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Discussion Starter #1
Looooong time reader of this forum, first time poster.

How do enneagram 5s feel about 4s?

I'm very curious as I seem to be attracted (platonically and romantically) to 5s, but of course because they tend to be rather private, I don't hear much of them spouting opinions on 4s.

I love all my deep discussions with them and value them and their logical advice immensely. I'd like to hear how they take my kind to be. Some sources say 4s are threatening to 5s with how emotional they can be (not necessarily in an uncontained way, but with how much emotion is an integral part of a 4's life), some say they both share a lot in common. The two types seem to be a paradoxically similar opposite to me at least. I'm very interested to hear opinions.

How have your personal experiences and reactions been to 4s? How do you feel about them? (haha, to say four-ishly)
 

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I’m a 5w4 INTJ. I tend to be more in-tune with my emotional well-being than most INTJs would describe on these forums because of the 4 wing, but I still function as you would expect an INTJ to in terms of cognition. I’m often confusing to other people, because one minute I’m detached and distance, where other times I have no problem with being affectionate and dealing with emotions (that took maturity and experience to understand, though).

So, 4s tend to be drawn to me, but it ends up turning out fairly badly in my own experience. They see the detached 5 and like to treat me as a puzzle (on top of the Fi), but then they every once in a while they see my romantic and compassionate 4 come out. In the end, my core 5 always takes back over and I find this process to be incredibly draining and frustrating, and it took me a while to understand this about myself.

The last person that I dated was a ENFP 4w3, and he would often say to me, “Are you mad at me for something? Do you not like me?” because I was so hot and cold. The biggest problem that I tend to have with 4s, is that they seem to like to sulk in their own misery at times and don’t want a solution; they just want to feel it. I can understand that with being a w4, but it doesn’t last nearly as long and I become selfish sometimes. My 5 seems to come back out, where I then want to find a solution or understand the problem in-depth to rid of it. This reason alone is why I look for emotionally independent people to date, because although I care deeply and sometimes show it, showing affection and constantly being emotionally supportive is really not something that I can deal with over a prolonged period of time.

I also dated a 4w3 INFP for 2 years, and all I have to say about that is, never again...Lol Incredibly smothering. But keep in mind, both of the 4s I dated were unhealthy individuals and had insecurity issues. There are some 4s that I've met and have enjoyed, but usually we're not all that close and it's more in passing.
 

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Lotus Jester
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It depends on their state of health and whether or not, they're a toxic or reasonably adjusted individual. I love and am very drawn to independent self-aware 4s as they express the emotions that I am either unable or uncomfortable expressing; so I tend to find their emotional depth fascinating. Toxic and unhealthy 4s are a drain on my resources since I can't tolerate anyone being too needy, self-absorbed and emotionally dependant on me. However, I do admire the ones who determined to figure themselves out and how they tend to value inner truth and integrity.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I can understand that, not wanting to be around someone who is clingy and emotionally needy. I can understand that especially for someone like a self-contained 5. Are fours often passive aggressive and needy like that? I don't really think I'm particularly that way... Although I do need to process my problems out loud with someone rather often. I like discussing and analyzing situations for insight and understanding of motives. Needing to know "why" someone did something makes me feel a lot better than comfort or whatever. Would that be an issue for fives?
 

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I've always loved Fours. I have a heavy Four wing and sometimes feel more Fourish than my actual type. This never lasts too long though. The thing that really awes me about Fours is their emotional honesty and vulnerability. I feel like it's powerful and beautiful, a rare gem of truth that can really shake me.
There's something I just don't "get" about 4w3's. Maybe it has to do with the fact that 4 and 3 are both "image" types. They tend to drain me and I sometimes look down on them as being shallow (which I'm sorry for). I do admire how they can be more set on achievement in the real world though. That's a drive I lack for the most part.
I like 4w5's better. Sometimes it seems we are so much the same that it excites me and I can feel connected to them in a way that is very hard to find with others. It really depends on their health level though. Although I can definitely dive deep into extremely dark thoughts myself, I usually add a portion of detachment and objectivity to keep from being overwhelmed by negativity. Fours can feel hurt when I do this, while I feel burdened by their heavy emotions and just wish they would keep it in sometimes or just let it go.
I would say that Fours make me feel threatened, but usually in a good way, in a way that forces/inspires me to do some hard dirty work and move into my feelings more.
 

