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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm always a bit thrown off by ENTPs. At first, they just seem like a more outgoing version of an INTP. But then I debate one and I'm confronted with just how different we can be. In particular, ENTPs seem to dislike something about the way I debate things but never really seem to be able to put their fingers on what it is*.

One possibility: it seems to me that while an INTP's arguments might be a bit better (as we're constantly debating things in our own head), an ENTP is a bit better at putting their arguments in terms other people can understand (because they're constantly debating other people). So perhaps it's just that ENTPs feel we're using intellectual violence against them while we feel that they're trying to talk below us.

Do any of you guys have any thoughts on this?

* To be honest though, sometimes I think they just don't like losing!
 

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I'm always a bit thrown off by ENTPs. At first, they just seem like a more outgoing version of an INTP. But then I debate one and I'm confronted with just how different we can be. In particular, ENTPs seem to dislike something about the way I debate things but never really seem to be able to put their fingers on what it is*.

One possibility: it seems to me that while an INTP's arguments might be a bit better (as we're constantly debating things in our own head), an ENTP is a bit better at putting their arguments in terms other people can understand (because they're constantly debating other people). So perhaps it's just that ENTPs feel we're using intellectual violence against them while we feel that they're trying to talk below us.

Do any of you guys have any thoughts on this?

* To be honest though, sometimes I think they just don't like losing!
Wow, functional programming and intellectual violence in one article. I love it. Only an INTP or maybe ENTP could write that article, I'm pretty sure.

INTPs can be irritating in debate to ENTPs I think, because ENTPs are always looking at the big picture, and INTPs tend to return to the same thing if it isn't resolved to their satisfaction. The focus makes you better at that one area, but an ENTP is seeing so many bigger picture possibilities that we see that one narrow area as more and more irrelevant. This is my experience. It's Ti vs. Ne. You're seeking precision, we're seeking possibilities. We figure we'll work out the details later (even though we rarely do).

Yes, we definitely don't like losing a debate, but I think we're honest about when we are wrong, which is very rare :laughing:.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Wow, functional programming and intellectual violence in one article. I love it. Only an INTP or maybe ENTP could write that article, I'm pretty sure.

INTPs can be irritating in debate to ENTPs I think, because ENTPs are always looking at the big picture, and INTPs tend to return to the same thing if it isn't resolved to their satisfaction. The focus makes you better at that one area, but an ENTP is seeing so many bigger picture possibilities that we see that one narrow area as more and more irrelevant. This is my experience. It's Ti vs. Ne. You're seeking precision, we're seeking possibilities. We figure we'll work out the details later (even though we rarely do).

Yes, we definitely don't like losing a debate, but I think we're honest about when we are wrong, which is very rare :laughing:.
I see, so basically they feel how I feel when I debate an ESTJ. I just want to genuinely apologize on behalf of all INTPs for that.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, that also explains why I always hear "But how do you know that such and such isn't true?"
 

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I see, so basically they feel how I feel when I debate an ESTJ. I just want to genuinely apologize on behalf of all INTPs for that.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, that also explains why I always hear "But how do you know that such and such isn't true?"
I think ENTPs only feel the joy of debate. I think I can say I have had fun in any debate. By "irritating" I only mean that I'm a a bit frustrated when I can't draw someone into the debating in my playground of possibilities and am seemingly forced to debate in one spot. INTPs are intellectually challenging, so it's like the moth and flame.
 

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Its the details. All in the details. INTPs (especially ones with good Si) are brilliant nit pickers like ISTJs with an understanding on Ne so there nit picking is annoying other than that there pretty kool people to debate!:laughing:
 

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I'm always a bit thrown off by ENTPs. At first, they just seem like a more outgoing version of an INTP. But then I debate one and I'm confronted with just how different we can be. In particular, ENTPs seem to dislike something about the way I debate things but never really seem to be able to put their fingers on what it is*.

One possibility: it seems to me that while an INTP's arguments might be a bit better (as we're constantly debating things in our own head), an ENTP is a bit better at putting their arguments in terms other people can understand (because they're constantly debating other people). So perhaps it's just that ENTPs feel we're using intellectual violence against them while we feel that they're trying to talk below us.

