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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Having known and dated more than just a handful of otherwise wonderful and wise INFJ ladies, I simply have to ask this question.

One and all they reserve a marked incapacity for dealing with casual social encounters when random people are there or a set of people they feel are perhaps draining.

Now I know I have loaded the question, but, the way I see it, this really is a severe limit. It is not just wise choice about how one spends one's time. Or if it is then it goes too far to be healthy. Why do I say this? Because it's healthy to go outside your comfort zone and to do so repeatedly. It doesn't mean you spend the most time there or that you count that as quality time or that you don't leave if things get irritating. But it does mean that you cannot hide behind the 'that's not my crowd' excuse when the crowd we are talking about is an otherwise mixed bag of fairly healthy people (not extreme in any particular disfunction). That is my contention.

The hiding and turning away is not healthy for the INFJ either in my opinion. But the ones I know still refuse to mingle, even passingly, and as such are the awkward woman that can't go anywhere normal. In truth I can deal with it, but, HAVING TO DEAL WITH IT, and all the time, is taxing and tedious. In truth it is EXACTLY like dealing with a handicapped person of any type. You lovingly work with them, taking it in stride, but, when you review your time spent, you notice so much more energy spent dealing with their problems than with yours and you just know, equity is not a part of that equation.

This is me stating for the record that equity should be a part of any loving equation. The equity provided by the handicapped is the simple and clean awareness on both sides of the table that the situation exists. That actually includes a de-facto desire that it NOT BE SO. That if anything were to arise that might help or heal or allow practice outside the scope of the limitation, that it be tried and tried again.

Thoughts?
 

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It sounds like INFJs are just not your type. No INFJ will be happy with someone who considers their natural social reserve to be something abnormal in need of fixing. Trying to push an introvert out of their comfort zone is disrespecting who they are. Maybe you should read the book, "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking".

Rather than trying to change INFJs, maybe you could try being more of an introvert. :tongue:
 

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A remarkably bold opening gambit in chat up line topics, certainly.

:)

"HAVING TO DEAL WITH IT, and all the time, is taxing and tedious."

As a wiser man than me once said, "it's healthy to go outside your comfort zone and to do so repeatedly".
 

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If you're talking in terms of equity then encourage them to see a therapist, or become less involved, or leave. (Contrary to popular belief, you absolutely can change a person, but it's not necessarily equitable when you could choose a healthy one instead)

Also work on your issues and choose people that you won't try to change next time. People gravitate towards those of a similar level of mental health.
 

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Having known and dated more than just a handful of otherwise wonderful and wise INFJ ladies, I simply have to ask this question.

One and all they reserve a marked incapacity for dealing with casual social encounters when random people are there or a set of people they feel are perhaps draining.

Now I know I have loaded the question, but, the way I see it, this really is a severe limit. It is not just wise choice about how one spends one's time. Or if it is then it goes too far to be healthy. Why do I say this? Because it's healthy to go outside your comfort zone and to do so repeatedly. It doesn't mean you spend the most time there or that you count that as quality time or that you don't leave if things get irritating. But it does mean that you cannot hide behind the 'that's not my crowd' excuse when the crowd we are talking about is an otherwise mixed bag of fairly healthy people (not extreme in any particular disfunction). That is my contention.

The hiding and turning away is not healthy for the INFJ either in my opinion. But the ones I know still refuse to mingle, even passingly, and as such are the awkward woman that can't go anywhere normal. In truth I can deal with it, but, HAVING TO DEAL WITH IT, and all the time, is taxing and tedious. In truth it is EXACTLY like dealing with a handicapped person of any type. You lovingly work with them, taking it in stride, but, when you review your time spent, you notice so much more energy spent dealing with their problems than with yours and you just know, equity is not a part of that equation.

This is me stating for the record that equity should be a part of any loving equation. The equity provided by the handicapped is the simple and clean awareness on both sides of the table that the situation exists. That actually includes a de-facto desire that it NOT BE SO. That if anything were to arise that might help or heal or allow practice outside the scope of the limitation, that it be tried and tried again.

