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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
are we a little soft on ourselves?

is it because we go so easy on other people that we forgive ourselves too readily for the bad shit we do? do we rationalise things in order to protect our egos from letting us know we have done something wrong? it seems the only way i can get rid of a guilty feeling is to rationalise and say to myself "well i was really stressed and i wouldn't have done it if i wasn't so confused and hurt" and so on and so fort. when somebody else does something bad i can see how it came to be that they did it and can forgive them and i think society as a whole needs us enfp's to fulfill this role but i was wondering is the downside of that that we don't know where to draw the line and let ourselves off the hook for things we should probably try to address?

there are so many ways of looking at things and sometimes it's hard to know which way is right. for instance in my late twenties i would have considered myself sexually adventurous but maybe i was just a slut? what is a slut anyway? is it something men have made up to make women feel bad for having lots of previous partners because they can't handle the competition? and a word that other women allow to thrive because they can put themselves in a better light by being chaste in comparison to all the other whores she has to compete with? my definition of a whore would be someone who dresses like one and who sleeps with other peoples boyfriends and doesn't care who she hurts as long as she gets sexual attention. someone elses definition might be anyone who has had more than 10 one night stands. having realised now how men actually view a girl who sleeps with them on the first night as just a whore i can't help but think i was a slut back then because i allowed another person to view me that way and to be honest i wasn't too bothered what their opinion of me was. in my mind we were two consenting adults having a bit of fun if they wanted to judge me that was their delusion and madonna/whore complex not mine. but now i'm having a rethink. will i be forever branded as easy because of a phase i went through? i realised that i actually hate one night stands, they're fucking shit and i can only enjoy sex when it has meaning. i don't think i'll ever have another one again as long as i live so right now i'm not a slut but your past is your past so will i always be what i was? i will always be that girl who did them things. should i just call a spade a spade instead of insisting it's a spork? does this make sense to anyone else? cos i'm just after confusing the shit out of myself now.
 

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sorry is this thread actually just about you wondering whether you were a slut or not? i mean obviously you're reaching out on a broader context but basically that's what you were pondering when you came up with this thread?

i think "slut" is a label which people misuse/ has had it's meaning distorted. it's supposed to mean someone who has so little respect for themselves that they're willing to throw themselves at guys or are willing to get frisky with almost any guy who comes calling. nowadays anyone who has a decent amount of meaningless sex is a slut.

actually i see what you mean because that line is pretty confuddling. when is it just because you're a "fun" outgoing woman and when does it cross the line into disgusting.. i mean i tend to think if someone's had meaningless sex with a lot of people i know that crosses the disgusting line- like if i hear that they've slept with this person and that person, or if someone comes onto me or others very quickly without at least chatting us up, but if someone's going out every week and having frequent one night stands with people they find attractive / because they were drunk and they looked attractive through the foggy haze, then fair enough.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
sorry is this thread actually just about you wondering whether you were a slut or not? i mean obviously you're reaching out on a broader context but basically that's what you were pondering when you came up with this thread?

i think "slut" is a label which people misuse/ has had it's meaning distorted. it's supposed to mean someone who has so little respect for themselves that they're willing to throw themselves at guys or are willing to get frisky with almost any guy who comes calling. nowadays anyone who has a decent amount of meaningless sex is a slut.

actually i see what you mean because that line is pretty confuddling. when is it just because you're a "fun" outgoing woman and when does it cross the line into disgusting.. i mean i tend to think if someone's had meaningless sex with a lot of people i know that crosses the disgusting line- like if i hear that they've slept with this person and that person, or if someone comes onto me or others very quickly without at least chatting us up, but if someone's going out every week and having frequent one night stands with people they find attractive / because they were drunk and they looked attractive through the foggy haze, then fair enough.
well i was verbally assaulted the other day and that was one of the words that was thrown at me. he was referring to shit that happened years ago and at the time i slept with alot of people it was rebound sex so by definition it was meaningless since it can't have any meaning when you are in love with someone else. there were a few drunken (and i mean very drunk) one night stands but there were a few people i was with who wanted a relationship after so i know it meant something to them and there was definately plenty of talking and mutual respect even if things did move pretty fast. but i think even if men act like they respect you the fact you sleep with them so soon they see you differently. maybe i just had a too high opinion of myself and thought i was above that kind of judgement? i don't know. over the space of about 3 years i slept with a few guys from the same clique. that's the bit that is getting to me. i'd known them all for years and knew it would be stupid to sleep with a friend and for years never did but then i went through this free love phase and allowed it to happen. it's just really annoying because i was never like that before and i know i was seen as hard to get and i much prefer that image of myself than the fool who allowed herself to be passed around as it was so nicely put to me.

