[Hunger]

So 8s fear Vulnerability, huh? How would you respond to the following?

Being Shamed?

Being Ignored?

Being Belittled?
a)Personally
b)Your efforts
c)Your abilities

Feelings of Inadequacy?

Being Lonely?

What is your definition as vulnerable?

 

[MegaTuxRacer]

Best way to describe it is "Fuck you."

 

[Scelerat]

So 8s fear Vulnerability, huh? How would you respond to the following?

Being Shamed?

Bitch please....

Being Ignored?

Your loss, I'm awesome.

Being Belittled?
a)Personally
b)Your efforts
c)Your abilities

A) Really, and this coming from [insert list of the person's flaws]
B) Really, and this coming from [insert list of other person's failures]
C) See A and B.

Feelings of Inadequacy?

Get better, eradicate weakness constant self-improvement.

Being Lonely?

Perfect, time to figure out the next steps in the plan.

What is your definition as vulnerable?

Being in a duel and equipping your opponent with a better weapon than you have.

 

[DiamondDays]

Being Shamed?

I usually laugh. I rarely actually feel shame though. I fake

Being Ignored?

Does not happen to me that much. If it is in a social group kind of situation where everyone is talking to everyone i talking over everybody i just bide my time, if it is in a non social function i will make space for myself in the conversation. If it is by an SO or something i will leave them space if it was nothing important, or demand attention if it was important.

Being Belittled?
a)Personally

I've rarely met a person who has done this to me. One person comes to mind though, and i did exactly what Scelerat said. Shut her up pretty good too. I actually like this person though. She's tough.

b)Your efforts

This has never happened.

c)Your abilities

Neither has this.

Feelings of Inadequacy?

These i do have. If it's in an area that is important to me i will remedy the inadequacy, if it is unimportant to me i will just disregard the feeling and the situation because yes i may be inadequate in this particular situation but in the long run it is not something i actually can or want to focus on at the moment so it does not matter to me.

Being Lonely?

I don't get lonely very often at all. I do get cabin fever tho. I handle it by either distracting myself by myself or by... SOCIALIZING!! I have a great circle of friends, family and girlfriend so loneliness is rarely a problem to me even if i am physically alone.

What is your definition as vulnerable?

To me being vulnerable is to be able to actually talk about my feelings as is, really letting someone in to the nature and causes and depths of my feelings. I feel a lot, i just keep it tightly locked up so no one, even me, notices for the most part.

 

[Hunger]

Being in a duel and equipping your opponent with a better weapon than you have.

You could kill a man with a feather if you had the imagination.

 

[Animal]

Being Shamed?
I thought I had no shame at all until I studied enneagram. It's hard to imagine how someone could embarrass me. I can always laugh at myself. If someone's intention is to shame me, they are in for a grave disappointment.

Being Ignored?
If I care about someone enough to notice they're ignoring me, I'd contact them. If they still wouldn't respond to me, I'd stop caring pretty fast and move on with my life. This hasn't happened to me in a situation with a long-term friend where I thought it was unwarranted. I choose my friends wisely. If my SO is ignoring me with intent (rather than just busy doing his own thing, which is fine)... he's done! Why would I stick around for that?

Being Belittled?
a)Personally
Oddly enough I can't remember this ever happening in a way that really shook me; not since childhood anyway. The worst accusation I can think of, which really stood out to me, about 9 years ago.. was, "You have no shame! You need to have some shame!" That accusation didn't hurt my feelings at the time (my response was something like, "Why should I?") ... but as I began to realize that shamelessness is not confidence, fearlessness is not courage, and apathy is not strength, I thought about this remark. I wouldn't call it being 'belittled' though. It was an honest observation.

