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Discussion Starter #1
I'll take My own MBTI type as an example.

ISFP: Fi - Se - Ni - Te

How an ISFP can use and develop their Ti for example, for it to be able to perfectly think in a logical, disciplined manner? This is gonna be a weird question: How do Non-Fi users even build their Identity, do they use Ti instead? This creates an even more so confusing question to me here; If everyone uses both Fi and Ti at some level, does it means that there is a duality to the self, one is rational/logical (Ti), another one is emotional/moral/Values (Fi)? I've heard that everyone has personal values, but if a certain personality type who doesn't have Fi, how do they build their personal values or how do they value things at all?

It is still unclear to me with the whole Ti, Fi, Te and Fe to me. I know my understanding of "one is rational/logical (Ti), another one is emotional/moral/Values (Fi)" might be outright incorrect and stereotypical, then what differenates Ti and Fi, and how do we identify the function pattern in ourselves?
 

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Fi and Ti are the personal identity functions yes. Fi is my own moral code, Ti is my own logical code. There is no polarization. One pretty much excludes the other. If you're Fi your thinking will be expressed outwardly (Te), if you're Ti, your emotions will be expressed outwardly (Fe), THAT's where the polarization is.

Now I know some people believe their judgement axis can clash. Someone has Te common sense, they may be able to analyzes if their stances make sense using repressed Ti analysis. Someone has Fe harmony-seeking, they may be able to self-reflect on their own inner morals through their repressed Fi.

Many people believe in that like CS Joseph for instance, but I think it's just deeper self-awareness, nothing to do with shadow or repressed functions.
 

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Ti users do use Fi, they just tend to repress Fi by exercising Ti judgments.

For instance, my ENFP friend and I were talking about men wearing makeup. I said I don't find makeup on men attractive (Fi value judgment). I then wondered out loud if that was hypocrisy, because I wear makeup and expect to be more attractive as a result (Ti judgment of logical consistency). My ENFP friend said it's not hypocrisy, it's just preference.

Using Ti, I tend to question my Fi values because they strike me as illogical, logically inconsistent (hypocritical), or simply arbitrary. If I do a certain thing, like wearing makeup, why should I dislike others doing the same? What's the logical basis for me preferring one thing over another? But you can see with my ENFP friend, he just takes preferences at face value.

I have no idea how Fi-doms use Ti, as I'm not one. In my experience, they can and do apply logic in select situations, especially at work or school. They might have trouble consistently applying Ti in real life because their Fi value judgments are too "loud" and drown out their Ti, like how Ti represses Fi. This might be why they have Te instead of Ti in their function stack, because Te is focused outward and doesn't require an inner war with Fi. Likewise, for Ti users, it's way easier to focus on what other people like and value. It doesn't mean Fi-doms have no Ti at all or vice versa. It's simply more efficient for them to use Te because it creates less cognitive dissonance.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Alright, so I'll also bring up a situation, and tell me whether it is Ti dom or Fi dom.

I'll take the phone call with my Mother and out discussion about me deciding to grow long hair. My decision to grow long hair was my own preference, an inspiration, when I told her so, she told me that It would not work on me and I should not do that, I was angered by her objection, cause her objection to me seemed very controling, because it comes accross to me as her disrespecting my preferences and choices I make and pretty much signals me that I should not do it, because "Other women will not like this or find you attractive", it would simply seem to me to be illogical and inconsistent for me to not to grow long hair just because others dont like it. But then you might think whats the reason for me to tell this to my mother, I'd say it is because of security reasons. I would be very annoyed that others will not like it because they dont have a preference for it, because it would indicate like they dont like me as a person, in short I have preferences but I dont talk about them and enforce them on others.
 

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Alright, so I'll also bring up a situation, and tell me whether it is Ti dom or Fi dom.

I'll take the phone call with my Mother and out discussion about me deciding to grow long hair. My decision to grow long hair was my own preference, an inspiration, when I told her so, she told me that It would not work on me and I should not do that, I was angered by her objection, cause her objection to me seemed very controling, because it comes accross to me as her disrespecting my preferences and choices I make and pretty much signals me that I should not do it, because "Other women will not like this or find you attractive", it would simply seem to me to be illogical and inconsistent for me to not to grow long hair just because others dont like it. But then you might think whats the reason for me to tell this to my mother, I'd say it is because of security reasons. I would be very annoyed that others will not like it because they dont have a preference for it, because it would indicate like they dont like me as a person, in short I have preferences but I dont talk about them and enforce them on others.
That sounds like Fi to me.