i suppose what i am trying to do is get to the truth of the matter. if i look at it from the angle of my verbal attacker it hurts alot and makes me look like the biggest whore on the planet and although there is some truth to what he was saying i know that isn't how it really is since his view is distorted by hurt and an overly judgemental attitude. but then on the other hand my side of it is overly forgiving and understanding so that probably isn't the truth of the matter either. my brain is just doing somersaults going back and forth i just had to get it all out. i don't think there is an answer it's all very rhetorical i suppose since it's all a matter of opinion.
 

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tea biscuits, this is why I love Jesus Christ. He forgives ALL my sins. He starts me fresh today with nothing hanging over my head, and if he doesn't hold my past against me, how can I?

Even without faith in Christ, you can do two things: One, you can call your behavior whatever you want, but stop telling yourself you were any one thing and assert to each day that you don't do that any more. Move forward today. You can say, Yes, I was promiscous before, but that was before. And when someone else calls you a slut, or bitch or anything else abusive, walk away or toss that person out! You can insist that stops now. Why would you talk to anyone who calls you names? Why give away even one moment of your peace or self esteem to that person?

And two, if you know better now, be thankful you have learned something and don't go back to risking your health or your future. You mentioned initially about how we rationalize our behavior. We give ourselves breaks; we love and forgive ourselves, naturally. We are easy on ourselves, until we start to feel regrets or consequences. Feel them and move on.

And please, don't ever call yourself a slut or whore again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
tea biscuits, this is why I love Jesus Christ. He forgives ALL my sins. He starts me fresh today with nothing hanging over my head, and if he doesn't hold my past against me, how can I?

Even without faith in Christ, you can do two things: One, you can call your behavior whatever you want, but stop telling yourself you were any one thing and assert to each day that you don't do that any more. Move forward today. You can say, Yes, I was promiscous before, but that was before. And when someone else calls you a slut, or bitch or anything else abusive, walk away or toss that person out! You can insist that stops now. Why would you talk to anyone who calls you names? Why give away even one moment of your peace or self esteem to that person?

And two, if you know better now, be thankful you have learned something and don't go back to risking your health or your future. You mentioned initially about how we rationalize our behavior. We give ourselves breaks; we love and forgive ourselves, naturally. We are easy on ourselves, until we start to feel regrets or consequences. Feel them and move on.

And please, don't ever call yourself a slut or whore again.
yeah i don't really believe in jesus christ, cool and all as he is i just don't buy it but thanks.

why would i talk to someone who calls me names? well what would jesus do? i think he'd forgive them wouldn't he?
i can't help but forgive the other person for saying what he said because it was said out of hurt and i know what i did hurt him alot but i do think i need to walk away from this situation because it's really not doing my self esteem any favours and it is allowing him to be abusive which i know for a fact is something he does not want to be. i know he feels bad for saying what he said. we all say horrible things to each other in the heat of an argument but this has been going on for a very long time and he can't let it go. it's been on/off for years, hence the number of rebound sex partners i've had. it was him who dumped me every time and then i go and have rebound sex to try to forget about him and now i'm a slut? it's all too much. :confused:
 

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Yes, Jesus would forgive. He said we should love others as ourselves, meaning, give them breaks, forgive and keep forgiving. But Jesus doesn't have relationships with the people who call him names or hate him, and neither should we. The relationships begin when people ask for forgiveness and promise to stop the behavior that offended us. And then we learn to trust them by seeing over time that they really meant it.

What we shouldn't do is let people label us and harshly judge against us because we might feel we deserve it. He said his piece, and he relayed his hurt. How often do you allow him to keep holding it against you? How often does he get to call you a whore or slut? When does it stop? I'm glad you're asking about this. You're right; you need to walk away because the dynamic sounds like a bad one. If he is at his worst and becomes something he doesn't want to be, it's not your fault. It's the dynamic, and he alone is responsible for his words. Walking away may be the only way to change it.