Thoughts?
Um?

Sorry to point this out, but I'm wondering if you mean equality being a part of a "loving equation" instead of "equity"?

If you do mean equity, then I'm unsure what you are saying.

Equity (finance) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[An equity investment generally refers to the buying and holding of shares of stock on a stock market by individuals and firms in anticipation of income from dividends and capital gains, as the value of the stock rises. Typically equity holders receive voting rights, meaning that they can vote on candidates for the board of directors (shown on a diversification of the fund(s)...]

Otherwise, I can see what you are saying about social constraints. It is a little odd because I don't know many INFJs personally so I can only speak for myself. Really I thought INFJs were more social than that, but you must know better I guess.

Very early on I had Avoidant Personality Disorder which is much like what you are describing and other people pushing me didn't work for me. In fact, it made it worse. In my own time I went out and actually timed my interaction with people and left right away and that did help me a lot toward exploring the outside world and meeting people a little bit at a time until I felt more comfortable doing so.

I think it is very hard for an most extroverts to understand the limitations of some introverts. If I'm with an extrovert, then normally I'm more drained than I am on my own because there is more time spent communicating with that person and not recharging like I would if I was single or with another introvert (no matter how interesting the conversations were). It usually ends up me not wanting to hardly go out when the extrovert wants to go out after a long day of not having any time to myself.

The time it takes me to decompress is probably longer than most and I end up feeling on edge without that time to think so as not to become more muddle headed than I normally am. Also, it takes me a lot longer to fall asleep without a couple of hours of silence before going to bed.

It certainly sounded draining to you too.
 

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People like that have adapted that as a defence mechanism. You probably won't be able to convince someone to abandon something that makes the world feel safe or hospitable, because you don't like having to deal with it. You may still care about their well being, but it doesn't matter, it's about them and not you. No one wants to feel like they would be more acceptable if they'd just change x or y. Leave these poor women alone and leave the helping to a counsellor or professional.
 

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I only feel comfortable speaking for myself, but group interactions just aren't a great place for me. Being very selective about who I spend my time with seems to be the best way to keep my sanity. It takes me an extremely long time to actually become comfortable with someone enough to feel like myself around them. With this in mind, I know I won't come off well in a group of people with less stringent requirements in their social interactions. I'm not myself in groups. And for me, I'd rather spend less time trying to force myself into situations that leave me feeling less than.

I often wonder what it might be like to be an extrovert. Do you feel most yourself when you're in a group, interacting with many people?

I think that what you might see as an issue needing to be dealt with, or a limitation of character, is really just someone choosing not to neglect a deeply rooted part of themselves. Think of putting a solitary animal by nature into a group in the wild.

As an INFJ, I'm seeking deep connections. Many menial relationships just don't do.
 

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Are you sure they are INFJs? Sounds like INFPs to me.

Also, age may have something to do with social reticence. If they are high school or college girls they may feel awkward in a bar full of strangers.

Like all the wise INFJ ladies above me, I can only speak for myself.

I have social anxiety but only before I enter the room. Once I get myself situated, I can be quite chatty. Fe would take over to make me want to find out about ppl.

It also depends on the crowd though. If there are too many extroverts, I get tired easily. They are energy vampires and too jumpy for conversation more than jokes, slapsticks, one liners, or chit chats. It is in such a gathering that I may look evidently uncomfortable.

INFJs are not high energy socially. We are not the one leading the conga line but we might join the conga line when the vibe is right.
 

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This sounds like social phobia and/or AvPD, not an MBTI-related problem. I have a difficult time getting involved in groups of people as well, especially spontaneously. The only advice I have is to try to direct the group's conversation to a topic they understand so that they're confident in their contributions to the discussion. Pushing them will worsen the anxiety.

If you don't want to deal with an introvert's social preferences, perhaps you shouldn't date introverts.
 

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What gets me chatting amongst a group of people is a nice discussion about things that I am deeply passionate about. If somebody brings up politics, religion, social justice, what is the meaning of life, education... then you cannot shut me up. But if you're in a group of people who want to talk about what they did that day or what toy they recently bought or how is the weather, I'm going to start daydreaming.
 

