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It's pretty straight forward... but how do you distinguish the two?
 

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1.) What does eccentric self indulgence mean?
2.) Why does a 3w4 SX look like 4?
 

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1.) What does eccentric self indulgence mean?
2.) Why does a 3w4 SX look like 4?
1) 4w3s are gonna be more focused on milking their f-cked up internal landscape (self-indulgence), 3w4s are going to focus on completely molding themselves into an ideal, almost unconsciously. Even when David Bowie (3w4) went through his androgynous phase, for him, it was all about the glamour of that image. Generally speaking, 3w4s want to be sexy or perfect, while 4w3s want to be whatever they feel reflects their 'essence'.

2) They can often be more freaky and eccentric with their image than other 3s, but it's all about the image itself rather than true personal resonance.
 

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1.) 3w4 looks kind of like my image type rather than 4w3
2.) Freaky and eccentric would be like quirkyness? Because I have sort of taken my quirkiness and sort of made it "work" for me sometimes
3.) Does a healthy 3w4 become like 6w7?
 

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I've been having some trouble planting my heart fix. The tussle is between 3w4 and 4w3, so I was happy to see this thread.

What you are saying, essentially, @cudibloop, is that a 3w4 will naturally strive to adhere to some culturally accepted image of value whereas a 4w3 will naturally strive to adhere to a personal image of value?

How then, does one distinct between a 4 and 3 if the type 4 envisions a personal image of value that coincides with a cultural vision of value such as, for example, becoming a successful and renowned lawyer?

Do you think a type 4 has inherit feelings of inadequacy or feeling a step behind the rest of the crowd? Or can a less confident 3 feel the same way? Do you think a type 4 values/prides succeeding in the face of adversity whereas a type 3 is only annoyed by adversity? Or is this a value shared by both?

I'm sorry if I'm treating you as an ultimate authority, I know there isn't really one, but I'm curious about these things -- are there any other valuable distinctions you can offer?

I liked your answers thus far which is why I may seem like I'm prying.
 

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I had to do CBT to find my enneagram. The thing is, people don't generally know what they're motivations are. Just first understand 'why' you did something.
i.e. - 'I felt bad when I told her that'
'Why? did you feel bad'
'Because it didn't feel right'
'Why is it so bad that it didn't feel right?'
'Because it means I cannot be the person she wants me to be'
'Why is that so bad?'
etc etc.

Do a couple of these, and pretend to be a detective and find the common thread among your core motivations. First of you'll find maybe your wing and if you keep sticking with this method, and developing more questions of certain thoughts over time - then you will be able to find the even stronger type, and that's your core enneagram type. Or maybe, the first one is the core enneagram type, the more you do the better at least.

The issue with most people who try to enneagram type themselves, they can't outline their core motivations by just understanding 'which of the two possibilities' fit them like 'do you feel inadequacy for... this or that?' etc. The thing with that is, that you're just going to end up pigeonholing one side of your character (as experts that rally on youtube discuss, - all 9 types of enneagram are within everyone to a certain degree), and if you just outline one of two options, you will outline one side of your character and start believing that to be your core type when it isn't at all.

And as you know, motivations don't determine 'how you look' (that seems to be a common misconception with pretty much everyone here). You can never judge a person by the way the perform their actions. For example, everyone believes me to be an achievement seeking type 3, who 'molds himself into an ideal' - it sounds the most like me. I still believe that is MOST like me, because in my head I have a lawyer voice going on and all I want is to achieve something right now. And I've actually got confirmation that I am a lot like that from people close to me (who I agree with), but the thing is, it's just my wing, and I do those things to hide my inner feelings as a way people do not get too close to my 'fucked up internal landscape'. I do all these achievement-like things, but the truth is, they're all driven by these type four motivations. I only realized that fully, and trusted in it, once I evaluated how/why I get thoughts to do things, almost out of habit. Which oddly enough, is similar to finding 'unhelpful thoughts' through CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy), except there's much more dense evaluation and 'challenging thoughts' in CBT that you can't find in enneagram typing.

I know this because it's been a good year, I've been obsessing back and forth between each type until I actually sat down and analyzed my motivations before I applied it to the nine types. In other words, enneagram is far different from MBTI, and you can't just go 'I don't have Ne, therefore I have Ni', etc it's more 'This is why I choose to do pretty much all that I do - it is a common thread across all my thoughts; therefore I am a type four'.
 