ENFPs are notorious at giving breaks to others. We tolerate just about anything because they must be feeling hurt or have extreme pain or we hurt them, or any of the other justifications we may give for bad behavior. We're so comitted to meeting others where they are, we forget to meet ourselves where we are.

tea briscuits, we are powerfully affected by putdowns and verbal abuse. We take their words into our souls and we take them as truth on some level. More than almost any other type.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes, Jesus would forgive. He said we should love others as ourselves, meaning, give them breaks, forgive and keep forgiving. But Jesus doesn't have relationships with the people who call him names or hate him, and neither should we. The relationships begin when people ask for forgiveness and promise to stop the behavior that offended us. And then we learn to trust them by seeing over time that they really meant it.

What we shouldn't do is let people label us and harshly judge against us because we might feel we deserve it. He said his piece, and he relayed his hurt. How often do you allow him to keep holding it against you? How often does he get to call you a whore or slut? When does it stop? I'm glad you're asking about this. You're right; you need to walk away because the dynamic sounds like a bad one. If he is at his worst and becomes something he doesn't want to be, it's not your fault. It's the dynamic, and he alone is responsible for his words. Walking away may be the only way to change it.

ENFPs are notorious at giving breaks to others. We tolerate just about anything because they must be feeling hurt or have extreme pain or we hurt them, or any of the other justifications we may give for bad behavior. We're so comitted to meeting others where they are, we forget to meet ourselves where we are.

tea briscuits, we are powerfully affected by putdowns and verbal abuse. We take their words into our souls and we take them as truth on some level. More than almost any other type.
it isn't that he constantly calls me a slut, it's what he believes. he thinks in black and white and that is what he thinks. he had a huge row and i pushed him to be as blunt as he was. he's pretty blunt anyway so in a fight he's really blunt.

and this is probably a whole different topic but how do you know jesus didn't enter relationships with people who called him names? surely jesus forgave anyone who called him names cos they were mere mortals who didn't know any better. i can't see jesus going around saying to someone " no i wont be your friend, you called me a gay hippy weirdo ****** behind my back, i heard it off john the baptist that you hate me so fuck you! wash your own damn feet" i think his reaction to someone calling him a weirdo hippy ****** would be to say " i forgive you for you know not what you say" and then he'd just be so cool that the person calling him names would realise how wrong they'd been and they'd be all like " hey jesus, sorry about going behind your back and saying mean things about you to john the baptist" and jesus would be like " that's ok dude, you were limited in your understanding, if anyone is at fault it's my dad for making you that way, you can't help it."
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
i've been thinking about it today and i've decided to take a leaf out of jesus's book. i'm going to forgive myself. i'm a contradiction in every other way so why wouldn't i be in this instance. fuck it i've made some mistakes, i let myself down but i learned from it. i was in a dark place then. i was suffering big time and i handled it by going off the wall. what else was i going to do being what i am? i didn't intentionally hurt anyone. i just hope that he can also take a leaf out of jesus's book and realise that i was going through hell at that time. if anyones read the 10 stages of depression an enfp goes through i was at stage 10. the only reason i'm still here is that i have a kid and that is the gods honest truth. i can't allow myself to be punished for something i did at a time i was so vulnerable and it is cruel of him to punish me for it. i've tried explaining this to him but he thinks i'm just making excuses. i think his problem is that he finds it hard to empathise with anyone so he can't forgive me. he can't seem to see how circumstances can throw someone into depression and cause them to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. he thinks it's all black and white and if he stays in that mindset he will never be happy because nobody goes through life without being stressed at some point and everyone does shitty things they regret when they are stressed so everyone will eventually disappoint him and he will end up hating everyone and being alone and miserable. i hope he's as intelligent as i think he is and that he finally learns what empathy is all about.

maybe as his dual i was supposed to teach him this lesson. he was born thinking in black and white so he got paired up with a walking contradiction to teach him all about grey areas. pity he had to learn the hard way. but nature is cruel. i have no boundaries at all and obviously needed someone to show me when to draw the line. pity i had to be a retard and learn the hard way and have the best relationship i've ever been in tainted by my past but as i said, mother nature is a cruel bitch.
 

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The only thing I think I can throw in is the question: If you really empathize with the pain you caused the guy, have you shown it? If you hurt him, have you given a heartfelt apology? Like, I mean going to the guy, stopping everything else, start by saying you've been doing some thinking, and explain that you feel the pain you caused him---you're hurt by his pain. We've seen you here trying to ponder society's definition of slut (which, guess what, isn't agreed upon anywhere), but really, if I may be so bold as to say it, what you should be pondering is what this guy's definition of slut is. It's a lot easier than trying to change his definition. Plus, then you won't be lying when you say that you've been doing some thinking, making the whole heartfelt-thing more apparent.

