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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I either really hurt him or annoyed him, not sure which... Does it make a diff?

Either way, he almost totally shut down, says hostile things, and even denies that our relationship was ever different, which is clearly not so...he used to text me all the time, invite me out, get shy/smiley when I was around, tell his friends he thinks I'm awesome, etc. Things were like this the first 3 months we knew each other.

Now it's ~3 months later; I think most things I did to try to make it better, may have done the opp :(

Any advice?

Thanks in advance!
 

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The only thing which could get me to close off forever would be something along the lines of betraying my trust about being vulnerable.

And my ex wife of course.
 
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This reminds me of the Zen proverb, 'If you aim for it, you are turning away from it.' I would permit him the space to cool down and process whatever bothers him.

The alternative, which I think is better, is to seek a more emotionally available partner who meshes with your communication style and emotional needs. Three months is a long time to wait for someone to get his head out of his butt, no matter what did happen.

Take care.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Well, it's a bit of a long story, which is why I tried to leave out details, but I'll see how short I can get it. Thanks for asking.

Firstly, I'm pretty sure I'm a 7 so whatever the details, I think it's mostly just that in general I probably just got scared of the vulnerability when we were starting to get close. Totally my bad. If this is enough for you to answer, then you can skip the rest of my reply. You can also skip the next paragraph if you'd like, as the one that follows starts what I think is the main story.

For example, shortly after he started hinting more openly about how he felt about me (lol I know. And it was in a text conversation, but still.), I asked him about something else he was afraid of, as that was the topic, and he told me about a vice he had. I asked if it was to fill the emptiness inside and he said yup. After something like a saddy face response, the next thing I asked him is if he knew a member of our community, as he helps people deal with similar things, instead of just staying with his feelings about it, etc. It was the classic insensitive "fix-it" response instead of just listening (it's not only men who do this lol). I tried to apologize the next day, also by text, but I also put some humor in it and may have come off also not so sensitive. Not the only examples of me saying the wrong thing or deflecting intimacy with humor.

A couple of weeks later, I ended up getting a ride from a male friend of his, whom I actually knew before I knew him, and whom I feel completely platonic about, but I learned later that he thought we used to date or something. We showed up together to another mutual friend's house, and the guy seemed to alternate between trying to charm me and saying more hostile things toward me than I'd ever seen him until that point. All in "jest" of course, so I don't think anyone else really noticed, but I noticed the change in tone... Also our relationship still wasn't defined at that point, so I didn't feel comfortable speaking openly about it, especially since he hadn't really done that very much either. So I was also being walled, pretending that nothing was amiss, and nothing was going on.

(I know, all very immature thus far; please everyone resist the urge to just advise me to fix all my ridiculous defense mechanisms instead of worrying about this particular relationship. I know, and I'm working on it, but these things happened, even though I "should" have known better, and I still care to try to do damage control if at all possible.)

We stayed late and the guy told the friend to drive me home. When I got home, I was really touched an excited to see, sitting on my porch, something I'd asked him for about a month earlier from his business (which is quite heavy, and he hasn't even delivered one to his mother yet lol). I immediately texted him a really happy, excited thank-you. No reply. I figured it was late. Only days or maybe even weeks later did I realize that he may have felt exposed by that thoughtful surprise gift, and right as he was waiting for me to go home and find it, I show up with some other guy and probably gave that guy more attention that I gave him, probably because I was feeling insecure that I'd written him an email the day before that made me feel exposed and he didn't reply. The gift on my porch was probably his reply; he's not big with words, especially written (though yes, he does seem to like texting). This all occurred to me much too late to deal with it properly, and I don't even know how I would address it really.

We never talked about it directly, but I kept trying to email him nice things or say positive things to him after (probably overcompensating), but I think by then he either didn't trust me anymore to be able to accept them, or maybe he just found it insincere or annoying, or sensed that they were perhaps fueled by guilt or seemed too much. So that's what I meant by either hurt or annoyed.

Soon I just decided to stop writing him -- like Dao suggested, thanks! -- and I wasn't seeing him around anymore at that point, so we weren't in touch for close to a month. Then, I saw him at an event, and he seemed to be trying to be near me, then soon came over and sat next to me to talk, small talk, but reconnect. We spoke a decent amount that night, and he walked away from group circles whenever I started talking to another guy (not to flirt, just to ask innocent question or something). We saw each other a few times over the next couple of weeks, he showed up at places where he knew I'd be, Idk if that was why, but he at least wasn't avoiding me, and he did talk to me, asked who I'm dating (if anyone) at some point, etc.