People make rude, belittling remarks about my voice sometimes if they don't know me, since I speak in a whisper. Like "you should stop smoking" or "Partying much?" This happens everywhere - when I go to the store for groceries etc. It doesn't phase me. I'll either entertain myself with a clever comeback or just ignore it.

b)Your efforts
Hmm, I've never been called 'lazy' and I don't need praise for my efforts. My efforts happen because I have a goal, and I'm more concerned with obtaining that goal than having my efforts be acknowledged.

c)Your abilities
Not everyone will like my work or relate to my abilities. I'm okay with that. Being "belittled" used to happen a lot actually. I would go to a venue to play a show, and in my whispery voice I would tell the sound guy that I'm the singer and I need to have the sound adjusted a certain way. More than one sound guy laughed in my face and made rude remarks about me being a singer when I speak in a whisper. Like, "Get a real singer!" ... this didn't phase me. Every single time, when I stood behind the mic for mic-check, I blew their minds. Some of them said, "Wow," right into their mic, and others told me after the show "I'm sorry for doubting you."

I'm confident in my abilities. I take well to constructive criticism. If I'm gonna have the balls to sing through a whisper I know some people won't like it. I do it for me and for anyone who happens to be touched by it.

I can't think of another situation where I was belittled for my abilities. I only do a few things, but I do them well. Hence my old signature, "If it's not worth doing in excess, it's not worth doing at all."

Feelings of Inadequacy?
This is hard. Like I said, I stick to the few things that matter. But ever since I had a chronic illness, there have been situations in which I feel less 'adequate' or strong than I knew I was once capable of, and that hurts. I also can feel inadequate in the relationship department because I'm too sensitive within, but also too independent and hardened - two opposite extremes, I know. *raises fist at sx and sp*. I deal with all of my feelings by writing songs, writing novels, exercising and taking long walks with my headphones.

Being Lonely?
I've never felt lonely. I am blessed with a great family and a few amazing friends. I spend an inordinate amount of time alone and for the most part, it fulfills me. The closest I can get to 'lonely' is missing a specific person, and even that is rare. (Plus in most cases it's solved with a phone call or a text.)

What is your definition as vulnerable?
Needing someone else, being terrified of carrying on without them. Being so attached to someone that my very integrity is at stake because I could not help but throw it away in order to be with them. The idea of it makes me feel like my skin has been burned off and my insides are exposed to be burned in the sun and eaten alive.

 

[Scelerat]

You could kill a man with a feather if you had the imagination.

Yes, but it helps not giving him a Ruger Mini-14 with an extended clip before trying to kill him with said feather. Also, I'm not an ENTP, I can't think of 740 ways to kill someone with a hard candy, toe-nail clipping and a piece of toilet paper.
@Animal I'm the same with with a conscience most of the time, I don't actually feel bad for doing something, so much as I feel bad for potentially screwing up an opportunity for myself.

 

[Animal]

Hmm, I should add one thing about being belittled. This used to happen in my family when I was growing up, and I started out very very sensitive and hurt by every criticism. But I was reactive and would bite back ever since I could speak - I never 'sat back and took it.' I learned, very young, how to turn it around on the other person, hit them where it hurts, and stand up for what I believe. Outside the context of 'self-defense' I was compassionate as hell, gave my toys to other kids in kindergarten, was very sweet, soft and kind. But I was sensitive, and proud, and would not let anyone have the upper hand. By the time I was 12 I had formed the solid habit of simply shutting off so most things won't phase me emotionally, and also, a habit of defending other people from bullies and training them not to react to the bullying. This is probably why my skin is so thick that I can't think of any times as an adult that 'being belittled' shook me up deeply.

People belittle other people to get a reaction which makes them feel powerful. If you don't give them a reaction, it's unlikely to continue. It works like a charm. In order to get a reaction out of me, you have to earn my trust and make me love you and actually care what you have to say. Then you can meet the biting, crying monster who will do anything for you.

 

[DoctorYikes]

So 8s fear Vulnerability, huh? How would you respond to the following?

Being Shamed?

Denial, baby.

Being Ignored?

Volume.

Being Belittled?
a)Personally

Anger.

b)Your efforts

Anger.

c)Your abilities

Anger.

Feelings of Inadequacy?

Rare, but it usually loops back around to anger/drive/harder/faster/better!

Being Lonely?

No, just... no. Solitude is a precious commodity.

What is your definition as vulnerable?

'Weakness' springs most immediately to mind, but I'm old 'n wily enough to think that this is a glitch in my overall mechanism.

 

[Animal]

Anger.



Anger.



Anger.

