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Discussion Starter #1
I have an extremely introverted friend, and what starts out as a friendly debate between us always ends up where she/he somehow always turns it into something it wasn't before, to where it is some complaint about me. I usually try to somewhat salvage it by pointing out the things she/he missed to where it seems quite obvious she/he is wrong, but then I get a know-it-all asshole rep for that, even if it is true. "Insensitive", I've been called, but now I find I've had quite enough of people where I it seems I must tip toe around them and always give comfort and never call out any flaws.

However, although it seems quite normal for many, I do not find myself angry or upset in the slightest after any sort of argument, because I know I am right and just typically enjoy the back and forth. Its not as if I believe I'm always right, I just see things logically and don't let my emotions get in the way -- which is how I can prove my side.

Do any other ENTP's feel this way during/after fights? Similar stories and experiences are welcome.
 

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Ad hominem ''emotional attack''. Even worse. l won't keep someone like this around, l don't understand how weak the mind has to be to resort to character assassination.


Actually, it's one of my screening methods. Very, very rarely has it been something that occurred with myself and close friends, and when it does it's very serious.

Honestly though, l don't like fighting and l can become disturbed by it. l won't feel offended, per se, but l just find it doesn't vibe with me.
 

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One of the worst feelings in the world
You're just getting started in what you think will be a great debate
And someone stops it because they "Don't want to fight"

People take things too personally and don't seem to see the difference between the two.
Exactly! I can understand how some people dislike fighting (both physically and verbally) but in all honesty I enjoy debating. I think there is a difference between the two.
 

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One of the worst feelings in the world
You're just getting started in what you think will be a great debate
And someone stops it because they "Don't want to fight"

People take things too personally and don't seem to see the difference between the two.

YES THIS!!!! Pet peeve!! I don't know how many times this has happened to me but I've lost count. Why is a debate or "interesting conflicting idea exchange" a FIGHT? When people are tiptoeing around you, afraid to openly disagree with something and state their opinion and reasoning. But then, gladly behind closed doors, are openly expressing their real opinion to someone else after the fact. It seems childish and cowardly. Go on, throw your hat in the ring, and let's tango...
 

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YES THIS!!!! Pet peeve!! I don't know how many times this has happened to me but I've lost count. Why is a debate or "interesting conflicting idea exchange" a FIGHT? When people are tiptoeing around you, afraid to openly disagree with something and state their opinion and reasoning. But then, gladly behind closed doors, are openly expressing their real opinion to someone else after the fact. It seems childish and cowardly. Go on, throw your hat in the ring, and let's tango...
Its all just a game, really:cool:
 
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There's a difference between argument and conflict. So frustrating that people don't watch Monty Python anymore ...

 

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There's a difference between argument and conflict. So frustrating that people don't watch Monty Python anymore ...

Should teach that in schools, they should
 
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I know. We did formal debates in English class, except, they were quite horrible. We never covered formal grammar, or linguistic structure or logic in school. We spent countless hours discussing why William Shakespeare might be an anti-Semite. The grammar handouts were a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy ....

... and we were left to figure everything out on our own. Pet peeve: people being conditioned to be more hysterical. There's a difference between sincere emotion and just pointless drama.
 
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I know. We did formal debates in English class, except, they were quite horrible. We never covered formal grammar, or linguistic structure or logic in school. We spent countless hours discussing why William Shakespeare might be an anti-Semite. The grammar handouts were a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy ....

... and we were left to figure everything out on our own. Pet peeve: people being conditioned to be more hysterical. There's a difference between sincere emotion and just pointless drama.
I really hate discussions about weather famous people were racist or this or that because it simply doesn't matter. Why discuss the person William Shakespeare when you can read what he wrote?

Anyway, I fee you.
I had the same english teacher for three years, and she was terrible. Last year she had a segment in which she would put a debate topic on the board, you would write about it, and then discuss it. I did enjoy this part, and would often say more than most people in the class. The part that I didn't like was after we were talking she, as she put it "Got her turn to speak" and said her opinion on the topic, and that was the end of the discussion. You weren't allowed to respond to her, and she presented it like it was the right opinion. I'm still mad because I wasn't able to disagree with some of her statements, because I had good arguments. Some of which she never even responded to.
Anyway, the point of that is that we weren't even learning anything. She didn't teach us how to argue, she just had us discuss things for a period so that she didn't have to grade anything.

Luckily for my senior year I'll have an english teacher who everyone raves about, and who my ESTP brother loved and actually learned from. He's not an English person, but she made it interesting for him.

And to respond to your pet Peeve: Not only do people get more hysterical, they expect you to. Someone accidentally spilled their glass of water on me the other day, and I was asked by two different people if I was Ok, and she offered to switch seats with me, and it was like they expected me to be upset. It was probably no more than a quarter cup of water. Why would I be upset?
 