I started texting him again after that, and he responded, but I had big gaps in my replies for various reasons, and again, I felt like I was just (totally unintentionally!) deflecting all the intimacy that I was trying to recreate, and that he did seem to be positively responding to. Obviously, a person can only feel deflected so many times, so I totally get why he pulled back again, started making hostile jokes at me again, interspersed with some text convos that seem sincere.

Also he keeps seeing other guys talking to me, though I felt much more connected to him than any of those guys; but since my relationship with him remained mostly unspoken, I couldn't really see any reason to stop talking to them, however if I saw him talking with girls in front of me, I'd feel hurt (and if it was while we'd been close, I'd probably feel betrayed too :( )

I know I may have done too much damage with this one to repair, though I hope not, and the reason for my question here is just because I think that for those first 3 months, we really had such an amazing connection, and he was so single-mindedly enthusiastic & seemed really serious & sincere, invited me to his parents' place, and I found out later he'd never brought a girl to meet his parents, although I came as his "friend" or whatever, I still felt that meant he was taking his enthusiasm about me seriously.

I probably wasn't ever really clear with him about how I felt about him. And I'm not sure if it's even relevant to tell him anymore, or how I'd do that, or if that's the last thing I should do right now.

So sorry this was so long, but I didn't know if I could leave out any of the above to be clear. There's obv lots I did leave out (I know, hard to believe ;) )

Okay...is this any clearer? Any hope? Even if I can't restore our relationship, I feel like I'd like to come clean with him anyway or something, somehow, just so I don't have any regrets in future about having been too scared to be open with him when we were both feeling awesome about each other. Any advice re that part at least, if it's the best I can go for at this point?

Sorry if this whole thing seems way too neurotic or pathetic :p I just really felt we had a special connection & I'm really disappointed in myself & sad that I managed to deflect and quench all his sweet & amazing enthusiasm, caring, generosity, etc. etc. :(

Thanks again and forgive the length!
 

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You approach him one last time and calmly, but firmly, ask for an honest and respectful discussion. Offer an apology for whatever you did wrong and ask if you can make amends. If he STILL refuses to explain things, either you hurt him too terribly to get over, or he's being a total jackass. In both cases you pack the emotional baggage up and move on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The only thing which could get me to close off forever would be something along the lines of betraying my trust about being vulnerable.

And my ex wife of course.
I hope I didn't do that...if I did, then I should just stay out of his way, is there no way I could regain his trust?

And if I didn't do that, then what's the best thing I could do to start rebuilding his trust/restoring what we had before if at all possible? (Preferably as quickly and effectively as possible lol)

Thanks so much
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
This reminds me of the Zen proverb, 'If you aim for it, you are turning away from it.' I would permit him the space to cool down and process whatever bothers him.

The alternative, which I think is better, is to seek a more emotionally available partner who meshes with your communication style and emotional needs. Three months is a long time to wait for someone to get his head out of his butt, no matter what did happen.

Take care.
Great advice, thanks!

I actually did this, and that explains why it's been 3 months: I spent about a month after "the incident" first figuring out that it was even an incident, then feeling awkward & trying to do things to make it better, but prob doing the opposite instead; after that month, I decided to just forget it & I stopped writing him, then after about a month of not being in touch, I started seeing him at events and he started trying to talk to me again, etc. So I tried to take his cues and reciprocate, started texting him again etc., but then again now, I find myself sabotaging, sending mixed signals and not sure if I'm supposed to address anything that happened before or just pretend it never happened, etc.

That's why I decided to ask for some 8-specific advice, as it seems hard to break through the shell, and I really did start to believe it. So wondering if it really is he just genuinely doesn't like me anymore, wants to be hostile really from a non-positive root, or if it could still be from hurt, which may mean that he may somewhere still want to reconnect, if he can actually trust me again for good reason.

