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Discussion Starter #1
This is a deliberately general topic! I have some questions to start off, but you don't need to stick to these or even answer any of these.


In theory, you might be conscious of the results of your Demonstrative element's process, but the process itself is unconscious (vital track). Is that consistent with how you experience your Demonstrative?

Have others commented on your use of your Demonstrative? Since it's vital track (unconscious), the Demo is sometimes more visible to others than to oneself.

Have you had the opportunity to interact with or observe others who share your Demonstrative (as their Demonstrative)? What, if anything, have you noticed about their use of the element?

How do you react to use of your Demonstrative by others who have your Demonstrative in ego?

What about Demo-seeking-- how do you react to requests for your Demonstrative? Requests meaning explicit or implicit requests for help in the area of your Demonstrative.

I hypothesize that you would not notice an implicit request for your Demonstrative unless it was transferred to, or at least packaged with, a request for your Creative. What's your experience with this-- do you notice implicit requests for your Demonstrative?
 

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Regarding conscious/unconscious, do you mean voluntary/involuntary, or aware/unaware? If the latter, of itself or of anything?
 

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"In theory, you might be conscious of the results of your Demonstrative element's process, but the process itself is unconscious (vital track). Is that consistent with how you experience your Demonstrative?"

> Yes, pretty much. I don't seem to control the metabolism of the Demonstrative. However moments happen where I could use/show off my Ti thinking but I choose not to. I would say that even though I don't publicise the Ti, my impersonal nature is very visible and so is my introverted nature; couple this with some public use of Ti when necessary I think many people would be seeing the function, even if it is not valued.

"Have you had the opportunity to interact with or observe others who share your Demonstrative (as their Demonstrative)? What, if anything, have you noticed about their use of the element?"

>Yes I believe so. Um I guess a kind of acknowledgement of strength + ability to converse quickly/easily. It's different between ILI's and SLI's because there use of it does seem pointed in different directions. It comes across as an important tool in both cases, but one that can be used for very different goals. I can appreciate the methodology of ILI's.

"How do you react to use of your Demonstrative by others who have your Demonstrative in ego?"

>Hmmm it can really vary even within types. Generally it depends how much it is flexed, and that generally depends on the position. Ti in leading position seems very oppositional, in many ways, which is almost never good. Creative is usually okay, although sometimes not.


"What about Demo-seeking-- how do you react to requests for your Demonstrative? Requests meaning explicit or implicit requests for help in the area of your Demonstrative."


>Depends on who is doing the asking. If they value Ti then they get annoyed that I seem to dislike the content, this feels wrong like I'm teaching a child to hold a knife incorrectly. If they don't value Ti then usually it's an unhappy process for both of us, which is actually alright, it's just part of the job.

"I hypothesize that you would not notice an implicit request for your Demonstrative unless it was transferred to, or at least packaged with, a request for your Creative. What's your experience with this-- do you notice implicit requests for your Demonstrative?"

> Yes I'm not really sure about implicit vs explicit. I do recognise that I would be unlikely to respond to purely Ti requests, and that a 3rd/4th Ti function would not usually like asking for help for Ti, so I agree that the request would usually be implicit from other less disliked areas, and this could easily be Te in a 5th or 6th position. In my experience I do notice those requests in most of their forms. Given the demonstrative comes so easily I think that seeing someone in need is easy, let alone if they ask for help.
 

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IEI, demo Fi

In theory, you might be conscious of the results of your Demonstrative element's process, but the process itself is unconscious (vital track). Is that consistent with how you experience your Demonstrative?

Yes, the more i pay attention to my thinking the more i notice its presence.

Have you had the opportunity to interact with or observe others who share your Demonstrative (as their Demonstrative)? What, if anything, have you noticed about their use of the element?

I just got off a long call with my close friend, and ESI-Fi, with quite strong Fi! i find myself thinking that if she used more Fe, should wouldn't have as much of the problems she describes.. but i do understand her POV, and it has helped me! especially when she tells me, you don't have to like everyone/well, sometimes it's just not meant to happen between two people.. etc.
i have been unconsciously toning down my Fe around around her and probably using more Fi. i see the reason in the thinking but basically i don't really personally take it that seriously..

How do you react to use of your Demonstrative by others who have your Demonstrative in ego?

I annoys me, a lot of the time. like, why do you take this so seriously? and it's also pretty funny that i'm so good at this thing that i don't care about at all, that other people do care about. but hey i'm not complaining.