So yeah, if you played your cards right that should all add up to a defining moment. He might accept your apology and apologize himself. With that he'll hopefully stop throwing you on the burner and calling you names. OR He might not apologize himself, but he'll still let up on you. OR He'll keep giving you a hard time, in which case it's hopeless in my books and you have to avoid him for the sake of stress-control (which is important!!).

But, yeah, in a way this comes down to "WWOoHPMFD?" (what would one of history's peaceful messianistic figures do?), as opposed to it coming down to him getting "woomph'ed" (that is clubbed over the head by you in a fit of rage next time he gets on your case). :wink:
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The only thing I think I can throw in is the question: If you really empathize with the pain you caused the guy, have you shown it? If you hurt him, have you given a heartfelt apology? Like, I mean going to the guy, stopping everything else, start by saying you've been doing some thinking, and explain that you feel the pain you caused him---you're hurt by his pain. We've seen you here trying to ponder society's definition of slut (which, guess what, isn't agreed upon anywhere), but really, if I may be so bold as to say it, what you should be pondering is what this guy's definition of slut is. It's a lot easier than trying to change his definition. Plus, then you won't be lying when you say that you've been doing some thinking, making the whole heartfelt-thing more apparent.

So yeah, if you played your cards right that should all add up to a defining moment. He might accept your apology and apologize himself. With that he'll hopefully stop throwing you on the burner and calling you names. OR He might not apologize himself, but he'll still let up on you. OR He'll keep giving you a hard time, in which case it's hopeless in my books and you have to avoid him for the sake of stress-control (which is important!!).

But, yeah, in a way this comes down to "WWOoHPMFD?" (what would one of history's peaceful messianistic figures do?), as opposed to it coming down to him getting "woomph'ed" (that is clubbed over the head by you in a fit of rage next time he gets on your case). :wink:
thanks for that. you obviously gave your reply alot of thought.

yes i have let him know how sorry i am and the whole reason i am so upset over it all is that i know i have hurt him and knowing i have caused him pain is torturing me. he knows this. i told him there isn't a day that goes by that i don't think about it and am filled with regret. but to him they are just words. no amount of words can undo the past.

you're right, it is his definition of slut that is killing me. i don't need to ponder it, i already know. he's asked me to help him understand but every time i try to explain he says it's all bullshit. i did think he would eventually get it and there would be this defining moment but i don't know maybe there wont be. maybe it's just like trying to explain colours to a blind person.they can kind of get it but will never fully understand.

i like that... "woomph'ed" and i know he will get "woomphed" if i stay so i guess i better go and hope he learns the truth some day.
 

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thanks for that. you obviously gave your reply alot of thought.

yes i have let him know how sorry i am and the whole reason i am so upset over it all is that i know i have hurt him and knowing i have caused him pain is torturing me. he knows this. i told him there isn't a day that goes by that i don't think about it and am filled with regret. but to him they are just words. no amount of words can undo the past.

you're right, it is his definition of slut that is killing me. i don't need to ponder it, i already know. he's asked me to help him understand but every time i try to explain he says it's all bullshit. i did think he would eventually get it and there would be this defining moment but i don't know maybe there wont be. maybe it's just like trying to explain colours to a blind person.they can kind of get it but will never fully understand.

i like that... "woomph'ed" and i know he will get "woomphed" if i stay so i guess i better go and hope he learns the truth some day.
Agreed. Good rhyme at the end there too. :laughing:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

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I think it's important to forgive yourself, and to express your sadness to him. You can ask for forgivenes, but after that, its up to him to forgive, or not. I'm saying, don't punish yourself by allowing him to hold your sin over your head. It might in his growth cycle to learn to forgive or maybe his relationship with you is part of learning to determine what he needs, the same as you're learning. The hardest thing for us can be to step back at some point and say, "If you aren't willing to drop it, (forgive) we won't be able to be friends." It hurts when it isn't possible, but we survive.

He asked you to help him understand which part? Even if you know now, it sounds like he isn't open to understanding it or can't compute. I used to have someone in my life who always said he wanted to understand why I did this or that, But out of his own troubles, he was really only interested in making me feel small. If he could get me explaining, he felt like he won. Defending yourself repeatedly may be adding fuel to the fire.

