he silently goes off in some corner of his own mind, completes an entire development chunk in complete invisibility, and then hey-presto! produces it whole and complete long after the world's 'given up' on him or labelled him as 'delayed' in that zone. he's said interesting things - now and then, very sparingly - about the way his own mind tends to work, which have helped.

the thing is, i do believe in leaving him alone and letting him do his own thing. i feel kind of like the person standing outside some dark cave, now and then calling out 'you doing okay in there?' and occasionally handing in an icepick, a rubber band, a grilled-cheese sandwich . . . while the pointy-headed genius builds his own particle accelerator or discovers the key to eternal life. but i don't, ever, want him to think i don't care or i'm not engaged or i wouldn't provide him with whatever things he might need on the way.

and i do worry taht being such an unusual person, and very quiet, he is being left alone to do a pretty huge thing with only his own resources. so i'd help if i could, but i think it would help in itself if i just knew a little about what kinds of help it would be good to offer. i've been keeping pretty quiet, aside from saying 'go to college anyway and do whatever interests you, don't worry about the Final Product', writing the cheques and being friendly. but he's so very self-sufficient and so used to being like that from way back in his life, i'm sure there must be some things that might be useful for him, if only he knew enough about himself or whatever to ask for them. or even, sigh, to realise that they CAN be asked for.

it's really neat that you named that 'late, silent, full-product bloomer' thing that he does, right out of the box.
 
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But, do make sure he has a sort of rounded life, so he can build up a better level of experience to complete himself as a person more quickly. If he spends all his time in his room on the Internet, or just mopes around the house like a miserable little shit, he'll never realise his potential.
thank you. yes, this is pretty much what i must have had at the top of my mind. i would, only not knowing a darned thing about him really - by this age - i'm blank as a wall as to what to put in front of him and how to do it. also a bit blank on the idea of taking a 'strong stand' with someone who's such a master at the gandhi retreat, without having it cross over into pressure. you know, look vague, mumble something, turn into smoke and float backwards. interpersonally, he's like trying to pick up a cat that's determined not to be picked up and equally determined not to scratch you.

hee. i had phone calls from a succession of teachers all through high school - just told him about this a few years ago. making my life a misery and a burden to me, naturally (he thought that was funny). complaining simultaneously that he was the 'sweetest' kid that they worked with that year, but that he did sweet fuck all in class. and then reporting back later that they couldn't get to grips with him either. it's funny and neat and sincerely really impressive, in a marvel-at-the-master type way. but it's like my tendency to turn everything into a theory and a structure and a big picture if i don't watch myself. i don't think it's healthy to let it run completely unchecked to the point where it starts to dig his own grave for him.

okay. bed, me. thanks for the conversation. thanks for the chance to even talk about him to people who seem to get all the mystifying, baffling, so-neat things about him most people seem to have trouble grasping!
 
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but he's so very self-sufficient and so used to being like that from way back in his life, i'm sure there must be some things that might be useful for him, if only he knew enough about himself or whatever to ask for them. or even, sigh, to realise that they CAN be asked for.
INTPs tend to not have much need for consumerism our outer-worldly things, meaning that by providing 'stuff' or 'things' you aren't necessarily doing him a favor or should expect the same heartfelt excitement most people will show when receiving 'nonsense'. Still, here I'm mostly just taking myself as reference; I live a very basic life and even a higher income wouldn't change anything about it. INTP's tend to know what they really need and what serves no purpose but consumerist instant gratification.

What they work on in their heads are typically vast philosophical frameworks to which there are no answers but only impressions, opinions and conclusions drawn from experience. In my case, I only tend to chat with people about these things of who I believe they actually understand me and can follow me. So to me the answers I am seeking isn't anything I can in fact ask for, for everyone has to walk their own road and they at best (if even that) will only ever overlap partially. The conclusion at the very end will hopefully be the same though - on an abstract level anyway.

In fact

and occasionally handing in an icepick, a rubber band, a grilled-cheese sandwich . . .
May be very well the best you can do and I'm certain he'll appreciate it, although, yet again, he won't necessarily show it as one would expect. Such things do not go completely uncredited, though, even if they don't show their appreciation. Unless he's still young (ignorant/spoiled) to the point he's not learned to appreciate them yet. Time will typically solve that, though.

