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do you have a daughter? and even if you don't have a daughter.

Would you respect a man who did not take the initiative in the relationship and did not talk about his intentions with her?

I think that men like that don't care about their daughters..
I don't think that the woman proposing means the man did not talk about his intentions with her. Talking about your intentions is something that should happen considerably before a proposal no matter who is doing the proposing!? Like, if you're a guy and your proposing you should probably know how serious your partner is about the relationship before you propose, and that should be true the other way around as well.

Like, once upon a time asking someone to marry you was similar to like... asking them to "go steady" or asking them for a monogamous and sexual relationship. But like... that was the 19th century and before.

This is a serious false equivalency rooted in some seriously outdated beliefs.

Yeah, it's fine for a woman to do the asking out. I'd personally love it, as a man who would prefer for the woman to be in the driving seat of the relationship anyways. It doesn't mean I don't respect her, actually the opposite: I'm happy to adapt to her needs and time table (I'm not just an introverted P-type, I'm an introverted F-dominant P-type: why would I want to be in charge!?) It also doesn't mean I won't communicate my desires or intentions, 'cause oh my god I will talk about my feelings endlessly given the chance.

This is not related to some era, this is timeless.

People don't worry about it anymore because there is contraception.
That's, like, assuming that people don't have pre-marital sex while in committed serious romantic relationships!?! Or even have serious committed romantic relationships prior to marriage!? Or have pre-marital sex outside of serious committed romantic relationships!? Or that marriage is about pro-creation!?! What century do you come from!?!

Ok, wait, I shouldn't judge, if you actually ARE a time traveler from the distant past then welcome to the post-modern age. We do things a little differently, but it does have it's own internal logic that actually does work out for everyone involved as long as people play nice, and we've gotten to a point where people generally play nice more than not. It's a nice age, relative to the distant past anyways, I hope you enjoy it. If you need a tour guide I'm sure we can arrange for it.
 

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I think I did it, although it's been so long ago, I can't quite remember, how it went down. We had been living together for a year and I think I brought it up like "let's get married". We went to City Hall.

This was in '94.

So my answer to the question is - - ->> Sure.
 

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I don't fall for the black and white perspective of gender roles that are traditional. So, I am not against women proposing to men nor against men proposing to women. Because I don't care. What I do care about is women and men proposing to each other when they wholeheartedly commit to their relationships. People proposing to others just to gain a higher social status for society doesn't impress me. Especially since the politicians, celebrities, and people in general have married others to gain power, money, sex, sex appeal, social status, etc. rather than romantic love. Hollywood promoting public proposals won't work for everyone in the real world. There are a lot of people who want private proposals. Which private proposals allow a person to deny or accept a proposal without dealing with embarassment in front of a public audience. Private proposals are more tactful in real life than public proposals usually as a result. I think women and men should propose to each other with private proposals.
 

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Saying women proposing is a meme is considered a joke or an ad hominem fallacy by attacking women's integrity rather than presenting an actual argument. Saying a man is not a real man if he does not propose is another joke or fallacious statement. There might have been men who got proposed to by women and helped build civilisations greatly in history.
 

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I feel that it's within any person's right to do as they please when it comes to expressions of their desperation I mean love. That being said, if anyone want to get married me, holler. 💩
 
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I don't think that the woman proposing means the man did not talk about his intentions with her. Talking about your intentions is something that should happen considerably before a proposal no matter who is doing the proposing!? Like, if you're a guy and your proposing you should probably know how serious your partner is about the relationship before you propose, and that should be true the other way around as well.

Like, once upon a time asking someone to marry you was similar to like... asking them to "go steady" or asking them for a monogamous and sexual relationship. But like... that was the 19th century and before.

This is a serious false equivalency rooted in some seriously outdated beliefs.

Yeah, it's fine for a woman to do the asking out. I'd personally love it, as a man who would prefer for the woman to be in the driving seat of the relationship anyways. It doesn't mean I don't respect her, actually the opposite: I'm happy to adapt to her needs and time table (I'm not just an introverted P-type, I'm an introverted F-dominant P-type: why would I want to be in charge!?) It also doesn't mean I won't communicate my desires or intentions, 'cause oh my god I will talk about my feelings endlessly given the chance.


That's, like, assuming that people don't have pre-marital sex while in committed serious romantic relationships!?! Or even have serious committed romantic relationships prior to marriage!? Or have pre-marital sex outside of serious committed romantic relationships!? Or that marriage is about pro-creation!?! What century do you come from!?!

Ok, wait, I shouldn't judge, if you actually ARE a time traveler from the distant past then welcome to the post-modern age. We do things a little differently, but it does have it's own internal logic that actually does work out for everyone involved as long as people play nice, and we've gotten to a point where people generally play nice more than not. It's a nice age, relative to the distant past anyways, I hope you enjoy it. If you need a tour guide I'm sure we can arrange for it.
If you think promiscuity, feminine men and glorification of homosexuality is a new age thing, you don't know enough history. It's been tried and tested many times over the course of human history and the result is always the same. It eats away at the fabric of society until there is nothing left.