If a male Ti-dom decided to grow his hair long, he would simply do it and probably not consult anybody. He would have concluded, based on his Ti analysis, that the advantages of having long hair outweigh all the disadvantages including social rejection. So, regardless of what anybody might say or think about him afterward, he would feel confident that he's making a sensible decision.
 

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That sounds like Fi to me.

If a male Ti-dom decided to grow his hair long, he would simply do it and probably not consult anybody. He would have concluded, based on his Ti analysis, that the advantages of having long hair outweigh all the disadvantages including social rejection. So, regardless of what anybody might say or think about him afterward, he would feel confident that he's making a sensible decision.
It sounds like Fi to me, too. And it's similar to your previous example about make up, in that he might understand the social rejection as logically inconsistent/hypocritical to start with, because it's socially acceptable for women to have long hair but not for men to have the same. And especially after making this Ti judgment (of logical inconsistency), he would disregard the social rejection.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
That sounds like Fi to me.

If a male Ti-dom decided to grow his hair long, he would simply do it and probably not consult anybody. He would have concluded, based on his Ti analysis, that the advantages of having long hair outweigh all the disadvantages including social rejection. So, regardless of what anybody might say or think about him afterward, he would feel confident that he's making a sensible decision.
You would need to consult about long hair anyway, because you might need tips on how to take care of your hair, what to do to maintain It's healthy form, how to start it. To ask for help you will need to eventualy seek approval from others, because their ability to give you tips might get impaired with their preferences on how others should be in their viewpoint.

To say that it "Sounds like Fi" because it seeks approval sounds very inconsistent to me. Why Ti, because of Inferior Fe, would not seek out approval to make sure they are secure with said decision? Note that what I'm saying is, Te is about external thinking, and would less be concerned about social norms than say Fe, note we are talking about Societal norms and preferences, not reasonings/thinking that a Te would seek; "Oh long hair is acceptable on woman in society because she is a woman", which has no reasonings to it why it is acceptable to women only. Enneagram 6 is common amongst ISTP's, which is an Enneagram specificaly that seeks to seek out security, thinkers can feel fear just as Feelers, Fear does not become non-existant because you are a Thinker type. The main source of cause of Societal Fear here, is predominantly your parents and close friends, the Fear effect is severely less when you are just in public place with random stranges who less likely to care, but I digress it could be different depending where you live.
 

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The hair: Sounded like strong Ti to me. Getting annoyed about the other person trying to persuade me, because I value my freedom and I feel insulted that they think I didn't already think it through. But also inferior Fe, caring about others' approval to some extent.
 

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Fi: ''I don't care what society thinks, I'll do this just to spite them.''

Ti: ''I do actually care what society thinks, so by doing this maybe it'll provoke them into re-thinking things''
 

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You would need to consult about long hair anyway, because you might need tips on how to take care of your hair, what to do to maintain It's healthy form, how to start it. To ask for help you will need to eventualy seek approval from others, because their ability to give you tips might get impaired with their preferences on how others should be in their viewpoint.

To say that it "Sounds like Fi" because it seeks approval sounds very inconsistent to me. Why Ti, because of Inferior Fe, would not seek out approval to make sure they are secure with said decision? Note that what I'm saying is, Te is about external thinking, and would less be concerned about social norms than say Fe, note we are talking about Societal norms and preferences, not reasonings/thinking that a Te would seek; "Oh long hair is acceptable on woman in society because she is a woman", which has no reasonings to it why it is acceptable to women only. Enneagram 6 is common amongst ISTP's, which is an Enneagram specificaly that seeks to seek out security, thinkers can feel fear just as Feelers, Fear does not become non-existant because you are a Thinker type. The main source of cause of Societal Fear here, is predominantly your parents and close friends, the Fear effect is severely less when you are just in public place with random stranges who less likely to care, but I digress it could be different depending where you live.
Well if it were me, I would not bother to consult anybody because I can find the information myself on the internet. I think this is generally true for Ti-doms, because what people tell you in real life is usually biased if not false altogether. While you can't completely avoid bias, doing your own research on the internet feels much more secure. I would feel less secure getting tips from my mother because of higher chance of bias, as I said.

