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Cuz being a 4 isn't always useful for the important things in life. :unsure:

I want to become a winner. And get further than where I am now.

So how can a type 4 morph into an 8?
 
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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.
 

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So I'm wondering why you think being an 8 would be any better. If you want to be a winner and get ahead, you should look at type 3.
 

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So I'm wondering why you think being an 8 would be any better. If you want to be a winner and get ahead, you should look at type 3.
Because I want to crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentations of their women.

 
Also I'm closer to 8 than 3 so I want to draw it out.
 
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Drink at least one pint of milk every morning, get at least 30mins of cardio and 200 reps of press-ups every day, dye your hair black to help channel the 8 essence and lastly, (this is very important), help at least one little old lady cross the road every week.
 

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Drink at least one pint of milk every morning, get at least 30mins of cardio and 200 reps of press-ups every day, dye your hair black to help channel the 8 essence and lastly, (this is very important), help at least one little old lady cross the road every week.
Giiiirl, was born with dat shiny long black hair got one thing down pat.

Gotta force my body to accept the lactose now..:angry:

I'M FEELIN' THE 8!!!
 
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thats the spirit! the lactose doesnt control you, you control it. microdose lactose til you can tolerate it. dont be weak. be stronger than the lactose.

DO IT.
 

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Cuz being a 4 isn't always useful for the important things in life. :unsure:

I want to become a winner. And get further than where I am now.

So how can a type 4 morph into an 8?
You don't become a winner by becoming someone else, but by makeng 'em see what you really are.
 
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Cuz being a 4 isn't always useful for the important things in life. :unsure:

I want to become a winner. And get further than where I am now.

So how can a type 4 morph into an 8?
It's easy to believe that all of our problems would be solved if we were someone else. But if we were someone else, we'd have different problems that we can't even imagine.

If you want to be like an 8, then just get stronger. Take responsibility for everything wrong in your life and slap it into submission. Then have breakfast. Bacon tastes better after confronting one's demons.
 

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Cuz being a 4 isn't always useful for the important things in life. :unsure:

I want to become a winner. And get further than where I am now.

So how can a type 4 morph into an 8?
find out what a healthy 8 looks like and make those things important to you. (I actually have a note of what that looks like in affirmation form: http://www.evernote.com/l/AUE3MekIs0BIWq1t3ls-xzr4frgLgCQmHY8/ )

our values shape us- the enneagram isn't "real" per se, it's just a model, an idea, a theory.

what shapes us and makes us who we are is what we aspire to be, who and what we admire, what we believe in, what we stand for (and what we wont stand for), what motivates us, how we see ourselves, how we feel about ourselves and the world.

you're not an "enneagram 4", you're a unique human being with unique experiences and unique values, goals, and ambitions.

don't let a psychological theory limit you. if you want to be strong and assertive, then be that! if you want to protect the weak and lift people up, then do it!

what i have found helpful in the enneagram theory is realizing that you're not just one type. you're actually all 9 types in varying degrees.

the tritype theory i think is one of the best explanations of the enneagram, and I have added my own distinction to make it more helpful to me (And hopefully you too) : there cannot be 2 of the same types in the tritype.

for instance: there couldnt be an 8w7, 7w8, 3w4. it'd have to be an 8w7, 6 or 5 with their wing, and then the heart center.

so a person who had the latter tritype would be most like an 8, 2nd most like a 7, 3rd most like a 6 or 5, then whatever wing, then the heart types, and then the remaining types.

for me, I am in that theory a 7w8, 1w9, 4w3, 5,6,2. (or something like that).

why that's helpful to me is because it helps me prioritize my values in the enneagram framework and helps me focus on building others than I may not value as highly.

being a balanced individual is a great achievement, I believe.

as an aside/rant, 8s aren't the only ones who are protective. they're not the only ones who who are strong and assertive. 3s arent the only ones who accomplish goals and 7s arent the only joyful ones.

**maybe** it's the 8 in us (remember, we're all 9 types at once) that is protective/strong, and it's the 3 in us who achieves, and the 7 in us who expresses joy and exuberance, etc.

Make yourself! create yourself! :D
 

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Still, just out of curiosity: can anyone change their type? From what I know you're not born, but you become your Enneagram type. This should happen during childhood. But if it happens during childhood, can it happen at a later stage? Or multiple times during one's lifetime? If it can happen, what is needed for it to happen?
 