She's not old fashioned. You're just naive and gullible. Spoilt in the comforts of an environment built by men who valued the very things you mock.
 

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Before going further : what do they propose, which way, why, how and where ?
Need some crispy details...
 

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If you think promiscuity, feminine men and glorification of homosexuality is a new age thing, you don't know enough history. It's been tried and tested many times over the course of human history and the result is always the same. It eats away at the fabric of society until there is nothing left.

She's not old fashioned. You're just naive and gullible. Spoilt in the comforts of an environment built by men who valued the very things you mock.
I never said it was a new age thing. I said it was more tolerated in the modern age then in the 19th century. But if you think that homosexuality, promiscuity, or feminine men were the reason the Greek and Roman civilizations eroded then you sorely need better historical education. Those had literally nothing to do with it. It was the result of complex socio-political and socio-economic factors heavily influenced by climate changes. Same with literally every single civilization that came to a non-violent "end" (not that most of those civilizations actually ended.)
 

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I wouldn't have a problem with it if I wanted to have children, but I would also have conditions. With marriage, men are held accountable before the law if they don't fulfill their marital duties. So one of the conditions is, if I'm gonna be held accountable before the law of making sure I'm far above what you think you want because you might change your mind when the slightest better opportunity arises, then I would expect you to be a fully traditional woman. You provide sex on demand to me, children, you quit your career to take care of them, you cook and clean, you stay pretty, and you don't give me a headache but peace instead.

Fortunately I don't want children, so if someone proposes to me, I don't have a good reason to accept.
 
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I wouldn't have a problem with it if I wanted to have children, but I would also have conditions. With marriage, men are held accountable before the law if they don't fulfill their marital duties. So one of the conditions is, if I'm gonna be held accountable before the law of making sure I'm far above what you think you want because you might change your mind when the slightest better opportunity arises, then I would expect you to be a fully traditional woman. You provide sex on demand to me, children, you quit your career to take care of them, you cook and clean, you stay pretty, and you don't give me a headache but peace instead.

Fortunately I don't want children, so if someone proposes to me, I don't have a good reason to accept.
There is literally no circumstance under which you would be entitled to ask for that... sex on demand? literally not a thing you can ask for. children? no. Like... people have rights? one of them is bodily autonomy?
 

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I've read parts of this thread with arguments for and against, and I'm honestly still kinda scratching my head wondering what logical reason there could even be that a woman can't propose to a man. I think I'm simply not gonna get it even if people try explaining it. Its like explaining to me that its wrong to spread the peanut butter before the jelly, and you must spread the jelly first. Like wha???
 

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You're right, that was more vague than I intended. I'm talking about women actually proposing marriage. In my culture it's not uncommon for a marriage proposal to be the first move. A lot of Muslim women won't entertain the idea of even holding hands with you let alone going out and sleeping with you before marriage.

Edit: It's not uncommon at all. It probably happens in your community. But you're not going to hear about it if the community disapproves and thinks of it as a woman throwing herself at the feet of a weak man. They're probably just going to keep the truth about who proposed to who to themselves.
This is very interesting. In a place where the first move also means proposal, it changes the dynamics. Everything I said is depended on a situation that a couple is already been dating.

And about your idea that maybe it is kept secret, no, I highly doubt this. But only a well respected unbiased study could prove who is right.
 

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And the man will later throw it back in the woman's face: You pressured me; I wasn't ready; etc.

Maybe there are some exceptions, e.g., an honorable man who is shy.
"You pressured me; I wasn't ready" has nothing to do with proposal but the response to it. Asking to get married is not forcing anyone to get married. The partner is free to say yes, no or let's wait. And there is also the engagement period, that is supposed to make you ready for marriage so "I wasn't ready" is not valid, unless it was a shutgun wedding. Average engagement period is 12-18 months.

Also the "You pressured me; I wasn't ready" is not gender restricted.

My own grandma is constantly complaining her biggest life mistake was marrying my grandpa when he proposed to her. 60 years passed and they are still married and living together but she complains about it all the freaking time, while living a leisure life. She worked part time all her life while grandpa was working 1,5 jobs to build the house, buy the car etc., she barely cooks - grandpa just eats whatever, and she barely cleans - grandpa is a pedant so he deals with that. But yeah. Her being "yound and stupid" and him "forcing her to get married" destroyed her life and prevented her from becoming a scientist. Excuses.
 

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you will find at least one positive example for probably anything, maybe even a "happy" incestuous story lol, this doesn't make it a smart choice in general.
The "elite" seems happier than ever for starting to miss out on the cousins thing. Look at Harry.