And yes, Jesus would forgive anyone who is sorry. His whole history is about forgiveness and reconciliation. He forgave the people who tortured him and he is open to relationship. But he left the earth with the people mocking him. Today, there are millions of people who call him names (or even if they don't call him names, they think it's all bs) They do not have relationships with him.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I think it's important to forgive yourself, and to express your sadness to him. You can ask for forgivenes, but after that, its up to him to forgive, or not. I'm saying, don't punish yourself by allowing him to hold your sin over your head. It might in his growth cycle to learn to forgive or maybe his relationship with you is part of learning to determine what he needs, the same as you're learning. The hardest thing for us can be to step back at some point and say, "If you aren't willing to drop it, (forgive) we won't be able to be friends." It hurts when it isn't possible, but we survive.

He asked you to help him understand which part? Even if you know now, it sounds like he isn't open to understanding it or can't compute. I used to have someone in my life who always said he wanted to understand why I did this or that, But out of his own troubles, he was really only interested in making me feel small. If he could get me explaining, he felt like he won. Defending yourself repeatedly may be adding fuel to the fire.

And yes, Jesus would forgive anyone who is sorry. His whole history is about forgiveness and reconciliation. He forgave the people who tortured him and he is open to relationship. But he left the earth with the people mocking him. Today, there are millions of people who call him names (or even if they don't call him names, they think it's all bs) They do not have relationships with him.
ok you're probably going to think i'm a complete bitch here now but....

i agree with jesus's message but i would prefer to look a little deeper within myself to find the right answers. i think everyone has this power and knows deep down what is right and what is wrong.it takes trial and error, alot of observing and alot of listening to figure these things out. i have found from my experience that it is wrong to look for answers in the bible because it can so easily be misinterpreted and life is just a little more complicated than the bible makes out. i'm not trying to have a go at you and i genuinely appreciate you taking the time to answer my post but i suspect you might be following the bible blindly. just the fact that you said jesus would forgive anyone who is sorry makes me question how well you have understood it (or maybe your teacher wasn't very clear in explaining it to you). his message was that everyone gets forgiven not just the sorry ones. and when you look at what we discovered through mbti you have to agree, we do deserve to be forgiven for our shortcomings. we're all lacking in one way or another. it's no ones fault, it's just how we are made.

i really hope you don't take me up wrong and think i am attacking your religion because i'm not. it's just that when people talk to me about jesus and make out like it is all 100% truth i feel i have to be honset with them and give my opinion since not many other people do or if they do they go about it in a nasty way which only makes the believer get their back up and not listen. i used to have a great relationship with jesus myself before but after opening my mind up to the possibility that he may not have actually been the son of god it's like trying to make myself believe in santa again. it just doesn't make sense. you remind me of myself how i was years ago and i have to say i feel alot better for questioning the bible rather than following it blindly. it's probably a good thing to look outside yourself for guidance but you have to make your own mind up at the end of the day.

but thank you very much for your help and advice. you seem like a really warm and caring person. i hope you don't take offence to what i have said but i do hope you have the strength of character to give what i have said some thought. even if you question it and still believe afterwards at the very least your faith will be all the stronger for it. :wink:
 
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No, I appreciate your opinion, teabiscits. This may surprise you, but I dialogue with many people of different faiths. I have for years, questioned teachers, looked at other books; I've always been open to that. I understand we're all different. I study the bible as a christian, and find help for anything I've ever encountered in this life. But I see consistently that without faith it will not make sense. You really don't know whether I have held the bible to any scrutiny or not. It's a common misperception that christians must follow it blindly to believe it, and that's ok. You seem to care and are obviously trying to respect me.

Jesus provided forgiveness for everyone when he died on the cross, as the Bible says, but he is not in relationships with everyone. Only the ones who turn to him, will ever know him or receive forgiveness. It's there but most people don't even know about it. I shared his forgiveness with you because it released me from guilt and shame over my past choices and you are experiencing guilt and regret and a growing desire for change. I'm sorry your experience was that you didn't find answers or hope or whatever you needed in the bible or in a relationship with Jesus.

I just don't want you to hold things over yourself or be hurt because anyone else uses your guiilt or regret against you. I hope you feel loved and supported here.
 
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I brought up a similar moral dilemma to an INTP once.
And he said something amazing to me, because it really pulled me out of my confusion and babbling
He said
"Does it really matter if your actions don't meet the social perception?"
Its really stuck with me.

Sometimes I wish I was introverted so I wasn't so concerned with people's judgements.
 
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