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Still, just out of curiosity: can anyone change their type? From what I know you're not born, but you become your Enneagram type. This should happen during childhood. But if it happens during childhood, can it happen at a later stage? Or multiple times during one's lifetime? If it can happen, what is needed for it to happen?
I don't know if they can or can't, although the conventional wisdom is that it's not possible. What can happen like the someone noted earlier is that you can absorb some of the values of another type, if they are deeply interested in it.

But, here's my question. What is the likelihood that someone can permanently stop valuing the things they value deep down? Not the external manifestation of type we see in others, but the deep down stuff.

For example, a 3 could just as easily be completely focused on spirituality, but they can't stop being a competency image type. They may believe, "this is what I'm going to become the best at. This is my path. People will see that I'm incredibly good at this, and they will come to me for advice. They will respect me and admire me for it." When integrating to 6, they would also think, "I will share this with my world so that others can benefit from it too. This is their journey too." The 3 will feel uncomfortable with the vice of deceit because they know how easy it and dangerous it is for them. They'll feel drawn towards the virtue of type 3 (truthfulness), but they'll probably screw that up a few times in their lives, then feel incredibly ashamed and hope that no one knows.

When a problem arises though, as a competency type, type 3 spiritual hotshot is going to believe, "I have to solve this. I can handle it. I have hope." They're not going to think, "problems happen to me :( why won't someone rescue me?" Of course, wings and fixes will make a difference. But I'm keeping it simple for the sake of explanation.

So, my personal answer is that it's highly unlikely that someone can change types. It's likely that people who are working from the higher end of their type's development are going to be mistyped as something else though. We only see the external behavior, right? It can be harder to see their vices and fears. Each type has access to their type's higher side. Each type has the option of embracing its virtue. Each individual has to find that part of them and make the most of it. They don't need to escape their type to become incredible human beings. Their own type can do that for them.
 

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I don't know if they can or can't, although the conventional wisdom is that it's not possible. What can happen like the someone noted earlier is that you can absorb some of the values of another type, if they are deeply interested in it.

But, here's my question. What is the likelihood that someone can permanently stop valuing the things they value deep down? Not the external manifestation of type we see in others, but the deep down stuff.

For example, a 3 could just as easily be completely focused on spirituality, but they can't stop being a competency image type. They may believe, "this is what I'm going to become the best at. This is my path. People will see that I'm incredibly good at this, and they will come to me for advice. They will respect me and admire me for it." When integrating to 6, they would also think, "I will share this with my world so that others can benefit from it too. This is their journey too." The 3 will feel uncomfortable with the vice of deceit because they know how easy it and dangerous it is for them. They'll feel drawn towards the virtue of type 3 (truthfulness), but they'll probably screw that up a few times in their lives, then feel incredibly ashamed and hope that no one knows.

When a problem arises though, as a competency type, type 3 spiritual hotshot is going to believe, "I have to solve this. I can handle it. I have hope." They're not going to think, "problems happen to me :( why won't someone rescue me?" Of course, wings and fixes will make a difference. But I'm keeping it simple for the sake of explanation.

So, my personal answer is that it's highly unlikely that someone can change types. It's likely that people who are working from the higher end of their type's development are going to be mistyped as something else though. We only see the external behavior, right? It can be harder to see their vices and fears. Each type has access to their type's higher side. Each type has the option of embracing its virtue. Each individual has to find that part of them and make the most of it. They don't need to escape their type to become incredible human beings. Their own type can do that for them.
It depends how you define "liberation," which is Riso and Hudson's highest level of development. The much bigger point is that there isn't much point in liberating oneself from the restrictions of one type, and then choosing another. It would be like going out of the frying pan and into the fire. Each type has strengths and weaknesses, so you'd be swapping one set for another.

Abraham Maslow created transpersonal psychology to address this issue. You can be a wonderful person and be self-actualized, which is living up to the full potential of your ego, but what of the people that transcend it? What of the people that move beyond the restrictive notion of self?

A core port of the Enneagram is ego fixations, so the important debate is whether we are born with our ego, or whether our ego can change itself. If the ego fixation of a type 4 is envy, and that person is envious of a type 8, will becoming a type 8 resolve the ego fixation? But if said person resolves the envy, and becomes liberated from that fixation, they may be able to access those parts of himself or herself.