But only a well respected unbiased study could prove who is right.
Well, well and well. I would truly enjoy reading a "respected, UNbiased research. Could you set one single example of those for us, please?

Proposing a man would not make a day for me. Ones shadow moving away from my sun when he is in a need for a proposal from me though is.
 

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"You pressured me; I wasn't ready" has nothing to do with proposal but the response to it. Asking to get married is not forcing anyone to get married. The partner is free to say yes, no or let's wait.
To be fair though, usually at this point one or the other is ready for taking the next step of marriage, and if the other partner is not at the same point, it becomes a strain/breaking point in the relationship that the couple may not be able to recover from.

So yes, in a perfect world when one party is not ready, they can communicate with the other, and the other will accept that... BUT even in those cases, the one that proposed doesn't suddenly stop wanting to get married, or will not suddenly be so accepting without some kind of continuous 'background noise' in their mind about why things haven't 'gone as planned'. Meaning, everything after that point is on a timer, either to the end of the relationship, or to a marriage where one feels pressured/obligated into - especially if they still 'love' their partner and don't wish it to be the end.

In any case, it leads to a case of the beginnings of resentment from either or both sides. Well, unless they both love and live by hollywood standards.
 
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Creator, source, great mother, great father, god, Allah, whatever you want to call it, we each have the ability(and imo the responsibility) to get in touch with it ourselves, personally. No one person has the same connection to it as the other, yet we're all related to it the same way.
I'm a practicing Muslim so I call him Allah, in the other Abrahamic religions in; Gospel, Aramaic (Elah/Elaha), Torah, Hebrew (Elohim, Eloh). I don't believe that religions I mentioned were initially false, but one completing the one before, just like how people went to Judaism, then to Christianity, then to Islam. Simply it's like, once a new update comes, it shall get installed in order to have the latest features, while others become outdated and vulnerable. I do agree with your statement though, but just pointing it out, it doesn't necessarily mean that people are following the truth just because they're satisfied with what they've, or vice versa, there are no more than a truth to one statement, grey free.
 

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That's a little unfair. Very rarely do actual scientists make these outlandish claims or attempt to appear as an authority over people or even as an alternative to religion. It's often opportunistic people simply using science as a tool to influence others. Unless you were referring to the these people and not the practitioners of science.
My response was a little bit mysterious, so I'm deciphering, these scientists, think that everything they claim is true, as a way of "Science is superior and us humans are", until proven wrong with the excuse of "Science is improving and it's okay to be wrong", which everyone else who is labelled as "atheist" doesn't believe in God (who owns the same trait as scientists, but is a higher omniscient being). The problem is that relying on limited humans, validating whatever they cook, even though they aren't that knowledgeable or advanced in their fields, is just nonsensical to me. A religion with no science is as useless as fully relying on science while not believing in God, both are irrational. So I neither choose being an atheist nor a Christian. I prefer balance, which I believe is also the truth and what's most rational, Islam.
 

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do you have a daughter? and even if you don't have a daughter.

Would you respect a man who did not take the initiative in the relationship and did not talk about his intentions with her?

I think that men like that don't care about their daughters..
I think I'd be too busy feeling proud of my daughter for taking initiative.

Also - there are many things I might judge a guy who's with my daughter for but not being the one to propose to her isn't what I'd think of as the most accurate gauge.
 

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That's, like, assuming that people don't have pre-marital sex while in committed serious romantic relationships!?! Or even have serious committed romantic relationships prior to marriage!? Or have pre-marital sex outside of serious committed romantic relationships!? Or that marriage is about pro-creation!?! What century do you come from!?!

Ok, wait, I shouldn't judge, if you actually ARE a time traveler from the distant past then welcome to the post-modern age. We do things a little differently, but it does have it's own internal logic that actually does work out for everyone involved as long as people play nice, and we've gotten to a point where people generally play nice more than not. It's a nice age, relative to the distant past anyways, I hope you enjoy it. If you need a tour guide I'm sure we can arrange for it.
I don't aid your perspective, sounds more like:
Since we are at the 21st century. Therefore we can decline religion/culture/traditions.
I don't see it any wrong when a couple doesn't engage in activities like pre-marital sex. It's actually appealing to me, when two know how to control their desires having willpower & consistency needed in order to do so. While on the other side a reckless one would've at the worst case an orphan, if not, abortion, which is something I despise and find completely inhumane, 0 conscience. Going further in time, Islam rates are increasing as the highest rate compared to other beliefs. In every 4 humans, there is a 1 Muslim, which means at least 25% of the population doesn't agree with pre-marital sex or such despised acts, alongside practicing Christians, and Jews, that's at least 40% of population still believing in such concepts not to do. "The new era" that you're talking about is no more than a mirage that you'll never get to reach, such baseless claims, sounds like liberalism.
 
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