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not to be flip, but: one of the differences between a 3w4 and a 4w3 is that a 3w4 has a job. like, an actual job. that pays money.

3w4s are far more concerned with glory and 'bona fide'ness than 4w3s, IMO. 4w3s just want to be the smartest, sexiest, and most beautiful in the room. if you're all of those things you won't need a job because someone will come rescue you and take you away from all that. then you'll (4w3) be at your best because you won't be competing with anyone- a great friend and confidant, loving and wonderful. competition makes you ugly.

3w4s want glory. they feel like frauds, and even though they hate it, they thrive on it. 4w3s never feel like frauds. Only like special-needs children sometimes.
 

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not to be flip, but: one of the differences between a 3w4 and a 4w3 is that a 3w4 has a job. like, an actual job. that pays money.

3w4s are far more concerned with glory and 'bona fide'ness than 4w3s, IMO. 4w3s just want to be the smartest, sexiest, and most beautiful in the room. if you're all of those things you won't need a job because someone will come rescue you and take you away from all that. then you'll (4w3) be at your best because you won't be competing with anyone- a great friend and confidant, loving and wonderful. competition makes you ugly.
That may or may not describe you but it certainly doesn't think it describes all 4w3s. Personally, I couldn't care less whether or not people find me sexy or beautiful. My looks have nothing to do with who I am at as a person so why would I want attention for them? Not all 4w3s limit their ambitions to being the prettiest person at a party. Not saying there aren't 4w3s who are mostly concerned with appearances but you are painting with far too broad a brush.

Also, some 4w3s actually enjoy competition and taking on challenges. If anything I think as a type 4w3s are prone to ambition - which is not to say that 4w3s are ambitious, I'm aware there are plenty of exceptions. Oh, and about 4w3s being lazy... people who have a poor work ethic have only themselves to blame. 4w3s in touch with their 3 wing should be capable of hard work, planning, and everything else that goes into success.

One more thing - as lovely as fantasies are nobody is going to rescue you. Ultimately we have to rescue ourselves and it's not fair to expect someone else to do that. Sure, being in a relationship is lovely but it's hardly the answer to all of your problems and if you expect it to be you are going to put a lot of pressure on relationship. Now, maybe you weren't referring to yourself but I think it's awfully presumptuous to assume that all 4w3s are unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.
 

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fair enough-- and you're right on all counts. i certainly didn't mean to speak for all 4w3s, but i can see why you'd think i was 'painting with broad strokes'. i'm mostly speaking for myself, but i imagine there are other 4w3s out there who can relate to what i'm saying.

it sounds like you have your act together which is awesome. i'm also a bit surprised that you're a 4w3sx which is what i am, too, and 4w3sx usually do care about how they look, or what people think. maybe you're just more evolved and i need to take your life class. i say that with only the tiniest (tiniest!) bit of snark-- i definitely only blame myself for all of the above.
 

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fair enough-- and you're right on all counts. i certainly didn't mean to speak for all 4w3s, but i can see why you'd think i was 'painting with broad strokes'. i'm mostly speaking for myself, but i imagine there are other 4w3s out there who can relate to what i'm saying.

it sounds like you have your act together which is awesome. i'm also a bit surprised that you're a 4w3sx which is what i am, too, and 4w3sx usually do care about how they look, or what people think. maybe you're just more evolved and i need to take your life class. i say that with only the tiniest (tiniest!) bit of snark-- i definitely only blame myself for all of the above.

I definitely didn't mean to give you the impression I don't care what people think about me at all. I want so badly to be a famous and celebrated writer. Scribbling away in a garret will never make me happy or even content unless I get readers and awards and the power that goes along with them. I actually wish I were less ambitious because really what are the chances I'll achieve all of that? So yeah, I'd say I'm concerned about what people think about me in my own way.

Also, I did used to care a lot more about what people thought about me in general. Then one day in my early 20s I realized I was making the choice to care. I took awhile but now when I start to worry about what someone else is thinking about me I just ask myself if the person who's potentially judging me really matters and the answer is almost always no. So I guess I have gotten healthier when it comes to that particular issue.

Oh, and in terms of caring about my looks - when I get attention for my appearance it's not about me or who I am as a person, it's just about my exterior. That's why I don't find it to be satisfying.