Lol, this was hilarious. This is how I was as a kid but later I made a habit of indulging in rage music and exercise. That way most of my rage and angst is purged every day, and it takes a lot more to get under my skin. The people who earn the ability to 'get to me' are the type of people who would be straight with me but wouldn't belittle me. I can't even process the idea of being 'belittled' because why would I take someone's opinion to heart who doesn't approach me with respect? If someone is going to disrespect me they're not worth enough thought to even get me angry. Either you're with me, you're against me, or you don't exist to me. Few have managed to continue existing after they're "against me" but let me tell you, any time that happened there were confrontations and lots of rage music to be written.

As an aside, this is one of many reasons I can't decide between 9 or 7 wing. The 9 wing would be apathetic or stoical, 'this can't get to me' - and the 7 wing would go 'I'm above this.' I guess either way you go an 8 can end up being pretty 'cool' and hard to shake up. I still have a lot of rage but it's all mine, it's the fire that fuels my exercise, goal-focus and music. I love it and I indulge it on my own time, but it's my weapon to wield. I don't like giving others the power to ignite it against my will.

 

[CaptSwan]

Lol, this was hilarious. This is how I was as a kid but later I became more stoical and made a habit of indulging in rage music and exercise. That way most of my rage and angst is purged every day, and it takes a lot more to get under my skin. The people who earn the ability to 'get to me' are the type of people who would be straight with me but wouldn't belittle me. I can't even process the idea of being 'belittled' because why would I take someone's opinion to heart who doesn't approach me with respect? If someone is going to disrespect me they're not worth enough thought to even get me angry. Either you're with me, you're against me, or you don't exist to me. Few have managed to continue existing after they're "against me" but let me tell you, any time that happened there were confrontations and lots of rage music to be written.

I agree with this post to 100%. Now, I've found my center; I'm able to not feel that much anger anymore, but it still creeps out every once in a while. That's when I have to clear my head, usually with music or whatever method I come up with to regain control. But, otherwise, I'm now able to see everyone not in a mechanical-aggressive kind of way "Enemy-Destroy"; but more in a more open way.

 

[Animal]

I agree with this post to 100%. Now, I've found my center; I'm able to not feel that much anger anymore, but it still creeps out every once in a while. That's when I have to clear my head, usually with music or whatever method I come up with to regain control. But, otherwise, I'm now able to see everyone not in a mechanical-aggressive kind of way "Enemy-Destroy"; but more in a more open way.

I think since my father is a 7w8-8w7-3w4 with a 164 IQ, I was put to the test really young. He had a lot of rage and was critical, and I was a pretty easily angered kid. We had blow-up fights all the time. By the time I was 11 I learned how to dominate him. It happened because he had me cornered and had totally lost control of his temper, screaming with veins popping out. I said something calm, like "I'm willing to discuss this in a rational manner when you are done yelling." and "Keep going, let it all out." I stonewalled and took control. He stormed out, frustrated that he couldn't get a reaction, and left the house, slamming every door. Then he came back a few hours later with a present and a very heartfelt apology. I learned that's the way to win.

I don't want to make my dad sound evil, either. I was no easy ride. He probably had very good reason to be yelling at me, considering there was absolutely no way to get me to do anything I didn't want to do. I self-disciplined, did all my homework, aced school, practiced music.. but didn't want to be told I can't spend the night in the woods for instance. It's understandably frustrating. Overall he was a great father. But the clash of our personalities was extreme, and forced me to find ways to dominate and wield my temper instead of letting "it" control me at a very early age. We're super close now btw.

 

[CaptSwan]

I think since my father is a 7w8-8w7-3w4 with a 164 IQ, I was put to the test really young. He had a lot of rage and was critical, and I was a pretty easily angered kid. We had blow-up fights all the time. By the time I was 11 I learned how to dominate him. It happened because he had me cornered and had totally lost control of his temper, screaming with veins popping out. I said something calm, like "I'm willing to discuss this in a rational manner when you are done yelling." and "Keep going, let it all out." I stonewalled and took control. He stormed out, frustrated that he couldn't get a reaction, and left the house, slamming every door. Then he came back a few hours later with a present and a very heartfelt apology. I learned that's the way to win.