My (educational) career is subpar as well and as far as College and University is concerned (in Germany) I consider it absolute useless crap. People who can learn will succeed, as a result you have plenty of people studying stuff they have no innate talent for but will get a scrap of paper. That isn't to say there aren't people out there as well who really love and understand what they're studying but in my experience that's the minority. Additionally, in my experience many subjects contain stuff that is completely irrelevant to my interest (e.g Psychology, I don't care too much about neuroscience or physical brain structure, hormones, enzymes etc.) and as such could never make it through such classes because I can't sit through stuff that is irrelevant to my interests. Still, luckily I don't have to anyway :tongue:

Very bottom line being, INTP's probably see dozen of reasons why it's retarded to partake in this society's rat race of 'success', for that success isn't what they define as success at all. - They'll make their way eventually and participate as much as they deem necessary but are likely to never stretch themselves out too far or 'give it their all' rather than remaining at a comfortable 'mediocrity' that doesn't typically take them any effort whatsoever to maintain. Although I am sure that if they do in fact get in a field where they naturally excel in they have good opportunities to climb the career latter, but even then they may not have any interest in doing so.
 

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My father is an INTJ. If you have any specific questions please ask away, I am more than willing to give any helpful advice.

I don't really have anything to add at the moment though, as the above posters have covered the basics pretty well.

Actually I have one thing to say. When helping your INTP son with something, DO NOT get impatient and just do it yourself! This will teach him that analysis is wrong, and it will suppress his Ti/Ne. INTPs do things extremely slowly(or most things), and INTJs can get frustrated with them, as they are doers.
My father used to help me with math, and I would sit there and try to figure it out(always second guessing myself at every step), and he would get impatient and tell me the answer, and then go on a ten minute rant about how easy math was.
This taught me to not even try, because eventually somebody would just tell me the answer and I wouldn't have to put in any effort. It affected me a lot, and it has taken me a long time to get out of the habit.

If you and your son share some of the same interests, try to have discussions with him. If you discover some new thing, or come up with a new theory, present it to him. Have philosophical debates with him. Discuss science.
This may seem like a small thing, but since INTJs and INTPs work together so well intellectually, your son will love it(I mean really love it), because it is giving him new information to think about.
If you do this enough, you will find that your son will come to you with questions, concerns, ideas, because he respects your mind. I'm sure he already does, but it will increase.
I love having discussions with my dad, as he has always had an open mind, a love for knowledge, and he always challenges me on my views(not in a bad way, but stimulating).
I have honestly come to respect him the most out of anybody because of this. We may not get along at other times, but discussing things with him is a real joy. I feel comfortable asking him any question I may have, which is not something I can say about anybody else.

That's it for now. :kitteh:
 

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gee, i wish i didn't have to go to work. you guys have all got me thinking, and there's so much i'm going all squeak-and-giggle about. yes! yes! that's him! my wheels are turning so hard i can't produce all the questions or comments just yet. but thoughts:
@that, yes i get that. my dad did that kind of thing to my older brother, so i'm forewarned. besides, it's always been obvious that if you interrupt or disrupt him he loses it all, so i don't. always did have to just let him do his own thing in his own way, and celebrate the results.
@Erbse, you gave me another little mushy-recognition attack. no, i didn't mean 'stuff' things . . . the kid who still owes me 6 years' worth of birthday-and-xmas-present requests and just grins every time i remind him of it. and the vast philosophical frameworks, yeesh . . . . used to lie awake at 6 years old speculating with me about infinity. and other stuff. i miss that. he got more and more silent as he grew older, and i've told him that these days i'm still really interested and love it when we do have conversations, but i don't feel like i know him well enough anymore to even know how to start one. i miss it, but i get it. i have at least one feeler friend who i know worries about him, me and the whole dynamic, but i do kind of struggle to explain to others that just because he ain't talking much doesn't mean that there's something wrong.