I think in terms of instinctual variant that the fact that I don't worry much anymore about what people think about me (unless it's someone I'm close to) might have something to do with having very little so. When I'm drawn to someone I definitely care about whether or not they like me, and if it's romantic I care about whether or not they find me attractive. It's just that that doesn't happen that often. My sx is focused on putting myself in situations I find stimulating and most of the time other people don't stimulate me so they exist outside of my bubble. But I'm very passionate about the things I find interesting, including Enneagram, which is why I may have reacted a bit stridently to your post. I hope it didn't seem like I was insulting you, I was just trying to point out there were other ways of being a 4w3.

Also, I might have gotten over this particular issue but unfortunately there are a lot of ways in which I am still unhealthy. I think that's probably true for a lot of people - they are healthy sometimes and not healthy other times.
 

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It's a matter of vanity vs envy. The 3 is more consumed by a vanity which eclipses honest self-examination. Unlike the 4 who identifies with their flaws, the 3 glosses them over. 3s identify with their idealized self, even if falling short of it. They mostly experience envy as competitive irritation with those succeeding at what they want to succeed at, feeling they are the "better" one. Depending on their Jungian type, they may pout & whine a lot in private, looking for 4ish, but their vanity will keep them from the deeper self-analysis a 4 may take. They tend to focus more on strategizing how to deal with opposing forces, which is what they see as keeping them back from realizing their potential (not their own faults). There is a greater tendency to deceive others with their image, but also themselves. They won't face that they are not quite who they think they are or how they present themselves.

The 4 is consumed by envy, meaning they constantly focus on what they lack (mainly in their personal qualities and relations with others) as compared to where others have, and they . The 4 will reveal their "pimples & warts" as way to appeal to others' sympathies, to attract a savior, or to. This can have the opposite of the desired effect and repel people. But nonetheless, there is less vanity and more of an entitlement to be "who they are", feeling justified in their faults because of their suffering, loss or void. The 4 identifies with a poor self-image then, one which is an exaggeration of their flaws, and the idealized self is some sort of fantasy they torture themselves with, always aware of how they fall short of it. It's important to note that even as the 4 may play victim, in some form they feel they deserve this, whereas a 3 may feel it a totally injustice (their vanity not allowing them to acknowledge their own ugliness). Because of the 3 wing, 4w3s tend to pursue external markers for signs they have some significance AND for signs they are different in a flawed way, which makes them prone to achieving AND self-sabotage. They may appear counter-shamful at times, like a champion of human flaws. It's like someone teaching others by example that it's okay to be flawed & human, beautiful even. They seem to appear less self-loathing than a 4w5, but far more embracing of their defects (even if this is "honest", it has the consequence of "excusing oneself" in a different way than the 3 who glosses over or deflects blame).

Integration & disintegration points are important also. Sure, sharing a wing means they share an integration/disintegration points, but considering the main integration/disintegration can help in settling on a core type.

So 3 integrates at 6 - at average levels this means they do 6ish stuff like
- deflecting blame onto others
- fear not being attractive, can be hung up on concepts of the masculine/feminine, seek status here to feel secure
- keep busy to avoid internal anxieties, although theirs will be more about shame; they don't want to face any falling short & worry that others see it, so they keep on the move
- seek allies, feeling threatened by competition, strategizing how to beat someone before they're even in a battle
When healthier they are 6-like when they
- trust their inner guidance more, in this case, living in line with their personal values & not just seeking external markers of success
- have more of a team spirit, not competing with others
- have more depth, a philosophical approach to life, instead of all image
Disintegration to 9
- psychological laziness in assessing who they are; the 9s gloss over inner & outer disharmony, the 3 glosses over gaps between their idealized self & who they actually are, by not doing much self-scrutiny
- inaction in the face of major confrontation; may just run away if their image cracks & start over somewhere else
- give up their identity to meet external criteria, especially stuff that gets them recognition. The 9 merges with others, the 3 will merge with the idealized self, losing even good parts of who they are as a sacrifice
 

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1) 4w3s are gonna be more focused on milking their f-cked up internal landscape (self-indulgence), 3w4s are going to focus on completely molding themselves into an ideal, almost unconsciously. Even when David Bowie (3w4) went through his androgynous phase, for him, it was all about the glamour of that image. Generally speaking, 3w4s want to be sexy or perfect, while 4w3s want to be whatever they feel reflects their 'essence'.