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Relationships are like farming; you have limited resources and something to grow and manage.
If you want 10 thousand bean sprouts, sure, go ahead and plant them and you can probably get all of them in your garden. But if you want a number of big fat pumpkins, perhaps, planting 10 thousand is not only impossible, but by trying so yields none. And who can say one should want many bean sprouts over 10 or so well-grown pumpkins.

Particularly in your post, you've advocated for unfiltered and broadened interpersonal relationships, and this may work for you, I can see. But in good conscience, I cannot say that it works for everyone because for a dedicated and perfection-seeking type of people, this will surely backfire on them.

For example, if you don't tend to get into deeper relationships, sure, go ahead and have 10 thousand friends. Don't go to their weddings, don't go to their major life events, just don't get involved in general, and you can still successfully manage all of them with occasional light, casual interactions.

But.., what if you want to get involved, and more importantly, what if it's in your nature to get involved deeply? Then, can you say that this person will successfully manage that many people while being that much involved for each? I don't think so. In the end, this person will be immensely unhappy that his/she has harvested no meaningful relationship out of the given 10 thousand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
To the folks who point out quite correctly that I can date other women with less limitations, yes you are right, but, for some reason the ones I find otherwise most attractive are these types of INFJs. It's my curse.

And I am the type of person that can handle BOTH deep intimate conversations and many light social ones. I have weakness in neither way. I want a partner that can do this also. I'd say I am 70% intimate and 20% social. So it's not like I am demanding an event coordinator for a partner. BUt it's the rather staggering number of boundaries and absolute NOs that I get related to social gatherings that leaves me not only cold but actually rather angry. It's just too damn limited. The search continues.

Thanks everyone for the perspective. I know a great partner for me is out there somewhere. Current dating set includes several ENFJs. They never seem to really match as well as the INFJs though, at least so far. Have you ever had the suspicion you needed two lovers/partners? One to be an energy trooper and hang at social gatherings and another to handle long talks and deep intimacy? Sometimes ...
 

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If you like to be with an INFJ, then be with one - but speaking from experience, I don't personally appreciate it when someone tries to change me or acts like I need fixing. We are the way we are, perhaps you'd be suited to being with someone a bit more extroverted.

You can't make someone be something they aren't, you should just be honest to yourself and them and find someone more suited to you.
 

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To the folks who point out quite correctly that I can date other women with less limitations, yes you are right, but, for some reason the ones I find otherwise most attractive are these types of INFJs. It's my curse.

And I am the type of person that can handle BOTH deep intimate conversations and many light social ones. I have weakness in neither way. I want a partner that can do this also. I'd say I am 70% intimate and 20% social. So it's not like I am demanding an event coordinator for a partner. BUt it's the rather staggering number of boundaries and absolute NOs that I get related to social gatherings that leaves me not only cold but actually rather angry. It's just too damn limited. The search continues.

Thanks everyone for the perspective. I know a great partner for me is out there somewhere. Current dating set includes several ENFJs. They never seem to really match as well as the INFJs though, at least so far. Have you ever had the suspicion you needed two lovers/partners? One to be an energy trooper and hang at social gatherings and another to handle long talks and deep intimacy? Sometimes ...
This is why I found dating a few people at the same time strangely fulfilling on the one hand, yet causing me confusion because I couldn't settle for just one of them as each person had their own sets of good and bad qualities.
 

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Having known and dated more than just a handful of otherwise wonderful and wise INFJ ladies, I simply have to ask this question.

One and all they reserve a marked incapacity for dealing with casual social encounters when random people are there or a set of people they feel are perhaps draining.

Now I know I have loaded the question, but, the way I see it, this really is a severe limit. It is not just wise choice about how one spends one's time. Or if it is then it goes too far to be healthy. Why do I say this? Because it's healthy to go outside your comfort zone and to do so repeatedly. It doesn't mean you spend the most time there or that you count that as quality time or that you don't leave if things get irritating. But it does mean that you cannot hide behind the 'that's not my crowd' excuse when the crowd we are talking about is an otherwise mixed bag of fairly healthy people (not extreme in any particular disfunction). That is my contention.

