How does an ENFP (or other F types) go to the figurative "dark side?"

3019 Views 22 Replies 17 Participants Last post by Lord Fenix Wulfheart, Nov 19, 2015

febs

Discussion Starter · Jul 27, 2015

Not that I want to myself, but several online descriptions talk about how an ENFP would be manipulative if they went to the "dark side." Not to mention that some of the most bloodthirsty killers in history such as Che Guevara were widely purported to be ENFPs themselves.

This has actually been bothering me for a while. How would ENFPs even test as Fs in the first place if they were so fucked up as people? The questions on MBTI surveys that determine whether you're an F or a T are the ones that say things like "how sympathetic are you to other people" or "do you tend to provide emotional support" or other similar questions. How do people with seemingly no conscience or regard for other human life such as Hitler (INFJ) indicate a preference for Feeling over Thinking? Would an ENFP that goes over to the "dark side" still be an "ENFP"? Such a change of personality would have to mean a sort of abandonment of one's ideals or conscience.

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Danse Macabre

· #2 · Jul 28, 2015

I never went properly dark side but there was a time in my life when I considered myself to be misanthropic. What caused it was trauma. I was abused for years and it made me hate people. I used to wonder whether or not I would actually shoot up my school. I don't think I would have ever gone through with it, but I was in a dark place.

I was burnt out, I had an existential crisis and I was so so angry at the world for treating me so badly. So yeah, that's one theory. If it had continued and I hadn't got help, I hate to think where I'd be now.

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Siriit

· #3 · Jul 28, 2015

But I don't think that being F neccessarily means that you have to be sympathetic and compassionate, it just means that your actions are largely based on your emotions and not on logical conclusion. You're not looking for the logical outcome, but for what feels good or feels right in your guts.

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skruf

· #4 · Jul 28, 2015

from my own experience its more like a defense mechanism to lie and manipulate to keep people at a distance, and then feeling guilty about it later making you even more depressed.

foreverDreaming

· #5 · Jul 30, 2015

Che Guevera was a guerilla fighter, he killed for a idea that he thought was right.

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Pianoasis

· #6 · Jul 30, 2015 (Edited)

Yea the personality tests here are terrible, that's why you got that idea.

Virtually every MBTI test on the web is terrible in fact. If you have weak F it doesn't mean you don't sympathize, empathize, hang out with groups, or any other thing that humans do, it just means you don't SEEK those things inherently.

Most use those for manipulation anyways so why bother about their intristic worth?

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Mahkara

· #7 · Jul 30, 2015

Oh, trust me, your type can be plenty evil.

Recent example. An ENFP friend of mine has recently been racing around my friendship group, essentially sleeping with all the men (then hating them - and telling me about how evil they are at length *sigh* - I think she felt they weren't getting her ~*feels*~ or specialness or something, so the correct action was to try to destroy their lives? Seems kind of extreme to have a one night stand, get irritated that he's not emotionally supportive enough, then try to poison everyone against him, but what do I know? I'm a thinker.), saying snarky things to various female friends, and insisting that she felt left out if we didn't essentially plan our entire lives around her specialness.

I doubt she *sees* herself as evil. I think in her mind, she's just demonstrating her ~*specialness*~ and her ~*feels*~. (And I guess we're all being mean by being cold and/or not respecting her feels enough? I have no freaking clue.) But her decision to make most of my friends acutely miserable for no logical reason really gets under my skin.

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Danse Macabre

· #8 · Jul 30, 2015

Mahkara said:
Oh, trust me, your type can be plenty evil.

Recent example. An ENFP friend of mine has recently been racing around my friendship group, essentially sleeping with all the men (then hating them - and telling me about how evil they are at length *sigh* - I think she felt they weren't getting her ~*feels*~ or specialness or something, so the correct action was to try to destroy their lives? Seems kind of extreme to have a one night stand, get irritated that he's not emotionally supportive enough, then try to poison everyone against him, but what do I know? I'm a thinker.), saying snarky things to various female friends, and insisting that she felt left out if we didn't essentially plan our entire lives around her specialness.

I doubt she *sees* herself as evil. I think in her mind, she's just demonstrating her ~*specialness*~ and her ~*feels*~. (And I guess we're all being mean by being cold and/or not respecting her feels enough? I have no freaking clue.) But her decision to make most of my friends acutely miserable for no logical reason really gets under my skin.

Um, I wouldn't call that evil. Immature? Yes. Selfish? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Irrational? Yes. But.... "the dark side" or evil? I don't think so...

That's not type specific either, it's pretty standard slutty bitch behaviour.

ENFP "evil" would more be master planning and manipulation.

Crome

· #9 · Jul 31, 2015

The environment is capable of convincing individuals of any type, that you have to be a certain way in order to survive. And sometimes individuals struggle between morality and survival, but most eventually choose survival. The scary thing about ENFPs is I don't think we can let go of our morality, so we build a bridge between our perceived survival needs and morality and eventually the lines blur.