What about Demo-seeking-- how do you react to requests for your Demonstrative? Requests meaning explicit or implicit requests for help in the area of your Demonstrative.


Hm. i actually think i don't mind it that that much. i'm superb at giving relationship advice. i'm friends with a very sweet LSE-Si, and she has always clashed with the ESI-Fi I just called, and recently I just got her to initiate a discussion about what was happening between them herself. it's a big step for her!! i felt so proud haha.
i don't have much experience with Te roles. I know an LIE (my supervisor, plus she's the accepting subtype) and i can't get myself to be comfortable around her no matter how nice she's been to me (my ESI helpfully told me that, hey, it's okay. i do appreciate their pov at times. but i would hate it if all the time) we are also just generally incompatible, so i wouldn't be inclined to help her anyway.
i also know an LSE and we have a good relationship, i would be more than happy to help her, because i see how she needs guidance in it so much! i don't need it, but she clearly does, so i'll help her. perhaps it depends on the person. if it's a request for the use of my demo in a non-personal context i probably would internally scoff.

but, if it's not giving me relationship advice and i have to do it myself, besides telling someone how to do it.. gosh i would just much prefer using Fe/Ti.
i like my ILE friend because we can just call each other out in the bluntest manner, and in the end it's totally fine. it's so much more constructive and easy, i feel.
i'm friends with a lot of delta NFs, and i could never do the same with them.. in the end, i can only become truly emotionally close with Ti/Fe users. with Fi/Te there are too many "rules" or whatever.. i can sense them and follow them, sure, but in the end i can't just be free. i still have to remain cautious at the back of my mind..

I hypothesize that you would not notice an implicit request for your Demonstrative unless it was transferred to, or at least packaged with, a request for your Creative. What's your experience with this-- do you notice implicit requests for your Demonstrative?

that's interesting... i sort of agree with that for now. i'll have to let the idea stew for a bit.



answering you, i just had a bit of a realization.. i've been thinking a lot about the fi/te axis lately, so i think answering this sort of catalyzed the realization.. i'm quite good at interpersonal relationships, and i always took it, and Fi for granted, before. that's it
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Sorry, I finally decided to reply to this after three months. Good thing this subforum is so dead...

"In theory, you might be conscious of the results of your Demonstrative element's process, but the process itself is unconscious (vital track). Is that consistent with how you experience your Demonstrative?"

Yes, pretty much. I don't seem to control the metabolism of the Demonstrative. However moments happen where I could use/show off my Ti thinking but I choose not to. I would say that even though I don't publicise the Ti, my impersonal nature is very visible and so is my introverted nature; couple this with some public use of Ti when necessary I think many people would be seeing the function, even if it is not valued.
Makes sense that you don't control its metabolism. I think you make a good point that the overall attitude of the demonstrative (introverted logical in your case) is visible. I think it might be even more visible for extraverted types (extraverted demonstrative).

"How do you react to use of your Demonstrative by others who have your Demonstrative in ego?"

Hmmm it can really vary even within types. Generally it depends how much it is flexed, and that generally depends on the position. Ti in leading position seems very oppositional, in many ways, which is almost never good. Creative is usually okay, although sometimes not.
I noticed something similar (comparing base Te to creative Te), and I think it's partially because of rationality. But maybe it's also because your semi-dual/extinguishment (who have your creative as their demonstrative) don't ignore your creative, while their respective mirrors (your benefactor/quasi-identical) (who have your creative as their ignoring) ignore your creative. Maybe leading Ti seems oppositional to you not because of the Ti itself but because they ignore your Te. Whereas Ti creatives don't ignore your Te.

I think this is part of the asymmetry of benefit relations. If the beneficiary tries to "get through" to the benefactor using the creative, it'll fall on the benefactor's ignoring. The benefactor will largely disregard the information, and the beneficiary will sense that they are not being heard.

Yes I'm not really sure about implicit vs explicit. I do recognise that I would be unlikely to respond to purely Ti requests, and that a 3rd/4th Ti function would not usually like asking for help for Ti, so I agree that the request would usually be implicit from other less disliked areas, and this could easily be Te in a 5th or 6th position. In my experience I do notice those requests in most of their forms. Given the demonstrative comes so easily I think that seeing someone in need is easy, let alone if they ask for help.
That makes sense. Thanks for answering :)


Have you had the opportunity to interact with or observe others who share your Demonstrative (as their Demonstrative)? What, if anything, have you noticed about their use of the element?

