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Capitalism has its flaws, but I agree with you about debt and the "perpetual growth" idol. Sitting around worship at the feet of the almighty FICO. A good book I read, "The Unincorporated Man." You've probably read it, but in case you haven't, it's about a future where every living person is "Incorporated". and from a young age people buy percentages of your stock. This is how you fund things like college or other training. all persons in this society are slaves to the largest shareholders the way businesses are and you get to see the effect. You also get to see the effect of an "unincorporated man" because a rich person from our era is Frozen and awakes in this future in secret with treasures that insure he has no need to incorporate.
The whole time I was reading this I kept thinking that this is science fiction... but this doesn't sound unlike the present. we sell our lives to banks in the form of student loans which will only disappear if you pay them off (buy back your shares). Until then, your life is dictated by that debt. Throw in credit card debt, car debt, etc. and we the borrowers are, as Solomon said, slaves to the lender(s).

suddenly a salary that would be sufficient to live comfortably becomes too little because we can't afford to live and service our debts at the same time.
Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws


Mayer Amschel Rothschild
 

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I was thinking the same, what @Saiyed Handsome Dyke said. I don't know for sure if I'm an INTP or an INFP, I've received feedback suggesting either. But I digress.

I, too, struggle with the dichotomy between my value system and the reality we live in. I tell friends and family I wish I could end all human life, for the betterment of all other life on the planet, and I usually get replies like "oh, so you want me to die", to which I think to myself "how selfish and arrogant of them, to believe that their life is more important than any other living thing." Then there are those whom argue "you can't change the world but you can still help improve your community, your life," to which I say "if you had cancer, would you be okay with the surgeon only removing some of it and letting the rest continue to deteriorate your health?"

Point is, in 20 years I haven't found a way to reconcile my conscience and reality.

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What's so good about the rest of the world?

Every other animal on this planet is either predator or prey. They either eat plants or eat each other.
They don't know what they are doing, they just feel hunger when they need food, they feel fear when they run from prey, and they feel excruciating pain when they are being eaten alive.

Nature is a slaughterhouse, the idea that Humans need to leave it to its own devices because it would be so much better off without us here is absurd.
Nature has always been a monstrous state of affairs, the more of nature that Humans destroy, the better it is for every animal that would have had to exist in it.

We romanticise nature to absurd degrees, we even call it 'Mother' nature. The simple and obvious fact is that it is the most sadistic and neglectful mother that ever lived.
 

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@Folsom You're absurd, no appreciation for the complexity of the web of life. It's about natural order...and science Life killing other life isn't beautiful, but it's necessary to maintain balance, except for humans. We're the only thing on the planet that disrupts the balance; a woman was attacked and killed by a Great White on the coast of Maine recently, a first for the New England state, and they want to cull the seals that draw the sharks there, not to maintain balance, but to protect their tourism economy. To me, and thousands of other citizens, that is absurd. I've read or heard hundreds of cases of humanity messing with the balance for personal gain or pleasure, cases upto 200 years old. Some predators are capable of killing for pleasure, like cats and Orcas, but they still don't threaten the entirety of a species.

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@Folsom You're absurd, no appreciation for the complexity of the web of life. It's about natural order...and science Life killing other life isn't beautiful, but it's necessary to maintain balance, except for humans. We're the only thing on the planet that disrupts the balance; a woman was attacked and killed by a Great White on the coast of Maine recently, a first for the New England state, and they want to cull the seals that draw the sharks there, not to maintain balance, but to protect their tourism economy. To me, and thousands of other citizens, that is absurd. I've read or heard hundreds of cases of humanity messing with the balance for personal gain or pleasure, cases upto 200 years old. Some predators are capable of killing for pleasure, like cats and Orcas, but they still don't threaten the entirety of a species.

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'The web of life' there's that romanticising I mentioned.

Life killing other life is necessary to maintain the balance of life killing the right amounts of life so that more life isn't killed, even though it will be killed anyway.

It's OK for life to kill other life as long as it does it in a way which we could define as balanced, so that more life can be created to kill more life in a balanced way.

What an exceptionally beautiful system.

Don't overcomplicate it or romanticise it and life is just a brutal web of absurd nonsense.

I don't care about maintaining or disrupting the 'balance'. My issue was with you saying that humans should go extinct to save nature.

Nature is not worth saving and it would be better for every living creature and every potential future living creature if nature was removed from existence.
 

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I don't really dwell in the realm of social justice or human/animal suffering, not because I don't think it's important, but it's something out of my control anyway, so why bother wasting energy on it? I do try to reduce my contribution to injustice though. For example, I don't like how animals are treated in factory farms, and that's why I'm a vegetarian. I'm also conscious about energy and resource consumption. Some people might classify my lifestyle as minimalist, but I just do what makes sense. Why own stuff when the money can be growing exponentially in the market? I do have fancy gadgets, like an 8 year old MacBook Pro. Many people would just replace it with something newer, but I just upgraded the HD to an SSD a couple years back to give it extra years of useful life. As for human trafficking and child abuse, I have zero exposure to those (fortunately?), and I don't think I know what human trafficking means, maybe just a fancy word for slavery?