Example. An ENFP grows up in a really rough neighbourhood inhabited by many people who kill and rape, and the only thing they fear is someone who is better at killing and raping than they are. Survival instincts will tell you that you need to be cruel or suffer. That ENFP isn't likely to kill or rape anyone, until they believe they are doing the right thing in killing and raping others. The keyword there is the "right" thing. Not what's necessary. What's right. A bit extreme, but you get my point.

Mahkara

· #10 · Jul 31, 2015

Danse Macabre said:
Um, I wouldn't call that evil. Immature? Yes. Selfish? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Irrational? Yes. But.... "the dark side" or evil? I don't think so...

Meh, she's basically made almost everyone I care about unhappy to server her own whims. I'm not sure how much eviler you can realistically get. (Outside of mwah hah hah, I strangle puppies for fun just before I rip candy out of babies hands. But trust me, although almost all NTs *joke* about doing that, we don't actually do so.)

Even with friends who are more mature ENFPs, I find a lot of "my feelings/whims of the moment" >>>> group harmony/long term utility/logic. Trust me, it gets very annoying.

I could certainly see how if an ENFP developed a "feel" that made no freaking sense, they could become a monster. (i.e. "I *feel* that we, as a people, have been oppressed. So let's start a major war and kill a ton of people, even though the people we're killing didn't do anything to us, it's going to tank our economy, a lot of us will probably die, etc. etc. Because ~*feels*~.")

Lestany

· #11 · Aug 1, 2015

I know that MBTI describes the F dichotomy as sympathetic and all, and usually it is, HOWEVER, we all are Fs, Ts, Ns, and Ss, (you're MBTI type only has the first two functions in it's name).

Ever met someone who seems really cold at first, then as you got to know them, discovered a warmer side underneath their hard shell? INTJs, for example, are often stereotyped as being the coldest type, but if you get to know one really well, you'll discover that they have a fiery inner core that burns hard for those that are near and dear to them. As an F type myself, I usually put my friendly face forward, but there are days where I really don't give a damn about society. I can be really cynical when it comes down to it.

But having a dark side doesn't make you a bloodthirsty killer. I wouldn't even look at type in those cases, those people are usually just insane, or close to it.

Anyways, here's a table showing the functions of all MBTI types, just to give you an idea.

https://zombiesruineverything.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/basics3.png

monalisa1710

· #12 · Oct 25, 2015

febs said:
Not that I want to myself, but several online descriptions talk about how an ENFP would be manipulative if they went to the "dark side." Not to mention that some of the most bloodthirsty killers in history such as Che Guevara were widely purported to be ENFPs themselves.

This has actually been bothering me for a while. How would ENFPs even test as Fs in the first place if they were so fucked up as people? The questions on MBTI surveys that determine whether you're an F or a T are the ones that say things like "how sympathetic are you to other people" or "do you tend to provide emotional support" or other similar questions. How do people with seemingly no conscience or regard for other human life such as Hitler (INFJ) indicate a preference for Feeling over Thinking? Would an ENFP that goes over to the "dark side" still be an "ENFP"? Such a change of personality would have to mean a sort of abandonment of one's ideals or conscience.

this "dark side" only comes up when i become unhealthily obsess with something. usually, under normal circumstance, i would try to accommodate and understand the people around me. But when i become fixated on a certain goal, i do admit that i can become quite manipulative (because i would start to think of myself before others). but this fixation usually goes away once i achieve my goal and then i'll come to realise just how stupid i was being (because i would then realise that the end goal wasn't worth all the trouble i went through just to achieve it)

LibertyPrime

· #13 · Oct 25, 2015 (Edited)

Pianoasis said:
Yea the personality tests here are terrible, that's why you got that idea.

Virtually every MBTI test on the web is terrible in fact. If you have weak F it doesn't mean you don't sympathize, empathize, hang out with groups, or any other thing that humans do, it just means you don't SEEK those things inherently.

Most use those for manipulation anyways so why bother about their intristic worth?

I agree, tests can be crap.

Being a feeler mostly revolves around making judgments and taking action based on how object and subject relate to one another and how objects relate to each other in a social sense. Virtually all ppl with F preference have strong F in general, which means even ENFPs have strong Fe for example.

Overall feelers are more capable of evaluating these relationships such as how the feeler itself relates to everything around it and how everything relates to the feeler and to themselves. Something like that can be misused if its coupled with bad intention, lack of guilt and so on. I can see it ending in toying with people. Psychopaths are in general said to be very good at all of the above mentioned for example.

Nobody said feelers need to be "of the light side".

ReverieInSight

· #14 · Oct 26, 2015

I've seen a list somewhere - it was a study about MBTI types, that showed which type is most likely to be a psychopath (or develop other mental diseases). Can't find it right now, but ENTP was the highest, and ENFP the second highest. I think everyone can make up their own reasoning as to why ENTPs are the highest (just look at their "how to manipulate people"-thread) - self-explanatory) - while the reason for the ENFP to go mental must be completely different, given they use Fi and have very strong core values. I also think they will only go crazy when their core values change. And before that happens, something very traumatic must happen.