@ everyone who gave input relating to pressure: thanks. i know. at best, trying to 'push' him anywhere was always like pushing one end of a piece of string. i'm not a pusher by nature anyway and never felt like i'd have a clue as to how to push someone like him responsibly or helpfully. so it's relieving to know i was right in my feeling that it was better to just leave that the way that it is between us. it's a bit odd to tothers though. two introverts in the same house who are okay with each other and with being introverted can produce a LOT of silence :D
@that. Discuss science.

ouch. since i'm an i.t. person and he's leaning that way and also spreading over towards cognitive/neurosciences, you'd think that would be easy. but he's a whole order of things smarter than me and was miles over my head a dozen years ago (try being followed all over the house by an earnest excited 10 yo who's just read Stephen Hawking and has a million wormhole/black hole theories and jokes and speculations to share with you). we both know this and coexist with it acceptingly enough. where we struggle is that we can't talk, because the only way for those gaps to get bridged would be from his side, with him explaining at least some rudiments of it to me. i am not at all given to the 'that's just stupid' rudeness to things that i don't understand, but all the same, i know he runs into that pressure band of tring to get things organized in his head for transmission over to someone else, and it defeats him. too many questions frustrate or demoralize him, i know.

i guess we'll work on it. i do at least have some new stuff to think about now.
 

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Great thread. lilysocks, it seems like youre doing a fantastic job as a mother. The INTPs have given some sound advice and insight here so i'll just add these nuggets:

1. To him, silence is golden. dont worry too much about him being a caveman. Thats where he finds solace from the noise of the world, and thats where his thoughts are the most clear. not only is he pondering the world he lives in, but he's figuring himself out and where he fits in all this madness.

2. You want him to know that he can ask for help. i would want to explicitly hear those words come out of your mouth. i would appreciate it so much. maybe just sit down on his bed (on his turf/cave) and say "im here for you. you need anything on this journey of yours..just let me know. youll have to work hard at times to get what you want in life but im willing to help you where i can because i love you." man, gives me goose pimples to think about it. he'll really feel that love from you via his Fe.

3. He will become more rounded out with time. even though i love nothing more than silence in my cave for days, i have to work, exercise, see family/friends, etc. he may seem one-dimensional now, but will be less so in 10 years. still an INTP, but more versatile if you will.

best wishes...i think youre doing great so far
 

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@lilysocks Keep in mind that a 23 year old INTP is still a kid in many ways. The natural INTP tendencies are to essentially ignore social situations (including their own family's), which strongly stunts their emotional growth. (I don't think I hit a "normal 23 year old" emotional maturity until I was 26 or 27ish, personally.) At 23, I was probably the equivalent to a 16 or 17 year old in or just out of high school, trying to figure a lot of stuff out. (But I wasn't trying to figure any of those emotional questions out lol.)

From MBTI theory I think our emotional development (or lack thereof) has to do with our inferior Fe: a function in its very core that focuses on "the group" of people, and we avoid most groups at all costs--not to mention its inferior preference. The INTJ's Fi is much more of a "one on one" function, and it is your tertiary function. (It should also be noted, the INTP will also strongly reject Fi logic [fortunately the INTJ usually uses Ni-Te logic]. If an emotional scenario comes up in which you have an opportunity to emotionally relate, keep using your Ni-Te. Strong Fi users (INFPs and ISFPs primarily) in his life may be subconsciously viewed as inferior.)

You should also know that INTPs come off as much more intelligent than we often are. (I'm sure I do lol.) This is simply due to our inability to turn off the Ti-Ne processing. Don't let his "higher or perceived higher" intelligence turn you away. The best way to engage him, is to ask "what subjects are you currently studying?" and, if you know what he was before, "so you got bored of (X)?" He may respond curtly which is fine, because that gives you ammo to go look at some basic theories (if you're interested) regarding one of those subjects.

If you're truly interested, you can then ask him some questions about it. (If you're not interested though, don't feign it; the Ti-Ne is a huge manipulation detector that often starts buzzing even when other people don't have ill intentions in mind [or are not trying to manipulate at all!].) That's one thing I've had to struggle with: recognizing that people who engage me in small talk and/or trying to discuss my interests (when they are clearly not interested) aren't trying to manipulate themselves into being a friend of mine (my INFP mother did this to me all the time), they are just trying express some level of appreciation in a way I don't relate to.

Oh, and one more thing. If you ask "what are you currently studying," and he says something that sounds boring, tell him that. Say, "wow that sounds like the most boring shit I've ever heard of." And see what he says. I promise you, that may get him talking faster than about anything else you can say! (Otherwise, he'll just laugh. He won't hold that against you at all.)
 