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Sunset Stripper
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I used to really like them (in theory) but when I started meeting 4's I found them annoying because of their constant need to be different so they did absurd things and how that gave them a sense of superiority.

Four English teacher: Would acknowledge people being stupid for wearing winter clothes while living in the tropics, yet she would wear winter clothes while being in the tropics...She would also act like she was the only girl that played video games, she didnt like to read books because watching MOVIES and being into cinematography was so much more original.

I will say I get along super well with them. I like their personalities bunches.
 

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haha, fours love fives, it seems to be a pattern.

I dunno, healthy fives are kinda cool. their vitality surprises me.

as for how fives see me... hard to tell. depends on the person.

also i kinda found that as i feel less estranged from the world i don't attach to fives the same way anymore?? like when i'm feeling all lonerish they seem like kindred spirits, but when i'm not it seems like kindredness is something deeper and separate from someone else's "lonerness." that kind of equality in seeing everyone makes me feel like i'm seeing fives, as well, for who they actually are.
 

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Mmm, we fives and fours meet in our mutual understanding of the existential void in life, but as we mature and integrate/disintegrate, our paths differ substantially.

It's mostly apparent in the "nearly-integrated" stage of five occupying the fundamental traits of seven and moving into eight compared with four occupying the fundamental traits of two and moving into one.

You get a division of personality there - the five has developed the identity-security of six and is currently an active-doer like seven with a focus on manifesting one's internal passions and ultimate powerful drive as eight, whereas four has developed social-prowess of three and is currently a communal-helper like two with a focus of manifesting one's internal commitment and ultimate powerful purpose as one.

They both start from a position of being profoundly aware of a lacking and end on (as the OP said) paradoxically similar opposites as bringers of tremendous force and change, but with the five having a focus of making their inner intuition and deep, complex understanding a true reality and four having a focus of making their inner understanding of emotions and the human experience into a purpose to change the world with.

We have these similarities, untold potentials, starting closer to nihilism and psychotic-collapse than other types.
And yet our journeys and end goals differ so much.

So I see fours as siblings headed for distant lands and adventures. We may learn from and appreciate one another, but relying on one-another eventually leads to stagnation and a lack of moving forward.
 

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I have a couple fours in my life. I want to say that I'm not close with either of them, and that even if I knew them extremely well and saw them very clearly, they may or may not be typical fours. I did not identify them as fours; they themselves or their intimates did. With those caveats in place, opinions I have of them:

They're both more connected to the community than I am. For one that means reaching out, being involved in social justice; the other, I think, just has more friends than I do and a more active life.
Both much more stylish and attractive than I am. (However, I wouldn't say they're original in their style -- they both kinda look like they ask themselves every morning, "What would be the most stereotypically hipsterish thing I could wear today?")
Both have kinda indirect, underhanded ways of saying "Poor me" on a regular basis. From my perspective it seems like they have a hard time asking for support or sympathy directly. I wish they could have more confidence in themselves. But I wish that for everybody.
The younger one is pretty darn dramatic. I also have a hard time interacting with her because I have the sense I'm not getting the "real her" -- or that she even knows who that is enough to be it.

Many of these things sound negative but I don't really have a negative view of them -- more neutral. They're overall interesting people that I consider my "friends" in a broad sense. I was attracted to one until I got to know her better. (No big reason for the change, she just has some habits not necessarily related to her four-ness that I found irritating.)
 

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I can understand that, not wanting to be around someone who is clingy and emotionally needy. I can understand that especially for someone like a self-contained 5. Are fours often passive aggressive and needy like that? I don't really think I'm particularly that way... Although I do need to process my problems out loud with someone rather often. I like discussing and analyzing situations for insight and understanding of motives. Needing to know "why" someone did something makes me feel a lot better than comfort or whatever. Would that be an issue for fives?
5w4 INTP. Emotional distance notwithstanding, fives love figuring things out. I have a couple of good four friends, both 4w3 and 4w5, and we definitely have use for each other. Fives have the advantage over fours when it comes to analyzing and coming to conclusions, but fours have the advantage when it comes to expression.

What a healthy four can offer a five is help in expressing their inner world, which can be quite well-developed. Such expression is frightening for a five, who rarely feels ready to show off what they've been working on in their minds, though it might be worlds ahead of what the average person has worked out. What a four can do for a five is teach them to be visible, so that others can see and understand what might never have come to light otherwise.
 
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