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sunshinemarie23

· #15 · Nov 15, 2015

The "dark side" thing reminds me of Anakin Skywalker. He started out good (although the jury is still out about whether or not he was actually an ENFP) and then was brainwashed into thinking that he was doing good when he was actually doing evil.
I personally have skipped along the road to the "dark side" quite cheerfully a few times. But I only did it when people I love were intentionally and cruelly hurt by other people.
For example: my own mother, (who SAYS she's an ISFP, although I suspect she's ISFJ) once intentionally lured one of my very dearest friends to dinner with her on the pretext of helping plan my wedding shower. Mommy Dearest then verbally attacked and abused my friend because she was jealous of our friendship. She reduced her to tears in public, at a restaurant, and then stiffed her with the bill, refused to help with the shower AT ALL, and walked out.
My friend was so anguished that it took her 45 minutes to call me and explain what had happened. By that time my mom had already called, screaming about how SHE is my mother and that she refuses to have anything to do with my friend. We had to have POLICE OFFICERS on STANDBY at my shower and wedding reception just in case my mom went apeshit again!
So when I had heard from both sides and processed everything emotionally (ENFPs you feel me, right?), I went thru the incident as logically as possible in my mind and came to the conclusion that my mom was freaking crazy and lying through her teeth. I took steps to inform her that, 1. if she EVER pulled a stunt like that again and caused me any more anxiety/grief prior to my wedding, she would be disinvited immediately;
and 2. she was never, ever again to speak to my friend in such a manner for the rest of her natural life. If she did so there would be negative and permanent consequences on our personal mother-daughter relationship.
She probably cried about the whole thing, and sometimes I feel bad for the way I handled it. But it's over with and done, and I can't change anything I did in the past. And nobody dicks with my loved ones- even other loved ones.

I think that ENFPs who have been raised in general security and love can't really understand their potential for darkness. In my opinion it takes some sort of trauma to get an ENFP to consider the "dark side". In my case I went through a lot of emotional and mental abuse as a child and a teenager, up until I was 20 or so, at the hands of my mother (mostly her) and siblings. Without that I am confident that I wouldn't consider darkness an option.

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Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar

· #16 · Nov 15, 2015

febs said:
Not that I want to myself, but several online descriptions talk about how an ENFP would be manipulative if they went to the "dark side." Not to mention that some of the most bloodthirsty killers in history such as Che Guevara were widely purported to be ENFPs themselves.

This has actually been bothering me for a while. How would ENFPs even test as Fs in the first place if they were so fucked up as people? The questions on MBTI surveys that determine whether you're an F or a T are the ones that say things like "how sympathetic are you to other people" or "do you tend to provide emotional support" or other similar questions. How do people with seemingly no conscience or regard for other human life such as Hitler (INFJ) indicate a preference for Feeling over Thinking? Would an ENFP that goes over to the "dark side" still be an "ENFP"? Such a change of personality would have to mean a sort of abandonment of one's ideals or conscience.

Che Guevera was was an INFJ.

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar

· #17 · Nov 16, 2015

Danse Macabre said:
I never went properly dark side but there was a time in my life when I considered myself to be misanthropic. What caused it was trauma. I was abused for years and it made me hate people. I used to wonder whether or not I would actually shoot up my school. I don't think I would have ever gone through with it, but I was in a dark place.

I was burnt out, I had an existential crisis and I was so so angry at the world for treating me so badly. So yeah, that's one theory. If it had continued and I hadn't got help, I hate to think where I'd be now.

Same here. It caused more health problems which later caused people to mistreat me and discriminate me and lately try to starve me. Though I'm more xenophobic, than misanthropic. I met plenty of okay people. It's the wicked other that I hate.
Also, there's an effect of gathering increased information about people and finding new and new alien depravities and alien threats.

Reactions: 1

Wiz

· #18 · Nov 17, 2015

Living with two ISTJ parents and sister + grandad ESFJ + girlfriend ISFJ + ESTJ boss made me crazy and mean. Still semi involved in that situation but I handle it a lot better now. I just ended up hating people. All the people in my life that meant something to me just wanted to control me and fit me into their view of a healthy person made a huge negative impact on my self esteem and made me very critical and suspicious of people in general.

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kittenklyn

· #19 · Nov 18, 2015

My brother is an ENFP and he is literally the most manipulative person that I know of. He uses people like tools to get what he wants from them, and as soon as things don't go his way, oh man, he shows a side like the devil himself. As an INFJ, I find his behavior unforgivable. He and I don't talk much, unless we are at a family gathering, but that's rare.

My sister is also an ENFP, and she is quite the manipulator herself. I noticed this when I was still living with my parents- she could twist them up like toys and get what she wanted. This also frustrated me a lot, though sue never pulled that on me. Most likely because she saw the way I respond to to our brother.

The only ENFP's I know are able to manipulate like masterminds. I'd say they could use this the way my brother does easily. Though he also has a lot of drugs in his history, so that might have influenced him.

Not saying that all ENFP types are like this, just type ones that I know of.

Arzazar Szubrasznikarazar

· #20 · Nov 18, 2015

kittenklyn said:
The only ENFP's I know are able to manipulate like masterminds.

How do they do that?

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