The reason I said it sounded like Fi is because it seems like you had already decided you want long hair but then you consulted your mother to help confirm your decision. That indicates to me 1. you're not confident in your own reasoning and feel better if other people back you up, and 2. you highly value other people's subjective preferences.

1 indicates Te, not because Te users can't do their own reasoning but because they're much more likely to try to bounce ideas off other people. It helps them think. Ti users think better on their own. Other people's input can seem like interference or just noise. 2 indicates high Fi. You value subjective preferences (yours and others') even if they're illogical or arbitrary. Ti-doms also care about other people's values, but not as much because on some level they believe that all subjective preferences are arbitrary and therefore unimportant. What they care more about is being liked and valued as a whole. I don't care so much if other people don't like my hairstyle or my clothes. I care about whether they enjoy my company and want me around.

What you said here:
"I would be very annoyed that others will not like it because they dont have a preference for it, because it would indicate like they dont like me as a person, in short I have preferences but I dont talk about them and enforce them on others."

is way more Fi than Ti. From a Ti perspective, Fi blows everything out of proportion emotionally. People don't like my hair = people don't like me as a person. It makes sense to an extent emotionally because you'd think if people feel a negative emotion about your hair, they would feel that negative emotion every time they see you. It doesn't make sense logically because you =/= your hair and therefore, how people feel about you =/= how they feel about your hair. You're a sum of all your parts including your hair, so how they feel about you depends on many different factors.
 

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Ne: I can use conceptually pretty decent. It’s not an orient for me. But if speaking to an Ne user I tend conceptualize it fine. I tend to admire Ne from distance. However don’t usually care to apply personally. But I can recognize it’s need and gifts and see when pointed out

Te: Is there as a reserve. While it’s not my orient. I can spot it’s use. I can respect it’s use if it’s logically consistent with my Ti Hence usually don’t have issue with TJ. Even if I don’t agree they articulate point where it usually makes sense so usually I can respect it.

Si: Fucken annoying as hell to me. I tend to not care to be bogged by these details. I tend to spot Si because they are so specific over the most annoyingly mundane and usually pointless shit. I mean I usually understand it’s for their clarity, understanding, and comfort. But seriously wtf. Who cares who said, she said, wtf or what this that happened down to the fucken detail. I don’t give a fuck. Round it up and call it good. I’m an estimator and implied person in this way. It just doesn’t need to be ‘that’ specific. Unless it’s actually brain surgery. Which usually it never is with an Si user. I actually find SFJ & NFP to be most annoying with this wtf. Round it up. Call it good. Please just fucken kill the subject.

Fi: I mean I can respect Fi when it’s truly out of their humane principles. Like they live it. They apply it. But Fi just for the cause that is a hypocrite can fuck right off.
 

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I'll take My own MBTI type as an example.

ISFP: Fi - Se - Ni - Te

How an ISFP can use and develop their Ti for example, for it to be able to perfectly think in a logical, disciplined manner? This is gonna be a weird question: How do Non-Fi users even build their Identity, do they use Ti instead? This creates an even more so confusing question to me here; If everyone uses both Fi and Ti at some level, does it means that there is a duality to the self, one is rational/logical (Ti), another one is emotional/moral/Values (Fi)? I've heard that everyone has personal values, but if a certain personality type who doesn't have Fi, how do they build their personal values or how do they value things at all?

It is still unclear to me with the whole Ti, Fi, Te and Fe to me. I know my understanding of "one is rational/logical (Ti), another one is emotional/moral/Values (Fi)" might be outright incorrect and stereotypical, then what differenates Ti and Fi, and how do we identify the function pattern in ourselves?
Ti is emotionally detached. Ti is objective, it seeks to solve problems with an objective answer such as 2+2=4 where the answer is the same for everyone.
Fi is emotionally invested. Fi is focused on the subjective landscape of personal relationship from a position of their own internal perspective. What do I feel and value, what makes me special, who else is like me. From the internal reference point you can then relate to others through things like “how would I feel in their situation?”
Fe Is focused on interaction with the social landscape. Fe values are subconscious, you simply know what is right from wrong based on your upbringing, and it upsets you when others don‘t conform to these innate values. Fe type can either be assertive, attempting to control the social environment, or submissive, forcing the user to blend in with others. (Fi does something similar with agreeable and disagreeable types)
Te is focused on obtaining objective outcomes as efficiently as possible. It will happily dismiss emotional and accuracy concerns to reach the objective. It is associated with aggression/anger. (Te doms can be picked by theIr use of the facial muscles muscles associated with snarling/teeth baring)