I think I am trustworthy, I never cheated on anyone, I think I cared as much for him as he seemed to have cared about me, and I think what happened between us is pretty much described here: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/enneagram-type-7-type-8/ (8 & 7 potential relationship trouble spots). Which means, it could be fixable. Just not sure how.

Any new thoughts? I think it was mostly me with the head up...in unproductive places ;)

Thanks so much
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The only thing which could get me to close off forever would be something along the lines of betraying my trust about being vulnerable.

Also, drmiller100, if you have a chance to read my (sorry, long!) reply to Kikyo, could you lmk if anything in there sounds like what you describe, something you couldn't get over? Or is it not that direct, thus forgivable?

Thanks so much either way
 

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I actually did this, and that explains why it's been 3 months: I spent about a month after "the incident" first figuring out that it was even an incident, then feeling awkward & trying to do things to make it better, but prob doing the opposite instead; after that month, I decided to just forget it & I stopped writing him, then after about a month of not being in touch, I started seeing him at events and he started trying to talk to me again, etc. So I tried to take his cues and reciprocate, started texting him again etc., but then again now, I find myself sabotaging, sending mixed signals and not sure if I'm supposed to address anything that happened before or just pretend it never happened, etc.
I took the OP to mean that you had tried to talk with him but your attempts were snubbed or met with hostility and denial. If that is incorrect and you have indeed given him ample space to collect himself, then you need to assert yourself and request a frank, no-bullshit discussion about the problem. 8s respect strength and perhaps he will honor that request. Ditch him if he doesn't.

Personally, I think it is ridiculous to have to put your foot down because your partner acts like a child. Something to think about.

The description you linked sounds quite toxic. To be honest, if that is an accurate picture of how you two have been relating to each other, then fixing this, if it should be fixed, is definitely going to require therapy. If you can even get him to agree.
 

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The only option I see is to demand or request that you really sit down and talk and you demand him to listen to you and hear you out and you want to know wtf is up with him. Being direct and to the point is key. If he still refuses to listen and denies there's a problem, there's nothing you can do about it, honestly. Then he's too entrenched in his own perspective to be willing to see any other way, at which point the more you try to convince him otherwise, the more offended he may get and try to snuff you out even further. He may try to blame you a lot for what you've done, so you should just explain to him how you see it. There's not much else you can do about it.

Just approach him and say you have a problem and really make sure that he understands that you do (not just "hey, can we talk", but "we need to sit down and talk because I have a problem"). Be direct and honest. Key is that you would be vulnerable to him first, he'd appreciate that more and may be more willing to open up too, once you do. He probably feels hurt as you wrote, so it is important to make sure you are receptive to that because 8s can be very focused on their own feelings in relationship issues, to the point it overshadows everything else. Just don't ask him right away to be vulnerable because it may just make him more stubborn, since he likely doesn't trust you anymore, and doesn't think you are entitled to those feelings.

If he's willing to give you that listen then maybe he can come around, but like what others suggested, I am not sure I think he's worth your time, though I can sympathize with his situation. There are better guys out there.
 

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Smiles.... I can see all this playing out.

An 8 can be heavy handed, overly serious, jumping in too deep too soon, which scares hell out of a 7. An 8 JUMPS IN, the 7 dabbles on the surface, testing the water, taking their time.

The 8 sees this as the 7 playing games. The 7 sees the 8 as being overbearing, demanding, and impatient.

When I learned to understand the 7 more, I learned some wonderful things from the 7.

If you are SERIOUS about wanting to spend time with the 8, I would find the energy to be direct and HONEST. We value truth.

One thing a 7 desires is to not hurt someone's feelings. The 7 will oh so carefully phrase things, and posture things to never hurt someone. This can make them to me among the most kind of people.

The 8's gift is Truth. We value Truth, and we give Truth. IF you want to date the guy, decide to Date him. Tell him you are a flirt, but you are HIS. You will have to be vulnerable before he will be this time.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I took the OP to mean that you had tried to talk with him but your attempts were snubbed or met with hostility and denial. If that is incorrect and you have indeed given him ample space to collect himself, then you need to assert yourself and request a frank, no-bullshit discussion about the problem. 8s respect strength and perhaps he will honor that request. Ditch him if he doesn't.

Personally, I think it is ridiculous to have to put your foot down because your partner acts like a child. Something to think about.