This part of the argument is extremely abstract, but my suggestion is that our egos probably won't change themselves, no matter how hard they try, and won't do better than pretending that they are different, without actually resolving the ego fixations. But, if we look to some of the Eastern spiritual traditions, and recognize that there is another element of self, whether it be the "true self" or "the witness," or simply the "higher self," that part of self may be capable of making changes.

From a less abstract perspective, if the Ennegram is based around defense and coping mechanisms that we develop during childhood for the purposes of survival, if we were to develop new defense mechanisms to deal with a life or death situation later in life, it is theoretically possible that our personality would change. People that experience near death experiences, or profound spiritual transformations often have changes in their personality. How big the change is probably depends upon the person. I suspect that in these circumstances, the person is coming in contact more directly with their id and superego, and needs to find a new way to organize their understanding of themselves.
 

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What is the likelihood that someone can permanently stop valuing the things they value deep down? Not the external manifestation of type we see in others, but the deep down stuff.

So, my personal answer is that it's highly unlikely that someone can change types. It's likely that people who are working from the higher end of their type's development are going to be mistyped as something else though. We only see the external behavior, right? It can be harder to see their vices and fears. Each type has access to their type's higher side. Each type has the option of embracing its virtue. Each individual has to find that part of them and make the most of it. They don't need to escape their type to become incredible human beings. Their own type can do that for them.
The likelihood is indeed small, but there may be instances where in a situation the type may change. I'm thinking about a traumatic event or some other type of exceptional event. People may have during their lifetimes one or more such events, critical in shaping them.

I for example don't really know my Enneagram type, since it seems to me that I'm more than 1 type, with good arguments for a number of them (1w9, 5w6 or 8w9, maybe even 9w8 or 9w1). My MBTI type is INTJ (if that helps) When I was a child I withdrew from conflicts, I was bullied and I responded by withdrawing into study, mainly by watching TV (documentaries and the news). I didn't have the patience to read books... I get bored after about 20 pages... I do read, but it takes me a while to finish 1 book. I had one such event a couple of years ago, a very severe conflict with my boss, and instead of withdrawing, I retaliated and I won. That moment changed me. I was 5-ish or 1-ish before, but now I am more 8-ish... I still do the old things, regarding learning and stuff (I take a lot of classes) and am usually passive, but if I am attacked, I will retaliate. Unlike what the former First Lady of the US said: "When they go low, we go high". I'm more about "When they go low, I go lower... way lower" At work, bosses are afraid of me (a coworker told me this, I took it as a compliment) and usually leave me alone to do things my way (not by the book, except when it's in my interest, but highly effective). I get the job done, don't ask me how I did it. :D
 

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Still, just out of curiosity: can anyone change their type? From what I know you're not born, but you become your Enneagram type. This should happen during childhood. But if it happens during childhood, can it happen at a later stage? Or multiple times during one's lifetime? If it can happen, what is needed for it to happen?
Looks like it is a mixture of both nature and nurture: parents and children have similar personalities

I've read before there is a formative period between 0 - 25 years, and that period is subdivided into sub-periods with higher or lower personality growth spurts. Seems like it's simply the pattern of decisions you make -- the environment provides choices which limit the type of decisions that you can make, and the option you choose from the choices provided to you slowly builds your persona.

So you are born with a very basic personality infrastructure, the environment provides you fixed choices, and your basic infrastructure (your genes) provide you with the basis to make a choice between the options provided to you in your environment.

When you make a choice, the environment responds to you with the result of your choice, and you slowly learn what works and what doesn't work for you in your environment -- that changes your basic personality infrastructure and you start to pack layers on top of it -- that's your environmental learning.

And the environmental learning is much more susceptible to growth in the age range 0 - 25. In later years, it's more an uphill battle -- changes can be made, but I don't think on a fundamental level. It's always possible (neuroplasticity and the power of choice / will), but much harder and much rarer.

TL;DR: Don't worry about it and don't try to be a type, you will naturally fit into what you need to be given the way you work and the environment you are in.

Post Thoughts:
1. Pardon for repetition, trying to make my point clear.
2. I shouldn't say don't try to be a type -- if you are trying to be a type that could be a choice you are supposed to make lol. Basically I'm saying, it doesn't matter, you will learn and do what you need to to survive to the best of your ability in this world.
 
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