Do any of you guys have any thoughts on this?

* To be honest though, sometimes I think they just don't like losing!
Hm, this is an interesting point. I sometimes feel like I don't "get" INTP's...

The ENTP argues with whiskey straight in one hand, a tongue in one cheek, and a stream of profanity coming out the other side. We are gregarious to a fault, and when we are not verbally assaulting the opponent themselves, we are obliterating the argument on which they stand.

Personally, I think J-types are much more fun to debate and argue with because they have their plans methodically, agonizingly, structured and laid out. The ENTP will then go about to mind-fuck them with a rueful grin, and get bored after 10 minutes, leaving the J-type to question their argument and self worth.

Back to my point at hand about INTP's. They seem to be immune to our whirlwind approach, while still trying to take shit seriously. The ENTP argues with vulgarity and lude conduct for intimidation, making an obvious point, or just plain fun. The INTP seems to try to pinpoint the truthful grain of salt in our spiel and harass that, to which I get utterly confused at their profound missing of the point entirely, which 99.9% of the time is....sarcasm.

Sometimes debates just turn awkward, and I need to walk away.
 

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INTPs I know don't like debating with me. Unlike most people, they do understand that I'm mostly just playing around with rhetoric tricks and semantics, but they don't like it.
 

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, we definitely don't like losing a debate, but I think we're honest about when we are wrong, which is very rare :laughing:.
But what if two ENTPs have regular debates with one another?
 

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In my experience, and perhaps that of a handful of INTPs, many ENTPs can be quite unproductive to seriously debate with.

When I'm in serious debate mode, I like to organize and lay out my facts and order them by recency, relevance and ability of persuasion. And then I'll think out my position and thoroughly construct my support for it. I prefer a methodical, careful approach to making decisions and persuading others to make the same ones.

The ENTPs and ENFPs I've 'debated' with tend to fly all over the place and tend to use a lot of rhetoric, articulate phrasing, fast talking and appeals to ridicule, novelty, etc. Like salesmen. It's commendable if you have a foundation to ground all the pizzazz to, but it's not a substitute for careful, objective research.

I tested professionally as an ENTJ, which I am clearly not, but I'm not such a textbook ENTP (or more specifically, its parody) that I become so wrapped up in the characteristics and their perceived merits that I can't see the flaws that a lot of them have.

INTPs, on the other hand, can also focus too much on the construction of an argument - except they seem to focus more on pointing out holes in their opponent's argument. They seem to argue on the defensive, if you will.
 

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I'm always a bit thrown off by ENTPs. At first, they just seem like a more outgoing version of an INTP. But then I debate one and I'm confronted with just how different we can be. In particular, ENTPs seem to dislike something about the way I debate things but never really seem to be able to put their fingers on what it is*.

One possibility: it seems to me that while an INTP's arguments might be a bit better (as we're constantly debating things in our own head), an ENTP is a bit better at putting their arguments in terms other people can understand (because they're constantly debating other people). So perhaps it's just that ENTPs feel we're using intellectual violence against them while we feel that they're trying to talk below us.

Do any of you guys have any thoughts on this?

* To be honest though, sometimes I think they just don't like losing!
Yeah you do a better job of backing yourself up. oh you said that? well then agreed...

and yes, I hate losing, but I love a worthy opponent more.
(Plus, as much as I wish my Ti was as beast as yours, it isn't. I'm not embarassed to lose to major, and I mean MAJOR wit.)
Want to hear a sneaky underhanded tactic that throws off INTPs. Variables... add tons of them... DERAIL the Ti... build up some Te. That ought to confuse 'em enough...

Sometimes pure unadultarated Ne throws people off too... but that isn't exactly fair.

I tend to agree with my favorite INTPs... I usually back them up when NFs are tearing at them with their silly "WE HAVE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND" arguments.

<3 you
 

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...either that or the mass of their egos forms a black hole that the universe collapses into. :wink:
I knew it.