I just got off a long call with my close friend, and ESI-Fi, with quite strong Fi! i find myself thinking that if she used more Fe, should wouldn't have as much of the problems she describes.. but i do understand her POV, and it has helped me! especially when she tells me, you don't have to like everyone/well, sometimes it's just not meant to happen between two people.. etc.
i have been unconsciously toning down my Fe around around her and probably using more Fi. i see the reason in the thinking but basically i don't really personally take it that seriously..
Yeah, I think this is part of the asymmetry of benefit relations (ESI benefits IEI). If you were to give her Fe advice, it would fall on her Fe ignoring, and she would mostly disregard the information. Same with quasi-identicals, but at least it's symmetrical.

How do you react to use of your Demonstrative by others who have your Demonstrative in ego?

I annoys me, a lot of the time. like, why do you take this so seriously? and it's also pretty funny that i'm so good at this thing that i don't care about at all, that other people do care about. but hey i'm not complaining.
Lol tbh I still don't really "get" Te valuing. I can only see Te as a tool, not as an element with inherent value. :p

What about Demo-seeking-- how do you react to requests for your Demonstrative? Requests meaning explicit or implicit requests for help in the area of your Demonstrative.

Hm. i actually think i don't mind it that that much. i'm superb at giving relationship advice. i'm friends with a very sweet LSE-Si, and she has always clashed with the ESI-Fi I just called, and recently I just got her to initiate a discussion about what was happening between them herself. it's a big step for her!! i felt so proud haha.
i don't have much experience with Te roles. I know an LIE (my supervisor, plus she's the accepting subtype) and i can't get myself to be comfortable around her no matter how nice she's been to me (my ESI helpfully told me that, hey, it's okay. i do appreciate their pov at times. but i would hate it if all the time) we are also just generally incompatible, so i wouldn't be inclined to help her anyway.
i also know an LSE and we have a good relationship, i would be more than happy to help her, because i see how she needs guidance in it so much! i don't need it, but she clearly does, so i'll help her. perhaps it depends on the person. if it's a request for the use of my demo in a non-personal context i probably would internally scoff.
This is really interesting. I was thinking a while ago that perhaps using your demonstrative is a good way to smooth out interactions with your conflictor and supervisor, who have it as their suggestive. It sounds like you have maintained good relations with LSEs in part by giving them Fi assistance. And maybe it does not work as well with LIEs because of the asymmetry (supervision). Do you ever receive positive Se input from LSEs?

but, if it's not giving me relationship advice and i have to do it myself, besides telling someone how to do it.. gosh i would just much prefer using Fe/Ti.
i like my ILE friend because we can just call each other out in the bluntest manner, and in the end it's totally fine. it's so much more constructive and easy, i feel.
i'm friends with a lot of delta NFs, and i could never do the same with them.. in the end, i can only become truly emotionally close with Ti/Fe users. with Fi/Te there are too many "rules" or whatever.. i can sense them and follow them, sure, but in the end i can't just be free. i still have to remain cautious at the back of my mind..
I've noticed this with Fe egos. They rarely misinterpret bluntness, or just ambiguous/unclear expressions, as negative emotionality or hostility.
 

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Time stands pretty still in this subforum.

Lol tbh I still don't really "get" Te valuing. I can only see Te as a tool, not as an element with inherent value. :p
Since I posted, I've come to understand Fi (and Te to a lesser extent) in a better, less 2-dimensional manner.. Since I have quite a few delta NF friends, and I've recently been spending a lot of time with an IEE, that has helped.
A little thing I do around the IEE sometimes, is try to adopt the mindset of a Fi ego and act accordingly. I think I've slowly realized the value in Fi and I'm not as dismissive of it as I used to be, but nahh I still prefer Fe.
Also, I've gotten closer with an SLI recently, and I do think there is something comforting in the quiet, unsaid, implicit understanding within a relationship, that doesn't need to be reinforced with Fe, that Fi brings. In this respect, along with my experience with the IEE, this is the closest to an appreciation for Fi I have at the moment.