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Actually I have one thing to say. When helping your INTP son with something, DO NOT get impatient and just do it yourself! This will teach him that analysis is wrong, and it will suppress his Ti/Ne. INTPs do things extremely slowly(or most things), and INTJs can get frustrated with them, as they are doers.
My father used to help me with math, and I would sit there and try to figure it out(always second guessing myself at every step), and he would get impatient and tell me the answer, and then go on a ten minute rant about how easy math was.
This taught me to not even try, because eventually somebody would just tell me the answer and I wouldn't have to put in any effort. It affected me a lot, and it has taken me a long time to get out of the habit.
YES! I had this with..everyone around me. When I was doing something I'd start by analyzing the situation, which led to other people getting impatient and doing it for me.

It didn't teach me to do things, but rather it taught me to manipulate people into doing my work for me...:proud:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
You should also know that INTPs come off as much more intelligent than we often are.
yeah, this is a problem. but since i don't know whether i know other intp people in real life and it would be awfully rude to grill any that i did meet about their real versus their apparent intelligence, it was something i threw my hands up about determining years ago. i realise this makes me sound like one of those pushy parents, but there were enough indicators throughout his earlier life that it might be necessary to find out for the sake of placing him somewhere enjoyable to him, or at the very least for knowing how/when/what to offer in the way of 'temptation'. suicidal boredom in 'regular' classrooms being just one of them.

from my perspective, it's really been a matter from earliest teens of basically just giving up on all that, and letting him drive. thing is, i relate to the poster here who said it wasn't easy in his early twenties to avoid blaming his parents for not 'pushing' him more, because it does seem to be an age where all your peers are focused in some direction (misguidedly or not), and you're just adrift. i've felt the same way at times and had to reason myself down from it: the sudden sense that maybe your entire parenting strategy has been horribly wrong and you've just helpfully steered your poor kid into a ditch.
"so you got bored of (X)?"
hee. here's a typical conversation between me and other parents of like-aged-but-not-like-minded kids:

them: so how's yogi?
me: lovely. don't see him much, but he's great.
them: oh, he moved out?
me: nono, he lives right here with me. god knows what would happen if he moved out. probably drift away forever without even noticing it.
them: huh. *awkward moment while they recalibrate with the latest jerry springer or oprah show* so, um . . . he's still at college?
me: community college, yup.
them: well, that's healthy at least. what's he taking?
me: um? this year?
them: why? what was he taking before?
me: well, he registered in sort of comp-sci-ish stuff. i told him to just go and sign up, then pick whatever looked good to him. lot of programming things.
them: oh good good. there are good jobs in that.
me: gmph. you know that noise you make where you see no point in what someone's said but don't want to be rude.
them: so he's going to be a programmer?
me: well, no. he seems to be into psychology right now.
them: ... so a counsellor then.
me: no . . . he's just *taking* the courses. he's sort of talking generally about neuro or cognitive sciences, but who knows.
them: that's a coming field too.
me: *patient* you have to understand, he's not your typical kid. he MIGHT end up in that field, or programming. i'm perfectly prepared to find myself suddenly paying for an advanced master's in russian architecture though. he just does whatever's interesting. i've told him to at least try to get the degree out of the way by the time he's 30, because past that age i probably do want him out of the house. he's great.
them: *sudden spate of eloquence about the career waiting for their own same-age kid*

sigh. he is very lovely. he's hugely enjoyable. i find him incredibly neat, but it makes for interesting intersections with Other People.
 

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@lilysocks - When I initially read the comment about wishing his parents were more pushy, I agreed on some level. But then looking back I have to realize that I never accepted their pushes in the first place. That I in fact completely rejected them on many occasions. A perfect example:

I got married at the age of 19.
What I remember: My parents were neutral to the engagement. I told them I was getting married, and didn't ask their advice. I don't remember talking with my grandparents or others about it.

What actually happened:
My parents advised me to wait, as I was young (and my soon to be wife had quite a few issues she should have dealt with first). My grandparents begged me (literally, my grandmother got on her knees to ask that I wait) and strongly advised against me marrying her. Unfortunately I didn't remember this until over a decade later when my grandmother actually told me and recounted the situation herself.