2) They can often be more freaky and eccentric with their image than other 3s, but it's all about the image itself rather than true personal resonance.
Oh sure, like 4s don't want to be sexy? Right. He's bisexual btw for what it matters, and the androgynous look was at the time still considered 'counter culture', nothing bourgeois or establishment about it, and actually never really has been since.



Changes said:
Oh yeah
Mm
Still don't know what I was waiting for
And my time was running wild
A million dead-end streets and
Every time I thought I'd got it made
It seemed the taste was not so sweet
So I turned myself to face me
But Ive never caught a glimpse
Of how the others must see the faker
Im much too fast to take that test

Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes
(turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-changes
Don't want to be a richer man
Ch-ch-ch-ch-changes
(turn and face the strain)
Ch-ch-changes
Just gonna have to be a different man
Time may change me
But I can't trace time
Sounds more 4ish to me than 3ish. Alienation is a recurring theme in his songs, or at least some undercurrent. As far as 'glamour' is concerned, I think the 4w3 'Artistocrat' is best compared with Dandyism (rather than referring to nobility), as opposed to Bohemianism of 4w5 (rather than referring to the Roma people, or gypsies).

Dandyism said:
Charles Baudelaire, in the later, "metaphysical" phase of dandyism[SUP][5][/SUP] defined the dandy as one who elevates æsthetics to a living religion,[SUP][/SUP] that the dandy's mere existence reproaches the responsible citizen of the middle class: "Dandyism in certain respects comes close to spirituality and to stoicism" and "These beings have no other status, but that of cultivating the idea of beauty in their own persons, of satisfying their passions, of feeling and thinking .... Contrary to what many thoughtless people seem to believe, dandyism is not even an excessive delight in clothes and material elegance. For the perfect dandy, these things are no more than the symbol of the aristocratic superiority of his mind."
 

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not to be flip, but: one of the differences between a 3w4 and a 4w3 is that a 3w4 has a job. like, an actual job. that pays money.
lol.

3w4s are far more concerned with glory and 'bona fide'ness than 4w3s, IMO. 4w3s just want to be the smartest, sexiest, and most beautiful in the room. if you're all of those things you won't need a job because someone will come rescue you and take you away from all that. then you'll (4w3) be at your best because you won't be competing with anyone- a great friend and confidant, loving and wonderful. competition makes you ugly.
I half agree with this. As a 4w3 yes, I have issues with being over-looked and I want people to notice me, but if someone doesn't I'm able to flippantly write them off and move on (maybe because of my head fix, idk.) I love not competing with anyone and being someone's one and only, but uh, I like having a job because I like at least having the status of being someone important and doing interesting/fun things.

3w4s want glory. they feel like frauds, and even though they hate it, they thrive on it. 4w3s never feel like frauds. Only like special-needs children sometimes.
This is true. I definitely don't feel like a fraud, just that I'm the only person in the world who feels and thinks a certain way. CAUSE I'M SPESHUL.
 

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I had one thought to possibly add to this thread. I think the idea that 4's identify with the sense of lack/frustration/their flaws/flawed sense of self v. 3's with the idealized sense of self is a solid rule of thumb, grounded in Naranjo, etc. One should however be careful and not confuse a 3 who goes through bouts of terrific insecurity with a 4. I mean sure, the classic 'fallen' 3 character is one who pads and pads and pads himself/herself until all potential for insecurity is drowned in the ultimate vanity-fed image. But I think the inherent tendency to build one's psychology around such a pattern is more at the core of 3 to me than that they ultimately are unaware of their shortcomings. I think a 3 who is in not a great phase of life (as defined by them), who is not living up to "success" as defined by their self-defeating mechanisms, may exhibit their own painful sense of "lack" which is to be distinguished from 4 psychology.

edit - I could also see such characters being branded as 6 and their behaviors might many times resemble some shadow of it.
 