I don't want to make my dad sound evil, either. I was no easy ride. He probably had very good reason to be yelling at me, considering there was absolutely no way to get me to do anything I didn't want to do. I self-disciplined, did all my homework, aced school, practiced music.. but didn't want to be told I can't spend the night in the woods for instance. It's understandably frustrating. Overall he was a great father. But the clash of our personalities was extreme, and forced me to find ways to dominate and wield my temper instead of letting "it" control me at a very early age. We're super close now btw.

I've never had much problem with my father; because, although he has a short temper, I came to realize that the things he did weren't totally his fault; he was more a product of his education, and, to be quite honest; I was no easy kid to deal with. However, despite all that; he was very supportive and my home became my fortress against everything else in the world; and that "everything else" helped molding my rage against the world. I think I will make a thread about this (maybe today); since I believe it's interesting to find out.

 

[Hunger]

I agree with this post to 100%. Now, I've found my center; I'm able to not feel that much anger anymore, but it still creeps out every once in a while. That's when I have to clear my head, usually with music or whatever method I come up with to regain control. But, otherwise, I'm now able to see everyone not in a mechanical-aggressive kind of way "Enemy-Destroy"; but more in a more open way.

If I feel confident in my strength then every insult or attempt is kind of like a child punching a battle-hardened brute, I just laugh it off. 8s are the same, when they reach self-actualization there is no more need for them to assert boundaries or raise their temper. When they feel in control or immune to vulnerability they are naturally warm & charming, embracing the world & all it has to offer. When in the other hand they feel stressed by their own vulnerability they become like a werewolf trying to contain the beast. A reasonable 8 will conspire to use all his strength from "snapping" whilst those who haven't learned to use their head will use their fists or unleash their anger.

Personally I feel that 8s start off wanting to give endlessly of their selves, to be generous & prosperous, to live a life where everything is magnificent & magnanimous. Eventually life's rat race will bring out the worst in everyone & 8's natural generosity & magnanimity will be abused inspiring the feeling of being wronged. They will feel like displays of their softer intentions will only lead them to become abused & taken advantage off. The desire to live big & magnificent will be ever present although compressed into an unquenchable lust, but they will no longer give of their generous & magnificent natures to the world. Hurt by the abuse, they will not want to share that magnanimity with the rest of the world anymore, so they pursue it selfishly. This manifests in the power-hunger that 8 possesses.

The variant stacking, head fix & heart fix alter the dynamics of said 8 & to what end they pursue their lust, power, control, etc. Most 8s are very physical & expressive with their anger. Some 8s are more hard-edged & serious whilst others are a little warmer & rounder in personality. You get 8's with a strong head fix of 5 such as Don Vito Corleone who is a self-possessed & more thoughtful 8. Then you get brutal & unrestrained 8s like the character of Wolverine. Some 8's yet are bound to a code of honour, whilst others are inclined towards survival of the fittest. There's a whole spectrum of 8s. I dislike very much how 8s are pigeon-holed into one stereotype, it simply isn't accurate.

@Capt Swan, When you say you have found your center, you demonstrate an 8 who has found control, one that has been grounded. I think that it is vital for 8's to find that "grounding" influence in their lives. It is vital to their survival. When 8's have no "grounding" the whole world will turn against them as they lash out at every little thing.

It is important for an 8 to foster a purpose, a reason to keep themselves in check, so that they can grow in a direction rather than blow up all over the place in attempt to assert their power & control. Anyone who has as much passion & anger lying around as an 8 definitely needs to invest their energies into a purpose or a cause.

Openness is a sign of integration in everyone, however openness is an especially brave step for an 8 to take, since their natural magnanimity & brilliance was taken advantage of or abused earlier on in their lives.

 

[Animal]

Personally I feel that 8s start off wanting to give endlessly of their selves, to be generous & prosperous, to live a life where everything is magnificent & magnanimous. Eventually life's rat race will bring out the worst in everyone & 8's natural generosity & magnanimity will be abused inspiring the feeling of being wronged. They will feel like displays of their softer intentions will only lead them to become abused & taken advantage off.