This may seem like an abstract example, but it really is an accurate (if extreme) one. Once an INTP has built up a framework of reason and logic, it's hard to derail it without solid logic. If you need to "push" the INTP in a direction, you should do so with a lot of potentialities presented to him. A plethora of probable outcomes to events, but never a "if you do (or don't do) this, then this will happen."

(Okay I'm rambling a bit, hopefully some of that info will be helpful.)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
This may seem like an abstract example, but it really is an accurate (if extreme) one. Once an INTP has built up a framework of reason and logic, it's hard to derail it without solid logic.
i've noticed that mine is very protective of his framework too. i relate it somewhat to the emotional youngness, whether that's wrong or right i don't know. he finds it really mortifying to be corrected, and it seems to really rattle him. so once he's built something up, he keeps quiet about it. i do understand it - intj has some of the same kinds of struggles with other people just not getting what we're thinking about, and putting us on the spot. but it's difficult to know how to do two things, once the psychological reflex has taken hold as a pattern. you can't see what the logic is, so you can't help even with the sensitive kinds of reality check that open up other thought paths to an intp without violating their self-concept.
and you can't untangle what's gone into building the defensiveness either.

i keep telling him (well, every six months or so :wink:) that my non-intervention isn't neglect. just so's he'll know. he seems to take it well, and i guess i'm adjusted to the idea that that's about as good as it gets with him. and just arriving at it is a fairly neat kind of accomplishment.
 

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i've noticed that mine is very protective of his framework too. i relate it somewhat to the emotional youngness, whether that's wrong or right i don't know. he finds it really mortifying to be corrected, and it seems to really rattle him.
They key here is not to ever correct, but to offer a potential alternative. (Unless of course it's a concrete item: the definition of a non-abstract word, or a factually statement of a non-abstract occurrence).

From what I can tell, I'd have been lucky to have you as a mother. You seem to be doing everything just right :)
 

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They key here is not to ever correct, but to offer a potential alternative.
oh sure. and i don't. i find it rude as hell in anybody talking to anybody, and that tendency of his to just move backwards from any kind of direct opposition was obvious from way way back in his life. the trouble is, people take their influences from more than one source. and the rest of the world does do this kind of thing, all the time.

between ourselves, i think we fell into this pattern during his later teens as a means of preserving the peace and our longer-term relationship with one another. to be frank, in those years most of his opinions and conclusions were so asinine it wasn't possible to go more than two steps into any conversation before hitting a wall. i recognised the statement that intp's are insanely good at detecting manipulation or falsity in other people, so even just tactfully letting stuff pass was transparent to him. he stopped talking and i stopped initiating, and i went around telling close friends in those years that all i was interested in making sure of was that he'd still talk to me once he was fully grown up.

thing is, i really think it's mission-accomplished on that. i'm permanently alienated from a few family members myself and i really don't get that kind of vibe from him. so i don't think that measure is needed anymore. but we've grown so unfamiliar with one another that it's like trying to manufacture a relationship with a stranger by now. and i suck rocks at the explicit discussion-evoking type of conversation starter. hmmm.

we communicate a lot in very very lateral kinds of injokes. i had a friend in here the other weekend ;-) while i was around the corner getting something he asked my son the usual what-are-you-doing questions that much older people ask kids. and i came back just in time to catch the middle of it. said 'i want to hear about this. carry on, just pretend i'm not here.' had to explain to my friend how when he was a teenager i would intentionally take him to the house of some friends, and try to get them to get even a smidge of information from him. my kid got the giggles just remembering it. he was onto all of us all along, and we knew he was, and he knew we knew he was . . .
 

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Never ever directly force him into anything. It needs to be subtle, so he feels like he discovered it himself. It's up to you to figure out how to do that without it backfiring. INTPs can get interested in pretty much anything, but only when it takes their fancy. So give him time.
yeah you gotta find articles and stuff about it and plant them in places where your intp are sure to find them. If an INTP feels like he is being pressured rather than advised, he'll think of any and every reason why what you've advised is a horrible idea (but 2 years later will come back and do it as if it were his own idea. I say that from experience :)

So just as Moses lost 40 years when he slew the egyptian. When he tried to do things his way and by force. You'll lose a few years if you try to force something on him. (well it's not really you who'll lose the years, but it will be a few years of frustration as you see your good loving idea not being acted upon.
 