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yeah, with the people who form personal attachments to their arguments. Say what you will but the broken record keeps playing and the fact that it's possible my attack against their argument isn't a direct attack on them is apparently a inconceivable concept. First, they go out of their way to start the conversation about said topic in the first place and keep pressing their point. Then when you choose to play, they "don't want to fight" = "I'm no longer listening to anything you're saying but I just know that you're disagreeing therefore attacking me so I'm going to have an unnecessary emotional fit unless you shut up" = "game over: I lost"
 

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The most common complaint that I get is that I'm trying to convince the other person I'm right, or get them to admit that I'm right.

Well, yea? That's the point of the game! To win! The content matter doesn't really matter, it's just a vehicle for a nice game of UTTER RHETORICAL DESTRUCTION!
 

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Monty Python for the win!!!! *SQUEELS*

Eh-hem. Okay, back to the OPs question. Yes. I love a good debate, but when I'm in one I'm rather detached and objective about it. This drives people bonkers and I HAVE been accused of being a Vulcan. No, I'm not Autistic, it's just how I do things since it works for me (and I will admit that it's darkly amusing watching people get all pissy about my LACK of reaction, especially to obvious trolling).

Mercutio, what you describe of your friend is a classical defensive reaction when someone realizes that they feel threatened by a difference of opinion. I really wouldn't worry about it, or even try to salvage it. People who are going to behave like that aren't worth your time. And those that like you for who you are, will appreciate you sticking to your guns and being yourself.
 

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What frustrates me most is my lovey dovey friends who just on the social justice bandwagon without knowing a single thing about society or justice. People, just stop whining and stop crying. Stop believing that idiot who makes good money being on the picket line.

In Canada you can hire your own activist! And my idiot friends blindly support their cause! And stop getting your political ideologies from song lyrics; read everything from Aristotle, Smith, Marx and then decide. I can even have my protest registered at city hall, maybe they'll bring tea and crumpets a television crew and a police force and maybe we can have a reality show and bank some coin.

Rhetorical obliteration is nice but there's something to be said about having a worthy opponent. My role is to exchange ideas and thoughts. I'm not one to give a masochist the pleasure of being hurt. Sometimes it's nice to guide someone on their path to ignorance. Other times it's nice to keep distance, smile and watch them dig themselves deeper and deeper ...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Nobody appreciates a good debate anymore, they just shut down...after the ball starts rolling and they know they are gonna lose ;)
 

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Thanks aiyokusama and the rest of you for your input :) A lot of people I know just generally find arguments of any kind undesirable, and explain it by saying its their "fear of conflict".
I will say this one more time: a debate is not conflict! It is just another way for us to have fun, I wish some of the other types could understand that.
 

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I have an extremely introverted friend, and what starts out as a friendly debate between us always ends up where she/he somehow always turns it into something it wasn't before, to where it is some complaint about me. I usually try to somewhat salvage it by pointing out the things she/he missed to where it seems quite obvious she/he is wrong, but then I get a know-it-all asshole rep for that, even if it is true. "Insensitive", I've been called, but now I find I've had quite enough of people where I it seems I must tip toe around them and always give comfort and never call out any flaws.

However, although it seems quite normal for many, I do not find myself angry or upset in the slightest after any sort of argument, because I know I am right and just typically enjoy the back and forth. Its not as if I believe I'm always right, I just see things logically and don't let my emotions get in the way -- which is how I can prove my side.

Do any other ENTP's feel this way during/after fights? Similar stories and experiences are welcome.
This always pisses me off. Seriously, if I try to debate with my parents when I'm bored, I get shut down almost immediately by my parents. I'm thinking it's because my ENFP mother is preventing what she perceives as conflict, and my ISTx father just rolls along with it.

The most common complaint that I get is that I'm trying to convince the other person I'm right, or get them to admit that I'm right.

Well, yea? That's the point of the game! To win! The content matter doesn't really matter, it's just a vehicle for a nice game of UTTER RHETORICAL DESTRUCTION!
Agreed. TOTALLY TOTALLY AGREED. I love love debating, and thank goodness there's a debating league in my city. However, I'm really nervous about participating in CX debate next year, because I primarily make my own arguments in Worlds.

What frustrates me most is my lovey dovey friends who just on the social justice bandwagon without knowing a single thing about society or justice. People, just stop whining and stop crying. Stop believing that idiot who makes good money being on the picket line.

In Canada you can hire your own activist! And my idiot friends blindly support their cause! And stop getting your political ideologies from song lyrics; read everything from Aristotle, Smith, Marx and then decide. I can even have my protest registered at city hall, maybe they'll bring tea and crumpets a television crew and a police force and maybe we can have a reality show and bank some coin.