This is really interesting. I was thinking a while ago that perhaps using your demonstrative is a good way to smooth out interactions with your conflictor and supervisor, who have it as their suggestive. It sounds like you have maintained good relations with LSEs in part by giving them Fi assistance. And maybe it does not work as well with LIEs because of the asymmetry (supervision). Do you ever receive positive Se input from LSEs?
Being with my conflictor, superego, and supervisor definitely brings out my demonstrative more. Not sure about kindred.
I'm only close with one LSE, so maybe it is an anomaly. Her family has so much Fe (ESE mom, EIE brother), and she certainly uses her role more than usual for an LSE. We have a lot of similar values and the same cultural background, which also helps our relationship. I'm not sure how things would pan out with a different LSE. With her, I never really feel like I'm stupid, which I usually feel around people with strong Te, well, she is a Si-sub.
One thing she really appreciated about me (I use past tense because I have moved away, but we remain in contact) was my Fi, and I was very forgiving and understanding with her. In contrast, around the ESI-Fi, she felt like she was always walking on glass, and given her weak Fi she couldn't figure out why (ESI was not the most mature back then either). Before I moved, we were a tight-knit group of 3, that is why I talk about the ESI a lot for this. Although they got along well, and it took a bit longer for LSE and I to get close to each other than ESI and I, at the end I was certainly the glue that held us all together.

I've always felt a strain (perhaps only on my side) when I'm around my supervisor esp when they are Te sub. After learning about socionics, I started consciously using more Fi around my supervisor.. if I'm being honest I think it's partially for selfish reasons.. to make myself not feel so at a disadvantage, feel like I have some sort of upper hand (their upper hand over me is Te). I don't mean I use it to hurt them, though.
I wonder if beta types experience being supervised in a worse way than other quadras because of their aversion to feeling like they are weak or vulnerable in any way. My strong instinctive reaction to LIEs has always surprised me, especially since I've seen some people mention that they don't mind their supervisor that much.

I've noticed this with Fe egos. They rarely misinterpret bluntness, or just ambiguous/unclear expressions, as negative emotionality or hostility.
With my ESE, I sometimes wonder that perhaps she may take offense at my bluntness, but simply does not mention it because the Fe situation does not call for it. When I get those feelings I try to clear it up by explicitly saying that I did not mean it in a mean way.

Sorry, my replies are always so wordy!
 

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Could you elaborate on your experience of Te too? I've always wondered how it is for ILEs/SLEs.
@counterintuitive

Another question (off topic but i'm too lazy to start a new thread if probably only you will answer), how do you experience Si-seeking?
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Also, I've gotten closer with an SLI recently, and I do think there is something comforting in the quiet, unsaid, implicit understanding within a relationship, that doesn't need to be reinforced with Fe, that Fi brings. In this respect, along with my experience with the IEE, this is the closest to an appreciation for Fi I have at the moment.
I could see why that bolded part would have some value, especially for Fi seeking types/Te egos, who might otherwise seek reassurance on the status of the relationship.

Being with my conflictor, superego, and supervisor definitely brings out my demonstrative more. Not sure about kindred.
I'm only close with one LSE, so maybe it is an anomaly. Her family has so much Fe (ESE mom, EIE brother), and she certainly uses her role more than usual for an LSE. We have a lot of similar values and the same cultural background, which also helps our relationship. I'm not sure how things would pan out with a different LSE. With her, I never really feel like I'm stupid, which I usually feel around people with strong Te, well, she is a Si-sub.
One thing she really appreciated about me (I use past tense because I have moved away, but we remain in contact) was my Fi, and I was very forgiving and understanding with her. In contrast, around the ESI-Fi, she felt like she was always walking on glass, and given her weak Fi she couldn't figure out why (ESI was not the most mature back then either). Before I moved, we were a tight-knit group of 3, that is why I talk about the ESI a lot for this. Although they got along well, and it took a bit longer for LSE and I to get close to each other than ESI and I, at the end I was certainly the glue that held us all together.
Oh sorry, I thought it was two different LSEs. Anyway, that's really interesting that you were the glue-- you'd think an ESI and an LSE would get along very well (being semi-duals) without needing glue, but it does make sense from what you said about the maturity thing.

I've always felt a strain (perhaps only on my side) when I'm around my supervisor esp when they are Te sub. After learning about socionics, I started consciously using more Fi around my supervisor.. if I'm being honest I think it's partially for selfish reasons.. to make myself not feel so at a disadvantage, feel like I have some sort of upper hand (their upper hand over me is Te). I don't mean I use it to hurt them, though.
It's probably on your side more so than theirs. I would expect it to be for selfish reasons, to try to level the playing field, but it also has the side effect of smoothing interactions, so it works out for them too. It sounds like a mutual positive.