Bingo. That is exactly it. "Too generous for my own good" was what I had to learn at a young age. The only way to survive was to 'shut it off' which does not bring me fulfillment. That generous nature is at odds with survivalism: if I give too much of myself until I have nothing left, I won't survive. I have to protect myself, and if I don't, then I am no longer the master of my own destiny. I'm just letting the world kick me around.

It is important for an 8 to foster a purpose, a reason to keep themselves in check, so that they can grow in a direction rather than blow up all over the place in attempt to assert their power & control. Anyone who has as much passion & anger lying around as an 8 definitely needs to invest their energies into a purpose or a cause.

Yes. "Passion and purpose," I have found, is the ideal lifestyle for me.

This is also why they say the best way to raise an 8 child is to give them outlets for their energy. Enroll them in a lot of activities they enjoy, give them something to do. My parents got this right. I did so many activities & was so dedicated to music & writing as a very young kid, with all their support, that I hardly ever slept. I don't think it's a coincidence that I learned to stay calm in a fight & let insults roll off by the time I was 11 and have only lost my temper a handful of times since then, and never for long. There's always been purpose in my life. My disintegration happened when I lost my voice & a lot of other opportunities I had worked for, thus leaving me with no sense of purpose.

Openness is a sign of integration in everyone, however openness is an especially brave step for an 8 to take, since their natural magnanimity & brilliance was taken advantage of or abused earlier on in their lives.

Openness, in an 8, would start with letting go of the notion that "I am the sole master of my destiny."

The growth for 8 would first require embodying the virtue of the disintegration point, type 5: non-attachment. What non-attachment really means is, you do something to do it, you love it to love it; you are not attached to an outcome. It is free of manipulation. So, you love in order to love, and it is fulfilling in and of itself, whether you lose that person or not. The pain is worth it because you loved, and you were not attached to the outcome. This allows an 8 to go back to being generous. You are generous because you are generous, and you don't shut it off because the 'outcome' of generosity seems to be that you're taken advantage of. Your generosity just is what it is. You still have a purpose and goals, of course, but regardless of what the outcome should be, the pursuit is worth it. This is type 5 non-attachment which is the virtue going along with the vice of avarice.

Avarice is also widely misunderstood. In my experience with 5s, it's not about material greed. Its about protecting their mind from influences from the outside world. Sort of like warding off mind control for the sake of thinking independently. In doing so a 5 can be unreceptive to thoughts and opinions and influence outside of their own mind, to the point where they will not even pursue anything concrete because that would be an influence that could overwhelm them, like an invasion of sorts. They hold very tightly, greedily, to "self."

As an 8, with this as our disintegration point, it's a little different - as a "lust type" and "body type" we'd be more likely to hold on to some worldly attachment as well as the sanctity of our own mind in isolation. To an 8, "sense of self" includes your house, your job, your friends, your things. For a 5, "sense of self" includes the mind. So when an 8 goes to 5, what starts to matter to him is mind control... holding back of the self from the world, which is the opposite of that generosity we have when we integrate. It is about withholding of yourself. To give back, we obtain the virtue of 5, non-attachment, so we can give again regardless of outcome. We are not attached to "being the master of our destiny" and "being in control." Type 5, if you think about it, has the ultimate control, because if all that is your 'self' is your mind, and you ward off outside influences, nobody can touch you; you are immune and the armor is strong. People can take things away from you that are 'of this world' - your house can burn down, you can lose your job, your body can fall to illness. But your mind is yours, and yours alone, to control at will. Hence the diagnosis 'pathological detachment' as a powerful defense mechanism. When an 8 disintegrates, it's about getting more and more and more control by detaching from all the things that matter to you; from other people. Trying to control the things that you still consider 'yours'. It's an almost sociopathic-looking tendency in an 8 because it's a lust for control and power in the real world (not just over your own mind) coupled with that detachment from the world, which is where the "ruthless goal-focus" comes from in the descriptions, "crushing everything in your way" etc. For instance, a disintegrated 8 would be Tywin Lannister in Game of Thrones.

Everything is strategic and it's all about retaining his power & influence, moving his family around like chess pieces in order to do so. He's not flailing around throwing temper tantrums. He's detached, cold, and calculated, with a strong sense of goal-orientation and no peripheral vision that would open up his compassion.