Have you ever wondered why everything in the universe seems to be expanding away from each other, yet there is no edge to the universe? This means that everything is actually getting SMALLER rather then expanding away from each other, because there is nothing to expand into. So, obviously, 2 ENTPs debated, and we're now falling into a black hole.
 

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INTPs, ISFPs and ISTJs are pretty much the quietest types, so I can't say I've ever even debated with an INTP before. In order to debate thy first have to open their fucking mouth!
 

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In my experience, and perhaps that of a handful of INTPs, many ENTPs can be quite unproductive to seriously debate with.

The ENTPs and ENFPs I've 'debated' with tend to fly all over the place and tend to use a lot of rhetoric, articulate phrasing, fast talking and appeals to ridicule, novelty, etc. Like salesmen. It's commendable if you have a foundation to ground all the pizzazz to, but it's not a substitute for careful, objective research.

INTPs, on the other hand, can also focus too much on the construction of an argument - except they seem to focus more on pointing out holes in their opponent's argument. They seem to argue on the defensive, if you will.
I think it comes down to their function preferences. Ti is, in my opinion, the best logical 'filter'. By that I mean, it's great at deconstructing an argument and detecting logical inconsistencies. This would make sense with your statement about INTP's arguing on the defensive.

I find that it comes more naturally to me to break down an argument than to form my own. The decision making process is much tougher then because then instead of just having one argument to deconstruct, Ne kicks in and throws up tons of possibilities.

Personally, I'm constantly battling with coming up with possibilities and subsequently tearing them apart. It's good for discerning truths, but it can get tiresome and tedious (for most other types). I'd think in general though, ENTPs and INTPs would help each other come up with a useful answer. The only problem I'd see is the ENTP might get annoyed with the INTPs insistence on not overlooking any little error in logic in one little idea which probably isn't important anyway.
My ENTP friend really enjoys brainstorming with me but gets annoyed when I break everything down to an unanswerable philosophical question.

^Just an INTP's opinion on the subject. I love debating about debating.
 

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Ne Ti means that they will come up with ideas and then try to make sense of the logic of the ideas with Ti.

Ti Ne means that they will look at the logic of an idea or information and then try to make sense of how the idea works with Ne.

So, that means there should be similar thinking but different approaches.
 

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Or maybe ENTPs don't like arguing with you because you think that just because you're introverted, you think more than us. Maybe they don't like debating with you because you are convinced your arguments are infalllable. I love debating INTPs. My best friend and my sister are both INTPs. And I promise you, the constant debating in your head is *not* an "I" thing, it's an NTP thing. We think as much as you do.

ENTPs (like INTPs) are truth-seekers. That means we (and you) stick to what's right. No one gives up their position until it is *proven* false, but we are not above admission if we're bested. If your argument really is better, your ENTP friend might still be standing their ground because, as you said, "an ENTP is a bit better at putting their arguments in terms other people can understand." (Although, like the fact that debating in your head is not *necessarily* an I thing, I don't believe articulation is necessarily an "E" thing - in fact, exacting the shade of meaning is usually an INTP hallmark), and perhaps they don't understand precisely what you're trying to communicate. In that case, you can't blame the ENTP. Should watertight case be presented to an ENTP they would (even if begrudgingly, or not immediately), change their mind.
 

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My best friend and my sister are both INTPs. And I promise you, the constant debating in your head is *not* an "I" thing, it's an NTP thing. We think as much as you do.
I'd be tempted to go as far as to say that all the types "think" about the same amount. Some of them just conceal their active minds by actually being active. 'Doing' doesn't necessarily mean not thinking. NTPs just prefer to logically debate/consider ideas. An ENFP might do things (help a distraught person) without first reflecting on the consequences of the action, but there's still some form of thought going on there. It's just more emotionally charged than logically. Not sure if that actually makes sense.

Since NTPs are very idea oriented, I think they would at least enjoy the challenge of the other. It seems like they'd think in a pretty similar way, but they might want different things out of the debate.
 
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