I wonder if beta types experience being supervised in a worse way than other quadras because of their aversion to feeling like they are weak or vulnerable in any way. My strong instinctive reaction to LIEs has always surprised me, especially since I've seen some people mention that they don't mind their supervisor that much.
This is a good point, and I was thinking about something similar in relation to that "desire for power" thread. In general, I think Se valuing types are more desiring of power compared to Se devaluing types. So I would think supervision is harder on Decisive types than Judicious types. And maybe Judicious types make less "dominating" supervisors.

With my ESE, I sometimes wonder that perhaps she may take offense at my bluntness, but simply does not mention it because the Fe situation does not call for it. When I get those feelings I try to clear it up by explicitly saying that I did not mean it in a mean way.
It doesn't hurt to clear it up, especially if your bluntness could have been somehow Ni-related, since that would probably land badly with Ni PoLR.

Could you elaborate on your experience of Te too? I've always wondered how it is for ILEs/SLEs.
It's basically effortless efficiency, logistical sequencing, and resource management. I wasn't that aware of Te on my own, but there's an IEE I've known for years who always points out (and compliments) Te stuff. Most recently, he pointed out that when I grocery shop, I go through the store in an efficient (if not optimal) order. I never consciously thought about that at all, I just do it automatically. This is basically accidental efficiency, in that efficiency is not the goal but just a byproduct. When I look back at myself doing everyday tasks, I seem to automatically do them with the "shortest path", without even thinking about it. Even at work, I rarely spend time prioritizing tasks, but I automatically know which tasks have the highest priority and which order to do the steps within the task.

While I'm naturally aware of efficiency, it's not my goal, so I don't usually spend time optimizing something or finding the most efficient way to do it. I'll just find some way to do it, and it ends up being efficient "by accident" without me deliberately focusing on efficiency. A few years back, I worked with an SLE who was similar. Her attitude was "just do it!" and however she did it, it'd end up being efficient. Our manager was LIE, and was also effortlessly efficient, but (from my pov) would spend time anal-retentively optimizing stuff that didn't need it. (But, to be fair, I can also spend time anal-retentively perfecting something when the Te bases are like "we got the result, so it's done!" and they're on to the next task.)

I think Te bases, being Rational types, spend more time in preparation, planning ahead for something, compared to Irrational Te demonstratives. Most of my "plans" are just an overall mental structure, which is probably more Ti than Te (could be a mix). At work, most of my "planning" is breaking something into components, which is still Ti more so than Te.

Then there's resource management. When I have a new project, I automatically know how much work it will be, which resources will be required, and which way to implement something so it will be the least work. If I need to update/fix something, I usually know immediately or very quickly how to make the update/fix to minmize work. Something I noticed only recently that may indicate 4D Te specifically: I'm also aware of how much work something will be over the long term, and how to minimize the long term outlay of work, vs taking a shortcut now that ends up creating more work in the long term.

If I need to learn a new process/workflow, I basically look at it and just figure it out somehow. Even if there is no training, no instructions, no documentation, no manual. In general, whenever I'm doing anything, I automatically know what the next step is, even if it's a completely new task.

And I guess, I'm reasonably pragmatic. I understand practical applications of things, the utility/use of things, their function. By the way, I think I have more appreciation for this part of Te because of being self-pres dominant.

Another question (off topic but i'm too lazy to start a new thread if probably only you will answer), how do you experience Si-seeking?
I'm honestly not very aware of it. It's mostly an obliviousness to Si information, like the impact of my environment on mental space/state, bodily/physical state and sensations, etc. I can't even tell which flavors go together, can't match colors, I have basically no taste in design, fashion and so on (lol 1D Fi doesn't help here either). But then, if I enter a space that's cozy, comfortable, aesthetically pleasing, I immediately appreciate it. I can't tell why it's cozy/comfortable/pleasing, and can't create it myself, but I appreciate that it is. It's a feeling of sensory "resonance", of being "at home" in a space, is the best I can describe that, but I'm barely even aware of that. I used to only be aware of a vaguely "grounding" state. I also experience FeSi blocked together in that I can't fully separate a pleasant emotional atmosphere from a pleasant sensory atmosphere; they're kinda fused together.

Btw, I heavily considered both SLE and EIE for my type (along with LII, but that was a holdover from mistyping as TiNe in MBTI), because I wasn't sure I valued Si. Now, five years later, I'm very confident I do. But it's obviously deeply unconscious, and I'm much more aware of Fe (both using and seeking it).
 
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