The hiding and turning away is not healthy for the INFJ either in my opinion. But the ones I know still refuse to mingle, even passingly, and as such are the awkward woman that can't go anywhere normal. In truth I can deal with it, but, HAVING TO DEAL WITH IT, and all the time, is taxing and tedious. In truth it is EXACTLY like dealing with a handicapped person of any type. You lovingly work with them, taking it in stride, but, when you review your time spent, you notice so much more energy spent dealing with their problems than with yours and you just know, equity is not a part of that equation.

This is me stating for the record that equity should be a part of any loving equation. The equity provided by the handicapped is the simple and clean awareness on both sides of the table that the situation exists. That actually includes a de-facto desire that it NOT BE SO. That if anything were to arise that might help or heal or allow practice outside the scope of the limitation, that it be tried and tried again.

Thoughts?
LOL this is ridiculous. That’s like me saying to you: spend a month alone, don’t contact anyone. What’s wrong with you? CHANGE. Ugh. You suck.
I don’t see you trying to understand INFJ’s, I see you wishing they were different.
If you really wish to have INFJ’s in your life, and if you TRULY seek to accept and understand them (which I am not getting from your post, and no I’m not offended because I don’t even know you, random internet poster)….Look up what makes introverts special. Look up how intuition can be such a gift. Look up how people who actually understand and acknowledge feeling can benefit the world and the living beings in it. Don’t try to change any INFJ’s, PLEASE. The world is messed up and hard enough as it is, and they are such a sparkling, wonderful minority. Try to be more like them, if you ask me.
 

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Or if it is then it goes too far to be healthy. Why do I say this? Because it's healthy to go outside your comfort zone and to do so repeatedly. It doesn't mean you spend the most time there or that you count that as quality time or that you don't leave if things get irritating. But it does mean that you cannot hide behind the 'that's not my crowd' excuse when the crowd we are talking about is an otherwise mixed bag of fairly healthy people (not extreme in any particular disfunction). That is my contention.
Hmm, I don't think you're being fully understanding of the concept of INFJ. We are introverts. That means that excessive social interactions are unhealthy for us. It does not matter what you or society considers healthy.

Hey, broccoli is healthy, but I don't feed it to my cats, it's not healthy for them, they need a different diet. Same with INFJ.

Would you be comfortable with not seeing people and being drawn and not interacting with people? Or would you feel sad and stressed? Exactly what an INFJ feels like, but in the opposite situation, if you care to understand.

And who says INFJ don't want to be outside their comfort zones? We do, just that we like it one at a time and make sure you give us plenty of time to adjust and recover. We don't need ridiculous amounts of excitement on the outside world, we have tons of excitement going on in our inner worlds, there simply is not enough room for that much excitement.

If I'd be dating someone one extroverted, I'd enjoy time outside, with her friends, but really, let's not do it every day now. For every day you need to get out, I feel the need for two days to recover. If that's not acceptable, I rather not get involved, it's going to get messy soon.
 

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What you could do is also just accept that the INFJ wants different things than you sometimes. You do you, let them do them.

Communicate the problems you have, not by putting blame on anyone but just stating "I feel ____ when you don't want to ____, because it's my favorite." etc...

Someone coming to me like that would be MUCH appreciated, because it opens the dialogue for negotiations for future efforts to push outside of comfort zones for BOTH parties.

Maybe that's just me, in my imaginary relationship with an extrovert.
 

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You want to make an extrovert out of an introvert and that isn't going to happen. We don't like surprises or spontaneous social interactions, we like things to be planned out. We'll go outside our comfort zone and we'll even enjoy it as long as we've had some warning. So when you're dating an INFJ don't expect them to be cool with talking to a random group of strangers or changing plans.