When it comes to using shadow functions it is easiest for Te/Fe assertive types to use the other Je function as its simply a matter of changing their focus.
Ti/Fi on the other hand is difficult to flip between because they are polar opposites, particularly Fi > Ti since emotionally detachment is almost beyond comprehension. For Ti > Fi it does tend to develop somewhat as you age. The Ti/Fe user start off life with a very poor sense of identity. You basically view everyone as the same, and don‘t comprehend why people act differently to you. Over time you do develop your own Identity, and shadow Fi can be strongly developed in people with struggles who turn to introspection. The difference between Fi and shadow Fi is that conscious shadow Fi will have often have a negative perspective of identity. You become highly aware of your individual identity but desire to fit in and just be normal due to Fe. As someone with both strong Ti, and conscious shadow Fi I actually have to meet the requirements of both and Fe values before taking action. Naturally having dual Ji functions inhibit Taking action in the worlds because it takes enormous mental resource to come up with unified solutions.
 

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You use every function for a different task. There isn't a function that isn't in your "stack".

An ISFP uses Ti as a demon function. It raises his bad nature, his bad manner, until he learns how to use it.

And how to use it, well, it's up to anyone's guess. You're basically angelic if you use your eight functions.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Fi: I mean I can respect Fi when it’s truly out of their humane principles. Like they live it. They apply it. But Fi just for the cause that is a hypocrite can fuck right off.
I'm just curious why do you always speak illy of Fi and IxFP's in general?
 

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Wondering why one can't use both Fi & Ti, depending on the situation? For example, my job is in software development area and how I as ENFP could build solutions without Ti logic - to computer it won't make sense what you feel inside or what's your bias - it understands only step by step objective logic :) That might be as well the answer to questions rised above - you can develop your non-primary funcs by using them a lot - same way as that kind of work has developed my Ti usage a lot.

However, while deciding which approach you should use for your solution, I often express myself as "hmm, I feel this approach seems quite good" (most likely Fi, right) - and this judgement is mostly as correct as if made by Ti users. Or maybe it's still Ne+Te+ experience from Si, I don't know. And I've noticed that my Ti-dom colleagues often use quite similar approach - while working on something totally new you can't always foresee which is objectively best approach and thus make subjective guesses about what it could be.

Still, I can clearly see that in some cases Ti-doms see easily through new software architecture, framework or toolset while for me it takes some effort to reach that far. But maybe the difference is more about suffering from inf Si as a bunch of new details could drown me more easily while dealing with them is more balanced for Ti doms.

I guess we all use all functions but the difference is, which ones our mind naturally prefers over others, especially when the situation doesn't require to use functions which aren't your first preference. I've seen from somewhere (can't remember where) that our shadow funcs might be as strong as our main ones but we don't just have concious control over them.
 

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MBTI completely fails in this aspect; Socionics already solved this issue and created a model where all types use all the 8 functions in different ways.

Take a look at this:
 

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Meh, Socionics sounds like Ben Shapiro to me: It just spits a metric crap ton of information that makes your head spin and you figure it sounded very intellectual so it must be right.

I'm of the belief that 4 functions allow you to do anything. They have strengths and weaknesses for sure and depending where they stack, but I don't subscribe to this notion that when you have to fix your computer for instance, you have to access Ti mode. Functions are not skills.
 

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Functions don't limit what you can do. Thinking that types without Ti in their four are incapable of using logic, or that types without Fi in their four are incapable of having personal values, is just uninformed and ridiculous.
 
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Functions don't limit what you can do. Thinking that types without Ti in their four are incapable of using logic, or that types without Fi in their four are incapable of having personal values, is just uninformed and ridiculous.
Exactly. Ultimately Thinking, Feeling, Sensing and Intuition are a spectrum and allow you to do anything. It's just that some aspects of life can be easier or more difficult depending on your type.
 
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