The description you linked sounds quite toxic. To be honest, if that is an accurate picture of how you two have been relating to each other, then fixing this, if it should be fixed, is definitely going to require therapy. If you can even get him to agree.
Oh sorry I guess I wasn't so clear; no I just tried to apologize not so directly, like I'm not amazing at being open, esp when initiating, so when I tried (mostly via written, not so much in person), it always seemed to come out either vague or prob not so sincere cuz I wasn't really speaking from my heart.

He did seem to come back when I gave him space, so hopefully that means I didn't hurt or annoy him irreparably, which is nice to know, but then I still kept inadvertently closing down communication, not even just about "us" but I still have reactions that seem to pull away, but also it could be from others' voices in my head, which tends to confuse a situation, and makes it even harder for me to just flow & be normal again lol.

What did you mean by "Personally, I think it is ridiculous to have to put your foot down because your partner acts like a child" -- Did I put my foot down, or you mean my acting like a child should be more forgiven...?

Also, I did take him aside once in person a few weeks ago and ask if I could ask him something privately & he was totally amenable, which was awesome (good sign, right?), but then I didn't know what to say, as I didn't know I'd see him that night, so I asked him something about some project we ha done together, what happened re something... Truth is, I did really want to know, and it was a bit personal, and in my 7 mind and fear of being vulnerable, it actually felt like it was at least a stepping stone to openness, but I think he may have been expecting something else, understandably, and he responded sounding pretty annoyed. I didn't get why until much later, after my silly fearful 7 defenses were down & I wasn't feeling scared or "threatened" anymore I guess, so then I could see more clearly that this was the time for openness, and that he was open to it...and that I again kinda blew it.

***Can I be open in an email instead of having an in-person version of this blunt convo, which it seems all you guys are recommending is the best next step, which is awesome, to get such consensus :) Thanks so much!!***

BTW, I did always find that when I asked him a direct Q or said something a bit more open, I was actually always surprised that he generally answered totally straight & honestly, whereas so much of the time, it had seemed to be about not saying things out loud, having defenses up, or making jokes & kind of talking around things, or even opposite sometimes (like, does it make sense that he'd occasionally try to set me up with other guys he knows?? Again, we hadn't defined whatever was going on with us, and I think he was reading from me that maybe I wasn't into him at times, but he'd often ask me if I'd go out with ________ (name every guy he knows one by one lol), or if I find _____________ attractive). I usually had read this as him trying to find out who I found attractive, which he also asked me open-ended a few times, but once or twice he really told me he wanted me to go out with some guy he knows, and that he was going to call him to set it up & seemed pretty insistent... Does this fit with the rest of the (partial) picture I've presented thus far? Does anyone understand this behaviour, perhaps from an 8 perspective?

Also, in the link I didn't relate to everything it said, just certain things. Like he'd start telling me things like why don't I just become a stripper. Then when I'd ask back, "You think I should become a stripper?" He'd say, "Well, I wouldn't pay to see that but..." Whereas he very obviously found me attractive for a long time, so I assumed comments like that were more coming from a place of he "doth protest too much," does this seem reasonable? He also, once his hostile phase had begun, asked me if I'd ever be a prostitute, then proceeded to ask me if I'd sleep with certain people for different amounts of money (hope I'm not making it seem like this was a large percentage of our convo topics lol). Anyway, at some point he interjected that for him, he wouldn't pay me, I'd have to pay him lol. It was pretty funny, but it didn't actually sound like a total joke when he said it; I think he said it partially to try to make me feel rejected in reaction his having felt rejected before, or maybe just random ego thing? I also once mentioned that some guys have an ego thing that they want people to think girls are into them cause it feeds their ego, and he said that it wouldn't feed his ego for people to think I was into him, it wouldn't mean anything to him, blah blah (whereas he had been telling me that he wants to train me to do sales because hot girls should be doing sales, and I heard his younger bro describe me as "beautiful and sexy" at some point, when we'd first met, so...doesn't seem to fit, does it?

But 8s please help me out here -- he does usually do a really convincing job of sounding detached & totally uncaring when he says not-nice things like this...What percentage chance is there that he really just means it, that maybe I did things that really pushed him away, and now all the awesome feelings he'd had for me had turned so extremely non-positive? And what percentage likelihood is there that it's just a decision he made, to shut me out lest I hurt him again, but the nice feelings may still really be there somewhere underneath?