So , to become open to our generous nature again, non-attachment is the first step. These things aren't 'mine' but they are of the world. I am of the world. 5's also need to learn that they are not 'separate' from the world, they are part of it. Similarly 8s need to be part of the world rather than 'against' it. In short, it's about letting go of control. Accepting that you are not the sole master of your destiny; you are part of something greater, and letting go of the attachment to control. Imagine if Tywin Lannister could do that? Then he might actually be open to love his children and know who they really are. He would be truly generous, not just throwing money at them.


This is why it is more helpful to me, as an 8, to see it as a purpose rather than a goal. Yes, having a purpose necessitates goals and goal focus, but that is not what life is about. Life is about passion and purpose. Goals are just one way of expressing it. It's not that I would take my eye off the goal - because I am having a goal in order to pursue my purpose, which is fulfilling in and of itself; not because I'm attached to a specific outcome. If a specific goal gets thwarted, I would ideally feel it was worth it for the experience, and know deep down that I tried and I did what I believe in, and that's what life is about. The purpose is greater than that. There are many outlets for my purpose, and workarounds.

 

[DoctorYikes]

Well, as others have said -- You eventually grow out of getting consumed stupid by rage every time someone farts in your direction, but it still amuses me to cite the initial knee-jerk as my primary reaction because, well, it IS my primary -reaction-. That said, I'm also a middle-aged dude with kids and a real job and can't just wander through life acting on my impulses. In many ways it comes back around to that long-term strategic view that I'm probably pretty lousy at (Double whammy type 8, MBTI 'SP' type)... the short-term satisfaction of REVENGE! doesn't outweigh the long-term satisfaction of not getting fired and sent to jail.

Still, the knee-jerk impulses live there in me, resulting in such exchanges with my wife like the recent:

Me on Disrespectful Interaction at Work: "Idiot pissed me off, I wanted to just smash his fucking head."

Wife on Perspective: "That's not very Zen, the smash his fucking head part."

Me on Resignation: "No, not really."

 

[bionic]

I'm not consumed with rage. I'm consumed to control my rage.


It depends on the context of the situation as to how I act on it.

 

[Scelerat]

Half the time I feel like a caged animal in a sense, I kind of wish physical violence was accepted as a way of solving conflict like it was back in the day and it would be fine for me to hoist the black flag and start slitting throats. Plus, I think most people would moderate their behavior to be more acceptable if I was allowed to go ham on them.

 

[Animal]

I kind of wish physical violence was accepted as a way of solving conflict

Agreed. Much as my method tends to be 'use logic to make peace' - if people knew they could get punched, they'd probably be a whole lot more respectful.

The amount of assault charges and law suits that can happen to people who fight makes any kind of straight-up confrontation a very unattractive option to many, and makes cowardice and 'using the system' a more viable option. IMO, most conflicts are better solved by a brawl than a beaurocracy, and all of these laws are among the many reasons people don't learn to deal with each other face to face.

 

[Scelerat]

Agreed. Much as my method tends to be 'use logic to make peace' - if people knew they could get punched , they'd probably be a whole lot more respectful.

The amount of assault charges and legal bullshit and law suits that can happen make any kind of 'dealing with things straight on' a very unattractive option to many, and makes cowardice and 'using the system' a more viable option. IMO, most conflicts are better solved by a brawl than a beaurocracy, and all of these laws are among the many reasons people don't learn to deal with each other face to face.

I'd probably still be in trouble since I was about 3 seconds away from choke-slamming a 5ft tall 90lbs female today for having a big fucking mouth as a 6.1 215 lbs male, I think that would still be unacceptable.

I do think it's a bad thing that most people go through their lives not even considering that their moronic actions could have violent consequences. It's a testament to our society being sissified when young boys get sent home for fighting and bullied kids get told not to fight back. For instance, you know what doesn't end bullying? Talking about it, having meetings with people at the school, the parents and so on, you know what does end bullying? A rock to the head.

I don't mean that you should be permitted to kill people, but a good beating is something most people need at least once in their life. Once you get it, you have a whole new paradigm from which to consider the world.

An ex-Marine I know actually had to do jail time for kicking the shit out of some guys who attacked him, how fucked up is that?