How much of the injustice we see is just a distorted view of reality painted by the media? I'm sure that the media want to capture people's attention by showing us the worst or the best stuff. They probably care more about amassing subscribers and audience than revealing the truth.
 

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Do what you can, when you can. No one asks any more of you or any less.

Personally whenever I hear or see anything unjust, I feel really bad. Especially when it happens right in front of me and i cant do anything.. but I just have to forget about it, and put my mind into something else, or else it'd be a waste of time worrying when I can do nothing about it. You can also detach yourself from the world by realizing that all things physical and material are finite.
 

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This came up with my wife the other day. She avoids the news for the most part, but some friends were talking about some of the most horrific things that are going on in parts of the world. I pick things up off the peripheral, so unfortunately I've heard of a lot of it. It was tough to see her bubble burst like that. Not that she's naive enough to think the world was all awesome, but there's no reason to wallow in a cesspool you can't do anything about either.

It was tough for me years and years ago. I would get angry at everyone in the world for allowing so much of it to be stupid crap. But, since I've learned to take more notice on things I can, or will actually help with. Aside from that I will focus on the good stuff in the world. Because there is both. There is beauty and there is ugliness. You don't want to ignore all the ugliness but you can't let it be all you focus on. Not that the other stuff never gets to me, but I can't help with everything, I can only do my little part.

Edit: Oh, and I spend as much time as I can in my own little worlds.
 

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It took you a pandemic to sit down and realize the world is full of things you don't like? A few of us already know the real world isn't perfect and full of crud. If you're helpless, cry about it then.
 

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It took you a pandemic to sit down and realize the world is full of things you don't like? A few of us already know the real world isn't perfect and full of crud. If you're helpless, cry about it then.
I agree but most people are just ignorants about political or economical issues , even extremely smart people are just slaves in their lefty perspectives ... and i'm not even right-wing . right or left are just collective creations in which the people get fuck up sooner than later but the political benefits aren't even in a debate.

The world is not worse than it was ... actually we just need to read a little of history to learn how humanity was before and we need to be glad 'cause we were born in first world countries . I'm from chile and i'm not one of them but i was pretty lucky to be born in a high class working family.

And come on ... To have the slave mentality isn't nothing new , Antonio gramsci created this Bs of how to change the culture and brainwashing the people , education , universities ,ect. to reach socialism.( that is why you have high iq people being totally useless in any form of thinking rather than their field).

When i was a kid actually i read marx, engels , lenin , mao , trostsky ... all of those lefty shit and then i read hayek , mises , rothbard , friedman ,ect.

If you are one of those who protest against the system but do not create nothing usefull ...you aren't the solution you are the problem.

pd: i expect monetary knowledge ( they do not teach you that in univerties or schools ).
 

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I agree but most people are just ignorants about political or economical issues , even extremely smart people are just slaves in their lefty perspectives ... and i'm not even right-wing . right or left are just collective creations in which the people get fuck up sooner than later but the political benefits aren't even in a debate.

The world is not worse than it was ... actually we just need to read a little of history to learn how humanity was before and we need to be glad 'cause we were born in first world countries . I'm from chile and i'm not one of them but i was pretty lucky to be born in a high class working family.

And come on ... To have the slave mentality isn't nothing new , Antonio gramsci created this Bs of how to change the culture and brainwashing the people , education , universities ,ect. to reach socialism.( that is why you have high iq people being totally useless in any form of thinking rather than their field).

When i was a kid actually i read marx, engels , lenin , mao , trostsky ... all of those lefty shit and then i read hayek , mises , rothbard , friedman ,ect.

If you are one of those who protest against the system but do not create nothing usefull ...you aren't the solution you are the problem.

pd: i expect monetary knowledge ( they do not teach you that in univerties or schools ).
Wow, there's a lot you wrote there that I don't agree with, but I don't really care enough to "debate" or argue about it. If you think that "left and right are just collective creations" then maybe you should learn more about the French Revolution, which is where those terms originate from. Plus there are plenty of research studies that prove that liberal and conservatives actually view the world in a different way and have different responses to certain stimuli.

Also, you're stuck on the communism vs economics false dichotomy. It's not an either or choice and the world is much more complicated than you're oversimplified framing of left or right. Although I guess if you live in Chile, the first question I'd ask you is what your opinion on Pinochet is. I'd say he wasn't a good person and did some evil things in the name of fighting communism during the Cold War.
 

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Well... actually i don't give a "#$ about right or left definitions either ( If i have to do it i'll use an economic perspective not a romantic one ) but i just see how the world is destroying their monetary system and getting more in debt , meanwhile instead of fighting the useless political castes , people just want more gorvernment control and all of those progresist ( who like to talk about how to help people but they do not much ) without knowing are creating the bigger monster of all .... The slave mentality , the left , the state cult .

I mean ... if we still want to believe in that circus of monkeys , called politicians, progresist ,social fighters ; to solve anything ... we are just blind.