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It's a matter of vanity vs envy. The 3 is more consumed by a vanity which eclipses honest self-examination. Unlike the 4 who identifies with their flaws, the 3 glosses them over. 3s identify with their idealized self, even if falling short of it. They mostly experience envy as competitive irritation with those succeeding at what they want to succeed at, feeling they are the "better" one. Depending on their Jungian type, they may pout & whine a lot in private, looking for 4ish, but their vanity will keep them from the deeper self-analysis a 4 may take. They tend to focus more on strategizing how to deal with opposing forces, which is what they see as keeping them back from realizing their potential (not their own faults). There is a greater tendency to deceive others with their image, but also themselves. They won't face that they are not quite who they think they are or how they present themselves.

The 4 is consumed by envy, meaning they constantly focus on what they lack (mainly in their personal qualities and relations with others) as compared to where others have, and they . The 4 will reveal their "pimples & warts" as way to appeal to others' sympathies, to attract a savior, or to. This can have the opposite of the desired effect and repel people. But nonetheless, there is less vanity and more of an entitlement to be "who they are", feeling justified in their faults because of their suffering, loss or void. The 4 identifies with a poor self-image then, one which is an exaggeration of their flaws, and the idealized self is some sort of fantasy they torture themselves with, always aware of how they fall short of it. It's important to note that even as the 4 may play victim, in some form they feel they deserve this, whereas a 3 may feel it a totally injustice (their vanity not allowing them to acknowledge their own ugliness). Because of the 3 wing, 4w3s tend to pursue external markers for signs they have some significance AND for signs they are different in a flawed way, which makes them prone to achieving AND self-sabotage. They may appear counter-shamful at times, like a champion of human flaws. It's like someone teaching others by example that it's okay to be flawed & human, beautiful even. They seem to appear less self-loathing than a 4w5, but far more embracing of their defects (even if this is "honest", it has the consequence of "excusing oneself" in a different way than the 3 who glosses over or deflects blame).

Integration & disintegration points are important also. Sure, sharing a wing means they share an integration/disintegration points, but considering the main integration/disintegration can help in settling on a core type.

So 3 integrates at 6 - at average levels this means they do 6ish stuff like
- deflecting blame onto others
- fear not being attractive, can be hung up on concepts of the masculine/feminine, seek status here to feel secure
- keep busy to avoid internal anxieties, although theirs will be more about shame; they don't want to face any falling short & worry that others see it, so they keep on the move
- seek allies, feeling threatened by competition, strategizing how to beat someone before they're even in a battle
When healthier they are 6-like when they
- trust their inner guidance more, in this case, living in line with their personal values & not just seeking external markers of success
- have more of a team spirit, not competing with others
- have more depth, a philosophical approach to life, instead of all image
Disintegration to 9
- psychological laziness in assessing who they are; the 9s gloss over inner & outer disharmony, the 3 glosses over gaps between their idealized self & who they actually are, by not doing much self-scrutiny
- inaction in the face of major confrontation; may just run away if their image cracks & start over somewhere else
- give up their identity to meet external criteria, especially stuff that gets them recognition. The 9 merges with others, the 3 will merge with the idealized self, losing even good parts of who they are as a sacrifice
Based on this, I wonder if 3 is my heart fix instead of 4.
 

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The simplest way is to look exclusively at core motivations. A three will always be a three, and a four will always be a four. While a wing can add a flavor or extra info, the core will be the most prominent and important part of the individual. I think the easiest way is to focus on the main type, and then think about wing later.
 

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In addition to what has been previously posted on this thread,
I think the 3w4 would be much more likely to struggle differentiating core/wing than the 4w3.
 

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"How Do You Tease Apart 3w4 from 4w3", what a lovely title! :tongue:


One more thing - as lovely as fantasies are nobody is going to rescue you. Ultimately we have to rescue ourselves and it's not fair to expect someone else to do that. Sure, being in a relationship is lovely but it's hardly the answer to all of your problems and if you expect it to be you are going to put a lot of pressure on relationship.
Great advice for immature 4's.

it sounds like you have your act together which is awesome. i'm also a bit surprised that you're a 4w3sx which is what i am, too, and 4w3sx usually do care about how they look, or what people think. maybe you're just more evolved and i need to take your life class. i say that with only the tiniest (tiniest!) bit of snark-- i definitely only blame myself for all of the above.
I'm a so/sp 4w3 and I care a whole lot about being seen as attractive, it has nothing to do with being an "evolved" person. Beats of a different drum.

I found the info in this thread very good, it confirmed what I had previously conclued about the two types.
 
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