Rhetorical obliteration is nice but there's something to be said about having a worthy opponent. My role is to exchange ideas and thoughts. I'm not one to give a masochist the pleasure of being hurt. Sometimes it's nice to guide someone on their path to ignorance. Other times it's nice to keep distance, smile and watch them dig themselves deeper and deeper ...
Oh god, those friends preaching on Facebook annoy me so much. I feel like cutting them down ever single time they post, but I remind myself that it's a pointless endeavor because they will still follow their beliefs.

As a debater, my Ne snaps into place with my Ti and all those half-formed attacks are melded in a way that will allow a crushing blow on the other team. Then, I use my arguments to back up my attacks hard, but at that part, I start to falter somewhat. My Ne goes into overdrive and I start to ramble, but my arguments are done and as a result, I still win anyways as long as my partner backs me up. Emotions don't go much farther then "your last comment was incredibly stupid, and I must correct that", but all in all, I'd call myself a good debater. I just need to improve on the rambling part and learn to use subtle methods to obtain my goal, and that is all.
 

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What frustrates me most is my lovey dovey friends who just on the social justice bandwagon without knowing a single thing about society or justice. People, just stop whining and stop crying. Stop believing that idiot who makes good money being on the picket line.

In Canada you can hire your own activist! And my idiot friends blindly support their cause! And stop getting your political ideologies from song lyrics; read everything from Aristotle, Smith, Marx and then decide. I can even have my protest registered at city hall, maybe they'll bring tea and crumpets a television crew and a police force and maybe we can have a reality show and bank some coin.

Rhetorical obliteration is nice but there's something to be said about having a worthy opponent. My role is to exchange ideas and thoughts. I'm not one to give a masochist the pleasure of being hurt. Sometimes it's nice to guide someone on their path to ignorance. Other times it's nice to keep distance, smile and watch them dig themselves deeper and deeper ...
Now the music isn't even good enough to get your angsty teen inspiration from, the new social justice is regurgitated directly from Tumblr.

Please understand that every 14 year old Tumblrite is the essence of tolerance, and that nothing in the world existed before 2007 :tongue:
 
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Thanks aiyokusama and the rest of you for your input :) A lot of people I know just generally find arguments of any kind undesirable, and explain it by saying its their "fear of conflict".
I will say this one more time: a debate is not conflict! It is just another way for us to have fun, I wish some of the other types could understand that.

Actually debate IS conflict at the most basic, since one person holds X position and the other person hold Y position which is at odds with X. Hell, I'm inclinflict with you right now for disagreeing with your post! Oh the horror! The DWAMA!!! Run in fear! Run in FEAR!!!!!

Um...yeah, no. While a lot of people treat conflict as a scary boogeyman, it really isn't. And it's certainly not a bad thing (if anything it's amoral and depends on context to be otherwise). It's just an agent of change, whether we are talking philosophical ideas, draining a marsh for a strip mall, or toppling a political regime.

Personally, I seek out conflict. I LOVE testing my ideas. I'm not satisfied with what I have been floating around in my head. I want to see how they stand up to questioning and people poking them with sharp sticks. Because that will help me to reexamine and refine my ideas, which I see as a very good thing.

Apparently some people find my attitude utterly baffling.
 

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Here's an interesting thing:

I knew an ENTP 8w7 that I'd be having a lovely time talking about shit with, and suddenly he'd be trying to clarify it wasn't an "argument"/wasn't him attacking me/was fine that i had my own views. I had thought all this was obvious, until he said so, and was a little confused why he felt the need to say so, but then realized he must deal with ppl a lot who take such discussions the wrong way...perhaps especially people with my demeanor?? I dunno. I ended up thinking his clarifying habit pretty adorable, even though I bet he hated feeling like he had to do that with ppl in general (but hadn't yet figured out it wasn't necessary with me :tongue:).

But the point there is that i never felt attacked by him, even when he thought it might seem like he was.

Whereas, I also know this ENTP 8w9, who nearly every time we talk, it feels like he's attacking or criticizing something I've said. Neither of us listen to each other or understand each other well, and we are constantly hitting vulnerable spots, it seems. These, I consider arguments because there's a high level of emotion involved on both ends, as well as criticism/judgement without conveyed love (i say conveyed, because we very much care about each other, but somehow attempted love gets perceived as non-loving actions on both ends). It's so confusing :bored:. Perhaps I am the only one exhausted by it, but that's beside the point.

Anyways, at least to me, there is a very clear distinction between arguing (but really discussing) a point and arguing (but really attacking a person's way of life/abilities). With the first, I enjoy it immensely. With the second, things degenerate into actual damage quickly.
 
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