Pinochet was a dictator , i don't have to defend one but i guess the only good thing he did was calling the chicago's boys ( they followed friedman ideas ) to create the economic system which in reprospective it worked amazingly well , i mean ... after haiti , Chile was the most poorest country in sudamerica after the chicago's boys ideas Chile reached the hightest gdp per capita in 2015 or something . You can't blame the economical model for the creation of political castes ( left and right dances together in their parties xD ).

You used the concept of liberalism badly too , i can't blame almost all the world does it ( in america ) .
I mean... Biden is an ignorant socialist and the other side is Trump , a federal's puppet.

At the end of the day they are from the same side , the political corporation .
 

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I don't cope with it, because I have very low expectactions. If you read some history you will see that for the vast majority of human history the world was full of injustice, suffering and inequality. And our times are quite stable are easy times to live a life, but we should think how to not make things worse.

I also think that there is a serious problem in human nature, which makes things almost impossible to change in better direction - to change the world you need a lot of power. So usually only Big organizations (like powerful countries) can execute world-scale changes, but Big organizations are also greedy, selfish and evil.
 
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Dear OP. I think this is at least the thread of the month, if not of the year. Nice stimulation for discussion.

Id love to deep dive here where you guys are diving in. But Im seeing you already can put together pretty well the constructual problems and how its cyclicity is a major reflection of nothing more than a desire for lazyness meaning having a dictator offering tyranny for the sake of peace and safety with the help of all the mentally slower toys yielding trails of bones related to priveledges from it. But how it this being achieved and what the insight would be for the change to occur. Its say material poverty closely linked to loose morals based on natural personality based inclinations is the main enabler. So if that is erased, the healing process will start. The first thing about it is that we should somehow jump off of collaboration with fiat currencies. Or even gold. Just trade based sets. Then, wed have the land governance related issues. But as theres no lack of it, at all actually, if one has already settled then the rest should go a bit further on for their own lot. And how to keep peace between them when their animals or people cross over to the neighbours side? Well, simple, by having a higher than love levels of counsciousness. Because as that requites humbleness it will be harmless and actually even constructive collaborative and cooperative interactioning. And then just focus on spir development, and compatibility in breeding.

But a world without sin. Would already be heaven. So the solution is not to liquidate all the filth, but to let this Earth go to the bin and the valuable material end up where ever it was meant to unite and become constructive.

..like that it kinda goes around while not coming anylonger around.
 

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If the wise user above disappears, we'll know for sure.

Now I don't know about you, but I keep my pitchfork up my ass. Now I never leave home without it cause you never know these days. They could come at you any moment and take away your freedoms!
 

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I don't cope with it, because I have very low expectactions. If you read some history you will see that for the vast majority of human history the world was full of injustice, suffering and inequality. And our times are quite stable are easy times to live a life, but we should think how to not make things worse.

I also think that there is a serious problem in human nature, which makes things almost impossible to change in better direction - to change the world you need a lot of power. So usually only Big organizations (like powerful countries) can execute world-scale changes, but Big organizations are also greedy, selfish and evil.
I'm actually very optimistic , i love life and i love people ( I'm almost a funny grumpy hermit but that is another matter xD ) thinking otherwise is losing againts the procress of evolution . Destruction and creation are part of the cycle ... eventually the shit is gonna die sooner than later and we are gonna be betters than we were.

I don't have problems with big organizations .... my only problem is how they finance themself .
For example ... Apple , i don't like apple at all ( i have an used iphone Se that i bought for 50 bucks xD ) but they create production , jobs , compete , ect ( Btw if you own apple stocks you should sell them in short term ).
Basically ... If they make mistakes they just die ( The people are the ones who's buying their products ).

In the other side we have the parasytes ... Politicians , Who ,global organizations , wall street ( there is truth inverstor there but alot of bs too ) , social organizations , banks , ect. If they make mistakes they don't lose anything and we will pay for that and our childs and their childs , ect.

The most emblematic case for this is Argentina , You should learn about that country 'cause :

-They started using the same economic and philosophical liberty ideas of U.s, and they were the most rich country in 189x or something but they started to use the concept of "social fights" to gain control againts individual rights( peron and evita).

-From being the richest country in the world now they are number 90 and going to the biggest economic collapse in history and they have the most unpayable debt in history.

-The big capitals are just escaping from there 'cause the state steal everything from you.

-Their taxes are fucking stupid , basically you have to work for 2,5 persons to maintain yourself.

-Their politicians are richer than americans ones xD ( in my country a senator have a superior wave compare to an american senator and they are alot more ... which is fucking stupid ). Pd: Sudamerica have the worse money's state management in the world , most of the people still have the socialist mentality xD.

-They are going to an hyperinflation 'cause there is not production to mantain the creation of currency ( at some point one peso was the same value of one dollar ... right now, you need like 130 pesos to buy one dollar.





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Hmm, I am like I would obsess over the changes to improve them and then later think why bother let them realize it and change it themselves, then spend my time playing video games.
 
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