Second thing you should know about introverts is we have limited social energy. When we run into a group of draining people, (typically extroverted sensors) that limited social energy burns EVEN faster. So you might get 1-2 hours of us being around them before all we want to do run away so we can recharge. Even on our best day we might only have enough energy to be active for 4-5 hours. So guard your INFJ from energy vampires, if you do run into some friends while you're out introduce your introvert to them. That way they will at least gain some measure of comfort and not feel extremely awkward. We're not "Handicapped" as you're thinking, we just don't handle socializing like an extrovert does.

Last point, when we're out of social energy we feel very tired, irritated and even stressed if we cannot leave the situation. Once we're drained a group of loud energetic people are the most irritating people in the world. As the extrovert you should watch for signs of the introvert growing tired and know when it's time to get them to a quiet place. Yes, that might mean leaving the party early or you might not get to do all the plans you made for that night. If you're dating an introvert plan out your days to have EQUAL parts Extroverted and Introverted. You'll have a much healthier relationship and a MUCH happier introvert.

Until you learn to interact with introverts I suggest you stay away from them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
LOL this is ridiculous.That’s like me saying to you: spend a month alone, don’t contact anyone.What’s wrong with you? CHANGE. Ugh. You suck.
I don’t see you trying to understand INFJ’s, I see you wishing they were different.
If you really wish to have INFJ’s in your life, and if you TRULY seek to accept and understand them (which I am not getting from your post, and no I’m not offended because I don’t even know you, random internet poster)….Look up what makes introverts special. Look up how intuition can be such a gift.Look up how people who actually understand and acknowledge feeling can benefit the world and the living beings in it. Don’t try to change any INFJ’s, PLEASE.The world is messed up and hard enough as it is, and they are such a sparkling, wonderful minority. Try to be more like them, if you ask me.
It's great that you had this response. Frankly, I expected more like it. But INFJ's are nothing if not surprisingly understanding. It's something I like about them immensely. I am perhaps a bit strong-willed and confrontational even for an ENTP, but, extremely casual in manner as well. So, INFJs are drawn to it, the reverse of their soft outer, determined as stone inner world.

BUT

This is my contention. A person needs to WANT to and actively pursue growth. Maturity and wisdom require it. I fancy myself a seeker on that path, the path of wisdom. As such, I am unwilling to refute out of hand anything that seems like wisdom as presented. I have to try it on and apply sort of the scientific method of wisdom to it.

Just like the ego trance motivational areas of the enneagram are detrimental to growth and wisdom, the fixed mental patterns of the MBTI are the same. The goal is actually to sidestep these limitations and grow into a more complete, less limited, less patterned one way type of person. There is categorically NO effort here to deny any pattern, including INFJs their particular wonderfulness. But there is a persistent friendly demand to push oneself and grow.

Being able to exceed your limits and deal effectively with a partner's friends is actually just a basic requirement of a functional relationship. I am not saying all the time and I am not saying she would have to deal with truly destructive or disingenuous friends. But I AM saying she has to lower her threshold of just saying no. I find most INFJs set that bar ARBITRARILY too high. Its a defense mechanism and its not healthy. It's beyond the need and deeply into the want. It's beyond protection and into defensiveness. It's beyond wisdom and into anti-wisdom. That is only my assertion and only with the INFJs I have met and dated.

It does indeed seem like with some of the responses here, there are INFJs out there more wisely built and more happily able to take on normal styles of interaction. I can and do make allowances for the women I love (often too many and too much which is part of the point here). Here is a line I have heard from every INFJ I dated: 'I'm sorry you have to deal with all my requirements. I know you are amazing that way. Next time we will do XXXX your way.' But although that next time does come and there may indeed be a my way allowance within it, it still feels strained, does not go well in general, and in the end is easier just to give up and let the limits stay in place.

I cannot define that as a empathetic and loving situation. The attempt at growth is missing or a minimal fiat at best. Lip service rather than effort. I think maybe this post in response shows this thread MUCH more of how I really feel about it. As I went through it the feeling I get when dealing with the INFJs came up and was with me. The shake your head sadness of a lack of true connection even with someone so amazing - and poignantly - that lack is one sided - from them to me.
 
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