Thanks again so much everyone, you guys are truly awesome!!!
<3 <3 <3
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The only option I see is to demand or request that you really sit down and talk and you demand him to listen to you and hear you out and you want to know wtf is up with him. Being direct and to the point is key. If he still refuses to listen and denies there's a problem, there's nothing you can do about it, honestly. Then he's too entrenched in his own perspective to be willing to see any other way, at which point the more you try to convince him otherwise, the more offended he may get and try to snuff you out even further. He may try to blame you a lot for what you've done, so you should just explain to him how you see it. There's not much else you can do about it.

Just approach him and say you have a problem and really make sure that he understands that you do (not just "hey, can we talk", but "we need to sit down and talk because I have a problem"). Be direct and honest. Key is that you would be vulnerable to him first, he'd appreciate that more and may be more willing to open up too, once you do. He probably feels hurt as you wrote, so it is important to make sure you are receptive to that because 8s can be very focused on their own feelings in relationship issues, to the point it overshadows everything else. Just don't ask him right away to be vulnerable because it may just make him more stubborn, since he likely doesn't trust you anymore, and doesn't think you are entitled to those feelings.

If he's willing to give you that listen then maybe he can come around, but like what others suggested, I am not sure I think he's worth your time, though I can sympathize with his situation. There are better guys out there.
Thanks so much! Really seems to make sense.

Does it still work tho if we haven't really been seeing each other so much lately? Would it work if I sent an email that was (a bit??) vulnerable, and that wouldn't pressure him to answer or be vulnerable himself yet, but would give him space to decide if, how & when and he'd reply? Or is it better in person?

Also, he's been hinting to me that he started dating someone in the past few weeks. I asked him if it's serious & he said "nope". But then another week or so later, he was making reference to his "girlfriend"...which also may not be serious, and I don't see him sounding giddy about her like he was with me...but I'm not sure if this kind of blunt convo is appropriate if I think he's seeing someone, even if it may be just a rebound or a time-filler. I actually asked him (via text) after he told me it wasn't serious, if it's just to try to fill the void a bit, and he said, yup. Should I let it go for now if there may be someone else in the picture, or should I still just state my truth and let him decide what he may want to do about it?

Also, 8s, another fear I had about being vulnerable with him (as an 8 perhaps or with the vibe I sometimes read from him) is that he may just be collecting ego boosts, and that if I open up to him & tell him how I'd been feeling, then it may be like "game over" and he now has evidence that he "won" and I'm sometimes scared of him exploiting that...not that he *ever* did anything like that with me thus far, thanks goodness, and I do trust him on that level I think, but he's a little unpredictable & I know that with the fragile ego issues & the fact that I'd hurt him before & he seemed a little keen to try to reject me and shut me out, combined with my fear of vulnerability that exists independent of him, it all combines to make it extra hard for me to open up to him I think... Is there any way to gauge this "risk" level? Is being vulnerable the only way I could possibly get his armor to melt again...? Allow him to start trusting me again?

Thanks again so much for everything; really awesome advice & clarity. Thank you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Smiles.... I can see all this playing out.

An 8 can be heavy handed, overly serious, jumping in too deep too soon, which scares hell out of a 7. An 8 JUMPS IN, the 7 dabbles on the surface, testing the water, taking their time.

The 8 sees this as the 7 playing games. The 7 sees the 8 as being overbearing, demanding, and impatient.

When I learned to understand the 7 more, I learned some wonderful things from the 7.

If you are SERIOUS about wanting to spend time with the 8, I would find the energy to be direct and HONEST. We value truth.

One thing a 7 desires is to not hurt someone's feelings. The 7 will oh so carefully phrase things, and posture things to never hurt someone. This can make them to me among the most kind of people.

The 8's gift is Truth. We value Truth, and we give Truth. IF you want to date the guy, decide to Date him. Tell him you are a flirt, but you are HIS. You will have to be vulnerable before he will be this time.
Wow, amazing depiction! I don't think I saw him as too demanding or overbearing though, I actually really liked and appreciated the attention & openness :) I just was hesitant to open up myself, as you'd said, "testing the waters"...