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They key here is not to ever correct, but to offer a potential alternative. (Unless of course it's a concrete item: the definition of a non-abstract word, or a factually statement of a non-abstract occurrence).

From what I can tell, I'd have been lucky to have you as a mother. You seem to be doing everything just right :)
To expand on this, the framework (any given) will first have to mature enough before these things are even considered. Only a fundamental correct and working framework will withhold constant tweaks and changes without going on the barricades should new input come along.

When I was around 20ish I had to actually throw my complete world view overboard and start from scrap while perhaps only salvaging tiny bits and parts from the original. If frameworks are too small/rigid they're bound to collapse eventually as reality will find ways to break them, the natural answer to prevent that from happening is to defend them at all costs, possibly on the cost of denying new input completely.

I'd also agree that INTPs aren't often-times as smart as they think they are (including I, obviously :mellow:) but another issue is that our processing seems to be quite the rare kind, meaning we know if someone will understand what we are saying and we do know that majority of people will never understand a word we say because conversation takes place on completely different levels. As such it's only natural to become alienated from the world and people - that however isn't a bad thing but plain reality - nothing to be afraid of but perhaps something to embrace and learn from to bridge the gap. Since it's generally Ti user being on the minority side of the bridge it'd be unreasonable to expect everyone else to 'smarten up', although that'd undoubtedly be the preferred way in our minds.

Outside of online communities such as these there may be one or two people who I think may really get what I'm saying. Most people don't seem to see the principles behind the often-times harsh things I spew, as such I'm a the lunatic within those settings which just makes me sigh heavily and move on with life.
 

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I have an INTJ mom. The biggest problem I've always had is that she would try to push me into doing something when I was younger that I didn't want to or wasn't sure I wanted to do, so then I'd get super stubborn and refuse to work at it at all. Like music for instance. She really wanted me to learn how to play an instrument, because she wished her parents had forced her into learning an instrument. It didn't go over very well. I never practiced, and I still can't play an instrument to this day. When I was even younger I was scared of learning how to ride a bike. I would continually ask for detailed explanations of how to do it. Her response would be that I should just go do it, which made me beyond infuriated. I took that as "I don't care about you enough to explain to you." So I stubbornly resisted and didn't learn how to ride a bike until I was twelve. Of course I was being ridiculous, since it's not easy to explain the science of why riding a bike works to a young child, but I felt I needed that, and I was angry that I wasn't being given time to figure it out, so I dragged it out for years. Same thing with swimming. My mom put me into swimming lessons, but I was scared of water and totally unprepared. She tried to punish me and bribe me with rewards, but again, I just got stubborn and waited years before I figured out how to sort of swim on my own. Pushing me never works. I've got to come to decisions on my own, and it also takes me a long time to understand things. I'm homeschooled, and I can't count the amount of times she'd stomp off all aggravated that I was not understanding, from her perspective, on purpose. That wasn't true. I simply take time to understand things and when people start getting antsy at me I'll get anxious and at that point all mental abilities disappear completely, because I'm being rushed.
 

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I simply take time to understand things and when people start getting antsy at me I'll get anxious and at that point all mental abilities disappear completely, because I'm being rushed.
this is so recognizable it's staggering. i spent an awful lot of my son's earlier life just running interference for him, getting other people to shut up for long enough for him to either synthesize what he'd been told, or figure out what additional questions he had. they never were the questions other people were so sure he was going to ask, so the whole process of being 'taught' anything has always been a minefield of potential frustration for him. if that's intpdom, then intps probably have to do more work thantheir teachers any time they're being 'educated' beause they have to invent and manage an entirely new process that will work for them.

so in more adult life, do you find you've worked out strategies for clearing that kind of space for yourself? figuring out how to ask questions and phrase them in such a way that they produce the information you need seems like it's one of the major challenges. i had it too as an intj, btw so maybe it has something to do with one of those shared mbti functions; don't know. i think some of my son's self-sufficiency (def not all of it) is partly generated by this whole disconnect between how he thinks and the ways people imagine everyone thinks. so it's not surprising some people take longer to 'mature' in the visible ways. they're busy building a taj mahal of their own in the backs of their minds, just to allow them to interface with the world.
 
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