Do you think it'd be more effective for me to be open with him in person? Or is an email okay, esp if I'm not sure when the next time I'll see him... Also, is it okkay to write him other, not quite as open things in the meantime? Or will that just make him think I'm playing games, even tho I'd be being sincere, until I lay my cards out a bit?

Thanks again for all!!
 

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I either really hurt him or annoyed him, not sure which... Does it make a diff?

Either way, he almost totally shut down, says hostile things, and even denies that our relationship was ever different, which is clearly not so...he used to text me all the time, invite me out, get shy/smiley when I was around, tell his friends he thinks I'm awesome, etc. Things were like this the first 3 months we knew each other.

Now it's ~3 months later; I think most things I did to try to make it better, may have done the opp :(

Any advice?

Thanks in advance!
this behavior sounds a bit passive-aggressive for an 8. 8s are generally very upfront about problems and would have told you bluntly what was wrong/what you did. he sounds more like a 9, a 6 or some sort of heart type if I had to guess (my answer as to how to address the actual issue will depend on which).
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for the thought & insights!

I'm not 100% sure he's 8, but I'm pretty positive he is *not* a 9. He seems to love conflict lol. Prob not a 6 either, but I could see aspects... I think he's either 8w7 or 7w8, and I'm pretty sure the former, but again, not totally sure...

But do you still think it doesn't fit for an 8 if telling me bluntly what I did "wrong" would involve telling me that I hurt him cause he had feelings for me and didn't think that I felt the same way and that he may've felt I was making a fool of him?? I'm not sure how many 8s that would be that open about something like that, esp with someone who never really verbally acknowledged that she felt more than platonic for him, and never really admitted she'd want to be in a relationship with him...

What do the 8s here think: Any chance you'd be blunt about that? Or just about everything besides your own vulnerabilities? Would you even do the former in a marriage or other trusted relationship that's obviously reciprocated? Or is it still difficult even there during the times you feel hurt or slighted or bruised?

Thanks again!
 

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He sounds like a fucking asshole and you sound a bit desperate and unsure of yourself. This isn't going to end well if you don't disengage.
 

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this behavior sounds a bit passive-aggressive for an 8. 8s are generally very upfront about problems and would have told you bluntly what was wrong/what you did. he sounds more like a 9, a 6 or some sort of heart type if I had to guess (my answer as to how to address the actual issue will depend on which).
Not when it comes to feels though, if they don't trust the person in question about it.

Thanks so much! Really seems to make sense.

Does it still work tho if we haven't really been seeing each other so much lately? Would it work if I sent an email that was (a bit??) vulnerable, and that wouldn't pressure him to answer or be vulnerable himself yet, but would give him space to decide if, how & when and he'd reply? Or is it better in person?

Also, he's been hinting to me that he started dating someone in the past few weeks. I asked him if it's serious & he said "nope". But then another week or so later, he was making reference to his "girlfriend"...which also may not be serious, and I don't see him sounding giddy about her like he was with me...but I'm not sure if this kind of blunt convo is appropriate if I think he's seeing someone, even if it may be just a rebound or a time-filler. I actually asked him (via text) after he told me it wasn't serious, if it's just to try to fill the void a bit, and he said, yup. Should I let it go for now if there may be someone else in the picture, or should I still just state my truth and let him decide what he may want to do about it?

Also, 8s, another fear I had about being vulnerable with him (as an 8 perhaps or with the vibe I sometimes read from him) is that he may just be collecting ego boosts, and that if I open up to him & tell him how I'd been feeling, then it may be like "game over" and he now has evidence that he "won" and I'm sometimes scared of him exploiting that...not that he *ever* did anything like that with me thus far, thanks goodness, and I do trust him on that level I think, but he's a little unpredictable & I know that with the fragile ego issues & the fact that I'd hurt him before & he seemed a little keen to try to reject me and shut me out, combined with my fear of vulnerability that exists independent of him, it all combines to make it extra hard for me to open up to him I think... Is there any way to gauge this "risk" level? Is being vulnerable the only way I could possibly get his armor to melt again...? Allow him to start trusting me again?

Thanks again so much for everything; really awesome advice & clarity. Thank you!
If he started seeing someone else, I'd say he's moving on so you should as well. You can apologize to him, but chasing him now seems a little naive and unrealistic.
 
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